The Goat Thread: SBLII vs Eagles

Marciano490

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We're not owed anything, we couldn't execute. Bademosi was in the proper position, and couldn't make that tackle. We had two guys on Clement on that TD and Foles made the perfect pass while neither defender looked back to deflect the ball. We couldn't protect Brady on the penultimate drive when it mattered most, and he didn't check down for the easy first down. It all adds up to a loss, but the Patriots had every chance and were in position to win. So it goes.
 

heavyde050

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What about the first time out used on 3 and 6 with about 8 and a half minutes left on Philly’s go ahead drive.
If Brady is going to get knocked for not checking down, BB should get knocked for burning that timeout only to let Philly convert on third and long (again).
I have no problem calling the time out of the defense was competent. But with how the defense was playing should have just saved it.

Edit - this is just another crazy nitpick. The Pats got beat. Defense was awful and the offense picked a real bad time for a turnover.
 

tims4wins

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5-3 feels more right than 6-2, honestly.

One time Mark Sanchez won back to back road playoff games against Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Shit happens.
 

steveluck7

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What about the first time out used on 3 and 6 with about 8 and a half minutes left on Philly’s go ahead drive.
If Brady is going to get knocked for not checking down, BB should get knocked for burning that timeout only to let Philly convert on third and long (again).
I have no problem calling the time out of the defense was competent. But with how the defense was playing should have just saved it.

Edit - this is just another crazy nitpick. The Pats got beat. Defense was awful and the offense picked a real bad time for a turnover.
Funny, when that TO happened, I assumed PHI called it. I even made a comment about burning one too early and them getting uncertain / jittery. Quickly realized i was wrong!
 

drbretto

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All I know is we fucking gave up 41 fucking points to Nick fucking Foles which is in-fucking-credible & In-fucking-excusable.
I don't know why people keep pulling the "Foles is a nobody backup" thing over and over again.

Brady was a backup nobody 6th round draft pick before getting his shot. He turned out to be pretty good.

Foles' regular season numbers could well have had something to do with being a backup, or working out a few kinks. But he played extremely well in the Super Bowl. It's not like they sucked out there and the D was just twiddling their thumbs. He was making perfect throws all night. They had an excellent game plan, and he executed damn near perfectly. Give the man his credit. He earned it.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I don't know why people keep pulling the "Foles is a nobody backup" thing over and over again.

Brady was a backup nobody 6th round draft pick before getting his shot. He turned out to be pretty good.

Foles' regular season numbers could well have had something to do with being a backup, or working out a few kinks. But he played extremely well in the Super Bowl. It's not like they sucked out there and the D was just twiddling their thumbs. He was making perfect throws all night. They had an excellent game plan, and he executed damn near perfectly. Give the man his credit. He earned it.
If anyone had bothered watching the NFCCG, they would have seen that he played extremely well then as well, against a much better defense than ours.
 

The Napkin

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What about the first time out used on 3 and 6 with about 8 and a half minutes left on Philly’s go ahead drive.
If Brady is going to get knocked for not checking down, BB should get knocked for burning that timeout only to let Philly convert on third and long (again).
I have no problem calling the time out of the defense was competent. But with how the defense was playing should have just saved it.

Edit - this is just another crazy nitpick. The Pats got beat. Defense was awful and the offense picked a real bad time for a turnover.
IMHO the bad time out was using the last one after the 1st down run with 2:03 left. Would have thought the better choice would have been to let it run the 3 seconds to the 2 minute warning then call it after second down. Calling it when he did gave Philly the option to do an RPO or even a straight pass since the clock was going to stop anyway and I was a little surprised they didn't do so.
 

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IMHO the bad time out was using the last one after the 1st down run with 2:03 left. Would have thought the better choice would have been to let it run the 3 seconds to the 2 minute warning then call it after second down. Calling it when he did gave Philly the option to do an RPO or even a straight pass since the clock was going to stop anyway and I was a little surprised they didn't do so.
Yes, agreed. I thought with the TO at 2:03 Philly should have passed. Clock was stopping anyway and it's not like the Pats' D was going to suddenly come up with a pick they way they were playing.
 

