The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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bankshot1

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My test is is "you need to win this game, who do you want at QB?

I like Brady, will accept Montana, and can understand Rodgers (only on the basis of his uncanny Hail Mary ability) any name other than that, you're just jerking around.
 

Al Zarilla

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What would Brady do with Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Roger Craig? Montana is the prime example of a system quarterback. Still he did come through when they needed him to.
I loved John Taylor...faster and more explosive than Rice, but of course, Rice just outlasted everybody in terms of years, catches, you name it. Craig was really unique with his catching and rushing ability. That high knees action! Joe had a couple of real good tight ends in Russ Francis and Brent Jones too. No complaints about Gronk. SF with Joe: too many weapons. Tom has definitely done more with less.
 

rodderick

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My test is is "you need to win this game, who do you want at QB?

I like Brady, will accept Montana, and can understand Rodgers (only on the basis of his uncanny Hail Mary ability) any name other than that, you're just jerking around.
No way in hell I'm taking Rodgers at this point. Dude has yet to show any ability to overcome adversity, if the opponent gets a lead in the second half I pretty much know I'm done. I'd take Peyton and Elway before I consider Rodgers.

If I need a QB for one play, then he'd be my top choice.
 

Leather

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Super Nomario

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That's remarkably few for a quarterback who has played as long as Rodgers. Andy Dalton has as many game-winning drives and more fourth-quarter comebacks. Matthew Stafford is way ahead of him in both categories. Heck, Derek Carr already has more comebacks and he's only been in the league three years.

That's not all Rodgers' fault and obviously he brings a lot of other qualities to the table, but he's way behind the other GOAT candidates in this stat.
 

NortheasternPJ

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That's remarkably few for a quarterback who has played as long as Rodgers. Andy Dalton has as many game-winning drives and more fourth-quarter comebacks. Matthew Stafford is way ahead of him in both categories. Heck, Derek Carr already has more comebacks and he's only been in the league three years.

That's not all Rodgers' fault and obviously he brings a lot of other qualities to the table, but he's way behind the other GOAT candidates in this stat.
It's insane that Brady has 93 more games won than Rodgers and only 7 more losses.
 

Harry Hooper

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No way in hell I'm taking Rodgers at this point. Dude has yet to show any ability to overcome adversity, if the opponent gets a lead in the second half I pretty much know I'm done. I'd take Peyton and Elway before I consider Rodgers.

If I need a QB for one play, then he'd be my top choice.
Interesting to see Rodgers so far down the all-time lists for 4th-quarter comebacks and for game-winning drives.

Manning and Brady put up a 4th-quarter comeback about every 6 games, while Rodgers does it about every 14 games. Romo, Ryan, and Stafford each have 25 4th-quarter comebacks, with Stafford pulling one off every 4.4 games.

Manning and Brady have a game-winning drive about every 4.7 games, while Rodgers does it about every 8.4 games. Romo, Ryan, and Stafford are at 5.2, 4.3, and 3.9 respectively.

Elway had 35 4QCs {1 every 6.7 games} and 46 GWDs {1 every 5.1 games}. Montana had 31 4QCs {1 every 6.2 games} and 33 GWDs {1 every 5.8 games}.
 
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snowmanny

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No way in hell I'm taking Rodgers at this point. Dude has yet to show any ability to overcome adversity, if the opponent gets a lead in the second half I pretty much know I'm done. I'd take Peyton and Elway before I consider Rodgers.

If I need a QB for one play, then he'd be my top choice.
Well, it depends on the play you need:

 

Cousin Walter01

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Interesting to see Rodgers so far down the all-time lists for 4th-quarter comebacks and for game-winning drives.

Manning and Brady put up a 4th-quarter comeback about every 6 games, while Rodgers does it about every 14 games. Romo, Ryan, and Stafford each have 25 4th-quarter comebacks, with Stafford pulling one off every 4.4 games.

Manning and Brady have a game-winning drive about every 4.7 games, while Rodgers does it about every 8.4 games. Romo, Ryan, and Stafford are at 5.2, 4.3, and 3.9 respectively.

