The Raiders relocation thread (3/27 viva Las Vegas Raiders!!!)

axx

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Not necessarily about the Raiders, but seems like San Diego voted down the stadium deal. Thus the Chargers are likely headed to LA to share the new Rams stadium. So going to LA is out of the picture if LV fails.
 

Gunfighter 09

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LA Daily News relocation expert Vinny Bonsignore seems to think Spanos will stay at least another year after helping (with Kroenke, I imagine) Mark Davis get the Vegas vote approved.

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/20161108/bonsignore-chargers-down-to-last-gasp-in-san-diego-as-downtown-stadium-vote-nowhere-close-to-passing

The NFL covets the San Diego market and wants to stay there. Spanos, for all his flirtations with L.A. over the years – including the 12-month affair last year when the Chargers and Raiders mounted a Carson counterattack on the Rams’ Inglewood stadium proposal – wants to remain in San Diego for now and forever.

He just needs help getting a new stadium built there. Which is not unlike every other owner in the NFL when it comes to these sorts of things.

L.A., for everything it offers Spanos and the Chargers, is just a chip to play. An opportunity to leverage San Diego into action as a viable partner on a new stadium.

And leverage it will remain. But maybe not forever. In fact, there might come a day soon in which L.A. ceases to be leverage and becomes the only real option. That’s a discussion for another day, and certainly the good people of San Diego will have a big say in whether that happens or not.

For now, Spanos’ heart is in San Diego.

Always has been.
 

Vegas Sox Fan

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They slipped in a provision that if the Raiders do not move there is $300 million provided for a smaller stadium assuming UNLV can raise $200 million to cover the rest.
 

soxhop411

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The Oakland mayor’s office confirmed Tuesday morning that a framework deal has been reached to keep the Raiders in Oakland.

Mayor Libby Schaaf has reached a framework with a group led by ex-NFL player Ronnie Lott. According to Schaaf’s office she will be meeting with representatives from the county and the city council in closed session over the next few days.


“The mayor said this a.m. there is a framework that that has been agreed upon and now in closed session today (county) and closed session on Nov. 29 (city council). Both bodies will review so we know if we can move forward," the mayor's office said.

The Oakland Raiders did not immediately return a request for comment.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Mayor-Libby-Schaaf-Says-Framework-Deal-Reached-to-Keep-Raiders-in-Oakland-402478366.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_BAYBrand

@Gunfighter 09
 

EvilEmpire

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What does Ronnie Lott have to do with the ownership of the Raiders? Is he negotiating on behalf of Davis or something?
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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This is a pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm on an island, but can we not edit titles of threads based upon recent news? If the development is that momentous, it probably deserves its own thread.

I came into this forum specifically to check up on this news, only to see what appears to be a 5-page discussion on the topic already in progress... but nope.

@SeoulSoxFan ? @Dogman2 ? Am I OCD on this, or is it a legitimate gripe? 'Cause I loves me some good griping.
 

soxhop411

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This is a pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm on an island, but can we not edit titles of threads based upon recent news? If the development is that momentous, it probably deserves its own thread.

I came into this forum specifically to check up on this news, only to see what appears to be a 5-page discussion on the topic already in progress... but nope.

@SeoulSoxFan ? @Dogman2 ? Am I OCD on this, or is it a legitimate gripe? 'Cause I loves me some good griping.
I was planning on starting a new thread for this, but the Raiders have yet to respond, and given its the Raiders, there is no guarantee they will go along with this. Once the raiders agree to stay in OAK, then I think we can break it out
 

Gunfighter 09

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To quote ESPN:

The framework agreement does not include the Raiders, nor has Raiders owner Mark Davis agreed to stay in Oakland. The agreement would need to be approved by the Board of Supervisors and the Oakland City Council before the groups could move forward.[\quote]


Basically, Libby thinks they have private financing and released a statement that is really misleading. We don't know what they want from the Raiders or Oakland in exchange for financing a stadium, though I imagine it is a piece of the team. We also don't know what the stadium plan actually is. My fear is that the plan is for a small, non SuperBowl capable bandbox that won't help the Raider's revenue picture much.

Schaaf's hope is that Oakland just needs any plan better than the one they had last year and the NFL owners will force a Davis to stay in the East Bay.
 

