The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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simplyeric

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I know Right?
I turned to my buddy and said "Down 28-3, If we can comeback this might warrant an ESPY"
you know that at half time BB was in the locker room just telling his team: "look, the first half is over, we're on the the ESPY's" and then Brady was in the huddle yelling at this guys saying "we're going to fucking win that ESPY...let's do this!!"

 

bakahump

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you know that at half time BB was in the locker room just telling his team: "look, the first half is over, we're on the the ESPY's" and then Brady was in the huddle yelling at this guys saying "we're going to fucking win that ESPY...let's GOOOOOOO!!"
I fixed it for you.
 

Reverend

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That reminds me:

Is Brady's position as GOAT solidified enough that we can stop pretending he has a good speaking/exhortatory voice when he delivers his speeches to fire people/teammates up?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I think he's fine enough in the huddle or maybe locker room because he gets so fired up and his teammates respect him enough - it gets the job done, awkward as it may be. But yeah, when he speaks elsewhere it's pretty bad. That video of him talking to the Michigan football team last year was kind of cringeworthy.
 

Reverend

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I think he's fine enough in the huddle or maybe locker room because he gets so fired up and his teammates respect him enough - it gets the job done, awkward as it may be. But yeah, when he speaks elsewhere it's pretty bad. That video of him talking to the Michigan football team last year was kind of cringeworthy.
Exactly.

Like, I cringed too. And then I saw that lots of people loved it and it got them totally fired up.

Blew my mind and I've been thinking about it ever since. Like, it's something to think about... how that shit works.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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It really is remarkable how socially awkward he seems, given his station in life. He's a big dork and when he does hang them up, I fully expect him to retreat to his private life and his business dealings. I don't foresee him ever sitting behind a desk in a studio. But he's our dork.
 

Salva135

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Can we please win it all again this year? Basking in all of the articles about Brady being the GOAT and other teams' fans just punking themselves over the Pats' offseason or simply bowing down never gets old. I want another summer of calm awesomeness to follow up last year. And maybe even another after that.

We've got some Steelers (and Dolphins...) fans to truly piss off left.
 

streeter88

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And we need to beat the NYG to shut up the Manningfaces and New Yorkers once and for all. I vote for a 19-0 season with a 42-10 SB52 win where somebody (ex-Jet David Harris maybe?) pile drives Eli into a pool of game-used blood and tears. That would just about do it I think.
 

TheoShmeo

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Honestly, five titles is already more than I ever thought I would see the Pats win. I started rooting for them in 1972 and for the years before Parcells, they alternated mostly between being a joke and horrible near miss kings. To the latter point, there haven't been many teams I've ever loved more than the 1976 Pats and Ben Dreith remains at the very top of my sports villains list. Die in a fire and rot in hell, Mr. Dreith. That they have managed to win five times remains almost unbelievable to me in that context.

So even talking about the kind of Super Bowl I need or want them to win is almost like an out of body experience for me.

That said, I very much relate to the point that another off season like this, with a thread like this, would be so enjoyable. Particularly this one, when the Pats have made seemingly every right move and the media and even opposing fans have acknowledged them as overwhelming favorites to repeat.

And I also relate to the desire to see a Pats blowout in a Super Bowl. Every game thus far has been down to the wire, and the Pats have never been able to have that prolonged period of celebrating while the game was still going on that I remember seeing the Niners and other teams enjoy. That would be fun. And lets face it. The last two SBs have been great games for fans of other teams. For me, they were an emotional roller coaster and not truly enjoyable until the end and of course in retrospect. The closest we came to knowing they would win prior to the final buzzer was the Iggles SB and even then there was the chance that McNabb would somehow uncork a bomb to improbably sink us.