Elway had 35 4QCs {1 every 6.7 games} and 46 GWDs {1 every 5.1 games}. Montana had 31 4QCs {1 every 6.2 games} and 33 GWDs {1 every 5.8 games}.
Shouldn't 4th quarter comebacks be calculated based on number of opportunities? Guys like Brady and Manning don't have so many because they often played great all game and were way ahead, so a comeback wasn't necessary.
 

Harry Hooper

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Manning {45} and Brady {39} lead the list in career totals for 4QCs. But perhaps to your point, if Stafford keeps up his pace, he's in line to pass both of them.
 

BuellMiller

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And this gem: "The story also notes that Campbell “realizes now he should’ve gone rogue” and “spontaneously blitzed” Tom Brady at times during the Patriots’ fourth-quarter comeback."

Because I'm sure Brady wouldn't have found the receiver who's now wide open because Campbell went rogue.
 

Red Averages

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And this gem: "The story also notes that Campbell “realizes now he should’ve gone rogue” and “spontaneously blitzed” Tom Brady at times during the Patriots’ fourth-quarter comeback."

Because I'm sure Brady wouldn't have found the receiver who's now wide open because Campbell went rogue.
So easy to see how these teams fall apart after losing a Super Bowl
 

tims4wins

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And this gem: "The story also notes that Campbell “realizes now he should’ve gone rogue” and “spontaneously blitzed” Tom Brady at times during the Patriots’ fourth-quarter comeback."

Because I'm sure Brady wouldn't have found the receiver who's now wide open because Campbell went rogue.
Yeah I loved that. Way to be a leader. I'm sure the coaching staff will love this
 

Reverend

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Freelancing worked well for Jamie Collins and Brandon Meriweather. Everyone loved it. I don't see the problem here.
Right? After years of BB, I can't even see something like that without thinking of Yoda: "That is why you fail."
 

InstaFace

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Macklemore is a big Seahawks fan, so Marshawn Lynch is in his latest music video, and it pokes fun at both DFG as well as the SB jersey-theft incident.

 

Kliq

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At this point in time, which NFL teams/fan bases don't have a real dislike/beef with the Pats? It has to be less than half? A quick glance I think brings up Cleveland, Jacksonville, Tennessee, Kansas City, Washington, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, Carolina, New Orleans, Tampa, Arizona, Rams and San Francisco. I suppose it depends on how significant a beef is, but I feel like more and more we are saying "Of course X hates the Patriots, they are a Y fan."
 

streeter88

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I bet you can make a case for almost every team...

Rams are mad (though perhaps not the LA fans) becuase Brady beat the Greatest Show on Turf in SBXXXVI.
Arizona is mad because they were supposed to be good last year, but never recovered from their Week 1 loss to the Pats.
The Jags are mad because the Pats beat them in both 2005 and 2007 playoffs. 2005 game wasn't close, but in 2007, a roughing the passer call and a Tom Brady fake hand off to Kevin Faulk might sting?
Bears are angry because they haven't won since beating the Patriots in SBXX. They did get close in 2006; maybe the Patriots should have beaten the Colts who beat the Bears?
Titans angry about frozen playoff game in 2003, where the Patriots tricked Old Man Winter into providing a frigid 4 degree day, then beat the Titans at Gillette.
Kansas City mad about 2015 playoffs, plus maybe that they started TB12's "revival" in 2014 when they blew the Pats out in Week 4.
Saints are mad because BB didn't complete the quid pro quo trade this past offseason by letting them have Malcom Butler who was ready to sign with the Saints.
Carolina mad -- they want revenge for SBXXXVIII, when the Pats beat them.
SF is mad, because Brady passed their beloved Joe Montana.
Bucs are angry because in 2007, the Pats didn't avenge the Bucs' playoff defeat to the Giants.
Redskins mad because they have failed to hold on to a good QB for nearly 2 decades?
Even Cleveland's mad too, since they lost a good bag of balls in the Jamie Collins trade....

