The Starting Rotation's Start

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grimshaw

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I would if only because two potential spot starters (Velazquez and Johnson) sitting in the pen is essentially having no spot starters at all after a while. Barring injury or a long extra inning game, how frequent will the need for a true long-man be with this rotation? Certainly not enough to necessitate two guys who can throw 40-50+ pitches per outing when necessary. Without regular opportunities to throw that many pitches in a game, they're going to turn into 30 pitch maximum guys quickly.
I can see both sides but I just think Velasquez has earned a spot. His value is also tied to keeping the rest of the pen fresh. If he goes like a week between appearances, then ya stretch him out in the minors, but I think he has as much if not more usefulness as Poyner to the current roster. They really haven't been tested in a long grind yet due to all the off days and the rain out so having a few guys who can go multiple innings may be more helpful long term.

Also -the odds of Velazquez being lined up for a spot start to coincide with an injury are pretty low.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I can see both sides but I just think Velasquez has earned a spot. His value is also tied to keeping the rest of the pen fresh. If he goes like a week between appearances, then ya stretch him out in the minors, but I think he has as much if not more usefulness as Poyner to the current roster. They really haven't been tested in a long grind yet due to all the off days and the rain out so having a few guys who can go multiple innings may be more helpful long term.

Also -the odds of Velazquez being lined up for a spot start to coincide with an injury are pretty low.
Fair points, but Poyner is a guy who can pitch two innings if need be. And he can be shuttled in favor of Walden or Workman or Scott if the pen needs a fresh arm. That's another angle of the bullpen depth not really being tested thus far...we haven't even needed to see some of those shuttle guys yet, but we will and they're there.

Perhaps I mis-spoke a bit by saying that Velazquez needs to be stretched out for a spot start. You're right that there's a fair chance he wouldn't be lined up if it's a last minute thing like spot starts usually are. But if someone were to go down for to a DL worthy injury, they'd need someone who could fill the rotation spot 2-3 times. Wright just had another setback plus he's still got the suspension to serve, so he won't be that guy for a long while. Johnson can be that guy if it happens soon, but the longer he's exclusively a reliever, the more ramp up he'll need to be a starter who can cover 75+ pitches and at least 5 innings. So it would fall to Velazquez to step in if someone tweaks a knee or has elbow soreness or what have you. For spot starts, they still have Beeks as an option or a bullpen game to get them by. A long term sub though, that's where Velazquez is valuable.
 

In my lifetime

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Count me in as a believer much more in Velazquez than Poyner. I don't think that is a particularly tough decision at this point in sending Poyner down.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Makes sense, with Pomeranz still finding his way. Poyner can get more use in different situations in AAA this way
And it’s not just Pom. With 4 LHSP, the Red Sox certainly can make good use out of a RH long man who turns around a lineup. With Wright again out-of-commission, and Johnson providing the team a LHRP arm, it just makes sense to keep Velazquez on the MLB roster.

Given the problems attendant upon the knuckleball, I’m not entirely sure I wouldn’t rather have Velazquez in this role, anyway.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I guess I'm in the minority who doesn't see a real and true need for a "long man" at all, let alone two. I think the need for relievers to cover the 4th through 6th innings are going to be the rare exception with this rotation so long as it is healthy. And if the starters are consistently getting to and through the 6th, that doesn't leave much opportunity for long relievers.

If the only quality Velazquez brings over Poyner is his ability to pitch multiple innings, I'm not sure that's anything at all. And that multi-inning ability is going to atrophy if he lacks opportunities to do it. Short term, Velazquez is fine. But long term, he's better served staying stretched out in Pawtucket in order to remain the team's 6th starter. He has more value in that role.
 

sean1562

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i couldnt think of a clever Erod thread title, so figured I would just post here. I think what we are getting out of him now is more or less what he is and will be, which is a pretty useful piece that is gonna be with us through 2021. I don't think he will be the best Pomeranz replacement, but in an ideal world where Wright comes back and can give us some solid innings, I like our rotation next year with or without Pom.

