The Linebackers

bsj

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Edelman and Gordon are going to bolster the WR corps, but one area that I am tremendously concerned about is the LB corps.

Hightower seems to have gotten really slow really quickly, and beyond that, we don't seem to have any playmakers back there. Van Noy is a nice backup or role player, but thats all. Not a huge Roberts fan although he made a couple decent plays last night.

Junior Galette is on the street. Would he help? I'd wonder if they can bring him in for a look?
 

NortheasternPJ

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The only good news in that LB corp right now is that Bentley looks like he's going to be a very good player. His coverage on the INT last night was excellent and he can actually cover some one. The rest of them look like throw backs from the "STOP THE RUN!" 80's and not a crew that's designed to keep up with guys who can run.

It's amazing that the Pats have put an emphasis on pass catching backs since the Kevin Faulk days with guys like White, Dion Lewis, Michel (theoretically) who's design is to beat slow linebackers. Then the Pats put this group together of slow LB's who get beat by those exact type of guys.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Bentley made a play. Of course Stafford threw it right to him and a good pass goes for big yards, but a play was made none-the-less.

As just your average fan it looks like LB has become a position where there's a greater emphasis on speed over physicality. Bill hasn't adjusted to this.

Bentley's scouting overview from NFL.com:

Thick-framed inside linebacker with a taste for contact. Bentley's physical approach and ability to attack and defeat blockers make him an ideal candidate as a run-down thumper along the inside. However, Bentley has athletic limitations that hinder his effectiveness as an NFL finisher and he's ill-suited to handle coverage duties against the pass. Bentley lacks ideal speed and reaction time, but his size and toughness could make him a solid backup inside linebacker who could find reps down the line.
Pretty much sums it all up, really. "It's round 5 who's the best Elandon Roberts clone on the board, Bill?"
 

Harry Hooper

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When are the LBs arriving in Foxboro? It's been tough for the defense to play without them the last 20+ games.
 

Mystic Merlin

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There’s no help on the in-season horizon at this position.

Easily the most disappointing thing about the front seven is they don’t look any better, and you can’t fix a 6-10 man unit overnight.

Brown might get sent into roster oblivion with performances like that - Job 1, 2, and 3 for he and Shelton is not getting blown off the ball in the run game, which happened last night frequently.

Hightower is cooked as a stand up LB in anything but short yardage situations. I think they need to figure out whether he can play with his hand in the ground more frequently because he’s a liability out there right now. Van Noy might actually be their best all-around LB now.

They could win with this secondary, but the front seven looks so bad the unit is largely wasted.
 

kenneycb

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Junior Galette is on the street. Would he help? I'd wonder if they can bring him in for a look?
He's torn two Achilles and last year was the first year he played since the 2014 season. I imagine he wouldn't really improve the team speed.
 

BigSoxFan

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He's torn two Achilles and last year was the first year he played since the 2014 season. I imagine he wouldn't really improve the team speed.
There’s a joke to be made here but I’m too depressed to make it.
 

soxin6

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The team has been slow and overmatched at LB for the last several seasons, but this year they look even worse. When they played Seattle in the SB, they had a lot of talent at LB and on the line. Belichik got rid of Jones and Collins and never really replaced them with similar talent. Since the Seattle SB, the Pats have been looking for stopgaps to fill the holes in the front 7 and others cast offs just aren't cutting it. LB was a top need going in to this past spring's draft and the Pats took a RB in the first round. Between the draft picks taken by the league and the ones that Bill has whiffed on, the defense has gotten old, slow, and untalented.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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He clearly isn't healthy. There were a few times last night he was running very gingerly.
I agree, the stride looked short and restricted. Sort of how I feel when I try to run and I'm 54. Which makes me think his legs are toast and we're seeing the beginning of the end, the way Mayo just faded away.
 

RedOctober3829

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Everyone that watched the Patriots in the SB last year knew their linebackers were too slow in coverage. So Bill adds nobody in free agency and drafts an LB in the 5th round who is known for not being quick. The game has changed and smaller, quicker LBers are the way teams have to defend opposing offenses these days. Belichick preaches versatility yet his linebackers have none. They can't do anything other than defend the interior running game.
 

McBride11

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Derek Rivers...

13 snaps vs Detroit. Was showing promise (at lot) last year and some in the pre-season this year. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable and eases back in he can provide some speed. Get Flowers back. Have Bentley become more comfortable.
 

kenneycb

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He got hurt before the second preseason game last year, so not sure how much promise there actually was outside of him being very athletic.
 