The other 2 maybe are a bit of a stretch.
 

gmogmo

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Shouldn't 4th quarter comebacks be calculated based on number of opportunities? Guys like Brady and Manning don't have so many because they often played great all game and were way ahead, so a comeback wasn't necessary.
Absolutely, it's the only way to look at ....what % of the time when down in the 4th quarter was a QB able to bring his team back to win.
 

simplyeric

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I bet you can make a case for almost every team...

Kansas City mad about 2015 playoffs, plus maybe that they started TB12's "revival" in 2014 when they blew the Pats out in Week 4.

Even Cleveland's mad too, since they lost a good bag of balls in the Jamie Collins trade....
KC is could also be agro about ending up with Cassel, who didn't turn out to be what they had hoped.

Same with Cleveland and Hoyer.
 

snowmanny

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How many quarterbacks have been at the helm for 8 scores in Super Bowls in 4thQ/OT that either tied the score or put their team ahead? It can't be many. You could probably count them on one
 

Harry Hooper

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Maybe a Dope could split out a "Quartebacks & Comebacks" thread for the relevant recent comments here?
 

simplyeric

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KC could also be mad about Pioli, and Romeo
Indeed.

Cleveland is mad because they freaking had BB as their HC
Well, Baltimore did, anyway. I'm pretty sure anyone remotely reasonable in Cleveland would hold that against Art Modell.
Are we talking fans, or teams? If we're talking fan base, the cities, then it's Cleveland not Baltimore. If we're talking ownership or the NFL, then sure, I guess Baltimore. But I thought we were talking about fans. (Kliq's post could mean both, I suppose)
Edit: the fans in Cleveland probably also associate Belichick with the loss of the Browns to Baltimore in '96. Not that it was BB's fault or anything, just that he was the coach at the time, etc.
 

streeter88

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Redskins would on principle hate the Pats for making their in division rivals NYG look good -- twice.

So that leaves Minnesota. I wonder if people in Minnesota hate anyone besides the Packers?
 

simplyeric

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Redskins would on principle hate the Pats for making their in division rivals NYG look good -- twice.

So that leaves Minnesota. I wonder if people in Minnesota hate anyone besides the Packers?
I have Viking fan friends.
They don't 'hate' the Pats but they resent them, for their success.
Not like 'we hate anyone who wins' just more like 'why can't we win now and then' kind of thing.

Also: Papi.
 

Brand Name

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So that leaves Minnesota.
Randy Moss trade? Patriots got 3-74, Ryan Mallett, for a washed up Moss and #223 in 2012, who would be marred by the caterer dog food controversy, and waived 27 days later.

Let's see what became of those picks: Vikings would trade that #223 with #138 to the Lions for #219 and a 2013 4th #102. #223 would become Trevor Guyton, never played a regular season down with the team. New England would later get #102, hard handed WR Josh Boyce, along with #52, #83, #229 in exchange for #29, Coradelle Patterson, a mostly solid returner, but a not the greatest outcome for this pick, given his high selection. Signed with the Raiders last March for 2 years/$8.5M, not a big loss.

Mallet was traded to New England for a conditional pick, wound up being 7-243 in 2016. This would be traded to Seattle for along with #147 for 6-225 (PS WR Devin Lucien) and a 2017 4th, #131, Deatrich Wise Jr. Since it roots from the Moss trade, what became of those Vikes picks in 2013? Well, #52 was Jaime Collins, #83 was Logan Ryan, #229 was traded with Jeff Demps to get LGBT in his first go. Ryan wound up being a great hit on a #2 corner given his slot, Collins' freelancing was very solid for a few years, with a particularly strong 2014, traded for eventually 2017's 3-103. This pick was traded with #32 in exchange for 4-118 (forfeited due to Goodell's self-inflation) and Brandin Cooks.

TL;DR: Patriots now have Brandin Cooks, Deatrich Wise Jr., and Devin Lucien currently resulting from some of the subsequent capital acquired through various trades rooting from the 2009 Randy Moss deal. The first pick made as a result of this deal and currently its last have both been Razorbacks, from Mallett to Wise.
 
