Dismiss Notice
Guest, I have a big favor to ask you. We've been working very hard to establish ourselves on social media. If you like/follow our pages it would be a HUGE help to us. SoSH on Facebook and Inside the Pylon Thanks! Nip

This is the best Red Sox team...ever.

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by Kenny F'ing Powers, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. wiffleballhero

    wiffleballhero Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,313
    This is sort of where I am at as well. When looking at the group of teams in baseball history who won over, say, 105 games, it becomes hard to take seriously the pre-integration teams, not just for purely political reasons either. The lack of the player pool, as just a pure baseball issue, makes it hard to be super impressed.
     
  2. nvalvo

    nvalvo Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    15,632
    The team's OPS+ was 112; its ERA+ was 117. That's really good.
     
  3. BuellMiller

    BuellMiller lurker

    Messages:
    290
    Yeah! I do the same thing. At one point, I tried to get a friend to do some kind of "fantasy" draft of those players (like we'd each pick 2 or 3 out of the 12 every day over the course of a few weeks and then see who has a better team. But he claimed he didn't have time, something about having "wife" and "kids"
     
  4. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    48,037
    Empty nester here so my wife and I do what we want. I see BBREF is still going with it. Right now, the player on the page with the highest WAR is Ian Kinsler, but JD Martinez will catch him.
     
  5. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,830
    It’s all pound for pound. I think even compared to 2004, the game has moved on. I remember when this board would predict moves before Theo made them. Not in a spitballing “what if we trade for this guy” kind of way, just if you read Baseball Prospectus, you knew where he was going to go. Now every team has an analytics department, and most of them are taken seriously (cough Mets). Plus you’ve got buttloads of hard throwing relievers to boot.
     
  6. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,924
    Agreed. Any time you ask if Team A from now or Team B from a long time ago was better, if you don't mean "better compared to their contemporaries," the question is near-meaningless.
     
  7. Noseminer

    Noseminer lurker

    Messages:
    77
    I am so stoked that they won the WS this year. But OTOH, I am so depressed that the ride is over. This was by far the most fun I have had watching baseball in decades. So many great players I had the pleasure of watching this year. Mookie, JD, X, Devers, 10D, Sale, etc. Pearce and Eovaldi becoming Yankee Killers, Cora in his first year, and it couldn't have possibly been done any better. Losing to the Yankees would have sucked the big grinder on so many levels. Losing to the Astros would have sucked, but not as bad. And as far as beating the Dodgers. I feel for Dave Roberts. Sucks he had to be on the losing end. Machado? Glad he looked so damn foolish when he K'ed to end the series. Man this is a year I will never forget.
     
    #907 Noseminer, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  8. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,960
  9. budcrew08

    budcrew08 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,040
    Probably said earlier in the thread, but any team 1947 and before can’t be compared. No teams west of St.Louis and oh yeah, no black or Latin players.
     
  10. Scott_Cooper_AllStar

    Scott_Cooper_AllStar lurker

    Messages:
    20
    In his defense, if it is the same interview I saw, he was responding to a statement from Fred Lynn saying that this was the best Sox outfield ever. I think he's wrong, but to me it sounded like typical elite athlete bravado combined with banter with a brother-in-arms rather than putting down this team.
     
  11. pdub

    pdub Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    447
    Well done, team. Well done indeed.
     
  12. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,213
    Different interview. This was immediately after the final WS game. It could have been bravado like you say. I just saw it as an inability to appreciate this team for what it is.
     
  13. bob burda

    bob burda Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    907
    In fairness to Rice, and maybe a different team than what he mentioned, the 1977 team he played on included most of the '75 players and was loaded to the gills with talent (Doyle at 2b notwithstanding), and was just horribly mismanaged by Zimmer. Anyone on this board who lived through it could go on and on about how bad Zimmer showed himself to be that year alone - a thing he proved to a certainty the following year. He also lost a large part of the team by year's end (the "Buffalo Head Gang," with HOF'er Fergie Jenkins napping in the bullpen in Baltimore, etc.) and he still kept his job.

    No doubt Rice is not of the highest intelligence and baseball acumen, but when I heard he'd said that, I could easily see him imagining the players on that '77 team and the extraordinary talent level they possessed. But the manager is part of a team too, and has so much to do with how talent is utilized, and putting it in positions to succeed. On that level and in terms of outcomes, the '77 Red Sox don't belong on the same field as the 2018 WS Champs, who have a crazy high talent level of their own. Even so, on pure talent the '77 team could match up with almost anybody. Rice could almost legitimately say "we were the best; Zimmer stood in the way of the greatness we should have achieved."
     
  14. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,787
  15. Scott_Cooper_AllStar

    Scott_Cooper_AllStar lurker

    Messages:
    20
    Could still be different, but the interview I'm referring to was also during the final postgame.
     