AB in DC

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Yeah I was surprised to see Pederson go super-conservative there. I thought that was a mistake at the time, but the defense bailed him out
 

Three10toLeft

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Anyone else remember hearing on the pre-game show that BB gave the team an extra day off before Sunday?

I guess there is only so much practice can do, especially at this point. But with how the defense played, I don't think that extra day would've hurt.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I should also add, Pederson is going to get fellated to the end of time for the 4th down play call that was the TD pass to Foles, but can you just imagine the blowback if that was incomplete? They had Blount and Ajayi to run the ball, and Foles was more or less unstoppable when throwing. If that play hadn't worked (much like the Lockette inside slant Butler picked off, or the Hightower strip sack against Atlanta), they narrative would once again be "ZOMG the other team just locked up against the Pats!"
 

BaseballJones

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It's almost like crazy shit happens in the playoffs all the time! Blake Bortles is 2-1 in the postseason!

I seem to remember most of the country shocked that the Greatest Show on Turf lost to a backup QB a while ago. What was his name?
Ha exactly. Bottom line is that it's no shame at all....like NO shame at all...to lose to a QB like this in a one-game situation. This season the Pats lost to Alex Smith, Jay Cutler (!), Cam Newton, and Nick Foles. A mishmash if there ever was one.

In a one-game situation, quite often the lesser QB wins the game for a variety of reasons. It drives me nuts when Pats fans dismiss the other team's QB as if it's crazy talk to imagine that guy coming up big in a game. We see it all the time. The Pats have lost to more crappy QBs in the playoffs than they've won SBs.
 

MillarTime

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I should also add, Pederson is going to get fellated to the end of time for the 4th down play call that was the TD pass to Foles, but can you just imagine the blowback if that was incomplete? They had Blount and Ajayi to run the ball, and Foles was more or less unstoppable when throwing. If that play hadn't worked (much like the Lockette inside slant Butler picked off, or the Hightower strip sack against Atlanta), they narrative would once again be "ZOMG the other team just locked up against the Pats!"
Totally agree. Which is why i think Pederson does deserves all the hummers coming his way. He made the calls that most coaches can't bring themselves to make against the Pats. Those 4th down calls took brass balls.
 

steveluck7

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I should also add, Pederson is going to get fellated to the end of time for the 4th down play call that was the TD pass to Foles, but can you just imagine the blowback if that was incomplete? They had Blount and Ajayi to run the ball, and Foles was more or less unstoppable when throwing. If that play hadn't worked (much like the Lockette inside slant Butler picked off, or the Hightower strip sack against Atlanta), they narrative would once again be "ZOMG the other team just locked up against the Pats!"
Correct me if i'm wrong but, on that play, there was nothing stopping someone on the D from hitting Foles at the snap, right? I was screaming for it to happen. As soon as he paused, it was obvious the snap was going to the RB and Foles was either gonna do nothing or go out to catch a pass. Why not just drop him at the line and eliminate him from the route?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Totally agree. Which is why i think Pederson does deserves all the hummers coming his way. He made the calls that most coaches can't bring themselves to make against the Pats. Those 4th down calls took brass balls.
Of course they did. They also happened to work.

Throwing the ball on the 1 to Lockette likely took some balls as well. Calling a play pass when up 28-12 in the 4th quarter (and where a receiver was actually open) in order to salt the game away also took some brass balls. The difference is that Philly's play call happened to work, and the other two didn't.

It's a results-based assessment, not a rational/logical one. And that's perfectly fine, this is a results-based business. But I guaran-fucking-tee that if that pass to Foles gets knocked down or picked, then Pederson's decision to call that play is going to be flamebroiled for all eternity.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Correct me if i'm wrong but, on that play, there was nothing stopping someone on the D from hitting Foles at the snap, right? I was screaming for it to happen. As soon as he paused, it was obvious the snap was going to the RB and Foles was either gonna do nothing or go out to catch a pass. Why not just drop him at the line and eliminate him from the route?
Nothing stopping them from doing that except there was no one there to do so.
 

steveluck7

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Nothing stopping them from doing that except there was no one there to do so.
I guess my thought (unreasonable hope?!) would be that the whoever was lined up opposite the RT would peel off at the snap after identifying it. Probably asking too much in real-time.

