The sixers and building a winner

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TheRooster

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I firmly believe Simmons can handle the ball a ton in the half court without being forced to advance the ball on every, or even most possessions. The wear and tear of an even moderately intense 50-60 foot dribble advancement on a guy his size seems excessive and long-term detrimental. Why not pair him with someone like Fultz, especially since Fultz is believed to be a strong outside shooter?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I can't believe this has to be said, but none of Hayward, Horford, Durant or KG are point guards, or true primary ballhandlers. They're great two-way players who can do defend multiple positions, create their own shot and pass decently enough to create mismatches on offense. Philly has a pretty damn exciting guy like that already in Embiid.

The questions regarding whether Harden and Paul would be effective together are more on point here. Obviously those guys are more of known quantities and Harden has some experience playing off-ball, but the same issue of maximizing value was raised by lots of people after the trade. I think Houston will be fine when CP gets back, for what it's worth, so maybe that'll be a best-case template.
Fair enough but the point that I and others (I think) were trying to make is that in the modern NBA, the lines have really blurred between who is a primary ball handler and who isn't. You will certainly see more than a few possessions tonight where Durant brings the ball up the floor and Curry is playing off of it. Ideally any NBA team has multiple players who can initiate offense depending on the situation.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Fair enough but the point that I and others (I think) were trying to make is that in the modern NBA, the lines have really blurred between who is a primary ball handler and who isn't. You will certainly see more than a few possessions tonight where Durant brings the ball up the floor and Curry is playing off of it. Ideally any NBA team has multiple players who can initiate offense depending on the situation.
I'm probably giving the impression that I think this is a bigger issue than I really do. I liked the trade for them at the time, I really like Fultz as a prospect, and the past two months haven't done too much to change my opinion of him. My main point is that a big part of what makes Fultz such a good prospect is that a team could just hand him the keys to their offense and let him run the show, but that may not be as valuable to a team that has a guy like Simmons than it would be to, say, the Knicks. Part of this is coming from just how impressed I've been with Simmons- if I'm the Sixers, I want him setting up the offense whenever he's on the court. The college version of Fultz could certainly still bring a ton of value to Philly, even if he's playing off-ball 40% of the time, I just haven't really seen him play off-ball much because he's so good with the ball in his hands that he has rarely been asked to do it.

Maybe we have different definitions of "primary" ball handler, because to me none of the guys cited really blur the lines. KD, KG, Hayward and Horford are situational initiators. None of the them would be asked to run a team for an extended period of time they way Simmons or Fultz would. If Curry gets hurt tonight, it's not like KD is going to run point for the rest of the season. The Kyrie/Lebron comparison is useful. Obviously it would be a helluva "problem" for the Sixers to have if Fultz/Simmons approach those guys, but there were people who thought Lebron's usage was holding Kyrie back, and that he'd blossom running the show for the Celtics. And of course there's certainly evidence that Kyrie himself wanted to run his own offense, despite the success they were having. But, again, I think it's a pretty minor concern. If Embiid's health holds up and Fultz blossoms into Kyrie 2.0 without the disgruntledness, London can quote this after each championship.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm probably giving the impression that I think this is a bigger issue than I really do. I liked the trade for them at the time, I really like Fultz as a prospect, and the past two months haven't done too much to change my opinion of him. My main point is that a big part of what makes Fultz such a good prospect is that a team could just hand him the keys to their offense and let him run the show, but that may not be as valuable to a team that has a guy like Simmons than it would be to, say, the Knicks. Part of this is coming from just how impressed I've been with Simmons- if I'm the Sixers, I want him setting up the offense whenever he's on the court. The college version of Fultz could certainly still bring a ton of value to Philly, even if he's playing off-ball 40% of the time, I just haven't really seen him play off-ball much because he's so good with the ball in his hands that he has rarely been asked to do it.

Maybe we have different definitions of "primary" ball handler, because to me none of the guys cited really blur the lines. KD, KG, Hayward and Horford are situational initiators. None of the them would be asked to run a team for an extended period of time they way Simmons or Fultz would. If Curry gets hurt tonight, it's not like KD is going to run point for the rest of the season. The Kyrie/Lebron comparison is useful. Obviously it would be a helluva "problem" for the Sixers to have if Fultz/Simmons approach those guys, but there were people who thought Lebron's usage was holding Kyrie back, and that he'd blossom running the show for the Celtics. And of course there's certainly evidence that Kyrie himself wanted to run his own offense, despite the success they were having. But, again, I think it's a pretty minor concern. If Embiid's health holds up and Fultz blossoms into Kyrie 2.0 without the disgruntledness, London can quote this after each championship.