  16. jose melendez

    jose melendez Earl of Acie Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,081
  17. lapa

    lapa lurker

    Messages:
    544
    Comparing teams from 1912 to today’s teams you may as well try to compare the Red Sox and bruins. It’s just a completely different ballgame, and one that bob Ryan certainly hasn’t seen in live or recorded action
     
  18. Timduhda

    Timduhda lurker

    Messages:
    12
    This was a great read. After reading the column and all most of the posts, I think it’s funny how people could actually compare the teams. I happen to agree with one of the posts that said something to the effect that while Beni, JBJ and Mookie are great, the best trio the Sox had in the OF was Rice, Lynn and Evans. Rice learned how to play the wall and became quite efficient at it and no one questions his hitting prowess. Lynn was a better hitter than JBJ and could field with the best of them. JBJ has the better arm and may become a better hitter, hopefully. Mookie and Evans? Granted, I feel Mookie is the best in baseball in RF, but Evans was close defensively. He had a cannon and played RF in Fenway as well as anyone. Mookie is better at plate and on the base paths, but Evans was a career .270 hitter with close to 400 HR.

    Regardless, this team was awesome and great to follow. Debates like these are always fun and everyone has an opinion.
     
  19. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    20,036
    The lack of player depth is one thing.8 teams is another. mathematically getting to the LCS is as hard as wining the WS before expansion.

    I also exclude the pre-integration teams and players because it a morally repugnant era of history, and I do not really want to even discuss the 27 Yankees because that era doesn't deserve to be considered.
     
  20. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,436
    I struggle to compare those old teams to teams now. Conditioning and strength training are on another level from then.

    The athletes of today are completely different. Even 20 years ago, the amount of 100mph arms has gone up tenfold.

    I have no way of knowing this for sure, but I feel like you take a Mookie or a Judge and they would boggle the mind back then. I don’t feel like the level of competition has been stagnant
     
  21. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    48,037
    It would be like comparing the 1921 Chicago Staleys with their leather helmets and high waist pants to the current Patriots. Ryan should know better. Even Hank Aaron said this fall he’d never get out of AA ball with today’s pitchers, and he played decades later than 1912. Aaron would though. He would.
     
  22. wiffleballhero

    wiffleballhero Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,313
    It is unfair to those earlier eras to seriously try to compare them to players and teams now because they simply can't be held accountable for the countless elements of evolution in the game.

    But by the same token, it is laughable to imagine that a team from the 1920s could beat even a college team now. Watch, with just a sliver of objectivity, this film and see what you think of some of the mechanics on these players. These hitters would get devoured by pitching now. While your at it, check out the short porch in right at League Park in Cleveland. It looks like a little league field.

    In some ways it might have been a more joyous game to watch, but good lord, these guys would cower just looking at, say, Nathan Eovaldi.

     
  23. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,436
    That footage is unbelievable. Stan Musial could be a bullpen catcher?

    I can’t imagine the jokes we would make about Babe Ruth. Luke voit has nothing on him.
     
  24. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    15,804
    After reading the offseason thread, I realized that the Sox won 108 games while hiving 38 starts to guys who were, well, way down the depth chart. 11 starts to Pomeranz (+ 11 starts to Eovaldi ),.13 to Brian Johnson, and 14 to Velazquez/Wright/Beeks/Cuevas.

    wwow.
     
  25. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,960
    It's stupid though. It's like comparing military leaders from different eras when the newer ones have fighter jets, or surgeons from different eras when the newer ones have MRIs and antibiotics.

    The question should be how good were they relative to their competition (ed: and their particular era)? Otherwise I'll tell you right now that the 2063 Red Sox, even though they will finish fourth, would blow away the 2018 team.
     
  26. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,436
    Yep. And even though they took their foot off the gas in September, they still played only 2-3 games under their seasonal average.

    This was a team that had a very Patriots-like “next man up” mentality. And that’s required for any team that is successful.
     
  27. nvalvo

    nvalvo Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    15,632
    Tris Speaker swings like a LH Hunter Pence.
     
  28. jaytftwofive

    jaytftwofive lurker

    Messages:
    339
    Maybe he meant 78. 78 had better starting pitching then 77. Position by position that may have been the best, but they had no bench. And Zimmer mishandled the pitching, benching Lee etc...
     
  29. gedman211

    gedman211 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,158
    I don't know, you ever try playing baseball under water?
     
  30. timlinin8th

    timlinin8th Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,521
    Martian gravity is significantly lower than Earth's so their teams will have an unfair advantage though.
     
  31. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,427
    The great players would, IMO, be great in any era. If you took Musial or Williams and transported them to 2018, and gave them the same training, they’d be tremendous. The only sport where that might not apply as much is basketball, where height is a much more important factor. Football, guys could get bigger and stronger with improved, modern training. But you can’t make a 6’5” guy get to 6’11”.
     
