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This is the best Red Sox team...ever.

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by Kenny F'ing Powers, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Kenny F'ing Powers

    Kenny F'ing Powers posts 18% useful shit

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    10,479
    No. They haven't won a World Series. So, maybe they aren't the best Red Sox team ever...yet.

    But are they the best regular season Red Sox team of all time?

    Let's pretend this team wins the World Series. Are they the best Red Sox team of all time?

    Or, let's just discuss regular season. Is this the best regular season Red Sox team of all time?

    The question is flexible. Discuss this teams legacy factor.
     
  2. pappymojo

    pappymojo Member SoSH Member

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    4,654
    I think we have to wait to see the full year through.
     
  3. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    20,294
    While you can't take away the wins, or the run differential, I can't help but feel that so much of the league just absolutely sucks and it has led to inflated records for the elite teams. This Sox team is very good, and also, extremely consistent, but I don't think it is overall as good as a team as 2007, which to me is the best Sox team at least of the last like 40 years.
     
  4. Adrian's Dome

    Adrian's Dome Member SoSH Member

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    4,310
    They've done all this without

    1. Their 2nd baseman

    and

    2. Exceptional injury luck. They went a month without Betts. Devers and Xander have had injuries. They lost a catcher. Their #2 starter went down. Their #4 (realistically he was 2nd or 3rd last year) has been injured/garbage all year. Their #6 went down. Moreland has been banged up. Smith, expected to be the 7th or 8th inning guy, went down.

    And yet, they keep on chugging along.
     
  5. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    32,266
    While you can't take away the losses, or the run differential, I can't help but feel that so much of the league is just absolutely awesome and it has led to deflated records for the bad teams.

    ;)
     
  6. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    3,912
    They're currently percentage points behind the 1912 team for the best Pythag record in franchise history (.669 vs. .666), well ahead of 1949 (.632) for the best since WWII, and way ahead of 2007 (.624) for the best since 1949. Obviously there's games left to go, so it's too early to call anything like this.
     
  7. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

    Messages:
    6,731
    From the article, which you also quoted:
    Uh, dude, the 2007 team outscored their opponents by 210 runs. The 2013 squad was +197. The 1946 Red Sox had a +198 run differential, the 1948 team a +187, it was +229 in 1949, and the 1950 team wasn't far behind at +223. The franchise record was the 1912 team at +255. And if you want to hit your head against your desk, the 2002 team was +194. The greatness of the 2004 club is entirely from the historic nature of their postseason accomplishments.

    This 2018 team would be hard pressed to top +255 (at which point I assume we'd hit buffer overflow and get reverted back to -255), but I think given the difference in maturity of the sport from the early 1900s, I'd be comfortable calling this the best regular-season Red Sox team if we can top that +229.

    edit: another thing to add, by Pythagorean Win%, this 2018 team is second by only a hair to that record team of 1912, at 0.666 to 0.669. But they played only a 154-game season, and if you can believe it our run differential per game this year is actually a little ahead of that 1912 team, +1.673 to +1.656. So we're actually on pace to top +255, which is amazing. And both are way ahead of the third place season in either metric, which are 1903 at 0.653 Pyth%, and 1949 at +1.477 RD/game, respectively.

    edit2: top Red Sox teams by regular-season run differential
    1. 1912 +255
    2. 1949 +229
    3. 1950 +223
    4. 2007 +210
    5. 1903 +204
    6. 1946 +198
    7. 2013 +197
    8. 2002 +194
    9. 1948 +187
    10t 2018 +184
    10t 2016 +184
    12. 2004 +181
    13. 1915 +170
    14. 1942 +167
    15. 2003 +152

    Kinda amazing that we're already tied for 10th in franchise history with 50+ games remaining though.
     
    #7 InstaFace, Aug 3, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  8. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    20,294
    The 2004 team was only great from about August 10 on. They were just an above average team before then.

    Edit: 60-50 on August 10. 38-14 the rest of the regular season plus 11-3 playoffs.
     
  9. nolasoxfan

    nolasoxfan Member SoSH Member

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    2,996
    I beg you all to forgo further discussion on this topic until the end of October.
    Let’s not incite the baseball gods in any way, shape, or form.
     
  10. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    5,073
    As long as we don't tie or break 116 wins, we should be okay, karma-wise. Not that we're a lock or anything close to win it all if we come up short of 116, but if we hit 116 we are 100% karmically hosed. The 1906 Cubs, 1995-96 Red Wings, 2001 Mariners, 2007-08 Patriots, and 2015-16 Warriors all say, " hi."
     
  11. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    6,731
    It must be tough to go through life believing that what happens is shaped by bizarre, whimsical forces beyond your control, but which care what sorts of topics you discuss or words you mention.

    Especially when it makes you enjoy a season that's this special a bit less, or less often.
     
  12. Kenny F'ing Powers

    Kenny F'ing Powers posts 18% useful shit

    Messages:
    10,479
    As someone who posted, "Should we rest our players?" while up 3-0 to the Flyers, I'm still comfortable starting this thread.
     