The Warriors are a weird example anyway as they have Green.
 

the moops

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I have to think Simmons is susceptible to full court pressure from ball hawks like Beverly, Bradley and the like. You'd like a second, potentially quicker ball handler to relieve such pressure.
If that happens, you just have Embiid or Redick or whoever bring the ball up and Simmons has a huge, huge size advantage in the post on those dudes
 

Devizier

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Yeah - I think we are still "hold" on Fultz. At some point there will be some evidence as to whether he will achieve his potential (or even move that expectation) - we don't have it yet.
I don't think you can "hold" on an injured player. An injury is always a bad sign for a player's prospects. Embiid and Griffin are exceptions to the rule.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Isn't the hope that Fultz can be Kyrie to Simmons Lebron? Fultz is best used with the ball, like Kyrie, but is supposed to be a pretty good spot up shooter with some development. Fultz could anchor a second unit as the dominant ball handler while playing off the ball with Simmons.
This. Part of why I thought Fultz would be a fit with the Celtics (back in the old pre-draft days before Tatum, Hayward, and Kyrie) was because he was a guy who ought to be able to play with or without the ball. His issues aside, there is no good reason to think he wouldn't be a fit with the Sixers and Ben Simmons. And we have no idea what to make of his issues yet - they may have no long term impact on him at all.
 

tbrown_01923

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Those injuries were a bit more serious.
That's the bit. I think we can hold on him given that it s 15 games into his career and there is no indication that this is serious. If this mid november turns into mid march... then we can reassess the severity.

Having considered the multiple ball handler question - I do wonder if an offense with multiple initiators is more difficult to implement and therefore teach / learn? If there are two initiators - does this require twice the sets? Fultz and simmons are so different, they can't run the same sets can they?
 

LondonSox

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Those guys are so few and far between that you are never going to structure your roster balance to accommodate for this type of pressure. Any 2-guard can help relieve pressure bringing the ball upcourt in certain matchups but a Simmons/Bev or a Simmons/Brad matchup is an enormous advantage for the Sixers moving forward with Simmons ability to post-up, score in the paint, and/or recognize double teams for easy layup dumps to teammates.

To me, they are an awful fit as they both need the ball to be effective. It's like the problems OKC is dealing with and what Houston likely will when Paul returns as we saw this in their opener when he played.
Completely disagree. Both Simmons and fultz show off ball instincts. Simmons as the roll man in PNR with fultz. Simmons is a weapon in transition and that two man game with embiid is fire.
But, as we saw Vs the warriors, the best teams sag off him and crowd the paint and in the half court the one thing the sixers don't have is a ball handling shooting threat.
Having two primary guys is great, one always on the court and no reason at all they can't fit together. Plus you run out of defenders who can handle this. Fultz has the matchup he gets it. And vice versa. Fultz is a spot up threat too. But one that can drive and create too. Surround those three with Covington and redick or another shooter.

The part that has to have the Sixers beating themselves up is how perfect a fit Tatum now looks like he would be at the 4 with Simmons and Embiid.
Well no because Covington is one of the best 3&D players in the league and just got extended. For now Covington is better than Tatum. Tatum may end up better long term of course.

Isn't the hope that Fultz can be Kyrie to Simmons Lebron? Fultz is best used with the ball, like Kyrie, but is supposed to be a pretty good spot up shooter with some development. Fultz could anchor a second unit as the dominant ball handler while playing off the ball with Simmons.
Yeah this basically. But it's more than that.

And re Tatum just to be clear I think Embiid, Simmons and Covington are better you can argue about who is the better fit with those three but I think, personally, Fultz and ball handling is the better fit than another big wing. Assuming fultz is ok obviously.

Now as good as Tatum has been I don't think the trade looks great, but ignoring the cost I'd rather have fultz. I love him as a prospect. Love him.
But would I rather have Tatum and another first round pick? Sure.

But I love fultz, think the fit is great. Fwiw the talk was all that colangelo was going to take Tatum at 3. Most people in Philly hated that idea.
Not that this looks great now lol.

I wonder if they have an eye on someone. They built this whole off-season and draft and embiid and Covington extensions on keeping a max contract cap space.
Plus can roll it easily to next year.
 