I actually think that's why Brady paused a bit before releasing into his route. Looked like he wanted to decoy it because there was someone within striking / covering him distance once he handed off
 

DJnVa

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Of course they did. They also happened to work.

Throwing the ball on the 1 to Lockette likely took some balls as well. Calling a play pass when up 28-12 in the 4th quarter (and where a receiver was actually open) in order to salt the game away also took some brass balls. The difference is that Philly's play call happened to work, and the other two didn't.

It's a results-based assessment, not a rational/logical one. And that's perfectly fine, this is a results-based business. But I guaran-fucking-tee that if that pass to Foles gets knocked down or picked, then Pederson's decision to call that play is going to be flamebroiled for all eternity.
Imagine if someone sniffed it out and leveled him leading to Sudfeld playing.
 

j44thor

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I guess my thought (unreasonable hope?!) would be that the whoever was lined up opposite the RT would peel off at the snap after identifying it. Probably asking too much in real-time.

I actually think that's why Brady paused a bit before releasing into his route. Looked like he wanted to decoy it because there was someone within striking / covering him distance once he handed off
I was screaming at the TV for NE to use a TO when that play was unfolding. It was clear they weren't ready for it and if you call TO I doubt PHI comes back to the play. Combine that with the poor TO used with 2:03 to go and it was clear coaching was not at the top of its game in this one.
 

Kun Aguero

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I don't know why people keep pulling the "Foles is a nobody backup" thing over and over again.

Brady was a backup nobody 6th round draft pick before getting his shot. He turned out to be pretty good.

Foles' regular season numbers could well have had something to do with being a backup, or working out a few kinks. But he played extremely well in the Super Bowl. It's not like they sucked out there and the D was just twiddling their thumbs. He was making perfect throws all night. They had an excellent game plan, and he executed damn near perfectly. Give the man his credit. He earned it.
So now Foles is the next TB?? Really? So which do you think is more likely? He wins 2 more out of the next 3, or he never wins another one? I know which one I will put my money on. I am fully aware I am not giving Foles enough credit. Losing blows and it is sour grapes. But PUH-LEEZE stop comparing him to Tom fucking Brady too.
 

BaseballJones

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Of course they did. They also happened to work.

Throwing the ball on the 1 to Lockette likely took some balls as well. Calling a play pass when up 28-12 in the 4th quarter (and where a receiver was actually open) in order to salt the game away also took some brass balls. The difference is that Philly's play call happened to work, and the other two didn't.

It's a results-based assessment, not a rational/logical one. And that's perfectly fine, this is a results-based business. But I guaran-fucking-tee that if that pass to Foles gets knocked down or picked, then Pederson's decision to call that play is going to be flamebroiled for all eternity.
It's like when a guy takes a last-second shot in a basketball game. If he misses it, oh well. But if he makes it, everyone goes nuts and the announcers laud the guy for having the "guts" to take such a big shot.

Well, there are LOTS of guys who have the "guts" to take the last shot. You don't have more guts just because the shot goes in. But it's all the perception because of the results.
 

BigJimEd

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Nothing stopping them from doing that except there was no one there to do so.
I believe it was Lee that was lined up opposite him. He let Foles go to take on the motion man.
Van Noy rushed right in to if I remember correctly. Not a good game or playoffs for Van Noy. I thought he was exposed quite a bit.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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It's like when a guy takes a last-second shot in a basketball game. If he misses it, oh well. But if he makes it, everyone goes nuts and the announcers laud the guy for having the "guts" to take such a big shot.