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Kliq

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I guess my interpretation is if a fanbase has a legit reason to dislike New England other than the fact that they are very successful. There are probably plenty of Cardinals fans who hate the Pats, but their hatred is no different than a Saints fan, or Detroit, or Cleveland or whoever. For that true kind of vitriol I want there to have been something the Patriots personally did to their team that altered the way they felt about the Patriots for the next dozen years.
 

simplyeric

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I guess my interpretation is if a fanbase has a legit reason to dislike New England other than the fact that they are very successful. There are probably plenty of Cardinals fans who hate the Pats, but their hatred is no different than a Saints fan, or Detroit, or Cleveland or whoever. For that true kind of vitriol I want there to have been something the Patriots personally did to their team that altered the way they felt about the Patriots for the next dozen years.
For this you clearly have
Jets
Miami
Bills
Ravens
Steelers
Colts
Rams
Broncos
Chargers
Raiders
Seattle
Atlanta
Eagles
Panthers

Those are no brainers.

There are 14.
 

pedro1918

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Washington fans were butt hurt about this game for a long time. Many were particularly mad at what they saw as BB's disrespectful treatment of their very own Greatest Human Being Who Ever Lived, Coach Joe Jackson Gibbs.

In fairness though, as a resident of the D.C. region, I haven't heard much anti-Patriot sentiment coming from Washington fans recently.

Now Ravens fans are a different story.
 

moondog80

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For this you clearly have
Jets
Miami
Bills
Ravens
Steelers
Colts
Rams
Broncos
Chargers
Raiders
Seattle
Atlanta
Eagles
Panthers

Those are no brainers.

There are 14.
So, division foes/playoff foes/SB foes. Who hates us the most? I'd go with playoff foes. Deep down the Jets/Bills/Dolphins fans know they haven't had a Super Bowl worthy team in 20 years anyway, with or without the Pats. The NFC teams all have just one game each to be pissed about. But the Steelers/Ravens/Colts/Broncos, seems like we're paying them in epic games all the time, and wining more often than not. And I'm happy to say the Steelers top the list -- 0-3 against the Pats in the AFC Championship, including twice in Pittsburgh.
 

simplyeric

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So, division foes/playoff foes/SB foes. Who hates us the most? I'd go with playoff foes. Deep down the Jets/Bills/Dolphins fans know they haven't had a Super Bowl worthy team in 20 years anyway, with or without the Pats. The NFC teams all have just one game each to be pissed about. But the Steelers/Ravens/Colts/Broncos, seems like we're paying them in epic games all the time, and wining more often than not. And I'm happy to say the Steelers top the list -- 0-3 against the Pats in the AFC Championship, including twice in Pittsburgh.
I don't base this on extensive research but:
Steelers fans.
They hated us even before TB12 for the playoff losses in the 90's.
 

Ed Hillel

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I don't base this on extensive research but:
Steelers fans.
They hated us even before TB12 for the playoff losses in the 90's.
Weren't they 1-1 against the Pats in the 90's? Fog bowl Pats win and Godawful 7-6 loss in Pitt after Vrabel's strip sack of Bledsoe.
 

simplyeric

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Yeah you're right. The late 90's weren't what I remember. But, the same might hold true for Steelers fans.
I remember my college friends being really pissed about the 1996/1997 playoff game. And then I guess it was 2004?
When the Steelers won in 2005, they were already virulently anti-patriots. I went to pburgh to watch the super bowl with friends in 2006 (2005/2006 season). the hate was tangible. I think they had the same memory-fart that I had, because it was a little over the top even then.

I simply don't discuss football with them anymore.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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They beat the Steelers in 2001 as seeming upstarts that had no business coming into their house and beating them in the AFCCG on their own turf. Then they did it again, in a season the Steelers went 15-1, in 2004 and fucking embarrassed them.

That season also marked the 'dynasty' talk, which Steeler fans don't like hearing be ascribed to anyone other than their own franchise. Steeler fans I know also hate the Cowboys and 49ers for similar reasons, but before NE they were the royalty of the AFC and their status has taken a ding. My most ardent Steeler friend relented after our most recent drubbing of them and the new ring and finally admitted how amazing Brady and the franchise are, but he still had to add 'call me when you get six'. It's almost entirely about status for most Steeler fans I know.
 
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