The Goat Thread: SBLII vs Eagles

DJnVa

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He checks with official before any potential motion by offensive players. If they shifted, does his "okay" still count?
 

Byrdbrain

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I'm with you in all aspects of this post. I am emphatically NOT blaming the refs for the loss - the Pats' mistakes in the first half offensively that cost them 4 points (and really, probably more) and their utter inability to stop Philly were what killed them.

BUT it's 100% true that neither the Foles' TD catch, NOR the Clement TD catch should have counted. One wasn't even a judgment call - just a simple enforcement of the rules. The other was clearly, upon replay, not a catch. I could not believe that held up after seeing a definitive replay.

As for the ref "clearing" the WR...well, I don't blame Philly for this - the WR did the right thing by checking. But the ref got it wrong. Objectively wrong.
Sure but if the ref got it right the WR would have scooted up a bit. Since the WR checked he was never going to get penalized. It is a non-issue.
 

lexrageorge

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The general assumption is that the refs typically allow scrimmage line players some leeway if they check with the ref that they are legal. Had the ref said "no", Jeffrey moves forward 2 feet, and the play result is exactly the same anyways.

Refs didn't really "screw up"; they just gave Jeffrey some leeway, leeway that is apparently granted from time to time.
 

the moops

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Biggest play to me was the 4th and 1 on PHi own 45 with 5 minutes to go. Was a super clear pick play, that should have been called. Great call by PHI though, cause worst case, they get a penalty and they punt, and still have a chance. But man, McCourty got leveled by Celek that let Ertz come clean across.

4th.JPG
 

dcmissle

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Leaving the Butler issue to the other thread, the single 'moment' they lost the game was when they went up by 1 in the fourth with around 9 minutes left and they could not get off the field, giving up a seven minute drive and a TD.

In a game where they were out played all night and in a game where Philly consistently was able to simply execute more, when they had finally clawed their way to a lead, they absolutely needed a stop and couldn't get it.

That killed them. Patricia and Belichick had had all night at that point to figure it out and they had nothing.
That drive was emblematic and symptomatic, and that's why I'm not going to get caught up in the Butler drama or any other of the 3 or 4 or 5 things that could have flipped the game.

The defense deteriorated to the point that everyone else must pitch a perfect game to win. No fuck ups in pass pro -- not one; HOF level performance from your QB; superb performance from your other players on offense (and no turnovers, not one); totally squared away and buttoned up special teams.

That's too much pressure, with no margin for error.

The defensive minds on this team, the aeronautical engineer and the GOAT HC, never figured it out. There were inadequate in game adjustments. Broader picture -- and this is more important because of its ramifications going forward -- they never figured out what Red October and Super Nomario and others have accurately called the Andy Reid problem.

So if there are going outside -- Schiano -- for a fresh approach, I totally get it, and its probably a good thing.

If the rebuttal point is, well they didn't have the wherewithal to combat RPOs and the other stuff in the Reid bag of tricks, the groceries were not there, they had 3/4s of a season to get some new ones or craft a fresh approach with what they had on hand.
 

Super Nomario

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Biggest play to me was the 4th and 1 on PHi own 45 with 5 minutes to go. Was a super clear pick play, that should have been called. Great call by PHI though, cause worst case, they get a penalty and they punt, and still have a chance. But man, McCourty got leveled by Celek that let Ertz come clean across.
That's close enough to the line that it would almost never get flagged.

I can't believe people are complaining about the reffing. You sound like Ravens fans.
 

Byrdbrain

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Biggest play to me was the 4th and 1 on PHi own 45 with 5 minutes to go. Was a super clear pick play, that should have been called. Great call by PHI though, cause worst case, they get a penalty and they punt, and still have a chance. But man, McCourty got leveled by Celek that let Ertz come clean across.

View attachment 19533
Picks are legal within a yard of the LOS and while that is probably closer to two yards I don't think it ever gets called.

Edit: Damn too slow again.
 

dcmissle

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That's close enough to the line that it would almost never get flagged.

