The NFL and the National Anthem
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
I don't. The NFL has much bigger problems with the game itself that I believe are hurting their brand.
Right, the anthem, veteran of the game carrying a flag, a flyover for a big game, moment to honor our proud veterans, etc are all recruitment opportunities, paid for by the government. They do nothing for actual veterans. Veterans don't need a moment of silence, but a good chunk of them do need a VA hospital system that is functional. Why doesn't the NFL do something about that?
And no, I don't think a person in a uniform is a hero because they put it on. They may be one for what they did in it. But so may be the person out of uniform who saved a child from drowning, or perhaps even improved the lives of millions by publicly demanding better treatment for an entire class of people.
It's laziness and confirmation bias on the part of the owners. When they see their season-ticket numbers going down, it's much easier for them to say "it must be those damn protesters...let's force them to stand!" than it is to seriously consider whether major rule changes need to be made to the game itself in order to win back viewers (including even more stringent rules re: causing concussions and simplifying the catch rule and other byzantine rules).
When this rule change fails to do anything about declining sales, the owners will just move on to some other straw man without addressing the actual issues.
I guess if the players stay in the locker room it will help the owners and maybe that's what they're banking on. Any scenario where the players are kneeling, the teams are getting fined, etc. is not going to be helping out the owners. I didn't see the amount of the fine mentioned but it will be interesting to see what that dollar figure is.
I'm a full-fledged NFL addict. I fucking love the Patriots, maybe even more than I love the Red Sox.
I've felt honest remorse about watching the NFL, though, with all the bullshit (the "...-gates"; the turning of blind-eyes to domestic abusers and murder abetters if they are talented enough; the God damn withholding of data about widespread, serious health damage that the sport causes; etc.; etc.; etc.) but fascism is the straw.
I think the sum of all of it equals rock bottom for me. It's time I quit.
I've felt honest remorse about watching the NFL, though, with all the bullshit (the "...-gates"; the turning of blind-eyes to domestic abusers and murder abetters if they are talented enough; the God damn withholding of data about widespread, serious health damage that the sport causes; etc.; etc.; etc.) but fascism is the straw.
I think the sum of all of it equals rock bottom for me. It's time I quit.
To the owners, this is about restricting the players' platform to express themselves on any kind of social issues. All they care about is not "offending" the fans and any possible affect to the bottom line. As is most things, this is all about money and power. It's disgusting.
So I look forward to every NFL team being fined every week...
§176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
§176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
- (c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
- (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
The delicate sensibilities of the economically anxious.
I'm out. I was originally going with the cowardly "watch until Brady and Belichick are gone" but I can't even make it that far. This league is absolutely pathetic and spineless
I'm looking forward to seeing players standing at rapt attention while holding a sign that says "End police violence" and seeing what happens.
I'm still on that bandwagon but man it's just getting easier and easier to make a clean break then. I have a few friends who gave up the NFL last year, principally out of general disgust, and all the shit they got to do on their fall sundays made me jealous.
I am still in this club (barely), and honestly wish Brady had retired after any of the last 3 Super Bowls.
I was just going to post the same thing, that the NFLPA recommendation should be for everyone to stay in the locker room. I think that if only a few players stay in the locker room and then enter the field later that those players are going to be targets for 'fans'.
I am a naturalized US citizen, and one of the things I had trouble with when I first moved here was the seeming obsession with the flag and the anthem.
Wow, good for Johnson. I'm sure all the ex-Jet VPs on park avenue have some very conflicting emotions.
Ok, first of all I would like to apologize if it came off as calling you a racist (I can completely see where you could get that), I don't know you, I don't know your beliefs outside of your initial post. I noted that it seemed that people were either upset because of who was protesting or what they were protesting. You were pretty clear that you didn't like what they were protesting...although in the end you admitted you were wrong about what they were protesting, so I'm not sure where we stand at this point. Do you believe that there is systemic racism within American institutions (law, government, business, education, etc.)? If so, do you believe it's appropriate to protest that systemic racism? Is it the place of the protest that bothers you? The style? The people (not their race, but perhaps their job, or their place in society, or something else)? Assuming you think it's ok to protest this issue, how/where/when do you think professional football players should do so?
Just wait til POTUS remembers he created this "mess" by making Woody the Ambassador.
Like I’ve announced earlier, I’ve reserved a few seats for y’all on the bandwagon
Wanted to ask about this tidbit in LogansDad's great post. Is this really true? Do we actually pay those rich old fucks to put on this dumb, jingoistic ritual?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/defense-department-paid-5-4-million-nfl-honor-troops
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2015/11/06/Department-of-Defense-paid-53-million-to-pro-sports-for-military-tributes-report-says/stories/201511060140
I think I'm with @dbn. More or less since Francona was fired I have been a bigger Patriots fan than any other team and I usually watch 3-4 games every week. But, fall is my favorite season and going outside is fun.
Not necessarily for the anthem itself, but up until 2015 the DoD did pay teams (including the Patriots) millions of dollars for various military-related promotional stunts like flyovers, color guard processions, etc. You can see the full list of payments here: https://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/12de6dcb-d8d8-4a58-8795-562297f948c1/tackling-paid-patriotism-oversight-report.pdf.
Supposedly those payments stopped in 2015 but I wouldn't be surprised in the least they just changed how the payments are classified or whatnot to conceal the fact that similar payments are still being made today.
Thanks, and holy shit.
Now I will google around for a box to check somewhere indicating that I want my tax dollars spent on veteran benefits rather than recruiting spectacles.
Now I will google around for a box to check somewhere indicating that I want my tax dollars spent on veteran benefits rather than recruiting spectacles.