So are we all pretty happy with what we have seen from Eduardo this year? I know we all dream of great things for the guy, but a 2-3 WAR pitcher as a starter is a valuable piece, and I am glad to see him have some decent starts to begin the season
 

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uk_sox_fan

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I’m flying across the Pond next week and will be in the Friendly Confines for Wednesday’s game. Was excited last week when it looked like we’d catch Sale, but with him leapfrogging Pom in the rotation Thursday it looks like we’re drawing Pomeranz instead. I’d really like him to solve whatever ails him by then (or else have a rainout before then push everyone back a game).
 

BaseballJones

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Bradford with the interesting stat last night. The Sox are 21-8. But they are 7-6 in starts made by Sale and Price. Game log...

Sale
at TB (L, 6-4): 6.0 ip, 1 h, 0 r, 0 er, 3 bb, 9 k, ND
at Mia (W, 4-2): 5.0 ip, 5 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 6 k, ND
vs NY (W, 14-1): 6.0 ip, 8 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 8 k, W
vs Bal (W, 3-1): 5.0 ip, 2 h, 1 r, 1 er, 2 bb, 8 k, ND
at Oak (L, 3-0): 7.0 ip, 6 h, 3 r, 3 er, 1 bb, 10 k, L
at Tor (W, 5-4): 6.0 ip, 4 h, 3 r, 3 er, 2 bb, 4 k, W
vs KC (L, 7-6): 7.0 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 1 er, 2 bb, 6 k, ND
TOT (4-3): 42.0 ip, 31 h, 11 r, 10 er, 10 bb, 51 k, 2.14 era, 0.98 whip, 10.9 k/9, 2-1 record

Price
at TB (W, 1-0): 7.0 ip, 4 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 5 k, W
vs TB (W, 3-2): 7.0 ip, 3 h, 0 r, 0 er, 3 bb, 5 k, ND
vs NY (L, 10-7): 1.0 ip, 3 h, 4 r, 4 er, 2 bb, 1 k, L
at LA (W, 10-1): 5.0 ip, 3 h, 1 r, 1 er, 4 bb, 6 k, W
at Oak (L, 4-1): 7.2 ip, 9 h, 4 r, 4 er, 1 bb, 6 k, L
vs TB (L, 12-6): 5.2 ip, 8 h, 6 r, 5 er, 4 bb, 5 k, L
TOT (3-3): 33.1 ip, 30 h, 15 r, 14 er, 14 bb, 28 k, 3.78 era, 1.32 whip, 7.6 k/9, 2-3 record

In Sale's games:
- TB (L, 6-4): He pitched great, left with a 4-0 lead, and the bullpen imploded in the 8th.
- Mia (W, 4-2): He got no run support; the Sox finally scored after he left the game.
- Bal (W, 3-1): Same as the Miami game; no run support while he was in there.
- Oak (L, 3-0): Got no-hit that game, for crying out loud.
- KC (L, 7-6): Left with a 3-2 lead; Kimbrel gives up a homer in the 9th and they go on to lose.

I mean, Chris Sale should be 7-0 right now. Give him the loss when they got no-hit because give the other guy credit. So 6-1. Instead he's 2-1 and the Sox are just one game above .500 when he pitches. It's absurd.

For Price, he had the one inning crapfest against the Yankees, and he deserved to lose the 12-6 game to Tampa. But the Oakland game...it was 1-1 and then they extended him another inning and he gave up the 3-run homer, but the offense was a total no-show in that game. I think Price should be 3-2 with 2 no-decisions. But the Sox should have won probably three of these games that these guys pitched that turned out to be losses. That would put them at 10-3 in games these guys pitch, not 7-6.

Sale looks like he's gonna end up with 16-17 wins, a tiny era, and great stats, when he really probably should be about a 22-23 game winner. Ugh.
 