But one thing I do NOT relate to is the desire to see the New York Giants in another Super Bowl. Sure, beating them would be great. More than great. I live in the NY area and am forced to listen to the chest beatings of their fans. (That I am able to remind them that their teams have quickly gone back to mediocrity while the Pats continue to win helps, however). But I don't see the risk-reward as adding up. I mean, losing to that dork of a QB again would be a slice of hell that I do not want to bear, and just the build up in advance and having to deal with cocky Giants fans for two weeks would be ugly. Hell, it took me about 5 years until I could listen to Tom Petty again. I know, I know, the reward would be delicious. I get it fully. And I think that the team that BB has constructed should crush all comers, including the Horse Shoe Up the Ass Giants. In the end though, I just don't want to take the risk and would rather they face a team with a fan base that is irrelevant to me, like Seattle or Atlanta.

Yep, having to face the Giants in another SB would be the epitome of a high class problem. It's just not one that I would choose.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm the opposite. I work in midtown and would love nothing more than for the Pats to paste this team in a game that matters. They beat us in 2008 because Brady was hobbled and their DL murdered our OL. And, oh yeah, the luckiest play ever and a bunch of other lucky bounces/no-calls. They beat us in 2012 because we had Gronk at like 40% and we had a horrendous defense. Now, the Pats are light year's better than that team 5 years ago and the defense is perfectly set up to defend Doofus.

They've already beaten us twice. A third one wouldn't change things at all but a win would help to shut them up.

Of course, having lived part of my life in TX, a destruction of the Cowboys in a SB is my dream scenario.
 

Ed Hillel

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I figure it fits here as well as anywhere, but check out Bart Hubbuch's Twitter, all he does is get into piss fights with Trump supporters:

Best thing he's done in a long time, sure, but the bar was never high. He's also pinned his ridiculous Deadspin story about Kraft and his "gambling ties," which is 3 months old now. Sad!
 

TheoShmeo

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I'm the opposite. I work in midtown and would love nothing more than for the Pats to paste this team in a game that matters. They beat us in 2008 because Brady was hobbled and their DL murdered our OL. And, oh yeah, the luckiest play ever and a bunch of other lucky bounces/no-calls. They beat us in 2012 because we had Gronk at like 40% and we had a horrendous defense. Now, the Pats are light year's better than that team 5 years ago and the defense is perfectly set up to defend Doofus.

They've already beaten us twice. A third one wouldn't change things at all but a win would help to shut them up.

Of course, having lived part of my life in TX, a destruction of the Cowboys in a SB is my dream scenario.
I would like to be able to think like you and of course nothing would be sweeter than obliterating that team.

But I think a third loss would be brutal in the moment and would only embolden their fans. Two can be seen as kind of quirky. Three is a pattern. Three is harder to slough off.

Meh, in the end, just get to Minnesota and beat whoever shows up.
 

bakahump

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the Pats have never been able to have that prolonged period of celebrating while the game was still going on that I remember seeing the FALCONS and other teams enjoy.
Fixed. Sorry couldnt resist. And yea a blowout in the SB would be the "Works Weekends feeding the Homeless" on a resume of accomplishments. Not at all necessary to be called the greatest ever but would still be damn cool.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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I would like to be able to think like you and of course nothing would be sweeter than obliterating that team.

But I think a third loss would be brutal in the moment and would only embolden their fans. Two can be seen as kind of quirky. Three is a pattern. Three is harder to slough off.

Meh, in the end, just get to Minnesota and beat whoever shows up.
A big part of the enjoyment for me of the SB experience is the 2 weeks prior to the game. We all know what that time was like during the DFG saga. Fucking miserable. I prefer future experiences not be polluted with noise or constant reminders of the past two Pats/Giants games.

Put me in the group that wants any other NFC opponent. I could certainly abide by crushing the spirits of Dallas fans or allowing Falcons fans to experience another nut punch loss.
 

BuellMiller

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and tbh, I wouldn't mind another ALCS victory over the Yankees, either.

And beating the Colts in the divisional round (with White, Lewis, Gilleslee, and Burkhead combining for eleventy billion rushing yards), and then the Steelers again in the AFCCG would always be fun (as someone who had to live in yinzertown for 8 years or so).
 