  13. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    58,020
    You get what you pay for
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    37,372
    I think that yes, if we postulate for the sake of argument, that this team plays out the rest of the season such that they are the best regular season Red Sox of all time, then yes, they will probably be the--

    what the hell is the question again?
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    37,372
    Oh God, it so is.

    Edit: This is probably why I've become such a fervent convert to @Buzzkill Pauley 's anti-WAR reformist movement in praise of the prophet JBJ.

    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/00ftvy/futurama-going-robot
     
    #15 Reverend, Aug 3, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  16. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    9,507
    Remember when we watched last year's team and imagined how good they would be if they actually hit what they were expected to hit?

    Welcome 2018.
     
  17. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    37,372
    This thread is worth a revisit:
    Every Single Hitter Is Hitting Worse Than He Did in 2016

    Last year was scientifically strange*.


    *Edit Note: IANAQM
     
  18. bigq

    bigq Member SoSH Member

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    2,079
    Particularly in the postseason. Or for that matter, if Sale and Porcello pitched to expectations in the postseason. Or any other number of variables. What is certain to me is this season had brought joy back to Red Sox baseball on a consistent basis which has been really fun. For me, this is the best Red Sox regular season I have experienced in my 44 years.
     
  19. DegenerateSoxFan

    DegenerateSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    1,397
    They're at 77-34 (.694). To reach 100 wins, they'll need to go 23-28 (.451) for the remainder. Now, they could certainly tail off a bit from their current pace, which projects to 112-50. But barring some bizarrely catastrophic drop-off, they're going to get to triple digits in the W column, something that no Red Sox team has achieved in my lifetime, including three very good World Series winners and some quality near-winners. I was reflecting on this with my dad. He was just a little kid when William's '46 team went 104-50 (.676, which projects to 109-53 over 162 games), and doesn't really remember it. So it's kind of like a neat little bucket list item to check off. Weird, when you think about it, even with the massive difference in sample size between MLB and the NFL, but it's really hard to go the win-percentage equivalent of 10-6 over the course of a baseball season.

    Besides the ridonkulous team & individual stats, these guys are just plain fun to watch. Mookie = joy.
     
  20. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    On the field perhaps. But they're missing a personality like in 95 (Mo), 99 (Pedro), 04 (Manny, Millar, Pedro), 07 (Ortiz, Manny), or 13 (Ortiz, Gomes)
     
  21. joyofsox

    joyofsox empty, bleak Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    7,456
    I thought we all became baseball atheists in late October 2004. (Many of us never believed in evil spirits and ghosts, of course.)
     
  22. DegenerateSoxFan

    DegenerateSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    1,397
    Maybe, but if the lack of an outsize personality among the bunch doesn't keep them from playing near-.700 ball or hinder them in the post-season in any way, I can live with that.
     
  23. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

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    1,327
    This guy would like to see you in his office.

     
  24. teddywingman

    teddywingman Looks like Zach Galifianakis SoSH Member

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    I keep hearing this and I think it's just evidence of a lack of observation. Have you ever seen a player that is having more fun than Mookie Betts? Even when the chips are down he'll flash that famous grin.

    I mean, Pedro and Papi are unique legends, but there's a star shining equally bright playing right now if he continues to shine.

    Then there's JDM, a hitting scientist and his effect on the whole team. It's like they gained a player/coach.

    And the outfield defense, JBJ making the impossible happen on a regular basis.

    The young guys hitting their stride, Benintendi and Bogaerts.

    The nuts like Holt and Kelly.

    And amazing pitching. This team has it all and does not lack character.
     
  25. Adrian's Dome

    Adrian's Dome Member SoSH Member

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    Agreed. This is a team with chemistry, you can tell they like and feed off each other, and it shows on the field when they never give up. I have more confidence in this squad to make a game out of anything - the Johnson start is only the most recent example.
     
  26. ookami7m

    ookami7m Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    4,558
    There's plenty of personality on this team. Mookie is as close to the magnetic personality that Pedro or Ortiz was that we'll ever see. BROCKHOLT! is the dugout jokester who is clearly having nearly as much fun as anyone in the game. That's before you get to the token bullpen oddity in Fightin Joe Kelly.

    This is the most fun I've had watching a regular season since 2007.
     
  27. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Cross posting from the game thread.

     
  28. Dehere

    Dehere Member SoSH Member

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    3,074
    Agree with this. From the time of the Cabrera/Mientkiewicz deal through the World Series that team was not only an all-time Red Sox team but one of the great teams of my lifetime, period. Those figures cited above are a 120 win pace.
     
  29. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    7,114
    I was a baseball theist from the first time that I saw Pedro pitch, and 2004 did not produce a deconversion. ;)
     
  30. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    37,372
    I actually wonder if this particular team might not have its enjoyableness come across fully to anyone following on radio and not tv.

    There is a lot of visual joy to this team that may not be available--maybe disproportionately so.
     
  31. InsideTheParker

    InsideTheParker Member SoSH Member

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    23,470
    What about the anguish of the closer allowing the go-ahead run to come to the plate? Can you get that without watching?
     