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This is a pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm on an island, but can we not edit titles of threads based upon recent news? If the development is that momentous, it probably deserves its own thread.

I came into this forum specifically to check up on this news, only to see what appears to be a 5-page discussion on the topic already in progress... but nope.

@SeoulSoxFan ? @Dogman2 ? Am I OCD on this, or is it a legitimate gripe? 'Cause I loves me some good griping.
I did the same thing you did and clicked on the thread thinking it was a new thread with lots of discussion. I'd agree that the news itself fits in the previously titled thread and didn't need a title change. As you said, if it is momentous, a new thread is good. So, the gripe in this case is a good one.

I do appreciate Soxhop adding the recent news to this thread.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Is Sheldon paying Jerry Jones?

When casino owner Steve Wynn got before the Nevada Legislature to talk about bringing the NFL to Las Vegas, he specifically said two influential owners had told him the league is on board – and at least one of those owners says Wynn was spot-on.

“I would say, ‘Amen,’ ” Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones told reporters during the NFL meetings Tuesday. “Steve is a valued friend and Sheldon (Adelson) is as well. I admire Jim (Murren) and what they do with MGM and I just admire what Nevada, Las Vegas is about.

“It’s a compliment to the NFL that they’re considering supporting a team. And so, I think it’s a great opportunity for everybody concerned, and I’m looking forward to the future.”

When casino owner Steve Wynn got before the Nevada Legislature to talk about bringing the NFL to Las Vegas, he specifically said two influential owners had told him the league is on board – and at least one of those owners says Wynn was spot-on.

“I would say, ‘Amen,’ ” Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones told reporters during the NFL meetings Tuesday. “Steve is a valued friend and Sheldon (Adelson) is as well. I admire Jim (Murren) and what they do with MGM and I just admire what Nevada, Las Vegas is about.

“It’s a compliment to the NFL that they’re considering supporting a team. And so, I think it’s a great opportunity for everybody concerned, and I’m looking forward to the future.”
http://www.usatoday.com/wlna/sports/nfl/cowboys/2016/10/18/jerry-jones-raiders-las-vegas-oakland/92388930/

In other news, Libby Schaaf has been quite forward on Bay Area media with the fact that she will have an offer that tries to convince 9 owners to vote against Vegas, but that offer will include no public money besides infrastructure spending. Ronnie Lott has been much more reserved, noting in a radio interview that any deal with Oakland City and Alameda County (has to be both since they share the Coliseum) is still far away.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Raiders file paperwork for Vegas move:

"Today, the Oakland Raiders submitted an application to relocate their franchise to Las Vegas, as is provided for under the NFL Policy and Procedures for Proposed Franchise Relocations," the statement read.

"The application will be reviewed in the coming weeks by league staff and the Stadium and Finance Committees. The relocation of a franchise requires the affirmative vote of three-quarters of the NFL clubs."

The move was anticipated. NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported Saturday the Raiders would file their relocation paperwork within days. It is the first step in a relocation process that won't become official until the Raiders receive 24 votes from NFL owners to formally make the move.
 

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Gunfighter 09

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Can't believe Adelson called in so many favors to get that tax package through, only to have the deal founder over his ownership stake. Gotta assume he's got a plan to address this that enjoys the support of the league's usual power brokers.
You would think, but they seem to be very still pushing for the stadium, this is the President of the Raiders and key Sands man andy Aboud both saying the stadium is going to happen with or without Sands.


It think the answer to why Sheldon would not be trying to kill the deal even though his political capital made the public funding happen is that Sands is still going to help develop the property and have special arrangements for Sands customers with the Raiders. The Raiders will be making out really well if GS funds the other $650 and they own the land, but Mark Davis has never developed any major endeavor like this. He will need help, and I imagine that the Sands is that help.
 

genoasalami

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Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval’s office says the proposal now is for the Raiders to invest $1.15 billion and accept operating responsibilities. Suuuuuuuure they will.
 

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LAS VEGAS -- Casino mogul Sheldon Adelson has pulled out of a plan to build a $1.9 billion domed stadium for the NFL's Oakland Raiders to move to Las Vegas.

In a terse statement on Monday, Adelson declared that he had been excluded from talks before the team sent a lease proposal last week to the public board that will own the 65,000-seat stadium.