Sale4CY

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I really do wonder if the team’s penchant for not scoring runs for Sale AND Kimbrel blowing his wins (3 off the top of my head) will weigh heavy on Chris Sale’s mind when he’s up for free agency. I hope not.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I really do wonder if the team’s penchant for not scoring runs for Sale AND Kimbrel blowing his wins (3 off the top of my head) will weigh heavy on Chris Sale’s mind when he’s up for free agency. I hope not.
Get your head out of the Stone Age please
 

tims4wins

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I really do wonder if the team’s penchant for not scoring runs for Sale AND Kimbrel blowing his wins (3 off the top of my head) will weigh heavy on Chris Sale’s mind when he’s up for free agency. I hope not.
I'd like to see the top of your head for those three games, considering Kimbrell has only given up 2 runs this season
Right, the other run came on the road in Toronto in the bottom of the 10th of a tie game. It was a non-save situation. The Sox have won every other game in which Kimbrel has pitched.

By the way there is only one "L" in Kimbrel. Let's get the guy's name right, otherwise he may want to leave when he is a free agent.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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That’d be a great contract demand! Team must score at least two runs more than I give up per outing, to ensure that when whatever shitty closer comes in after me can still allow a harmless solo HR.
 

tims4wins

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That’d be a great contract demand! Team must score at least two runs more than I give up per outing, to ensure that when whatever shitty closer comes in after me can still allow a harmless solo HR.
Pedro must have hated pitching here
 

BaseballJones

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Why does his win count really matter?
As long as they win games, it doesn't matter who gets credit for the win. But in terms of personal achievements, wins still matter for starting pitchers. I bet Chris Sale would love to have a chance at the Hall of Fame someday. And if, say, he loses 25 wins somewhere, that could cost him votes.

But more important than the individual stuff, the fact that the Sox are 7-6 in starts made by Sale and Price is surprising and not so good. Price has had a couple of duds, but Sale has been really good every time out. His worst start was still 6 innings of 3 run ball (a "quality start"). The Sox probably can't afford to lose those games.
 

trekfan55

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A quick perusal of Cots seems to tell me he has options. So it's not a bad idea to send him down for a couple of weeks and start Velasquez. At this point I would also keep an eye on Beeks, who is dominating AAA.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Exactly. That is NOT an option.

If he is hurt they can DL him and then rehab him but he would have to be Hurt.

Meanwhile, we shouldn't be rushing to judgement based on a few innings or a couple of weeks of games. At all.
 

joe dokes

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Pomeranz is horrendous so far (again today). Maybe a minor league rehab stint is needed. Start Velasquez!
6IP 8H 3ER from the team's expected 4th best starter is good enough for me and quite a few other MLB teams.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Pomeranz is horrendous so far (again today). Maybe a minor league rehab stint is needed. Start Velasquez!
There's a game thread for this kind of nonsense.

Judyb is right, Pomeranz has the right to refuse an optional assignment because of his service time. Besides, I'm not sure Pomeranz's issues are something a minor league stint is going to fix. Maybe he's hurt (the lack of velocity early isn't a great sign) but Jason Mastrodonato offers an alternative explanation...


All that aside, he's now through six innings with 89 pitches. If he's done, it's in the books as a quality start. I can live with that from the fourth or fifth best starter in the rotation.
 

mauf

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I really do wonder if the team’s penchant for not scoring runs for Sale AND Kimbrel blowing his wins (3 off the top of my head) will weigh heavy on Chris Sale’s mind when he’s up for free agency. I hope not.
Pomeranz is horrendous so far (again today). Maybe a minor league rehab stint is needed. Start Velasquez!
This isn’t a game thread, folks. Bring substance or don’t post.
 

trekfan55

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Although he does have the 5 years of service time that give him the right to refuse being optioned.
Exactly. That is NOT an option.

If he is hurt they can DL him and then rehab him but he would have to be Hurt.