I can't believe people are complaining about the reffing. You sound like Ravens fans.
It's crazy time. Thankfully, the team knows better.
 

BaseballJones

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Sure but if the ref got it right the WR would have scooted up a bit. Since the WR checked he was never going to get penalized. It is a non-issue.
Yep fair point. The refs still blew it. But as I said initially, it was a beautiful play executed well. This had no bearing on the play.

It's one of those things, though, that if the Patriots were the ones in that situation, all we'd hear today is "The refs actually let the Patriots break the rules!"
 

lexrageorge

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Biggest play to me was the 4th and 1 on PHi own 45 with 5 minutes to go. Was a super clear pick play, that should have been called. Great call by PHI though, cause worst case, they get a penalty and they punt, and still have a chance. But man, McCourty got leveled by Celek that let Ertz come clean across.

View attachment 19533
Nice screen cap.

McCourty's left foot is basically 1.1 yards off the LOS. A call there would have been the definition of ticky-tack.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It's crazy time. Thankfully, the team knows better.
Officiating didn't cost us the game, but I continue to have a problem with delegating the video review to off-the-field officials. I've posted about it here several times and I think last night *could* have been an example of the problem that I was talking about.

The NFL works so hard to ensure that its officials have a don't-give-a-shit mentality, while the league office is more susceptible to letting outside noise filter in. Perhaps Steratore would have called the bobble/catch the same as New York (really Minnesota; using "New York" as shorthand) did. It was close. And perhaps there was no unconscious bias that made the call affected by what had transpired earlier in the year with the catch no-catch call. It's all unknowable.

But, I think it's more likely that outside influences and subconscious bias can affect the video review room on controversial calls than it affects the officials on the field. And I always will be skeptical as time goes by that this call would have been different in October than it was in February. I would have preferred that to be Steratore's call. It minimizes that possibility to the extent it can be.

Centralized review works great in hockey, where virtually every call is objective. In the NFL, I think it's a bad idea. Again, no clue whether it mattered last night. And this really isn't sour grapes. I'm more just using what happened last night as a jumping off point for something I've been trying to say for a couple of years -- as a possible example, or at least one where there's an appearance of an issue.
 

DJnVa

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Did Brady have his WEEI thing today? Is post-Super Bowl different? Or did that end with last week's issues?
 

BaseballJones

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Just because.... Let's say that the Pats had scored the Clement touchdown and it went down exactly like that. A juggled ball, left foot hitting the white. If the refs let that stand in favor of the Patriots, the entire rest of the NFL's fan bases would have completely melted down and the media firestorm would have been unfathomable.
 

streeter88

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Yep. I had a friend (Jets fan of all things) send me a meme that had Brady see a Lombardi slip off his fingertips on that trick play. I'm like, well, it's hard to catch a Lombardi when you're holding five in your arms.

Your point is well taken. You get here enough times, and sometimes things will go poorly for you, or a bounce will go the other way. The great Yankees lost to the Marlins (!) and the Diamondbacks. They blew a 3-0 lead against the Red Sox.

Even the 49ers...well, they may not have lost a Super Bowl, but they got knocked out of what was the de facto Super Bowl (the NFCCG - at a time when the NFC absolutely DOMINATED the AFC) a bunch of times.

Sucks to lose, but the team once again showed incredible grit. Even in the end, after they turned it over, they completely stoned Philly and forced the field goal and still made a gallant effort to get down the field for one last try. In some ways, this game showed even more why Brady is the GOAT. His defense couldn't get a stop all game, and he had to play a perfect game, and very nearly did.

There is no way that with 2:30 left and the Pats having the ball down 5, that there was any Eagle fan that wasn't crapping their pants. Hoping, PRAYING, for a turnover (which, of course, they got). Because without that turnover, there was no way Brady wasn't taking them down for the winning TD.
This is great post. I was thinking the D failed to stop Eagles even once, but they did actually get a stop. It was unfortunately just a bit too late.

