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The Nation's Tears: Volume II

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by jmcc5400, Feb 5, 2017.

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  1. loshjott

    loshjott Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    7,737
    Speaking of the nation's tears, the anti-Pats bias among the fans and opposing players is so strong that this is the 3rd year in a row not a single Patriot will be playing in the Pro Bowl.
     
  2. Reggie's Racquet

    Reggie's Racquet Member SoSH Member

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    5,213
    Head up man. We don't do this sh*t for the Pro Bowl.
     
  3. Reggie's Racquet

    Reggie's Racquet Member SoSH Member

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  4. mikeot

    mikeot Member SoSH Member

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    From comedian-masquerading-as-columnist Norman Chad: "The Patriots and their fans are so loathsome, I wish we could Brexit New England ... Is Brady the greatest quarterback ever? Five years ago he was in the conversation, now he is the conversation. So I will concede his place in NFL history if he will get the heck out of Dodge, crawl back to his supermodel spouse and stop tormenting us on the day of rest every autumn and winter."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...f74070bbdb9_story.html?utm_term=.80d2ce698912
     
  5. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    I do have to give him top marks for this line, though:

    "If the Patriots played ISIS for charity, my suspicion is no money would be raised."
     
  6. wiffleballhero

    wiffleballhero Member SoSH Member

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    This is pretty funny, but also I'm on board with the Brexit New England move.

    I've wanted a new country starting, say, east of Lake Champlain, down through Lake George and through the Hudson for a while. That makes for a nice natural border. An ocean, a long border with Canada, yet easy access to America's new border city of NY. I like it.

    I know, keep it in V&N....
     
  7. TrotWaddles

    TrotWaddles Member SoSH Member

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    Going to pick up my son at swim practice and I'm wearing a Pats sweatshirt. Big crowd of people at a soccer game next door. One of the parents goes "Oooh look at the new Pats fan."

    It was just one of those moments. I started to laugh. "I got this three Super Bowls ago. You're right...its pretty new. Just three years old."
     
  8. catomatic

    catomatic thinks gen turgidson is super mean!!! SoSH Member

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  9. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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  10. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  11. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Bruni's not wrong that mistrust of authority has swung past the point of usefulness in America.

    He should, however, take issue more with the attitude of fans who are reflexively unable to accept a loss (at all, nevermind with grace), and instead instantly pick the easiest target to make themselves feel better. Instead of, you know, participating in that same general decline in character and sportsmanship.

    And man, the whining over the roughing-the-passer call is bizarre to me, even by those subterranean standards. It was 2nd and 7 on a do-or-die drive. Do you think Brady fails to convert on 3rd and 4th down? Nation's Tears, indeed.
     
  12. Preacher

    Preacher Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    1,586
    The Saints also could have taken care of business in OT after winning the coin toss. Pretty sure Brady and Co. could have handled that pressure.
     
  13. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Obviously, it's fair to say that the Rams probably shouldn't be in the Super Bowl, as they benefitted from the single worst blown call in the history of the sport, a call which, if correctly officiated, almost certainly means the Saints win the game.

    But the Patriots? Pointing out Spygate is absurd. There was ONE CALL that was wrongly officiated that went for the Patriots. That was it. And I'm going to be a bit of a legalist here, but if you watch the play carefully, Jones *DOES* graze the face mask of Brady.



    The slo-mo starts at the 40 second mark of the video. You see that as Jones' hand comes down, it ever so slightly grazes the face mask. You see Brady's helmet move downward as Jones' hand swipes down. It's small, it's slight, it's nothing that was in any way egregious, but he absolutely DOES make contact with Brady's face mask. Here's the official rule designating a foul for contacting the helmet (from: https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-nfl-rulebook/#article-9.-roughing-the-passer):

    "an opponent forcibly hits the quarterback’s head or neck area with his helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder"

    Now, was it contact? Yes. Was it "forcible" contact? No. However, consider the notes at the end of the rule:

    "Penalty: For Roughing the Passer: Loss of 15 yards and an automatic first down; disqualification if flagrant.

    Notes
    1. When in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactic against the quarterback, the Referee should always call roughing the passer.
    2. See 8-6-1-c–d for personal fouls prior to completion or interception."
    So what the official saw was Jones' arm come down rather violently, and he saw Brady's helmet move. I'm sure he didn't see "forcible" contact because there was no forcible contact, but there WAS contact. And the violent swiping motion brought this first note into play. When in doubt... the Referee *should always call roughing the passer*. That's right there in the rules. For safety's sake, when in doubt, the ref should always call roughing. Even if it leads to some bad calls on plays that aren't really roughing.

    In other words, by rule, the official did what he was supposed to do.

    Moreover, on that same play, if you watch Edelman (which they never go back to by way of replay), you'll see him getting absolutely mugged going over the middle. No flag. So instead of a 15-yard roughing penalty, it should have been a 12-yard pass interference penalty. Or at minimum, a 5-yard defensive holding (or illegal contact) penalty and an automatic first down.