Adelson's name was not part of the Raiders relocation application, according to a source.

Adelson says his family and Las Vegas Sands "will no longer be involved in any facet" of the plan.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18588795/casino-mogul-sheldon-adelson-pulls-stadium-deal-oakland-raiders-move-las-vegas
 

Gunfighter 09

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This is the article to read, quotes below.

One of two things is happening. Either Mark Davis is one fuck of a good poker player and he bodied Sheldon Adelson out of the deal because he needed to in order to get the NFL to approve the move, or Davis really overstepped when the Raiders dropped. I think the most likely scenario is that Davis really does have Goldman Sachs set up to finance the $650M and that he winds up having to make nice with UNLV and the governor to get across the finish line.

https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/inside-sheldon-adelsons-withdrawal-raiders-stadium-deal

Here are what some observers are saying:


The real action was on the Strip, where two tough negotiators had been arguing for weeks over naming rights, stadium operations and more. There was friction, but a deal was still possible.

Then it happened.

The Raiders presented what Sands officials are portraying as a Pearl Harbor document, which The Nevada Independent’s Jackie Valley first reported: $1 annual rent and total control.

Adelson, chatting with Davis in his office high in his hotel, had no idea. Abboud, having chauffeured Badain to the meeting, had no clue.

The Sands snookered? Sheldon the sucker? The Venetian victim? For all intents and purposes, the partnership ended that moment.
Despite weekend attempts to salvage the deal, sources say, with Abboud and Clark County Commission Chairman Steve Sisolak trying to play peacemakers, a furious Adelson decided Monday to walk. “He said today, ‘I’m done. I’m out. I’m not negotiating.’” said one insider.

The Sands chairman, known as a negotiator with no mercy, told people he believed the Raiders and their partners-in-waiting, Goldman Sachs, had dealt with him in bad faith. And hell hath no fury like an Adelson scorned.
 

mauf

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One of two things is happening. Either Mark Davis is one fuck of a good poker player and he bodied Sheldon Adelson out of the deal because he needed to in order to get the NFL to approve the move, or Davis really overstepped when the Raiders dropped. I think the most likely scenario is that Davis really does have Goldman Sachs set up to finance the $650M and that he winds up having to make nice with UNLV and the governor to get across the finish line.
Another possibility is that Adelson moved the goalposts and tried to get Davis to give him a better deal (more equity, etc.) than they had discussed informally, prompting Davis to explore alternate sources of financing.

It sounds like the Goldman Sachs deal is going to be some kind of debt arrangement -- which makes sense, as buying equity in an NFL franchise at today's valuations without the ability to force a sale of the club down the road (which Davis would never accept) is more of a vanity project than any sort of reasonable investment. But that's going to be a big pinch on the Raiders' cash flows; I wonder how the other owners will feel about that.
 

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Another possibility is that Adelson moved the goalposts and tried to get Davis to give him a better deal (more equity, etc.) than they had discussed informally, prompting Davis to explore alternate sources of financing.

It sounds like the Goldman Sachs deal is going to be some kind of debt arrangement -- which makes sense, as buying equity in an NFL franchise at today's valuations without the ability to force a sale of the club down the road (which Davis would never accept) is more of a vanity project than any sort of reasonable investment. But that's going to be a big pinch on the Raiders' cash flows; I wonder how the other owners will feel about that.
The only thing about that scenario (Adelson moves goalposts) is that it's not clear when GS would have gotten enough info to provide a reasonable proposal, right? If Adelson moved the goalposts it was within the last week or so, seems like.
 

mauf

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The only thing about that scenario (Adelson moves goalposts) is that it's not clear when GS would have gotten enough info to provide a reasonable proposal, right? If Adelson moved the goalposts it was within the last week or so, seems like.
The legislative package passed in October. I assume there has been near-constant action behind the scenes since then.

You would normally expect Adelson and Davis to sign some sort of letter of intent before Adelson launched his full-court press to get the Nevada legislature to approve the stadium deal. An LOI probably wouldn't have kept Davis from backing out of the deal, but I imagine Adelson would be stomping his feet and talking about lawsuits if Davis backed out of something that was put in writing, even if it was technically non-binding. And Sheldon Adelson threatening a lawsuit would be a helluva disincentive for anyone else to jump into the deal with both feet.

