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Time for a rebuild?

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by crazybird1, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    JBJ has 2 years of control left, right? There's no guarantee he signs here. He is a streaky mediocrity at the plate and All world defender. That might be a case where someone else overvalues him and you get nothing.

    Stanton has a 10 year contract that might even be a tad below market right now.
     
  2. oumbi

    oumbi Member SoSH Member

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    778
    Actually, that is very much how SoSH commonly operates. I don't see how anyone who has spent more than two days here would not have seen that. And this place is MUCH nicer now than before.

    The real problem is your original post was poorly thought out and lacked any sort of examples or details. Please suck it up and learn to post better.

    Thank you.
     
  3. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    25,163
    Uh, yeah, it appears his name is Christian Vazquez. They are not in the market for a catcher.
     
  4. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    No one is concerned about Stanton's contract right now. If Stanton was available on his current contract for ... jesus, even up to 4 or 5 years, he would be incredibly valuable. But you know this, so why did you even make that reference?
     
  5. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    10,964
    Ok. I like him too. So how are they closing the gap between the 87 win team they'd be if you normalized their extra inning record even a little and the 100 win team they need to be to compete with the Indians and Astros?
     
  6. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    I meant that Stanton's whole contract is probably a little below what he'd get on the free agent market this winter.

     
  7. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    By getting even average offensive performances by nearly all of their players. They had everyone have off years this year. Getting even, say, halfway back to the numbers most of these guys put up last year would pretty much do the trick.

    Also, Porcello might not ever go 22-4 again, but he's better than 11-17.
     
  8. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I can't argue with that, because I think it's plausible. I think it's plausible that someone would give him that contract.

    But I would argue the case, were that to happen, the team that did give out that contract would be making a terrible mistake by literally crushing their future ability to contend and I would hate if it was the Red Sox who did so.
     
  9. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    The Red Sox are paid $35 million a year to Pablo Sandoval, Rusnay Castillo, and Allen Craig over the past 2 years for about 100 awful major league plate appearances and won division titles both seasons.

    I think they could be just fine with Stanton, even if he dropped off a cliff to that same extent over the second half of the contract.

    Or we can pretend that Jackie Bradley and Xander Bogaerts will be significantly better than their 3 year averages over the next 2 years. Which is what they'd have to be in order to come close to matching their peers on the Astros.
     
  10. Mueller's Twin Grannies

    Mueller's Twin Grannies Member SoSH Member

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    2,282
    Do the Red Sox need to make some roster adjustments? Absolutely, regardless of how the rest of their postseason run goes. But to trade away their best, young, cost-controlled players for veterans for one or two years of playoff runs is one of the dumbest ideas in the world. In order to get on the same level as the Yankees, Astros, or Indians, the plan would be to do what they've done: trade away bad contracts for lottery tickets and draft well. The best way they can improve quickly is to start dumping under-performing veterans on expiring deals and maybe trading one valuable piece that might be a bit redundant for the hope of getting some young players back who might blossom into eventual ML replacements. Losing Hanley this off-season and finding a new DH or just using the position like everyone else in baseball does will be a good start. Porcello isn't going to have as bad a season next year as he did this year and I believe the word will come out once the season is over that he's had some nagging injury that will partially explain his struggles. Doug Fister is a likely candidate for a 5th spot/swingman role on the cheap but I think he's likely earned himself a two-year deal somewhere else.

    Dustin Pedroia also looms as someone who it might be time to move on from or to drastically lighten the workload of, having him platoon 2B or DH (which might be best for him in the long run) with someone like Marrero. Some of the bullpen will be turned over because it always is. Steven Wright might come back healthy, Blake Swihart will have had a full year to get better and might see some AFL time if he's eligible, and some of their better prospects will be a step closer to being ready. The team may take a step back next season and barely contend for a Wild Card spot, maybe for more than one year, but will, ideally, then become perennial contenders for awhile. If they do everything you suggested, it will be years before they are more than a .500 team.
     
  11. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    13,437
    You used an example of terrible mistakes to justify a what I'm saying will be a terrible mistake.

    Thanks, I guess?
     
  12. Beomoose

    Beomoose Member SoSH Member

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    I blame Farrell for this thread.
     