Super Nomario

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Everyone that watched the Patriots in the SB last year knew their linebackers were too slow in coverage. So Bill adds nobody in free agency and drafts an LB in the 5th round who is known for not being quick. The game has changed and smaller, quicker LBers are the way teams have to defend opposing offenses these days. Belichick preaches versatility yet his linebackers have none. They can't do anything other than defend the interior running game.
They couldn't even do that last night though. That's the frustrating part - they have a bunch of guys (Shelton, Guy, Brown, Hightower, Bentley) who are supposed to be run stuffers and they got man-handled.
 

Jimbodandy

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Everyone that watched the Patriots in the SB last year knew their linebackers were too slow in coverage. So Bill adds nobody in free agency and drafts an LB in the 5th round who is known for not being quick. The game has changed and smaller, quicker LBers are the way teams have to defend opposing offenses these days. Belichick preaches versatility yet his linebackers have none. They can't do anything other than defend the interior running game.
This. Bill the GM hasn't addressed the LB problem for years now. It's one thing that I just can't get my head around. Even while winning two years ago, it was in spite of their crap LBs. And that was with a healthy, standout 54, who doesn't currently exist.

Remember when they brought in McClellin and Van Noy and they helped? That wasn't a good indicator. If those JAGs are an upgrade, your LBs suck.

Bentley is not terrible, nor is Van Noy imo. But that's if those guys are depth. If those two are Plan A, we're very weak. Roberts and Hightower can be timed by sundial at the moment, and Roberts isn't even hurt.

Bill had a crapload of picks with which to draft an impact linebacker and didn't bother. This is on him. Hope he can do something.
 

Super Nomario

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Tough to do your job in the box when your linemen are getting blown off the ball by 5 yards. Let's face it--nothing is working right now.
Yeah, I think the DL was more the issue last night. But that's a problem. And they've invested there - a first on Brown, a third for Shelton, decent money for Guy. And we know none of those guys can pass-rush.
 

RedOctober3829

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Yeah, I think the DL was more the issue last night. But that's a problem. And they've invested there - a first on Brown, a third for Shelton, decent money for Guy. And we know none of those guys can pass-rush.
The frustrating part is that we've seen better production from Brown and Guy. Shelton is new to the system and to my knowledge has never been a 2-gapper before. But the lack of fight from these guys is alarming. It's not a scheme thing it's a 1-on-1 I'm going to kick your ass every play and I know you aren't going to do anything about it type of thing. If they can't do something as simple as hold their ground on running plays they are going to be at home in January. It's that simple.
 

Super Nomario

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The frustrating part is that we've seen better production from Brown and Guy. Shelton is new to the system and to my knowledge has never been a 2-gapper before. But the lack of fight from these guys is alarming. It's not a scheme thing it's a 1-on-1 I'm going to kick your ass every play and I know you aren't going to do anything about it type of thing. If they can't do something as simple as hold their ground on running plays they are going to be at home in January. It's that simple.
I think it says something that Belichick's big move was picking up Shelton - he was not happy with the DL play against the run last year even though it didn't necessarily seem like a big problem. My supposition is that he figured if they can stop the run with six or seven, they would have numbers to deploy in coverage and control the passing game even with a slow LB group. It hasn't played out, at least in part because the DL still isn't playing well despite the investment. Maybe you're right it's a scheme adjustment for Shelton, but he better start playing up to snuff quickly because it's getting late early.
 

bigq

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I wonder if getting Chung back will help. He can play an in the box role. I might support taking a LB off the field and replacing him with a safety given how badly the LB play was last night.
 

Marciano490

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Yeah, I think the DL was more the issue last night. But that's a problem. And they've invested there - a first on Brown, a third for Shelton, decent money for Guy. And we know none of those guys can pass-rush.
It seems like the NFL moved away from them, but I miss us having a Ted Washington type nose tackle.
 

McBride11

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He got hurt before the second preseason game last year, so not sure how much promise there actually was outside of him being very athletic.
I just heard the reports and never saw him so I can't say either way. But isn't the 'very athletic' portion of your quote the important part? This thread, rightly so, is worried about the speed / athleticism. Rivers may be able to help in that role.
 

bigq

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Yeah, I think the DL was more the issue last night. But that's a problem. And they've invested there - a first on Brown, a third for Shelton, decent money for Guy. And we know none of those guys can pass-rush.
Isn’t DL types that do not pass rush part of the scheme/design? I don’t think there has been a good pass rushing interior d-lineman in a Pats uniform since Seymour.

In Belichick’s recent defenses DL is supposed to fill gaps and hold their blockers so that LBs can come in and make plays. I guess the system breaks down if the DL gets blown up by OL. Add to that that the LBs can’t consistently make plays and we come to the mess the Pats D is currently in.
 

Super Nomario

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Isn’t DL types that do not pass rush part of the scheme/design? I don’t think there has been a good pass rushing interior d-lineman in a Pats uniform since Seymour.