Eagles fans WERE crapping their pants. Their defense stopped Brady at the exact perfect time.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Just because.... Let's say that the Pats had scored the Clement touchdown and it went down exactly like that. A juggled ball, left foot hitting the white. If the refs let that stand in favor of the Patriots, the entire rest of the NFL's fan bases would have completely melted down and the media firestorm would have been unfathomable.
Of course. Today I haven't seen a single thing discussing the Clement TD yet. It's telling for sure.
 

DJnVa

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Just because.... Let's say that the Pats had scored the Clement touchdown and it went down exactly like that. A juggled ball, left foot hitting the white. If the refs let that stand in favor of the Patriots, the entire rest of the NFL's fan bases would have completely melted down and the media firestorm would have been unfathomable.
So?
 

wnyghost

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Didn't hear Trey Flowers' name called much last night. In the end, not enough pressure on Foles and the guy was nails.

Eff the Butler crap. Sure he might have made a tackle or two but the guy seemed to be consistently giving up chunk plays this year. Maybe he was gambling a bit more to make big plays to add to the resume? Maybe he was was not healthy enough to play? Maybe the coaching staff sees something that we don't?

At the end if the day Nick Foles played awesome and the Eagles coaching staff didn't shit their pants.
 

DJnVa

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If the ref thought Jeffery was off the line, he would’ve said so, and Jeffery would’ve moved half a step forward. Happens all the time, at every level of the game.
I think what some are saying is that it's the opposite--the official said he was on the line but that he actually wasn't.

We've heard this was a judgment call. So are balls and strikes, and we argue about those.
 

mauf

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I think what some are saying is that it's the opposite--the official said he was on the line but that he actually wasn't.

We've heard this was a judgment call. So are balls and strikes, and we argue about those.
It’s like people think the players and officials can see the line of scrimmage that’s superimposed on our TV screen.

Of course officials sometimes miss it when a player lines up a foot or two too far behind the LOS — they are trained to err on the side of keeping that flag in their pocket, and you wouldn’t want it any other way. Saying this is a “missed” call is like saying the officials “missed” offensive holding on 75% of the game’s plays from scrimmage.

Edit: Actually, it’s more like people complaining when officials “miss” a delay of game call, not realizing that it’s the back judge’s job to watch the play clock, look down when the clock hits zero, and throw the flag (and whistle play dead) if the ball is still in the center’s hand — which gives the offense an extra half second or so to get the play off. It’s not a “mistake” when delay of game isn’t called when the ball is snapped a couple tenths of a second after the clock hits zero; it’s part of the game. So is what happened with Jeffery checking his position with the official.
 

Bongorific

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Strange game, stats-wise. Philly had a turnover, so did the Pats. Philly punted once, the Pats zero. Philly's turnover came deep in Pats territory early in the game, Pats turnover came in their own end at the end of the game.

Shit happens.
Pats missed a FG and turned it over on downs. So really they lost the turnover battle 3-1 even though the box score doesn’t say that.
 

BaseballJones

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Pats fans want to let you know they have persecution complexes.
Well, you can call it what you want and that's fine. All part of me just processing the disappointing loss. Part of that for me is hearing incessantly all season long how the refs favor the Patriots, how my team "gets all the calls". It gets wearisome because you see people try to diminish the Patriots' success, and then when I see a call like that, I think, ok, I don't ever want to hear that crap again.

If you or DrewDawg aren't that way, cool. Just part of me working through the loss.
 

Bongorific

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I don’t know what sort of technological device you are posting from, but it probably has calculator functionality.
Ok +/- 10 yards.

That was an average game from Ertz. Maybe we should call it a median game. Going into the game if someone said “would you take 67 yards from Ertz” I would say yes because he can do much more than that.

On a separate note, the blame on B.B. and Patricia for the game plan only goes so far. The front 7 does not have a lot of athleticism. The coaching is at such a high level they can usually make up for it. Against teams that have played more horizontally, the lack of speed has really shown up.
 

jablo1312

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Need another angle than the broadcast one, but it sure looks like Van Noy had a decent shot to knock down the 4th and 1 throw if he just put his hands up in the air...
 