Well, there are LOTS of guys who have the "guts" to take the last shot. You don't have more guts just because the shot goes in. But it's all the perception because of the results.
Never ascribe to character what can be ascribed to physical skill and execution.
 

drbretto

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So now Foles is the next TB?? Really? So which do you think is more likely? He wins 2 more out of the next 3, or he never wins another one? I know which one I will put my money on. I am fully aware I am not giving Foles enough credit. Losing blows and it is sour grapes. But PUH-LEEZE stop comparing him to Tom fucking Brady too.
Nobody is comparing him to Tom Brady. Brady was just an example of how "he's just a backup" doesn't mean shit. Could be that Foles had the game (or playoffs) of his life. It could be that he's a competent QB. It doesn't matter, he did it. It happened. He should get his due credit. Just like we would for Tom Brady or anyone else on the Pats.

Complaining they gave it up to a backup is dumb. That backup got it done. Not just in the Super Bowl, either.
 

Bongorific

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It’s not quite on the same level as the Moss just miss catch, but I’m surprised how little attention the first play after the last kick off has received. Hogan just misses a potentially catchable ball along the sidelines. They would have had 53 seconds and been in much better field position to work their way closer for end zone routes rather than hail maries.
 

Koufax

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I agree that this was a critical play. I don't know that the ball was catchable. It appeared to be just beyond his reach.
 

lexrageorge

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Let's just remember this game next year when the Pats are facing a mediocre QB and people in here are saying how we shouldn't be afraid of this QB blah blah blah. The TB/BB Pats have now lost in the playoffs to:

Jake Plummer
Peyton Manning in his prime (twice)
Peyton Manning when he was the worst QB in the league
Joe Flacco (twice)
Mark Sanchez
Eli Manning (twice)
Nick Foles
When you're in the playoffs year after year, you lose some. Consider:

Plummer was in 2005; that team was in a transition period and not great defensively.

Pats were competitive in the Manning losses (P and E).

The 2009 team was a classic playoff fraud and deserved to lose to the Ravens. And the 2012 team lost to the eventual champion after losing Gronk to a fluke injury.

The Sanchez one bothers me; hate that completion to Crotchery.

Foles is better than some here give him credit.

Yes, but your larger point that the single-elimination playoffs do have an element of Any Given Sunday definitely stands.
 

JimD

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Does anyone know how often they ran the no-huddle offense in this game and how that generally compares to other games? It was hard to tell at times during the broadcast but it seems to me that they didn't run it very often.
 

Captaincoop

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After listening to two days of post mortem on this game, I have settled on the three opinions that are pissing me off the most:

1) Belichick is a big idiot for not playing Malcolm Butler / Butler would have won the game
2) The referees cost us this game
3) Brady should have caught the pass he was thrown
 

dcmissle

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1 has been beaten to death and 2 has been shot between the eyes.

Given how early it happened in the game, I don’t get 3, the TB “miss”.
 

Kun Aguero

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Nobody is comparing him to Tom Brady. Brady was just an example of how "he's just a backup" doesn't mean shit. Could be that Foles had the game (or playoffs) of his life. It could be that he's a competent QB. It doesn't matter, he did it. It happened. He should get his due credit. Just like we would for Tom Brady or anyone else on the Pats.

Complaining they gave it up to a backup is dumb. That backup got it done. Not just in the Super Bowl, either.
So if Nick Foles never wins another playoff game, it is still "dumb" that we are upset we lost? I freely admitted that i didn't give him enough credit. Yes, he played great. Can't take that away from him. But it is not "dumb" for me to be pissed off at how bad our defense played. If you give it your best, and you lose, oh, well. Shit happens. Do you really think we played at our best? I don't. I didn't say losing to Nick Foles was inexcusable. I said giving up 41 fucking points was. If someone told you Brady would have over 500 yards passing in this game, would you think we would lose to Nick Foles under that scenario? Nobody would. It's not that we lost I am upset about. It is HOW we lost. Time will tell if Foles is the real deal or a one shot wonder. Maybe he is just that good. Or maybe, just maybe, we simply made him look that way. But to say I am dumb, or anyone else is, to feel that way, is ridiculous and insulting.
 