In Belichick’s recent defenses DL is supposed to fill gaps and hold their blockers so that LBs can come in and make plays. I guess the system breaks down if the DL gets blown up by OL. Add to that that the LBs can’t consistently make plays and we come to the mess the Pats D is currently in.
Yeah, that's my point - they've invested in run stuffers who can't rush the passer (which is a problem in and of itself, but as you note, partially by design) and last night they still stunk against the run.
 

kenneycb

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I just heard the reports and never saw him so I can't say either way. But isn't the 'very athletic' portion of your quote the important part? This thread, rightly so, is worried about the speed / athleticism. Rivers may be able to help in that role.
Vince Redd was very athletic but showed no promise, so no it is not. The NFL is full of athletic people that do nothing.

Random edit: Vince Redd was cut so the Pats could sign Nink. That worked out well.
 

bigq

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Yeah, that's my point - they've invested in run stuffers who can't rush the passer (which is a problem in and of itself, but as you note, partially by design) and last night they still stunk against the run.
Right. And there is too much recent history to suggest that last night’s performance was simply a fluke. I hope Belichick and staff can do something from coaching and scheme perspectives because it doesn’t appear that there is any relief coming in the way of LB personnel.

Having Chung and Flowers back may help to lighten the load for the LB unit. Maybe Rivers can help in that respect as well.

Really I think it boils down to Belichick and staff need to do their job and be better at coaching, scheming and making adjustments with what they have. The good news is it is early and there is a history of improvement as the season progresses.
 

McBride11

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Vince Redd was very athletic but showed no promise, so no it is not. The NFL is full of athletic people that do nothing.

Random edit: Vince Redd was cut so the Pats could sign Nink. That worked out well.
Right, but Redd was a UDFA and Rivers was a 3rd round pick, that reportedly showed promise last year prior to injury and somewhat this pre-season. His inactive status in the first 2 games was a surprise by most reports. Maybe Rivers is a bust, all I'm saying is there is a potential young, athletic, DE who MAY be able to help with the slowness the D is otherwise showing.
Otherwise BB is going to be trading some draft capital for someone else's mediocre LB.

That Redd - Nink fact is funny. Nice
 

Marciano490

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Yeah, that's my point - they've invested in run stuffers who can't rush the passer (which is a problem in and of itself, but as you note, partially by design) and last night they still stunk against the run.
This is what a keep coming back to. It’s one thing to have guys whose strength in one area causes weakness in another (fast, agile LB who can’t take on the run), but these guys seem all weakness. Nevermind the fact that they’re being coached up and put into position by the best mind in football.
 

Michelle34B

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I liked their linebackers over the summer, and looked to see who the Pats were going to cut. They've always been able to acquire good LB talent without spending a lot of draft capital. It doesn't seem like it now after week three, but Belichick is playing the long game as always and will have a scheme in place for this group.
 

tims4wins

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I was more excited for the 2018 draft than in many recent years. Maybe since the Hightower / Jones draft. I said for weeks the draft would shape what the next 3-4 years look like. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect them to pick at both spots without trading and go offense-offense. On positions where there wasn’t even a ton of need. Man.
 

Super Nomario

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I was more excited for the 2018 draft than in many recent years. Maybe since the Hightower / Jones draft. I said for weeks the draft would shape what the next 3-4 years look like. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect them to pick at both spots without trading and go offense-offense. On positions where there wasn’t even a ton of need. Man.
I don't know, they had pretty significant needs on the offensive side of the ball, too, losing Solder, Cooks, Lewis, and Amendola. Michel is already playing a lot and Wynn likely would be if he hadn't gotten hurt. I thought they'd grab a defender early, too, but they probably have more young guys on D than on O anyway. I would have liked to see them grab a LB and S in free agency / trade.
 

tims4wins

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True enough, with Solder and Lewis leaving they had need, but picking Sony was and remains shocking. Everyone was shouting from the hills they needed more speed at LB. It’s confounding.

I’m one of the biggest homers too. I said that SB would have been different if J Jones was healthy and if Wise didn’t get concussed in the AFCCG. I said that they had a lot of young talent that was still developing - Adam, Butler, Wise, Rivers, Valentine, J Jones, etc. That I saw a path to major improvement for the D without making any big moves. I’m not sure I believe that any more.
 

lexrageorge

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They do have their own 1st, two 2nds (need the Bears to start losing), and three 3rd rounders (two of them compensatory) coming up. Not a huge haul, but something that they could use to upgrade their linebackers and safeties in the 2019 draft.
 
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BaseballJones

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I think we all expected Hightower to come back and be..well..Hightower. None of us expected him to be about a fifth of the player he was justnone year ago. We talk about the Brady “cliff”. Well it seems Hightower completely fell off a cliff.
 