  32. lapa

    lapa lurker

    Messages:
    544
    You can’t just throw era+ and the likes out there either. This is not just ‘relative dominance’ that would work if you want to compare modern teams. Athletes and the game itself in 1912 cannot in any reasonable way be compared to what we see on the field in 2018 IMO. I don’t know where the cutoff is when you can start throwing out + stats to assess relative dominance in the league but 1912 is before that cutoff and 2018 is after it. I mean if 1912 only had 20 ‘athletes’ and several hundred guys who had day jobs at the farm I don’t see how an era and ops+ tells you anything if one or two teams had the few proper players and the rest of the league was dogshit. Nowadays the financial rewards are vast and the competition is ludicrous just to become a professional. There’s zero chance (IMO) that you’re looking at the same part of any ‘normal bell curve’ so no reasonable way to say that relative stats in 1912 mean the same as they do now

    I would expect performance curves in the modern game to be sampling the elite tail end of any normal curve describing humans ability to play baseball, I’d expect 1912 curves to be a lot closer to a normal bell curve

    That might be a fun exercise actually

    Here’s 1912 v 2018 ops with >100 pa players
    I think the 2018 shows less ‘crap’ on the left side and the right side is a stronger downslope but I’m not sure if I didn’t expect a more striking difference so I’ll just shut the hell up

    https://postimg.cc/KkYc4g6f

    [​IMG]
     
    #932 lapa, Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  33. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

    Messages:
    1,208
    Where would they be playing? The Fenway Park of 1912 was a bit different than the Fenway Park in more modern times. For example, their was Duffy's Cliff, a 10-foot high incline that sloped back down to the playing field from the LF line to CF, and the dimensions were much longer to various points: LF--324; LCF-379; CF-488 to 550 at deepest point; RCF-380; right of RCF-405; RF-313. And a lot of other parks were also big: Washington's LF was 407 down the line with about an 11' fence and while it's deepest point was only 423, the wall from the RF line to somewhere in CF was 30' high.

    Also, there was no state-of-the-art field grooming, drainage was poorer, no ballpark lighting, there were only an average of 5-6 baseballs used per game and they were less tightly wound and production control was minimal, pitchers could throws spitballs and get away with applying other substances to them, there were two umpires in a game (regular season), training and medical treatment didn't have today's advantages (eyesight could not be improved with contact lenses or Lasik surgery; muscle, ligament, tendon injuries, etc. frequently stopped careers). Things were really different, so how can you say, for example, that Mookie Betts was a better center fielder than Tris Speaker? You have to judge players by their peers. Assume that Speaker grew up with today's advantages or that Betts grew up in Speaker's era (racism aside); you really can't say how much better either one would be, or others.
     
  34. teddywingman

    teddywingman Looks like Zach Galifianakis SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,709
    Home games in 2018 and road games in 1912. Travel between games could be a factor.
     
  35. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

    Messages:
    1,208
    Train travel from Chicago to Boston in 1912 on the 20th Century Limited took 21 hours and 20 minutes. If you weren't able to get on that train then the trip was close to 48 hours.
    https://www.nypl.org/blog/2013/03/15/cross-country-travel-1912
     
  36. teddywingman

    teddywingman Looks like Zach Galifianakis SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,709
    Yeah, but Mookie Betts would be there. That changes everything.

    Add edit: Charlie, I think you're way off on your train tables.
     
  37. Over Guapo Grande

    Over Guapo Grande panty merchant SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,474
    If a 20th Century Limited left Boston in 1912 to Chicago at 5:00 AM, and a chartered flight left O'Hare to Logan at 8:00AM on 2018, when would they intersect?
     
  38. Kenny F'ing Powers

    Kenny F'ing Powers posts 18% useful shit

    Messages:
    10,479
    It's cute that people think baseball will even be around then. Blernsball will be all the rage.
     
  39. BillLeesJumpShot

    BillLeesJumpShot Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    111
    Stellar!! We were the team basking in the glow of Our Team.
     
  40. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

    Messages:
    1,208
    What? An hour? I just related the time that was in the article to which I linked. Argue with whoever wrote it.
     
  41. Noseminer

    Noseminer lurker

    Messages:
    77
    Mods please delete. thank you.
     
    #941 Noseminer, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  42. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,436
    Saw this on reddit and it made me laugh.

     
  43. The Racoon

    The Racoon Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    320
    I think I'm not the only one who has problems with embedded videos from streamable - so: https://streamable. com/u31wi (remove the space)
     
  44. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,436
    Oh, sorry.
     
  45. LogansDad

    LogansDad Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,505
    Man, I miss watching this team play the game with the bases and the balls and the bats and the pitching.
     
  46. uk_sox_fan

    uk_sox_fan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Yeah bases and bats and balls are pretty cool...
     
  47. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,266
    JD won 2 Silver Sluggers this season—at DH and OF. First time that’s ever happened.

    Mookie won too, obviously.
     
  48. oumbi

    oumbi Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,911
  49. edoug

    edoug Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,848
  50. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,507
    It's the Onion.
     

Share This Page