  13. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Dustin Pedroia played in 105 games this year. How much more workload should we be drastically lightening?
     
  14. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    Is he? His 2017 was a lot like his 2015. Why should we not expect a repeat?
     
  15. glasspusher

    glasspusher Member SoSH Member

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    Total lack of leadership on his part.
     
  16. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    The problem is that JBJ and X are no longer cost controlled. They've got 2 years to free agency. The time has come to decide if you want to lock them up or risk losing them to free agency.

    That risk is fine if you think you're a World Series contender. But, I agree with the opening post in one sense, anyone ranking the Sox ahead of the Yankees, Astros, or Indians (or Nats or Cubs) in their 2018 power rankings isn't thinking clearly.
     
  17. Pozo the Clown

    Pozo the Clown lurker

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    234
    I reserve my comments for the seemingly inevitable "Sale Rhymes With Fail" thread.
     
  18. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    His 2015 was actually one bad half followed by a very good half. He didn't really have that good run this year. If 2015 is supposed to be indicative of his abilities going forward, why not the more recent 2016?
     
  19. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    10,964
    With somebody like him, I'd do a 3-2-1 weighted average of his xFIP over the past 3 years and start there.
     
  20. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    Why not his last 4 or 5? I mean, at some point you have to look at the entire body of work. They made an adjustment with him around August of 2015 and he was studly for the next 1 1/2 seasons. He wasn't this year, but there's a lot of promise there.
     
  21. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    It looks as if the Yankees might need to rebuild too so there will be competition with these potential trades.
     
  22. kelpapa

    kelpapa Member SoSH Member

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    I only skimmed the first page, so feel free to ignore this if it's already been said, but hahahahahaha.
     
  23. pk1627

    pk1627 Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I blame Farrell for the Yankees losing
     
  24. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Bradley has three years.
     
  25. richgedman'sghost

    richgedman'sghost Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Hopefully you are not serious. Judge is under Yankee control for the next 6 years. You do realize the trade deadline for players to be eligible for the playoffs is August 31, right? Why would the Yankees ever let him go to the Sox? I think the Red Sox should trade for that guy Kershaw on the Dodgers...He seems pretty good. How bout that guy Kluber? He's decent or so I've heard... anyway this whole thread has jumped the shark...
    I'm obviously being sarcastic folks..
     
  26. pokey_reese

    pokey_reese Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    10,713
    Rebuilds are for teams that overachieved with a bunch of aging vets. This team has a ton of young guys in pre-arg or are years. Rebuild doesn't make a ton of sense. The issue is more that Price, a very expensive guy meant to be a staple of the rotation, disappeared this year and is still a HUGE question mark for next year. Whatever they did for Tanaka, they should be doing for him. If Beni and Devers are a year older, and Betts lands somewhere between the last two years, and Price comes back, this could be a 100-win team.
     
  27. pokey_reese

    pokey_reese Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    10,713
    Sarcasm meters do tend to go on the fritz right after a playoff loss, but you should probably re-calibrate. This post, and the original post suggesting trading for him, were almost certainly not to be taken seriously.
     
  28. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    13,725
  29. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Yeah. Sure.
     
  30. canyoubelieveit

    canyoubelieveit Member SoSH Member

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    Perfect! SoSH threads are worth reading even when they are very much not worth reading.
     
  31. Manramsclan

    Manramsclan Member SoSH Member

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    This is begging for a sacrifice.

    A 'rebuild' for a team with cost-controlled stars (Sale, Mookie), a 20 year old rookie who shows great promise, another rookie who went 20/20 and would be a runaway ROY in any other year, and a 25 year old SS who with a down year is still top 10 in WAR in all of MLB at the position.

    Yeah, these guys are over the hill, let's just cash them in for prospects.

    This is a core you ADD to in order to close the gap, and since the luxury tax penalty has been reset, that is just what they will do.

    This window is WIDE open for at least 2 more seasons if not more.

    Lock this thread.
     
  32. Sox and Rocks

    Sox and Rocks Member SoSH Member

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    4,212
    Love this, and its oddly fitting, too
     
  33. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    22,240
    I'd allow the thread to drift in the direction P91 took it. Retool -- where, who, how much?
     