Salva135

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4 put Brady with Montana and got a lot of the "haven't won since..." fans riled up. #5 crushed all of the Montana fans. Now we need to start thinking bigger. We've crushed the fans of historical players, now it's time to crush whole franchises. Six is good, but we need 7. Let's do this.
 

Salva135

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The funny thing about 19-0 is that I don't think it's as difficult as people make it out to be. We lost a winnable game at home with a third-string QB playing with a broken thumb and then a winnable game against the Seahawks. Brady quietly won every game since.

The Pats just ran out of gas in 2007. The Colts almost did it, the Panthers almost did it, and we almost did it last year (in retrospect). But none of those teams faced the media scrutiny and pressure. I don't honestly believe they will do it for the sake of variance and the aforementioned pressure, but 19-0 really isn't as far-fetched of an accomplishment as people make it out to be.

I don't care about being the Giants anymore, they're just a footnote. Seven titles will do. And of course, Brady will have another contract extension.
 

Salva135

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The funny thing about 19-0 is that I don't think it's as difficult as people make it out to be. We lost a winnable game at home with a third-string QB playing with a broken thumb and then a winnable game against the Seahawks. Brady quietly won every game since.

The Pats just ran out of gas in 2007. The Colts almost did it, the Panthers almost did it, and we almost did it last year (in retrospect). But none of those teams faced the media scrutiny and pressure. I don't honestly believe they will do it for the sake of variance and the aforementioned pressure, but 19-0 really isn't as far-fetched of an accomplishment as people make it out to be.

I don't care about being the Giants anymore, they're just a footnote. Seven titles will do. And of course, Brady will have another contract extension.
 

edmunddantes

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19-0 just requires an insane amount of luck to pull off.

Even the 18-1 season required Rex Ryan to call a timeout, he's not allowed to call, and get it granted.

Wait... that's just Rex being Rex... give me a moment.
 

Leather

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If you give the Pats a 95% chance of winning each game (which is high), they have only a 44% chance of going undefeated.

EDIT: and that's just the regular season.
 
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Salva135

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If you give the Pats a 95% chance of winning each game (which is high), they have only a 44% chance of going undefeated.
Dry statistical analysis will always make it look worse. Multiple teams in the last decade+ have come close. Some good luck last year and this team does it. Again, I don't think it will happen but it's not that crazy.
 

Leather

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Dry statistical analysis will always make it look worse. Multiple teams in the last decade+ have come close. Some good luck last year and this team does it. Again, I don't think it will happen but it's not that crazy.
I think it is pretty crazy to talk about as anything more than a distant possibility, given that it has never happened in what is a very large sample size league-wide and includes some really good Patriots teams of relatively recent vintage, as well as some stacked Colts, Broncos, Seahawks and Packers teams.

I don't think, for instance, a 44% chance of an undefeated regular season is that low at all. If anything, it seems about 2x too high.
 

streeter88

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Given the odds are published for every game already, should be easy to calculate. I would guess it's more like 10%, and then adding in the playoffs and SB odds from last year would drop it to 2-3%.
 

54thMA

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Honestly, five titles is already more than I ever thought I would see the Pats win. I started rooting for them in 1972 and for the years before Parcells, they alternated mostly between being a joke and horrible near miss kings. To the latter point, there haven't been many teams I've ever loved more than the 1976 Pats and Ben Dreith remains at the very top of my sports villains list. Die in a fire and rot in hell, Mr. Dreith. That they have managed to win five times remains almost unbelievable to me in that context.

So even talking about the kind of Super Bowl I need or want them to win is almost like an out of body experience for me.

That said, I very much relate to the point that another off season like this, with a thread like this, would be so enjoyable. Particularly this one, when the Pats have made seemingly every right move and the media and even opposing fans have acknowledged them as overwhelming favorites to repeat.