Manzivino

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I wonder if they have an eye on someone. They built this whole off-season and draft and embiid and Covington extensions on keeping a max contract cap space.
Plus can roll it easily to next year.
With the Covington extension finalized, Spotrac has them at ~66.6 for 9 players guaranteed. That's if they renounce Redick, Johnson and Stauskas and decline the options on Holmes and McConnell. Assuming they get the Lakers pick and it's no worse than 9th, that's at least another $3.6m cap hold; their own pick will likely be another $2-2.5m unless they stash him. An incomplete roster charge of .582 brings the total to ~$73m.

With the cap projected at $101, they'd need to move someone to clear max space, and unless they can convince Lebron or PG not to go to LA I'm not sure there's anyone they should jump on. Maybe Cousins if they think Simmons/Fultz/Covington/Cousins/Embiid would work defensively. I think they're better off rolling it, maybe they can shoot the moon and convince Klay in 2019 he can kickstart a new dynasty without leaving money on the table.
 

the moops

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Not sure who which podcast it was, but there was a hypothetical of them throwing money at Aaron Gordon next year. A Covington, Simmons, Gordon, Embiid foursome would be terrifying on the defensive end.
 

bowiac

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Not sure who which podcast it was, but there was a hypothetical of them throwing money at Aaron Gordon next year. A Covington, Simmons, Gordon, Embiid foursome would be terrifying on the defensive end.
I don't see much chance that Orlando doesn't match on Gordon.
 

Manzivino

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Yeah, with the way Gordon has played I’d be surprised if Orlando lets it get far enough that they have to match. They’ll offer him the max without a second thought as soon as the season ends.
 

LondonSox

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Sign and trade for saric maybe? But yeah I don't see it.
Bradley gets mentioned a lot.
Embiid, Covington, simmons, Bradley fultz would be interesting. I'm not sold on that though
 

LondonSox

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With the Covington extension finalized, Spotrac has them at ~66.6 for 9 players guaranteed. That's if they renounce Redick, Johnson and Stauskas and decline the options on Holmes and McConnell. Assuming they get the Lakers pick and it's no worse than 9th, that's at least another $3.6m cap hold; their own pick will likely be another $2-2.5m unless they stash him. An incomplete roster charge of .582 brings the total to ~$73m.

With the cap projected at $101, they'd need to move someone to clear max space, and unless they can convince Lebron or PG not to go to LA I'm not sure there's anyone they should jump on. Maybe Cousins if they think Simmons/Fultz/Covington/Cousins/Embiid would work defensively. I think they're better off rolling it, maybe they can shoot the moon and convince Klay in 2019 he can kickstart a new dynasty without leaving money on the table.
There's also okafor who will be gone.
I have gone through this a couple times they need to move bayless really. Should be possible if they are willing to throw in a pick.
Redick is the only one they might keep but not sure what will happen there.
 

Manzivino

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There's also okafor who will be gone.
I have gone through this a couple times they need to move bayless really. Should be possible if they are willing to throw in a pick.
Redick is the only one they might keep but not sure what will happen there.
That was the conclusion I came to as well, move Bayless' expiring deal as he's pretty expendable if Fultz is playing 30 a night; I'm not sure if they'd need to include a pick, he has value as a rotation guard and his contract is cheap.

Bradley stuck out to me as a target, it depends on his market though; I just can't see them giving him $17-20m per year and blowing all their flexibility on him. I could see Redick on another one year overpay if they decide to roll it over, I can't see them keeping him long term either. A lot depends on their needs based on Fultz's development this year and the Lakers pick.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sign and trade for saric maybe? But yeah I don't see it.
Bradley gets mentioned a lot.
Embiid, Covington, simmons, Bradley fultz would be interesting. I'm not sold on that though
I wouldn't want to be the one paying him depending on how much he gets and because of his injury history, but Tyreke Evans is having quite the comeback year and may come relatively cheap.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I believe that Ben Simmons has not made a shot longer than a FT this year. However, what does that matter when he can do this?


More here (including KD saying Ben is "something [he's] never seen before".
 

moly99

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Imagine if the Sixers had drafted Giannis instead of MCW and Porzingis instead of Okafor.

PG: Simmons (6'10")
SG: Saric (6'10")
SF: Giannis (6'11")
PF: Porzingis (7'3")
C: Embiid (7'0")
 

LondonSox

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To be fair, they probably aren't getting simmons if they draft giannis and porzingis.