    This is not to speak of the numerous calls (or non-calls) that went the Chiefs' way during the game, which we've recounted several times in this forum. Some egregious ones too.
     
  14. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    C’mon, it was a bad call. No football fan wants roughing the passer called on that.

    The fact that there could have (should have) been a holding call on Edelman on the same play is a better response. Also on the very next play Berry mugs Gronk and there is no call. The Chiefs got away with a lot of holding in the secondary, Romo even mentioned it during the telecast.

    But the roughing the passer called was bad, it is OK to say it.
     
  15. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    I did say it at the top of my post. I've said it multiple times. But *technically* it was justifiable from an officiating perspective. Not my fault that the rules say, "When in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactic against the quarterback, the Referee should always call roughing the passer."

    I think the Patriots got a break there, but on the very same play they got hosed on a non DPI (or defensive holding) call on the defender mugging Edelman. And nobody can point to any other play in the game where the Patriots benefitted from a bad call.
     
  16. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    As was the non call on the pick play. As was the non call against NO on the Goff facemask.

    Bruni's column is absolutely atrocious and I am a fan of his work.
     
  17. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    But when you say it is a bad call but also technically defensible you are not saying it was a bad call.

    It was a bad call.

    Edit: we are in full agreement that on the whole there is no reason to think the officiating benefitted the Pats in that game. There were several missed calls that benefitted the Chiefs. I just think it is foolish to twist yourself into a pretzel citing rulebook passages to defend a bad call. The roughing the passer call was bad, and at the very least if that’s roughing then the Pats did get away with one against Mahomes.
     
  18. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

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    As you noted, the correct answer is that the officials missed a blatant PI/defensive hold call on the same play.

    Even Steven.
     
  19. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    It’s like people aren’t even trying anymore. Even some generally good writers are getting lazy. The Patriots’ success bothers people that much that now we’re being told that a bad roughing call on 2nd down in a game where the Pats converted a million 3rd and long’s is the reason they advanced.

    The whining if the Pats win on Sunday may be at historic levels. Everyone is just so triggered.
     
  20. BrazilianSoxFan

    BrazilianSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    It's not a bad call, it's a bad rule.
     
  21. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Well the rule is somewhat ambiguous right? Consider the two parts I cited:

    "an opponent forcibly hits the quarterback’s head or neck area with his helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder"

    and

    "When in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactic against the quarterback, the Referee should always call roughing the passer."

    Was there contact with the facemask? Yes. Slight. Was it "forcible"? Clearly not. So from THAT standpoint, I think it was a bad call. It wasn't forcible contact. And yet the referees are clearly instructed that if they are in doubt, they "should always call roughing the passer". ALWAYS. That's the default position. That doesn't mean it happens all the time. That doesn't mean that people WANT to see that called. I know I thought, wow, that's ticky tack. But if the refs see that hand motion and are instructed in that situation to call it, and they call it, well, aren't they doing their job as instructed?

    So I thought it didn't meet the "forcible" component, and yet clearly for the ref he saw enough to be obligated to call it. The Patriots caught a break and I think if that play was reviewable, it gets reversed. So from that standpoint, bad call. But I'm just giving you what the rules state.

    I'd agree. One thing is for sure: NFL refereeing is very inconsistent.
     
  22. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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  23. Dogman2

    Dogman2 Yukon Cornelius Dope

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    I really hope that person feels it was worth it now that they have been....


    Wait for it...




























    sacked.
     
  24. CantKeepmedown

    CantKeepmedown Member SoSH Member

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    For some ungodly reason, I decided to dip back into talk radio for a quick minute today. I caught some of Rich Eisen's show on Sirius. The very familiar, whiny voice of LaDanian Tomlinson was on with him. He said he can't see the Pats getting over 21-24 on the Rams D and thinks that the Rams will be able to score more than that. He cited the Pats unfamiliarity with McVay and the Rams, much like it was last year with Doug Pederson and the Eagles. He also said that Wade Phillips has enough history scheming against Brady and the Pats that they should be successful.

    Never mind that Brady is 6-3 against Phillips. He's averaged nearly 300 yards game. 21 touchdowns and 7 INT's. Granted, not otherworldly numbers from Brady, but hardly pedestrian. And we all remember the O-line issues the last time they faced in Denver.

    The sour grapes from these former players is hilarious. They want so badly for New England to lose.
     
  25. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  26. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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  27. Silverdude2167

    Silverdude2167 Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    2,049
  28. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    Deadspin will probably give him a column now.
     
  29. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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    More than arttention. Tom Brady...GoFundMe...kid may have struck gold.
     
  30. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    There's nuance here that you're missing.

    Does any fan want to see that called against their team on defense? No. It would piss me off.
    Was it a made-up, invented or phantom call? Also no - it was justified, technically, by the rules, but their interpretation was too liberal for most.