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Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yes, if Foles never wins another playoff game IMO it's still silly to be upset that "we lost to HIM?" He is a good QB and he played great. This isn't Trent Dilfer.

Nick Foles played a great game. He also played an equally great game against a better defense (Vikings) just two weeks before. I don't see how anyone who actually watched that game can be stunned he showed himself capable of playing similarly against the Pats.
 

Super Nomario

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Given how early it happened in the game, I don’t get 3, the TB “miss”.
The sad thing is, there were more missed opportunities on offense than on defense, because the defense was not competitive enough most of the game to have realistic "missed opportunities." They were closer to winning this game 45-38 than they were winning 33-31. The D was a lucky deflection on an INT away from things being even worse. So I get why people fixate on the early offensive and ST miscues, because there were basically no close calls defensively.
 

kenneycb

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Yes, if Foles never wins another playoff game IMO it's still silly to be upset that "we lost to HIM?" He is a good QB and he played great. This isn't Trent Dilfer.

Nick Foles played a great game. He also played an equally great game against a better defense (Vikings) just two weeks before. I don't see how anyone who actually watched that game can be stunned he showed himself capable of playing similarly against the Pats.
You keep stating this as if it is a given and well accepted fact. It isn't. It may turn out to be true or he may have just pulled a Flacco, but there are several arguments on both side of the ledger on this.
 

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You keep stating this as if it is a given and well accepted fact. It isn't. It may turn out to be true or he may have just pulled a Flacco, but there are several arguments on both side of the ledger on this.
OK, have it your way: he's playing like a good QB, against more than one opponent. I don't give enough of a shit about this argument to start quibbling like this. He's not a guy like Hugh Millen or Cleo Lemon or Tom Savage or ground-into-cartilage Matt Shaub. OK?
 

kenneycb

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You're greatly underrating Matt Schaub's career. Regardless, given the question at hand, whether or not Foles is good is central to actually answering the question.
 

BaseballJones

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You keep stating this as if it is a given and well accepted fact. It isn't. It may turn out to be true or he may have just pulled a Flacco, but there are several arguments on both side of the ledger on this.
I have no idea if Foles is actually good or not. I know he played phenomenally well against Minnesota in the NFCCG and against the Patriots in the Super Bowl. And I know that quite often teams with inferior quarterbacks beat teams with superior quarterbacks. It happens.

And for the record, here was Foles' three-game playoff run....

vs Atl: 23-30, 246 yds, 0 td, 0 int, 100.1 rating
vs Min: 26-33, 352 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 141.4 rating
vs NE: 28-43, 373 yds, 3 td, 1 int, 106.1 rating (plus a TD reception)
TOT: 77-106 (72.6%), 971 yds, 6 td, 1 int, 115.7 rating, his team scoring 94 points in three games

That's pretty kick-ass. It's kind of the anti-Peyton Manning. Foles might be a pretty iffy QB who ended up having a phenomenal playoff run. Peyton is an all-time great QB who had a pretty horrendous playoff run in 2015 yet also won a Super Bowl. Here were Peyton's numbers....

vs Pit: 21-37, 222 yds, 0 td, 0 int, 74.4 rating
vs NE: 17-32, 176 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 90.1 rating
vs Car: 13-23, 141 yds, 0 td, 1 int, 56.6 rating
TOT: 51-92 (55.4%), 539 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 75.4 rating

I don't know if seeing Peyton's numbers make me feel better or worse......
 

dcmissle

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The sad thing is, there were more missed opportunities on offense than on defense, because the defense was not competitive enough most of the game to have realistic "missed opportunities." They were closer to winning this game 45-38 than they were winning 33-31. The D was a lucky deflection on an INT away from things being even worse. So I get why people fixate on the early offensive and ST miscues, because there were basically no close calls defensively.
Which is another way of saying that the rest of the team — offense and ST — had to pitch a shutout, not a perfect game but a shutout, because the defense was a lost cause from the opening whistle. That’s my view, and it’s an untenable situation. That’s too much pressure and no meaningful margin for error.