Silverdude2167

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If I am going to complain about the refs for a second. The one play that really annoyed me was Hogan getting tackled at the 20 on the hail mary. I know they let pushing and whatnot go in the end zone, but that should have been called Illegal Contact 100% of the time. You can not tackle a player while he is running his route before the ball is thrown even on a hail mary. It was complete bullshit.
 

ngruz25

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If that’s illegal contact, isn’t the penalty just 5 yards and another attempt at the Hail Mary? I’m guessing the second attempt won’t go any better.

I don’t know if the ball was in the air for PI, but if they’re going to flag that, then they should flag Gronk’s massive push-off too.

I do understand that places like SoSH are “safe spaces,” so to speak, to vent about things like reffing without having to deal with people giving you the stink eye, so don’t let me stop you. I get it.
 

kenneycb

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If I am going to complain about the refs for a second. The one play that really annoyed me was Hogan getting tackled at the 20 on the hail mary. I know they let pushing and whatnot go in the end zone, but that should have been called Illegal Contact 100% of the time. You can not tackle a player while he is running his route before the ball is thrown even on a hail mary. It was complete bullshit.
Gronk did the same thing to an Eagles DB literally right after that.
 

Silverdude2167

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If that’s illegal contact, isn’t the penalty just 5 yards and another attempt at the Hail Mary? I’m guessing the second attempt won’t go any better.

I don’t know if the ball was in the air for PI, but if they’re going to flag that, then they should flag Gronk’s massive push-off too.
I'd take another shot at the end zone for 5 yards closer than the end of the game. And like I said, it has always been anything goes in the endzone, but this was at the 20, it should have been called.
 

Byrdbrain

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If I am going to complain about the refs for a second. The one play that really annoyed me was Hogan getting tackled at the 20 on the hail mary. I know they let pushing and whatnot go in the end zone, but that should have been called Illegal Contact 100% of the time. You can not tackle a player while he is running his route before the ball is thrown even on a hail mary. It was complete bullshit.
Yeah no doubt about it, he wasn't even tacked he was blocked and de-cleated. You expect pushing and shoving where the ball is but that took place running down field.
 

Super Nomario

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Ok +/- 10 yards.

That was an average game from Ertz. Maybe we should call it a median game. Going into the game if someone said “would you take 67 yards from Ertz” I would say yes because he can do much more than that.
OK, but we started this discussion with me asking about what the Pats were trying to shut down. If priority #1 was stopping Ertz, letting him go 7 for 67 and the game-winning TD is awful. If they prioritized elsewhere, it's acceptable. I stand by my original point, which is that they did nothing well.

Having looked at the snap counts since I originally posted, I think they wanted first-and-foremost to stop the run, hence playing a third safety over Butler, playing Harrison over Wise almost wire-to-wire, and playing Roberts over Marquis Flowers for the most part. It did not work, the Eagles still ran for 6+ YPC.

On a separate note, the blame on B.B. and Patricia for the game plan only goes so far. The front 7 does not have a lot of athleticism. The coaching is at such a high level they can usually make up for it. Against teams that have played more horizontally, the lack of speed has really shown up.
The front seven is unathletic but it also had no idea what it was doing. Many of the big conversions were schemed designs that the D was totally unprepared for.
 

SMU_Sox

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Hey Super Nomario what do you mean by:

The front seven is unathletic but it also had no idea what it was doing. Many of the big conversions were schemed designs that the D was totally unprepared for.
Is it that the coaching didn't prepare them for it you think? They got fooled? They aren't used to these looks and therefore even with coaching didn't react in time? I know that's probably hard to diagnose so I apologize but I can't wait to see some film breakdown. Basically teach me what you mean here because I think this makes sense but don't have the acumen or knowledge to diagnose everything well.
 