    It's borderline. Sometimes you'll see it called, it's not an outrage to have it called, but it's uncommon-to-rare for that little contact to result in a flag. It's in a completely different class than the Saints DPI play, or lots of other calls that are just unambiguously bad work by the officials.

    And on that technical point, the "violent motion towards the QB's head" really is a material part of the rule. I can't remember exactly where off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure I've seen that over-the-top hook-punch/slap called, even when they entirely whiffed. The point of the rule is to prevent anyone swinging for the QB's head.

    Basically that was like 60% bad call, as opposed to lots of other 90% or 100% bad calls. Saying "it was a bad call" lumps them all in together, and that's not a realistic evaluation of what happened.
     
  31. normstalls

    normstalls Member SoSH Member

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    Did you hear the whole interview? The most interesting part of the interview to me was that he basically admitted that he wanted to be a Patriot and thought he was going to be one. Seemed like he was pretty sure (at least in his mind) the Pats were gonna take him with the 6th pick, but instead San Diego grabbed him with the 5th.
     
  32. CantKeepmedown

    CantKeepmedown Member SoSH Member

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    I did not. I only had it on for 3-4 minutes while he talked about the game. That is pretty interesting.
     
  33. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    There should be an alarm that goes off every time that that game is mentioned and how the Bronco's D-Line had a field day. This alarm would immediately set off video clips of Stork and his head bob.
     
  34. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I wondered why anyone would choose New England over San Diego in 2000 and then realized we had Bledsoe and San Diego had a stew of Leaf/Harbaugh/Flutie in 2000-1. He might not have gotten a chance to play with Brady, however, even if New England drafted him. Butterfly effect might have meant BB calls a run play instead of a pass and Mo Lewis ends up far away from Bledsoe. To be fair, since it seems BB disliked Bledsoe's game and saw something in Brady, he still might have eventually played with him. Although I think the Pats' D is downgraded significantly without the attention offenses had to afford Seymour.
     
  35. simplyeric

    simplyeric aggressively nonsensical SoSH Member

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    Llook Llary, it's the Llandllord!
     
  36. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Yes, butterfly effect being what it is, if LT gets drafted by the Pats, they most certainly do not win the Super Bowl in 2002. But Brady would have found a way into the lineup eventually.
     
  37. Seels

    Seels Member SoSH Member

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    I miss Tomlinson. One of my favorite moments of the entire dynasty is him riding the bench pouting. For as much shit as guys like Marino and Manning took for showing up small in the playoffs, no one has ever looked worse doing it than LT.
     
  38. Adrian's Dome

    Adrian's Dome Member SoSH Member

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    Same day Rivers played (and played well) on a torn ACL if I recall correctly.

    Tomlinson's whining from that era will never get old, he was at consistently at Marshall Faulkian levels of salt.
     
  39. rodderick

    rodderick Member SoSH Member

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    Nah. Rivers tore his ACL that game and was replaced by Billy Volek. He played on it against the Pats the following week and didn't perform particularly well.
     
  40. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Not ht enfl but his uy says "Hi"

    [​IMG]
     
  41. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I'm pretty sure the all-time king of NBA players pouting on the bench in the playoffs is Scottie Pippen for refusing to go on the court when Jackson called Kukok's number for a game-winning shot vs.the Knicks in 1994.
     
  42. catomatic

    catomatic thinks gen turgidson is super mean!!! SoSH Member

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    That was the gist of my comment to him in the NYT. But it ran a little longer than that...
     
  43. Bergs

    Bergs Member SoSH Member

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    Speaking of butterfly effects....man...Pippen, Hugh Hollins, and the Jordan comeback. Who knows how that all would have played out.
     
  44. wiffleballhero

    wiffleballhero Member SoSH Member

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    The thing is, in the last few weeks, Deadspin has been sort of hilarious with Onion level football articles. Their 'take downs' of the Pats have slipped into being obviously ironic, no?
     
  45. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    A bad call is one that you need to see on film a few times to see that you got wrong.

    An exceptionally bad call is one that you know is wrong the first time you watch the tape. This, like the Saints play, is in that category.
     
  46. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    You didn't even need a replay for the Rams-Saints PI play. It was obvious the moment it happened.
     
  47. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    I would call the former simply an "incorrect call". No matter what we do with replay and related gimmicks, there will always be a degree of error, which to some extent we have to live with unless we want 7 hour games.

    The second category, the exceptionally bad call, could be fixed by a game speed replay review. When it's that obvious, no harm is done in reversing the call on the field. Save the endless parsing of rules and 20 minutes of slow motion replay review for training the officials to do better.
     
  48. amlothi

    amlothi Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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  49. Brand Name

    Brand Name thinks there's no 'i' in denial Staff Member Dope Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    SUPER BOWL FUCKING CHAMPS MEANS A NEW THREAD OF TEAR BASKING!
     
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