In a sane world, if somebody tells me that one o-lineman is going to mess up once, resulting in a fumble, I take that going in against this defense. Thankfully, people are not insane enough to jump ugly on Shaq Mason.

One of the real bitter pills of this is how well the o-line played.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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You're greatly underrating Matt Schaub's career. Regardless, given the question at hand, whether or not Foles is good is central to actually answering the question.
Well, he's playing good, in important games and against good teams, so I guess by definition that makes him a good QB....

I qualified the Shaub point by adding the hyphenated adjective.
 

drbretto

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So if Nick Foles never wins another playoff game, it is still "dumb" that we are upset we lost to him? I freely admitted that i didn't give him enough credit. Yes, he played great. Can't take that away from him. But it is not "dumb" for me to be pissed off at how bad our defense played. If you give it your best, and you lose, oh, well. Shit happens. Do you really think we played at our best? I don't. I didn't say losing to Nick Foles was inexcusable. I said giving up 41 fucking points was. If someone told you Brady would have over 500 yards passing in this game, would you think we would lose to Nick Foles under that scenario? Nobody would. It's not that we lost I am upset about. It is HOW we lost. Time will tell if Foles is the real deal or a one shot wonder. Maybe he is just that good. Or maybe, just maybe, we simply made him look that way. But to say I am dumb, or anyone else is, to feel that way, is ridiculous and insulting.
It's a dumb take.

It's dumb because it makes the assumption that the defense just let some scrub walk all over them. Dude played a hell of a game, and not just him. Their whole offence played like a Super Bowl team. They had a great game plan and executed, all night, for 60 minutes. Yes, I have no doubt the Pats' defense should/would/could have done much better, but the bottom line is, they didn't. They were off balance all game and the Eagles, and Foles, had a little something to do with that.

I realize it's easy to fall into this notion that every win or loss is because of what the Pats did or didn't do, but with any matchup, both teams contribute. This isn't some crappy team that didn't deserve to win. They stepped right up against the Pats and they beat 'em. Straight up, fair game. Foles didn't play like a "backup". He played like an all-pro QB. How he does in the future or how he played in the past don't factor into it. The defense didn't give the game away, they got beat, consistently, for 60 minutes.

Every Pats win has a moment or two of good fortune. That's just how it goes. But we celebrate those wins and our dominance because the Pats were able to hang in there and take advantage of the other team's mistakes. That's exactly what the Eagles did to the Pats. That "backup" didn't make a single mistake for 60 minutes. He threaded needles and executed some ballsy plays when the game was on the line. He wasn't like a deer in the headlights. He didn't look lost or outmatched. He was not a "backup". He was the Super Bowl MVP.
 

drbretto

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You're greatly underrating Matt Schaub's career. Regardless, given the question at hand, whether or not Foles is good is central to actually answering the question.
No, it's not. How he actually performed on the field in the game in question is what matters.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Which is another way of saying that the rest of the team — offense and ST — had to pitch a shutout, not a perfect game but a shutout, because the defense was a lost cause from the opening whistle. That’s my view, and it’s an untenable situation. That’s too much pressure and no meaningful margin for error.

In a sane world, if somebody tells me that one o-lineman is going to mess up once, resulting in a fumble, I take that going in against this defense. Thankfully, people are not insane enough to jump ugly on Shaq Mason.

One of the real bitter pills of this is how well the o-line played.
True, but special teams was probably worse than the defense. So coupled with questionable coaching decisions (not counting Butler here but the two decisions to kick / not kick FGs in the 2nd Qtr) they squandered up to 11 points. This put it all on Brady and he still almost did it.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,734
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Except three games and a season five years ago is the definition of SSS.
Jesus Tapdancing Christ this is tiresome.

I don't know how anyone can actually look at what Foles did this year and think "He might not be a good QB." When Kaepernick got the 49ers to the Super Bowl, guess what? HE WAS A GOOD QB.

My goodness. I'm not thrilled the Pats lost too, and the defense was trash, but trying to denigrate Foles' quality of play to shit on the Pats' defense more is ridiculous.