RedOctober3829

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Hey Super Nomario what do you mean by:



Is it that the coaching didn't prepare them for it you think? They got fooled? They aren't used to these looks and therefore even with coaching didn't react in time? I know that's probably hard to diagnose so I apologize but I can't wait to see some film breakdown. Basically teach me what you mean here because I think this makes sense but don't have the acumen or knowledge to diagnose everything well.
I think Belichick does not properly know how to scheme against RPO's. KC, Carolina, and Houston all lit the defense up with similar schemes.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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In addition to the coaches and the defense, I’d like to nominate whomever booked freaking Dan Shaugnessy on my flight home...

I managed to go the whole weekend without fighting any eagles fans, now I have to suppress my urge to punch him in his chinless face
 

Super Nomario

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Is it that the coaching didn't prepare them for it you think? They got fooled? They aren't used to these looks and therefore even with coaching didn't react in time? I know that's probably hard to diagnose so I apologize but I can't wait to see some film breakdown. Basically teach me what you mean here because I think this makes sense but don't have the acumen or knowledge to diagnose everything well.
It's hard to tell from the outside looking in, but I don't really distinguish between these options. If the coaches didn't think of the possibility of the Eagles doing some of what they did, that's on the coaches. If they did but told the players the wrong keys, that's on the coaches. If they didn't communicate or drill enough for the players to get what they were supposed to do, that's on the coaches. If the players weren't getting it in practice and they didn't make adjustments, that's on the coaches.

There was plenty of the Eagles beating Patriots defenders one-on-one, don't get me wrong. But it seemed like in a lot of the key spots, Pederson dialed up some scheme - the trick play to Foles, the wheel on 3rd-and-3, a run play on 3rd-and-4, the pick play on 4th-and-1, etc., and it worked almost every time (the fake reverse got blown up for a big loss, and there was also a misdirection swing play where it looked like Harrison got away with a hold).
 

SoxVindaloo

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That drive was emblematic and symptomatic, and that's why I'm not going to get caught up in the Butler drama or any other of the 3 or 4 or 5 things that could have flipped the game.

The defense deteriorated to the point that everyone else must pitch a perfect game to win. No fuck ups in pass pro -- not one; HOF level performance from your QB; superb performance from your other players on offense (and no turnovers, not one); totally squared away and buttoned up special teams.

That's too much pressure, with no margin for error.

The defensive minds on this team, the aeronautical engineer and the GOAT HC, never figured it out. There were inadequate in game adjustments. Broader picture -- and this is more important because of its ramifications going forward -- they never figured out what Red October and Super Nomario and others have accurately called the Andy Reid problem.

So if there are going outside -- Schiano -- for a fresh approach, I totally get it, and its probably a good thing.

If the rebuttal point is, well they didn't have the wherewithal to combat RPOs and the other stuff in the Reid bag of tricks, the groceries were not there, they had 3/4s of a season to get some new ones or craft a fresh approach with what they had on hand.
This is exactly where I am. What do SBs 42,46, and 52 have in common? The D could not hold a late lead to save their lives. I know the others had some fluke plays but when we took the lead we just needed to make 1 meaningful stop. Chances are the Eagles would have gone 4 downs so maybe we are even in scoring position if we stop them early enough in the drive. I don't mind that our bad D 2017 version was not artificially inflated by a great turnover ratio (see 2010) but I kept hoping last night for a fluky Pick 6 or fumble to bail us out when it became clear we could not stop them legitimately.
 

Boston Brawler

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In addition to the coaches and the defense, I’d like to nominate whomever booked freaking Dan Shaugnessy on my flight home...

I managed to go the whole weekend without fighting any eagles fans, now I have to suppress my urge to punch him in his chinless face
I'll pitch in a co-pay towards your bail.
 

DJnVa

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Well, you can call it what you want and that's fine. All part of me just processing the disappointing loss. Part of that for me is hearing incessantly all season long how the refs favor the Patriots, how my team "gets all the calls". It gets wearisome because you see people try to diminish the Patriots' success, and then when I see a call like that, I think, ok, I don't ever want to hear that crap again.