And I also relate to the desire to see a Pats blowout in a Super Bowl. Every game thus far has been down to the wire, and the Pats have never been able to have that prolonged period of celebrating while the game was still going on that I remember seeing the Niners and other teams enjoy. That would be fun. And lets face it. The last two SBs have been great games for fans of other teams. For me, they were an emotional roller coaster and not truly enjoyable until the end and of course in retrospect. The closest we came to knowing they would win prior to the final buzzer was the Iggles SB and even then there was the chance that McNabb would somehow uncork a bomb to improbably sink us.

But one thing I do NOT relate to is the desire to see the New York Giants in another Super Bowl. Sure, beating them would be great. More than great. I live in the NY area and am forced to listen to the chest beatings of their fans. (That I am able to remind them that their teams have quickly gone back to mediocrity while the Pats continue to win helps, however). But I don't see the risk-reward as adding up. I mean, losing to that dork of a QB again would be a slice of hell that I do not want to bear, and just the build up in advance and having to deal with cocky Giants fans for two weeks would be ugly. Hell, it took me about 5 years until I could listen to Tom Petty again. I know, I know, the reward would be delicious. I get it fully. And I think that the team that BB has constructed should crush all comers, including the Horse Shoe Up the Ass Giants. In the end though, I just don't want to take the risk and would rather they face a team with a fan base that is irrelevant to me, like Seattle or Atlanta.

Yep, having to face the Giants in another SB would be the epitome of a high class problem. It's just not one that I would choose.
This is a great, great post. Never one to count my chickens and all that, but I want no part of that fucking hayseed Eli and the Giants in another Super Bowl, I wouldn't enjoy 1 second of the two week build up as all I'd see, hear or read is references to the first two nut punch losses, no thanks to that. ESPN would go find the car wash Tyree works at now and put him in their studio for two weeks.

I want no part of the Giants; imagine if they are 18-0 again going into that game?

Again, getting way, way ahead of things.

When I went to my first Patriots game at Fenway in 1968 I never dreamed that I'd have this problem 49 years later, but here I am, loving every second of the ride the past 17 years.
 

snowmanny

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Well if we're hoping and wishing I have a strong preference for them to get an opportunity to avenge the SB defeat to the Bears.


The Bears suck.
 

lexrageorge

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19-0 just requires an insane amount of luck to pull off.

Even the 18-1 season required Rex Ryan to call a timeout, he's not allowed to call, and get it granted.

Wait... that's just Rex being Rex... give me a moment.
And the Pats actually benefited from committing an offensive penalty in that same drive against the Ravens. It really does require a ridiculous amount of luck to go 19-0.
 

johnmd20

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The funny thing about 19-0 is that I don't think it's as difficult as people make it out to be. We lost a winnable game at home with a third-string QB playing with a broken thumb and then a winnable game against the Seahawks. Brady quietly won every game since.

The Pats just ran out of gas in 2007. The Colts almost did it, the Panthers almost did it, and we almost did it last year (in retrospect). But none of those teams faced the media scrutiny and pressure. I don't honestly believe they will do it for the sake of variance and the aforementioned pressure, but 19-0 really isn't as far-fetched of an accomplishment as people make it out to be.

I don't care about being the Giants anymore, they're just a footnote. Seven titles will do. And of course, Brady will have another contract extension.
It's never been done in the history of the game and only one team has even had a chance to do it. And the Bears in 85 had a chance but it was lost to Miami. It's difficult. It's extremely difficult, not impossible, but closer to impossible than it is to not difficult.
 

kartvelo

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The Pats were clearly losing steam toward the end of 2007. The last few wins could have gone either way, and the D looked like they were just about out of gas. They seemed to be winning games with smoke and mirrors (as really good teams often do). I was disappointed, but not really surprised, that they lost the SB. All it took was a team that played a little better than their previous opponents had. A couple of bounces and they could have gone 19-0, but a couple of bounces could have bounced them out early, too.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Brady quietly won every game since, including the epic comeback in the 2nd half of the Super Bowl that they probably lose 95% of the time after they were down 28-3.