What I'm guessing happened is that Adelson chose to defer negotiations until after the legislative package passed, rather than getting an LOI up front. This makes sense from Adelson's perspective; he had more leverage after legislative approval than before. Somewhere along the way (probably soon after the legislative packaged passed), Davis started getting cold feet -- either there was an informal agreement and Adelson moved the goalposts, or there were very different expectations of what a final deal would look like, or Davis grew concerned that his fellow owners wouldn't approve a deal that included Adelson. Or maybe it was something else.

Regardless of the reason, it's clear that Davis has been negotiating on two tracks for some time -- as you say, you don't put together a $650 million proposal in a week. What we've seen publicly is likely only the endgame of a drama that's been unfolding privately for a while.
 

soxhop411

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This is the article to read, quotes below.

One of two things is happening. Either Mark Davis is one fuck of a good poker player and he bodied Sheldon Adelson out of the deal because he needed to in order to get the NFL to approve the move, or Davis really overstepped when the Raiders dropped. I think the most likely scenario is that Davis really does have Goldman Sachs set up to finance the $650M and that he winds up having to make nice with UNLV and the governor to get across the finish line.

https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/inside-sheldon-adelsons-withdrawal-raiders-stadium-deal

Here are what some observers are saying:


Looks like Sachs want Adelson or no deal.
“@nathanfenno: Source: Goldman Sachs deal to finance Raiders stadium contingent on Sheldon Adelson involvement. Without Adelson, there isn’t a deal.”

https://twitter.com/nathanfenno/status/826505796615753728
 

soxhop411

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“@VinceSapienza: Just got off the phone with Goldman Sachs reps, who say GS had deal to finance LV stadium with Adelson AND Raiders. With no Adelson, no deal”
“@VinceSapienza: Adelson rep says, Adelson ”not angry, but surprised“ about not being included on LV stadium proposal ”Unlikely“ Adelson jumps back into deal”


“@BobNBC: Source: Goldman Sachs not committed to financing #Raiders Vegas stadium if deal doesn’t involve billionaire Sheldon Adelson. @nbcbayarea”
 

soxhop411

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“@SovernNation: Source at Goldman Sachs confirms to @KCBSNews: firm agreed to lend #Raiders $650m, only if Adelson was partner. That deal is dead. #Oakland”
 

InstaFace

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First off, great post Maufman.

For the purposes of this project, Goldman Sachs' money is probably not any greener than another big investment bank. Recall in 2010 when Tom Hicks' empire was falling apart and he had to divest both Liverpool and the Texas Rangers, he was spotted practically begging at JP Morgan. For debt arrangements this big, any bulge bracket could get involved. GS probably has done a ton of work for the Adelson empire and that relationship was more valuable to them than a little vanity deal for the Raiders. But the same would probably not be true of, say, Morgan Stanley.

This could also be a backdoor into a possible ownership transfer situation. If a bank puts up the $650 and it turns out Mark Davis can't nudge his margins enough to pay down the debt, then in any restructuring, it's the bank that likely is the senior secured party and gets to be kingmaker in deciding the next owner. The choice of that bank will thus matter to the NFL (as will those particular covenants - I wouldn't want to be negotiating those terms! Talk about BSDs on both sides of the table), but I imagine any bank to whom that's not an enormous amount of money would be fine in their eyes.

My read is that the deal is plenty salvageable without Adelson/GS, and that either Davis balked at terms that were "altered" Darth Vader style, or he did indeed have a separate track all along so that he truly had an option to jump into if his deal with the devil became unpalatable. GS pulling out doesn't kill the deal, so long as Davis has the Governor making the right calls for him.
 

Vegas Sox Fan

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I think it's possible there was more blow-back from fellow owners about having a casino mogul partner than Davis expected. However I think he's banking that those same owners would rather see a deal get done that has the most public money ever being put forward for precedent purposes. My wild ass guess is this is a public display to show those owners that it's either Adelson or no deal and see if they balk. If not, as others have mentioned, there is probably a play with other banks though that is less tenable for Davis.
 

Gunfighter 09

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The fact that the Raiders chose to leak that they had exchanged phone calls with San Diego, rather than leak that they gave Ronnie Lott or Oakland a call, tells us that the chances of the Raiders staying in Oakland long term are less than zero.