Super Nomario

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Would everyone make the Mack trade now if the salary could’ve worked out?
No. Mack's a great player but the defense has too many needs for one player to address. You go through the careers of Mack, JJ Watt, Von Miller, and they've all been on garbage defenses at various times, because one great player does not make a defense.

Not a chance. We’ll need those 2019/2020 1sts to draft more RBs we don’t need.
I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. Pats did need a RB with Lewis gone and Gillislee a likely cut. And Michel is playing a lot, tied for the team lead in carries despite missing Week 1. You can quibble with the positional value or the injury risk or whatever, but the need was there.
 

Jimbodandy

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No. Mack's a great player but the defense has too many needs for one player to address. You go through the careers of Mack, JJ Watt, Von Miller, and they've all been on garbage defenses at various times, because one great player does not make a defense.


I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. Pats did need a RB with Lewis gone and Gillislee a likely cut. And Michel is playing a lot, tied for the team lead in carries despite missing Week 1. You can quibble with the positional value or the injury risk or whatever, but the need was there.
Everybody watched this offense and defense last year and knew that we needed linebackers who can move. They could have drafted Barry Sanders with one of those first round picks, and some of us would have been wondering why Bill didn't draft or sign an impact linebacker.

It's fair to point out that Hightower's falloff is surprising (and hopefully not permanent), but this defense would still be awful with normal Hightower. Hopefully they can wave a magic wand and generate a pass rush, because the linebacker play is going to be a huge problem until it's addressed.
 

Mooch

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According to NFL Matchup, the Patriots are currently 4th in the league on Blitzes per QB dropback - 33.6%. Yet they rank 29th in the league in sacks. Given our lack of LB speed and pass-rush ability, this seems like a major scheme/playcalling issue that needs to be corrected immediately.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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According to NFL Matchup, the Patriots are currently 4th in the league on Blitzes per QB dropback - 33.6%. Yet they rank 29th in the league in sacks. Given our lack of LB speed and pass-rush ability, this seems like a major scheme/playcalling issue that needs to be corrected immediately.
Scheme has been a huge problem...they don't have the talent up front to run cover 2 but they ran it all game. Its early, but is Flores over-matched at this point?
 

joe dokes

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I think we all expected Hightower to come back and be..well..Hightower. None of us expected him to be about a fifth of the player he was justnone year ago. We talk about the Brady “cliff”. Well it seems Hightower completely fell off a cliff.
He reminds me of 2015 Mayo. Two seasons cut short by injury, then he returned and was, at best, mediocre.
The difference is that the team seems to be counting on Hightower this year more than the 2015 was counting on Mayo.
 

RoDaddy

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If he's not hurt, it might be time to see what we've got in Harvey Langi. Supposedly very athletic and fast, this is exactly what we need. Of course, the rest of his game has a long way to go but still, we desperately need energy and athleticism at LB right now
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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If he's not hurt, it might be time to see what we've got in Harvey Langi. Supposedly very athletic and fast, this is exactly what we need. Of course, the rest of his game has a long way to go but still, we desperately need energy and athleticism at LB right now
Langi is not with the team anymore. He was cut before week 1 and was not added to the practice squad. But he also hasn't signed anywhere else so he is out there as an option if they wanted to bring him back.
 

Rico Guapo

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If he's not hurt, it might be time to see what we've got in Harvey Langi. Supposedly very athletic and fast, this is exactly what we need. Of course, the rest of his game has a long way to go but still, we desperately need energy and athleticism at LB right now
He was very badly injured in a car accident last year, I don't think he ever fully recovered.

We need to be realistic and understand that Player X isn't walking through the door to help rectify the lack of speed and athleticism at the LB position, not this year at least. They're going to get gashed by RBs/TEs all season long unless the pass rush can get to the opposing QB, and that doesn't look like it's going to happen either, at least not consistently.
 

Super Nomario

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He was very badly injured in a car accident last year, I don't think he ever fully recovered.

We need to be realistic and understand that Player X isn't walking through the door to help rectify the lack of speed and athleticism at the LB position, not this year at least. They're going to get gashed by RBs/TEs all season long unless the pass rush can get to the opposing QB, and that doesn't look like it's going to happen either, at least not consistently.
For what it's worth, they have been about middle-of-the-pack defending RBs in the pass game, and top 10 in defending TEs. Honestly, those are probably the two things the defense is best at, compared to defending WR (bottom 10), defending the run, and sacking the QB.

EDIT: this doesn't mean LB athleticism isn't a problem, it's just not manifesting itself the way you would expect. They were getting killed by crossing WRs against Jacksonville, where rangier zone defenders in the middle might have helped them.