Meanwhile, we shouldn't be rushing to judgement based on a few innings or a couple of weeks of games. At all.
He may be hurt, or not completely healed. There is the observation about tipping pitches too. But maybe he came back too quickly (and at the time they needed him) but if Velazquez can sub for him maybe he does need a DL stint to get better. And yeah, 6IP 8H, 3ER, 2BB and 3K is something one would like from a 4th/5th pitcher, if they have the replacement, they should do well to take advantage of the 10 day DL. The Dodgers did that last year with plenty of starters. Not advocating the Sox do it so much that the league may want to take a look though.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Surprised to see that the MFY have jumped ahead of Boston in team ERA
The Yankees are incrediby talented all around. It's a team I still feel is most likely better than the Red Sox and one I expect to win the division.

If their starters perform it's a scary scary group of players.
 

Sale4CY

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The Yankees are incrediby talented all around. It's a team I still feel is most likely better than the Red Sox and one I expect to win the division.

If their starters perform it's a scary scary group of players.
I’d still take our rotation over there’s pretty easily especially with how Porcello is doing this year.
 

OurF'ingCity

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He may be hurt, or not completely healed. There is the observation about tipping pitches too. But maybe he came back too quickly (and at the time they needed him) but if Velazquez can sub for him maybe he does need a DL stint to get better. And yeah, 6IP 8H, 3ER, 2BB and 3K is something one would like from a 4th/5th pitcher, if they have the replacement, they should do well to take advantage of the 10 day DL. The Dodgers did that last year with plenty of starters. Not advocating the Sox do it so much that the league may want to take a look though.
Anecdotally it seems like Pomeranz has struggled early in each of his three starts and then settled down a bit in the middle innings, which suggests to me he is still working through some stuff, whether that is lingering rust, pitch mechanics, or whatever. That would also suggest that (unless he really is still hurt) putting him on the 10 day DL might not work because that could just put him back at square one. I'd frankly rather have him slowly improve over the next few games rather than erase any progress he may have made conditioning, etc.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don’t think a division win is in their future this season but all they’ll need is to get in as the WC and they’re still the most dangerous team in the playoffs.
 

joe dokes

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Anecdotally it seems like Pomeranz has struggled early in each of his three starts and then settled down a bit in the middle innings, which suggests to me he is still working through some stuff, whether that is lingering rust, pitch mechanics, or whatever. That would also suggest that (unless he really is still hurt) putting him on the 10 day DL might not work because that could just put him back at square one. I'd frankly rather have him slowly improve over the next few games rather than erase any progress he may have made conditioning, etc.

he says mechanics:

Pomeranz finds form
Out of the gate, it looked like more of the same for starter Drew Pomeranz. The lefthander’s fastball sat at 87-89 m.p.h. and his curveball lacked bite in the first two innings, during which he and the Sox fell into a 3-0 hole.
But over the next four innings, Pomeranz looked more like the pitcher who emerged as the team’s second-most reliable starter in 2017, unbalancing the Royals with a fastball that topped out at 92 m.p.h. on his 89th and final pitch and a curveball that featured more of its signature bite.“We put in a lot of work between this last start and now,” said Pomeranz. “I threw a lot. I watched a lot of video, did a lot of things trying to find some rhythm out there.
“For whatever reason, it wasn’t clicking the first couple of innings. Then all of a sudden, I just kind of got it. I was getting a lot different swings those last few innings.”
Drew Pomeranz had a rocky two innings before recovering to go six for his first win of 2018.
In his side work, Pomeranz tried to get greater extension on his pitches, with a release point closer to the plate, giving them more power.
Early on Wednesday, that work didn’t translate, but over his final four innings, it did, helping Pomeranz earn his first win of the season.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/05/02/notebook-joe-kelly-relieved-get-back-mound/go9Or4hCBCqFyJwk9xtjUO/story.html
 

sean1562

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YEa, CC's age and luck have to catch up to him eventually. SOnny Gray will get better, but Porcello and Pomeranz are definitely better. The big wild card is how Price performs. In a dream world he would be way better than Tanaka but wouldn't be surprised if Tanaka is the better of the two moving forward(this year and next)
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Sonny Gray is pretty bad, CC is sitting on an ERA of 1.71 with a FIP of 4.22, and Montgomery isnt really that great. I'll take our 3-5.
He also just hit the DL and is expected to miss 6-8 weeks with a forearm strain. Starting pitching is where the Yankees are thinnest and they just got thinner.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I’m including last year, an April start in Toronto and in July against the MFY.
I'm guessing every single starting pitcher who has started at least 30 games since 2017 has had at least 2-3 wins "lost." I'm also guessing they've had a few losses turned into no decisions.
 