  34. bluefenderstrat

    bluefenderstrat Member SoSH Member

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    1,369
    It’s too late. We need to start thinking about 2022.
     
  35. timlinin8th

    timlinin8th Member SoSH Member

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    1,053
    [​IMG]
     
  36. BroodsSexton

    BroodsSexton Member SoSH Member

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    I agree with rebuilding. They should aim for 3-1.
     
  37. Ferm Sheller

    Ferm Sheller Member SoSH Member

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    What would it take to get the 2013 team back together again? I'd put them up against anybody.
     
  38. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    The last CBA changed the LT system. Resetting the tax hit rate is no longer a justification for going right back over.

    Going over while signing top talent will also cost them significant draft and IFA capital. If they were sitting on a top farm system this winter, that might be a shrewd move. With a bottom 5-ish farm, however, it would be a terrible decision.
     
  39. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    3,490
    A time machine?
     
  40. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    3,490
    The draft pick penalty only applies to teams that go $40 million over the threshold.
     
  41. DanoooME

    DanoooME Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    What happens if Stanton goes back to his previously perennially injured self? He set a career high in games played with 159. In the previous 7 seasons, he averaged 104 games played (I threw out his rookie year since I don't know if he was in the majors all year). Would you be happy with 2/3rds Stanton and 1/3rd <insert mediocre 4th OF here>? I doubt it.

    I don't think you understand the meaning of "cost controlled". They are automatically cost controlled via the arbitration process until free agency.

    And who cares about 2018 power rankings anyway? Teams get the injury bug, slump and fall apart all the time. So they aren't the favorites? Big deal. It doesn't mean they aren't a contender and that's all that is necessary.

    Bingo. This team needs tweaks, not a gutting.
     
  42. Clears Cleaver

    Clears Cleaver Lil' Bill SoSH Member

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    The bigger problem here is that the league is set up to have three super teams the next few years. The Red Sox might be good, but they are not going to be better than Cleveland, Houston and NYY regardless of what they do. Given DD emptied the farm to get up to this point, the likelihood of being a WS competitor are slim the next couple years

    looking at the how good cleveland and houston and NY are/project to be, maybe it was wise for DD to GFIN. As has been stated in other places, how many red sox players would play on houston? 1-2? on Cleveland? 1? on NYY? maybe one? The Sox were lucky to get this far this year. Its not good enough and they have neither the money nor the farm system to get materially better. They have to hope AB, JBJ, MB, X and RD all get a lot better than they were this year. And then hope Sale's arm doesn't fall off, Pom is same guy but who can go 190 innings, edrod matures and Price returns to pre-Sox form.Chances of all those things happening? zero? it is what it is. Most fans I think see the big picture, it is why ticket demand was way down and TV ratings sucked.
     
  43. soxfan121

    soxfan121 JAG Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  44. absintheofmalaise

    absintheofmalaise too many flowers Dope SoSH Member

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    12,260
    Looks like we have the sacrifice for the gods of BABIP all set for today.
     
  45. Minneapolis Millers

    Minneapolis Millers Member SoSH Member

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    This is, of course, true. I blame Belichick and Brady, and, to a lesser extent, Theo.
     
  46. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I disagree here. Every player had a down year this year. If a few bounce back and DD adds the right players to fill the gaps, this team could well hang with those teams.
     
  47. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    They literally just won the division. Like a few days ago.

    What is this?
     
  48. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    I dont have a handle on the NYY starting pitching going forward. They have some guys that had success at AAA, but so did the Sox, and we how that turns out sometimes. Severino is obviously quite good, but Sabathia, Gray and Tanaka seem to all have more questions -- or at least no fewer -- than the Sox rotation going forward.
     
  49. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    3,405
    They won’t just not win it, they won’t even compete for it!
     
  50. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    A lot of this stuff is debateable. What is not debateable is that there are no fans who make the decision whether to go to a game *this* season, or watch the game *tonight* based on your "big picture."

    "Hey, they're pretty good this year. They might even win the division. But they're gonna be bridesmaids for the foreseeable future, so I'm not watching/going." Nobody thinks that way.
     

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