It's close to impossible, which is why 2007 hurt so much. It requires a ton of game luck, and it also requires an insane amount of injury luck. But anyway, two titles since then have erased a lot of that pain, and I'm totally fine with 7 Super Bowl appearances and 5 wins if that's where it all ends.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Wow, people are seriously afraid of playing the Giants because of the logo on the side of their helmet?

We lost the first time because of a fluke play, tension/exhaustion for 19-0 and - yes, I dare say it - Coughlin outcoached our staff, likely in part because he knew BB better than perhaps any other coach in the league.

We lost the second time because, quite frankly, it was a bad matchup and they were the better team, given the injury to Gronk especially. I never expected the Pats to win in 2011.

I don't particularly carry any desire to play them specifically to avenge our losses, but I'm certainly not afraid to play them. It'd be fun to stick it back at the NYG fans, but frankly I'm not carrying demons over them.

Get back to more SBs, I don't give a shit who we play.
 

TheoShmeo

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Wow, people are seriously afraid of playing the Giants because of the logo on the side of their helmet?

We lost the first time because of a fluke play, tension/exhaustion for 19-0 and - yes, I dare say it - Coughlin outcoached our staff, likely in part because he knew BB better than perhaps any other coach in the league.

We lost the second time because, quite frankly, it was a bad matchup and they were the better team, given the injury to Gronk especially. I never expected the Pats to win in 2011.

I don't particularly carry any desire to play them specifically to avenge our losses, but I'm certainly not afraid to play them. It'd be fun to stick it back at the NYG fans, but frankly I'm not carrying demons over them.

Get back to more SBs, I don't give a shit who we play.
Afraid? Who said anything about being afraid?

It's what people actually wrote. No desire for the two week build up with the incessant Giants SBs theme. An assessment that the risk of losing to that team exceeds the reward of beating them. And as a point not made yet: if I go to the game, not wanting to be around douchey NY sports fans.

I can't speak for anyone else but as of now, with all the expected caveats, I would expect the Pats to beat whichever team emerges from the NFC, the Giants included. I just don't need or want that particular drama.

Separately, thanks very much 54th.

PS: And it can't be said enough: This is just spit balling and I will have no actual complaint about any opponent if we are fortunate to see the Patriots in SB 52. Just get there, please.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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Um...you did? You've said you don't 'want to take the risk', 'three is a pattern', 'reward isn't worth the risk' etc. No, you didn't use the specific word 'afraid' but you certainly implied it, as if they have some voodoo over the Pats.

I get that you live in NYC and I don't have to deal with fan aspect like you would have to, but like Big Sox Fan noted, the fans aren't going to get any worse if they beat us again. Who gives a shit if it's 3 instead of 2? The whole avoiding of one team - despite the years of change of players, coaches, management, etc - in any sport strikes me as pretty silly. Especially in this sample size.

Pre 2004, sure I could see it with the Yankees. But we are now the Yankees of the NFL and our demons should be exercised. I'd love to stomp the shit out of the Giants, but no more or less than any team and I sure as shit don't worry about trends or fans.

Bring it.
 

Reverend

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Dry statistical analysis will always make it look worse. Multiple teams in the last decade+ have come close. Some good luck last year and this team does it. Again, I don't think it will happen but it's not that crazy.
This is a pretty good working example of why humans invented statistical analysis.
 

TheoShmeo

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Um...you did? You've said you don't 'want to take the risk', 'three is a pattern', 'reward isn't worth the risk' etc. No, you didn't use the specific word 'afraid' but you certainly implied it, as if they have some voodoo over the Pats.

I get that you live in NYC and I don't have to deal with fan aspect like you would have to, but like Big Sox Fan noted, the fans aren't going to get any worse if they beat us again. Who gives a shit if it's 3 instead of 2? The whole avoiding of one team - despite the years of change of players, coaches, management, etc - in any sport strikes me as pretty silly. Especially in this sample size.