Are some of you also finished with the NBA as well? Because this policy seems to largely mirror the one they’ve had in place for a several years now: it’s our(the owners) tv show/live event, and we get to say how we want it presented. On field/on court team employees will stand at respectful attention during the anthem. You’re free to express your social and political views in a myriad of other forums....... Look, I also think the league office and the owners are mostly a bunch of ass-hats. And probably should of just let this run it’s course, which it really already was until the repugnant swine who occupies 16 PA kicked it up again briefly last season. But calling this rule fascist and/ or racist seems over the top and hyperbolic. And I say this as someone who both supports and agrees with the viewpoints that led to the initial protests, and who also can feel his interest the league waning by the year.
I’m giving more and more thought to cutting the NFL cord. I’d like to be engaged with the BB/TB coda and still love watching the game, but this is not just fascistic BS, it’s ham-handed, Goodell-wrought fascistic BS.
To echo what others have said, I’m sick and tired of supporting an enterprise that turns a blind eye to the health of its players and quality of the game, but make a big deal out of choking the activist spirit out of its workers.
To echo what others have said, I’m sick and tired of supporting an enterprise that turns a blind eye to the health of its players and quality of the game, but make a big deal out of choking the activist spirit out of its workers.
The NBA allows and encourages it's players to speak out about social issues. Hell, the coaches do it, too. Since they are providing such avenues the players haven't felt it necessary to kneel during the anthem.
This is different from the NBA approach for a variety of reasons:
1) The NBA has not said they would fine teams or players if they don't stand for the anthem. They've only said that the league office would "determine" how to deal with any personnel who did so.
2) They NBA specifically said that individual teams could not fine players separate and apart from the league for anthem protests, which is the exact reverse of the NFL's policy.
3) For the most part (certain individual owners excepted), the NBA has a history of treating these types of issues much more appropriately and generally allowing players greater say on social issues. They do not have a history of blackballing players out of the league that protest the anthem, as the NFL does.
4) Similarly, the NBA does not have (at least as much of) a history of arbitrarily and capriciously issuing fines and other punishments with seemingly no regard for consistency or proportionality. The NFL's policy is just another avenue by which the NFL can now do just that.
That said, I still disagree with the NBA policy as well and would be interested to see what would happen if an NBA player did protest the anthem.
I don't believe this statement is accurate. I'm pretty sure that any such team fines would violate the CBA.
I have no idea what you're referring to here. Until the anthem issue came up, I saw no difference in how NBA and NFL players spoke up about social issues.
Didn’t numerous NBA teams/players take pregame shootsarounds wearing T-shirt’s protesting police abuses? You think that could happen in the NFL
A number wore hoodies after Trayvon Martin’s murder. IIRC, it was after Zimmerman was acquitted.
That was my read of the policy as well. The league will fine the team in the instance of a violation, and the team has the option to discipline players within the confines of the CBA. Also, I'm not sure I completely buy the narrative of the NBA being historically, significantly more progressive than the NFL. The sideline dress code policy for non participating players, enacted in the aftermath of the malice at the Palace, sure seemed to have some dog whistle, trying to clean up the "thug" image, racial undertones to it. And they harbored Sterling for many years before finally, correctly, forcing him out. I'm honestly not trying to defend the NFL here, or turn this into a whataboutism comparison of the 2 leagues. I guess my larger point is that they're all in the business of trying market their product to the widest possible audience. I'm not sure what the NFL did with this really falls outside of those parameters.
Looks like some NFL players wore shirts too:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/athletes-take-stand-protest-supporting-jerseys-290622?amp=1
You don't have to guess because it happened 22 years ago. How soon we forget Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. He was fined and suspended for one game, then pretty much blackballed by the NBA and had to play overseas.
Sure, different time and place, different leadership. And Silver has said the right things in terms of trying to foster inclusiveness. But let's not pretend the NBA has the moral high ground on this issue.
This is so so sad. Plus the line about Goodell having power to discipline players above and beyond this team fine. At least I thought I read that at the gym on the TV.
LogansDad amazing post a few pages back.
LogansDad amazing post a few pages back.
I was just about to bring that up. The coaches are working with almost all black players, and if they aren't sympathetic to the issues the athletes may complain about, they at the very least know that they gain nothing by taking a side against them. But I assume almost all of them are sympathetic. The league office also seems to be sympathetic these days, and whether that is because they believe they have a large black fanbase they don't want to offend, or they are just decent human beings is hard to know. But in the past the owners and league office have clearly not been so sympathetic. Abdul-Rauf and the dress code are clear examples of this.
As others have pointed out, context matters. Specifically, I am unaware of why the NBA has its current policy, but am reasonably confident it did not come into existence as a reaction to a protest movement by black athletes against police brutality. The NFL policy exists to stifle political speech protesting the fact that police in this country murder black people and there are no consequences for it nor is there any systemic effort to fix it. The NFL policy is, therefore, a racist effort to stifle black speech and implicitly supports the continued use of state force to murder innocent black people in this country.
I hope Chris Long kneels opening night when the Eagles are on that Thursday National TV game post SB.
I'd seriously consider kneeling in the stands at Gillette. Except I still think I have more contribute to society professionally and personally, and I do not even remotely trust Gillette security to prevent the inevitable attempts at pummeling me to death.
Go talk to an average person on the street and ask them what the kneeling during the national anthem protesters wanted. Initially, the story in the media was that it was support for BLM. Then, and this is a quote from a network broadcaster kneeling was "to protest inequality". No more clarification than that.
And, if you're protesting but it's not clear just what grievance you want redressed then you have failed.
The whole thing was ridiculous from every angle. Playing the "national anthem" before a sporting event is stupid anyway. I think it started in World War I to show that Kaiser how unified we were. 100 years later were still trying to impress the Hohenzollern family.