I also wonder if this is a result of Mark Davis fucking up the negotiations, or Mark Davis being stuck in a situation where the NFL told him it could not be done with Addelson involved.

I have no fucking idea where this is going. If it is just a power play by Addelson, nice choice of Super Bowl week to play that card. If Instaface is correct, and there are alternate path to funding, I am not sure the Raiders would still want to continue in Vegas with Addelson as an enemy.
 

Gunfighter 09

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If you care about this nonsense, former LA radio guy and now Las Vegas sports guy Joe Arrigo is the twitter account to follow, note that the first tweet was 24 hours earlier than LaCanfora and others reported it:

 

InstaFace

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For the purposes of this project, Goldman Sachs' money is probably not any greener than another big investment bank. ... The choice of that bank will thus matter to the NFL (as will those particular covenants - I wouldn't want to be negotiating those terms! Talk about BSDs on both sides of the table), but I imagine any bank to whom that's not an enormous amount of money would be fine in their eyes.

...GS pulling out doesn't kill the deal, so long as Davis has the Governor making the right calls for him.
If Instaface is correct, and there are alternate path to funding, I am not sure the Raiders would still want to continue in Vegas with Addelson as an enemy.
Well, I don't know too much about how Adelson operates or whether he holds grudges, but a few weeks ago it was reported that Bank of America has pledged the financing that GS withdrew from. And apparently there was plenty of interest, especially after Nevada passed the law authorizing the public financing.

It's possible we may have to reconcile ourselves to a world where Mark Davis, viewed league-wide as a dilettante in over his head, may have pulled off one of the most machiavellian moves in the history of sports ownership: He took on one of the world's most powerful billionaires as a partner, used his influence to get a state government to pass (frankly unpopular) legislation, and then ruthlessly back-stabbed that billionaire in order to get himself better financing and partnership terms once he had what he needed. Other than hating public financing of stadiums, I have to admire the whole thing.
 

Al Zarilla

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Might be a nit, but where would the Raiders practice in August when it's 108 degrees in Vegas? I don't know where the 3 Florida teams practice pre-season either. It is a dry heat (Vegas), but so is an acetylene torch.

Edit, Cardinals are the comp. for weather of course. Maybe they keep it indoors, but it's good to practice in outdoors conditions too. The field the Cardinals play on, the University of Phoenix stadium, has a grass field that comes in on rails for games. Wonder if Las Vegas would copy that.
 
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Gunfighter 09

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Might be a nit, but where would the Raiders practice in August when it's 108 degrees in Vegas? I don't know where the 3 Florida teams practice pre-season either. It is a dry heat (Vegas), but so is an acetylene torch.

Edit, Cardinals are the comp. for weather of course. Maybe they keep it indoors, but it's good to practice in outdoors conditions too. The field the Cardinals play on, the University of Phoenix stadium, has a grass field that comes in on rails for games. Wonder if Las Vegas would copy that.

Part of the deal is that training camp will be up at (cooler) altitude in Reno. I imagine they will build am indoor facility in Vegas. That aspect locked in the northern Nevada votes needed to get the funding for SB-1. $100M of the stadium plan is dedicated to building the Raiders a headquarters and practice facility.
 

Al Zarilla

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Part of the deal is that training camp will be up at (cooler) altitude in Reno. I imagine they will build am indoor facility in Vegas. That aspect locked in the northern Nevada votes needed to get the funding for SB-1. $100M of the stadium plan is dedicated to building the Raiders a headquarters and practice facility.
That makes sense (Reno), but it is at 4,500 feet, like Insta is saying.

Thinking about my own situation selfishly here, if the Raiders move to Vegas, do they still use up AFC CBS TV time slots in the SF Bay Area so I don't get same time Patriots games? Either way, at least the Raiders are good and fun to watch again. For 10+ years, they were a drag.
 

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training camp at altitude? You'd really want to have your @DEN game be week 1, then, huh? An interesting concept though.
The best combinations for where competition is, e.g. train at altitude / compete at sea level, live at altitude / train at sea level, etc., are still not quite sorted yet, I don't believe.

Which makes it even more fun... like, where should the players live if they want to optimize performance? A whole new monkey wrench in the work-life balance equation.