Pre 2004, sure I could see it with the Yankees. But we are now the Yankees of the NFL and our demons should be exercised. I'd love to stomp the shit out of the Giants, but no more or less than any team and I sure as shit don't worry about trends or fans.

Bring it.
Nah, nothing about fear or voodoo. It's what I wrote and others wrote. Risk-reward, preferring not to even go down the path, wanting to enjoy the build up more, not wanting to watch the game with NY sports fans, etc.

I feel as good as I have ever felt going into a season. I think the Pats will beat all comers (though I am not getting at 19-0 with that) and will be holding another Lombardi. I know that nothing is promised and footballs bounce in curious ways, yet I remain super confident. I just would rather enjoy the ride without another Giants psychodrama.
 

BuellMiller

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So ESPN did a "GOAT Index" on QBs since 1978, by polling 10 former coaches/execs/etc, like Mike Shanahan, Wade Phillips, Ray Rhodes, Mike Holmgren. Brady was #1, but was only ranked at a 86.7% rating (beating Peyton at 80% and Montana at 78%). He was ranked #1 or #2 by 9 out of the 10. Can anyone guess who had him ranked at #6?
Tony Dungy. I know surprising. He ranked Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway (and presumedly Peyton and Montana) ahead of Brady, claiming it was harder to gameplan for running QBs
 

Super Nomario

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So ESPN did a "GOAT Index" on QBs since 1978, by polling 10 former coaches/execs/etc, like Mike Shanahan, Wade Phillips, Ray Rhodes, Mike Holmgren. Brady was #1, but was only ranked at a 86.7% rating (beating Peyton at 80% and Montana at 78%). He was ranked #1 or #2 by 9 out of the 10. Can anyone guess who had him ranked at #6?
Tony Dungy. I know surprising. He ranked Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway (and presumedly Peyton and Montana) ahead of Brady, claiming it was harder to gameplan for running QBs
Dungy says he put Peyton and Marino at the top of the non-scrambling QBs because of their quick releases and because they didn't have dominant defenses.

Three of the 10 guys they interviewed coached Manning, (versus zero for Brady), and they still ranked Brady ahead of Manning by consensus.
 

johnmd20

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Why is it hard for some people to admit Tom Brady is incredible and the best we've ever seen? Ranking Peyton ahead of him is quaint. Ranking Elway ahead of Brady is obnoxious. Ranking Rodgers ahead of him is ridiculous. And Young played about 5 amazing years and I loved him but I'm not sure you can even speak of him and Brady in the same breath.

I won't go into Montana, he had his bonafides, (although he played on juggernauts and was surrounded by talent) but Brady is the best ever and it really shouldn't be that close.
 

Silverdude2167

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Former Colts management can not get over their hatred of the Pats.

MMQB did an "all time draft" that was 25 rounds of picking the best players ever to build teams along with a 1 round draft for coaches.

Polian was in this draft and had the third pick in the coach round. BB was still on the board and he went with Marv Levy and Tony Dungy (because he could not pick just one) ...

For note, BB was the next pick (by King) before being traded.
 

Prodigal Sox

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Former Colts management can not get over their hatred of the Pats.

MMQB did an "all time draft" that was 25 rounds of picking the best players ever to build teams along with a 1 round draft for coaches.

Polian was in this draft and had the third pick in the coach round. BB was still on the board and he went with Marv Levy and Tony Dungy (because he could not pick just one) ...

For note, BB was the next pick (by King) before being traded.
It really is true about the Colt's organization's bitterness. Polian was on Mike and Mike this morning and the discussion was around the current labor agreement and some of it's issues. The subject of Kirk Cousins comes up and Polian says "He is now being paid more than the best QBs in the game. Guys like Andrew Luck, Derek Carr, Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, and Eli".

No mention of Brady.
 
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