uk_sox_fan

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I really do wonder if the team’s penchant for not scoring runs for Sale AND Kimbrel blowing his wins (3 off the top of my head) will weigh heavy on Chris Sale’s mind when he’s up for free agency. I hope not.
I’m sorry to pile on but... I’m really not that sorry. You’ve been here a short while but have already stood out for making post after ridiculously lousy, unthought-out, poor-quality post. Please stop or if you can’t help yourself, please stay in the Game threads.
 

Sale4CY

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https://www.weei.com/blogs/alex-reimer/chris-sale-omf-talks-about-changing-his-pitching-approach-season

“Longevity is the key –– longevity and consistency,” he said. “Everyone talks about last year and all the strikeouts, but let’s be honest, the consistency wasn’t good. It was all or nothing. I was going out there punching out 12, or I was giving up six. For me, I would rather be a little more consistent and fill up innings. Strikeouts are cool. I get it. It’s like hitting home runs. But I think sometimes you can get too caught up in looking at strikeouts. At the end of the day, if you go seven innings and give up one run, it doesn’t matter if you punched out 12 or punched out four. It’s the same –– not to mention the fact that having a good defense behind you, guys you trust, takes off a little bit of pressure, deep counts, pitch counts. That’s what we’re trying to avoid.”

So Sale here pretty much confirms that he’s purposely holding back and ‘pitching to contact’. I’m not exactly thrilled with that, because he did it before his last season in Chicago and not only did it not improve his consistency (he pretty much alternated good months with awful ones), he ended up with less than ace like stats that year (3.4 era). He also struggled in September again too, so it didn’t help there. He started that year really strong too, not unlike this year.

Pedro never tinkered with his approach like that, he pitched for strikeouts (he infamously once said ‘it’s my fault I let them hit it’ in reference to not blaming his teammates for errors). I really don’t think Sale should either. He’s at his best when striking out guys. Obviously it remains to see how this plays out the rest of the year, but I think it’s the wrong approach. It’s wasting his best talent as a pitcher IMO.
 

Reverend

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https://www.weei.com/blogs/alex-reimer/chris-sale-omf-talks-about-changing-his-pitching-approach-season

“Longevity is the key –– longevity and consistency,” he said. “Everyone talks about last year and all the strikeouts, but let’s be honest, the consistency wasn’t good. It was all or nothing. I was going out there punching out 12, or I was giving up six. For me, I would rather be a little more consistent and fill up innings. Strikeouts are cool. I get it. It’s like hitting home runs. But I think sometimes you can get too caught up in looking at strikeouts. At the end of the day, if you go seven innings and give up one run, it doesn’t matter if you punched out 12 or punched out four. It’s the same –– not to mention the fact that having a good defense behind you, guys you trust, takes off a little bit of pressure, deep counts, pitch counts. That’s what we’re trying to avoid.”

So Sale here pretty much confirms that he’s purposely holding back and ‘pitching to contact’. I’m not exactly thrilled with that, because he did it before his last season in Chicago and not only did it not improve his consistency (he pretty much alternated good months with awful ones), he ended up with less than ace like stats that year (3.4 era). He also struggled in September again too, so it didn’t help there. He started that year really strong too, not unlike this year.

Pedro never tinkered with his approach like that, he pitched for strikeouts (he infamously once said ‘it’s my fault I let them hit it’ in reference to not blaming his teammates for errors). I really don’t think Sale should either. He’s at his best when striking out guys. Obviously it remains to see how this plays out the rest of the year, but I think it’s the wrong approach. It’s wasting his best talent as a pitcher IMO.
Are you a Red Sox fan as well as a Sales fan, or no?

All are welcome, but I'm curious.
 
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