Crazy game yesterday, the first half showed how good they may end up being, and the second showed how young they are and how great the warriors are today.
 
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Yeah that's not the 'what if' that is the scariest. The 'what if' that is downright frightening is if they had done nothing, drafted Tatum and kept that other high lottery pick.

They would be a playoff lock at this moment.
 

LondonSox

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Well they are playing like a mid 40 win team at the moment without anything from Fultz, their starting 5 has the highest net rating in the league and they have had one of the hardest schedules in the league, Tatum wouldn't be getting as many minutes as on the Celtics. I get you love Tatum, and I get he's been great, but are you playing him over Covington or Redick (and having to guard a much smaller guy)? So he'd be coming off the bench. So I think Tatum has a much clearer role and minutes post Hayward than he would on the sixers.

I've said it many times but Fultz is a better fit for what the Sixers are lacking. A healthy one anyway.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Well they are playing like a mid 40 win team at the moment without anything from Fultz, their starting 5 has the highest net rating in the league and they have had one of the hardest schedules in the league, Tatum wouldn't be getting as many minutes as on the Celtics. I get you love Tatum, and I get he's been great, but are you playing him over Covington or Redick (and having to guard a much smaller guy)? So he'd be coming off the bench. So I think Tatum has a much clearer role and minutes post Hayward than he would on the sixers.

I've said it many times but Fultz is a better fit for what the Sixers are lacking. A healthy one anyway.
I think Fultz is close to a perfect fit with the Sixers. With that said, Dario Saric is playing over 27 minutes a game for you guys. They would have room for Tatum.
 

the moops

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Yea, they could easily run a Simmons, Redick, Covington, Tatum, Embiid lineup out there.

But I agree, the pre-draft most likely outcome of Fultz is a good fit. Still too early to tell if that actually happens though
 

Cesar Crespo

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Are Philly fans worried about Embiids 3 point shot yet? He looked decent last year but it was only 98 attempts. This year it's an even smaller 49, but he's made 13 of them for a .265 clip. He's now at a .333 for his career but his sample size is so small it could go either way. I guess it doesn't matter too much because he's a stud regardless, just slightly less of a stud if he's not hitting 36% of his 3s especially on a team with Ben Simmons.

Still wish the Celtics could make a move for Richaun Holmes too, especially since the 76ers apparently have no intention on actually using him. He's making less than 2 million so salary isn't an issue. Nader and the Clippers pick, maybe. No idea what Holmes value around the league is tbh, but he had a good 2nd half last year. 24 year old big who can stretch the floor, block shots and play some solid D. He'd look good in Boston.

Granted I haven't seen much of him this year so maybe that injury is impacting his game.
 

bowiac

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Are Philly fans worried about Embiids 3 point shot yet?
I think it's basically impossible to worry that your otherwise totally dominant center may not also be a knockdown three-point shooter. This is like asking if Cavs fans were worried about LeBron's free throw shooting.
 

radsoxfan

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I think it's basically impossible to worry that your otherwise totally dominant center may not also be a knockdown three-point shooter. This is like asking if Cavs fans were worried about LeBron's free throw shooting.
Even less worrisome. Lebron can't abandon the FT entirely. If Embiid actually is terrible at 3's, he can just never shoot them and still be amazing.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Even less worrisome. Lebron can't abandon the FT entirely. If Embiid actually is terrible at 3's, he can just never shoot them and still be amazing.
Not if he's playing with Ben Simmons.

edit: He'd still be amazing but it could cause issues.
 

The Needler

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Not if he's playing with Ben Simmons.

edit: He'd still be amazing but it could cause issues.
I don't think there's a problem with his 3-point shooting. He missed his first ten, including 0-6 against the Celtics. He's shot 33% since then.
 

LondonSox

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Honestly it's the shot the other team wants him to take, the shot is falling in his face up game, which is more important for him. The 3 is just a perk. I think he's not a GOOD 3 point shooter, but because he should really only take them when he's WIDE open I think he'll hit at an ok clip, but yeah only should be looking for them when they play way off.
His worst games are when he falls in love with it. I'd honestly rather he left it and worked on it later
 

lovegtm

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I don't think there's a problem with his 3-point shooting. He missed his first ten, including 0-6 against the Celtics. He's shot 33% since then.
His fundamentals also point to the 3 being fine long-term: he's a decent to good FT shooter with a good mid-range touch. The 3 isn't critical for his game, but I'd happily bet on him being over 35% in a year or two.
 