  32. Brianish

    Brianish Member SoSH Member

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    As someone living outside of the Sox coverage, I can attest that yes, you can.
     
  33. rlsb

    rlsb lurker

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    1946 79-33
    2018 78-34
    1912 77-35
    1915 75-37
     
  34. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

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    The 2003 regular season team was probably my favorite to watch in my lifetime. Emphasis on regular season. Just an absolutely relentless lineup that made me feel like they were indeed better than the Yankees. The 2004 team had some issues until the deadline so it wasn't a 6 month romp.

    This team takes the cake though. What gets me is that they haven't even been close to the picture of health like their world series winners for the most part were.

    Dombrowski has hit a million % this year between the manager, JDM and the other in season acquisitions (we'll leave out Nunez). The Hanley situation seems like it happened last year too. Completely seamless.
     
  35. oumbi

    oumbi Member SoSH Member

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    1,911
    And where is the fun in that?
     
  36. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    37,372
    Right. I mean, by then, we'll know, right? Or will we? Wait... I'm confused again.
     
  37. Rasputin

    Rasputin Will outlive SeanBerry Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    29,151
    So...we win tomorrow, this division is all but won. Meanwhile, the Astros are 7 games back for the best record overall and I guess they could make that up but they won't and we're going to have to face the winning of the Wild Card game.

    And really, I don't like the idea of playing Oakland in the playoffs.
     
  38. jaytftwofive

    jaytftwofive lurker

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    1978 was the best Red Sox team in my lifetime, IMO. Problems were no real bench, a stubborn manager who benched the best lefty on the team, and one bad streak from late August to Sept 16th or so. I know they didn't win the WS or even the division but on paper I think that was the best team. I'm 60. I really believe Zimmer cost them the division with his managing and benching BIll Lee.
     
  39. jaytftwofive

    jaytftwofive lurker

    Messages:
    339
    The Sox have the best record but I still believe thse Stros are the team to beat with their pitching. Plus they are the champs and you have to take it away from them. An example the 2001 Mariners that won 116 games lost the to the Yankees who won 95 or 96 games. They were the still the champs.
     
  40. jaytftwofive

    jaytftwofive lurker

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    339
    I also believe the 1950 team could have been the best had not Ted gone down in July and was lost for the year. They still finished 4 or 5 games back.
     
  41. mt8thsw9th

    mt8thsw9th anti-SoSHal SoSH Member

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    17,087
    It was 118 and that’s only 5 over the current team’s pace. That is over double the amount of games, plus an extra 8 games. There’s no comparison at this point.
     
  42. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    This team keeps coming up with new ways to boggle my mind. Here's one: The Sox are now 8 and a half games ahead of a team that would be in first place in every other division but one in baseball. If they were in the NL West, the Sox would be 16 games ahead of a team on a 90-win pace.
     
  43. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    As opposed to who? Also, Oakland is only 5 back of the Astros... and Seattle is closer to the Yankees for the 2nd wild card than the Astros are to us.

    The Yankees missing the playoffs is probably more likely than the Redsox not winning the division.
     
  44. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

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    1,327
    The Yankees leave New York after a game Sunday for a West Coast trip beginning Monday of three games against Oakland and three against Seattle in early September. If both those teams hang in, it could get interesting for them.
     
  45. Trotsky

    Trotsky Member SoSH Member

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    2,036
    I wouldn't be thrilled to face Oakland in a one game playoff, but a 5 game series with home advantage would leave me pretty confident (assuming fully healthy players on both teams).
    The thought of the Yankees getting swept and then bumped out of the playoffs by those two teams makes me crazy ecstatic this morning
     
  46. uk_sox_fan

    uk_sox_fan Member SoSH Member

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    Interesting that the Sox recently caught the Astros for best run differential (on Monday and again Friday) before the Astros 14-0 demolition of the LAD last night put them back 10 runs ahead. Sox were 60 runs back 6 weeks ago.
     
  47. uk_sox_fan

    uk_sox_fan Member SoSH Member

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    1,138
  48. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    For the Yankees to miss the playoffs, they'd have to finish behind three AL West teams -- who are all going to be playing each other a lot. It's not going to happen.

    (BP has the Sox at 90.1% to win the division, Yankees at 99.6% to make the playoffs.)
     
  49. In my lifetime

    In my lifetime Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    887
    This brings up an interesting point, one that is taken into account in football rankings on various levels. After a certain point, even though baseball is significantly different in this regard than football, the run differential should be capped. Let's say 8 runs, since after that point there tends to be significant lineup/pitching changes (or in the case of pitching - lack of changes) from both teams. I am not sure that would significantly change relative run differential, but I believe it would certainly make sense to have a cap when we look at run differential.
     
  50. VORP Speed

    VORP Speed Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Seattle is collapsing. The way the Yankees miss the playoffs is a 2011 redux scenario—they fade hard and Rays get super hot and take something like 6 of 7 in their remaining head to heads. Rays have an easy finishing schedule, including 13 remaining games against Toronto (this unbalanced schedule is so lame).

    Maybe I can figure out how to get some Popeye’s delivered to the Yankees clubhouse.
     

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