If you or DrewDawg aren't that way, cool. Just part of me working through the loss.
I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you at all. I've just gotten to the point where that hate is a feature not a bug.
 

Super Nomario

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This is exactly where I am. What do SBs 42,46, and 52 have in common? The D could not hold a late lead to save their lives. I know the others had some fluke plays but when we took the lead we just needed to make 1 meaningful stop. Chances are the Eagles would have gone 4 downs so maybe we are even in scoring position if we stop them early enough in the drive. I don't mind that our bad D 2017 version was not artificially inflated by a great turnover ratio (see 2010) but I kept hoping last night for a fluky Pick 6 or fumble to bail us out when it became clear we could not stop them legitimately.
Not just 42, 46, and 52. The last two Super Bowls are the only ones where the D didn't a allow a fourth-quarter TD. They allowed 14 fourth-quarter points in 36 to blow a 14-point lead and could not stop the Panthers to save their lives in 38 (three fourth-quarter TDs).
 

Bongorific

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It's hard to tell from the outside looking in, but I don't really distinguish between these options. If the coaches didn't think of the possibility of the Eagles doing some of what they did, that's on the coaches. If they did but told the players the wrong keys, that's on the coaches. If they didn't communicate or drill enough for the players to get what they were supposed to do, that's on the coaches. If the players weren't getting it in practice and they didn't make adjustments, that's on the coaches.

There was plenty of the Eagles beating Patriots defenders one-on-one, don't get me wrong. But it seemed like in a lot of the key spots, Pederson dialed up some scheme - the trick play to Foles, the wheel on 3rd-and-3, a run play on 3rd-and-4, the pick play on 4th-and-1, etc., and it worked almost every time (the fake reverse got blown up for a big loss, and there was also a misdirection swing play where it looked like Harrison got away with a hold).
There were a couple of screens and the fake reverse that they blew up but agree completely agreed that they got burned on a ton of these plays. My recollection is that they had a lot of problems with wheel routes this year which is something they run a fair amount themselves. They almost lost the jags games on a wheel route
 

Saints Rest

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It's been argued by many, both here and elsewhere, that the difference between winning and losing has come down to coaches choking in big moments (Carroll on the Butler pick; Quinn on a bunch of play-calling). Last night, Pederson made no dumb moves. And that was likely the difference.

If that strip-sack doesn't happen, and the Pats move down the field for the TD, you can bet that Eagle fans would be saying a lot of similar things: Where was the D? How could they not make a single stop? You can't blame (our QB).
 

tims4wins

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Malcolm Butler.

While that is partially tongue in cheek, there is no single goat other than to say that the Pats were pretty close to getting a stop on a lot of those 3rd and 4th downs, but the Eagles just made all the plays. Congrats to a worthy champion. We have seen the Pats make all of the plays before. Last night they almost did. The Eagles were just a smidge better.
 

AB in DC

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You can't blame the defense for being awful, because they've been mostly awful all year, and they're playing a team that just put up 30+ points on the #1 defense by wDVOA.

No, usually the goat horns go on a player who does something unexpectedly awful, and yesterday, that was Brandin Cooks. The attempted hurdle was possibly the single worst play in the entire game:
- His jump is to run fast, not jump high.
- The defender wasn't even terribly low to the ground
- It was a horrible situation for a play like that -- he didn't need to break the tackle for a TD, he just needed one yard. One yard!!
- Normal WR play gets that year the vast majority of the time -- with Cooks' speed that's more like 90% -- just run to the sideline, and even if you can't turn the corner, at least you could dive for the sticks.
- It probably cost the team 7 points

Then the next time he caught a pass, he looked completely lost. I was just about to start yelling "What the hell are you doing??" before he got clocked. And the injury wasn't a fluke, it was an extremely dangerous situation, and a totally unnecessary one.

All Cooks needed to do was do his job and the Patriots probably win.