LondonSox

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My favourite NBA analytics guy )Jacob Goldstein) has the Sixers at just under 50 wins and 3rd in the East behind the Celtics and the Raptors...
The rivalry could get spicy sooner than later.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Still wish the Celtics could make a move for Richaun Holmes too, especially since the 76ers apparently have no intention on actually using him. He's making less than 2 million so salary isn't an issue. Nader and the Clippers pick, maybe. No idea what Holmes value around the league is tbh, but he had a good 2nd half last year. 24 year old big who can stretch the floor, block shots and play some solid D. He'd look good in Boston.

Granted I haven't seen much of him this year so maybe that injury is impacting his game.
The Clippers pick will carry 4 years of cost control on a rookie contract while Holmes will be a UFA following next season. That is the type of trade that Ainge would nor should never make.
 

Koufax

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My favourite NBA analytics guy )Jacob Goldstein) has the Sixers at just under 50 wins and 3rd in the East behind the Celtics and the Raptors...
The rivalry could get spicy sooner than later.
The rivalry begins on Friday. I will be there as a witness.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Looking more like a 2nd round pick by the day.
According to Agent Bill Duffy the asking price has gone from two #1's to one #1 and a good player to the current price of a 2nd rounder with nobody willing to bite. At this point it seems that Colangelo is holding onto Okafor as salary filler in a multi-player deal by Feb 9th. After that a buyout would seem likely.
 

nighthob

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He was referring to the pick that the Clippers owe Boston, though I think that pick converts to two #2s.
 

Cesar Crespo

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According to Agent Bill Duffy the asking price has gone from two #1's to one #1 and a good player to the current price of a 2nd rounder with nobody willing to bite. At this point it seems that Colangelo is holding onto Okafor as salary filler in a multi-player deal by Feb 9th. After that a buyout would seem likely.
I was talking about Richaun Holmes, not Okafor? I was also referring to the fact that the Clippers pick is protected 1-14 in 2019 and 2020 and if it doesn't convey by 2020, it turns into a 2nd round pick in 2022.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Entertaining somewhat fluffy piece on Simmons here: http://www.nba.com/article/2017/11/27/morning-tip-ben-simmons-emerges-as-force-for-philadelphia-76ers#/.

Speaking of whom, according to BRef, Simmons has taken 262 shots. From his shot chart, it looks like he has made 10-ish shots total outside the lane (but two of the shots that appear to be outside the line are listed as 15 feet which could mean that the diagram isn't quite accurate but I'll give him credit for that).

That's pretty amazing for a person as effective as Simmons.

Simmons; Smart; and Ball - it's an interesting time for people who are interested in guys who can't shoot.
 

LondonSox

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Ball is not like the others and I'd for sure add Giannis to the no shot but damn good list

Smart is a roleplayer there has always been room for a superb defender but superstars who can't shoot are supposed to be impossible these days
 

Reverend

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Simmons; Smart; and Ball - it's an interesting time for people who are interested in guys who can't shoot.
Nice—I’ve been trying to articulate something like this for awhile, but as a relative newbie to the “new NBA” I wasn’t sure I might not be missing something.

It’s frankly fascinating. It’s like watching people discover the value of offensive line play in the NFL.
 

BigSoxFan

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Sixers beat the Spurs last night, and have now won three in a row, and 4 of 5.

A note form Liberty Ballers following last night's game:
  • Robert Covington continues to slump as of late, and his recent inability to play tough defense is making him expendable at the end of games until he gets his shot back.
https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/1/3/16848094/sixers-stay-hot-against-the-undermanned-spurs
In fairness, the Spurs were without Kawhi, Parker, Green, Manu, and Gay.
 

tims4wins

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Sixers beat the Spurs last night, and have now won three in a row, and 4 of 5.

A note form Liberty Ballers following last night's game:
  • Robert Covington continues to slump as of late, and his recent inability to play tough defense is making him expendable at the end of games until he gets his shot back.
https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/1/3/16848094/sixers-stay-hot-against-the-undermanned-spurs
Last 10 games:
3.5-10.4 on FG per game (.337)
1.9-6.8 from 3 (.279)

Lonzo esque. But you'd have to be a homer to prefer Tatum
 
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