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The Game Goat Thread: Week 15 at Pittsburgh

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by SeoulSoxFan, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    I will rewatch this tomorrow if I am able on NFL game pass (best thing ever). I bet it’s not long. Way fewer snaps than you’re imagining.
     
  2. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    The refs had no bearing on this game. Most of if not all of the calls on them were the correct calls.
     
  3. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Refs or no, the Pats don't have the talent nor the mental toughness to pull out games such as this, or the one in Miami last week. The main culprit is the defense, but the offense has had its share of goats as well. They're on the rung below elite, maybe 2 rungs below this season. Some of that is due to aging: Gronk, Edelman, and even Brady to a small extent.

    Still, the team needs Brady to be perfect to win, which is a problem. He wasn't perfect today, but he was good enough for a competent defense and OL to have pulled it off.

    Goats: OL for the 7 presnap penalties. That's not on the officials; each and everyone of those were blatantly obvious.

    Defensive front for giving up too many chunks of yards on the ground 2nd week in a row.
     
  4. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    This is the clip I was talking about from 09. It’s spot on as a description of this year.

     
  5. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Oh don't get me wrong, the pre-snap stuff was abominable, but the issue is the Pats and Brady particularly, managed to deal with those penalties. They didn't really cost them anything. It was the drive killing penalties (the holding on the Michel run, and the two holding penalties in the red zone) that were judgment calls that could have gone either way and were called. That's what kills me.

    If I'm not mistaken, the four penalties on Pittsburgh was a 12 men on the field that Brady caught them in, the DPI on Haden, the grounding on Big Ben, and there was one holding call on an end around to Switzer. That's it. Basically, calls they had to make or it would have been an egregious missed call. They basically made no calls against Pittsburgh that they could have let go, which was clearly not the case on the other side of the field. Rather, it seemed they threw a flag at any chance they could on the Pats, given the level of egregiousness, or more aptly lack of egregiousness.
     
  6. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Oh don't get me wrong, the pre-snap stuff was abominable, but the issue is the Pats and Brady particularly, managed to deal with those penalties. They didn't really cost them anything. It was the drive killing penalties (the holding on the Michel run, and the two holding penalties in the red zone) that were judgment calls that could have gone either way and were called. That's what kills me.

    If I'm not mistaken, the four penalties on Pittsburgh was a 12 men on the field that Brady caught them in, the DPI on Haden, the grounding on Big Ben, and there was one holding call on an end around to Switzer. That's it. Basically, calls they had to make or it would have been an egregious missed call. They basically made no calls against Pittsburgh that they could have let go, which was clearly not the case on the other side of the field. Rather, it seemed they threw a flag at any chance they could on the Pats, given the level of egregiousness, or more aptly lack of egregiousness.
     
  7. Norm Siebern

    Norm Siebern Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, I do think they have a different call on first and goal from the four rather than first and goal from the five. I think they are more likely to keep running the ball rather than calling pass plays because of that one yard.

    And that's not the whole point. It's OK now for referees to move the ball back a full yard from where it's supposed to be? On a spot inside the five yard line? As if one yard that close to the goal line doesn't make a difference? Tell that to James White and his TD in overtime in the Super Bowl.
     
  8. nattysez

    nattysez Member SoSH Member

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    The coaches threw away two games in a row. The players should've played better, but this team was some reasonable red-zone play-calling and not having an enfeebled Gronk in on defense at the end of the game last week from winning two in a row.

    I don't know if BB is handing more responsibility to McD and he can't handle it, but something is wrong. And on D, it may be that Flores is not up to the job of turning a defense of lemons into lemonade.
     
  9. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    Why again are we crapping on a defense that gave up 17 points?
     
  10. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    To be fair, the Steelers missed a FG and only had 8 real drives (10 technically, but 2 were end-of-half kneeldowns. Average is ~11.5 drives). The Patriots only forced two punts. It was an OK defensive performance, but not as effective as 17 points suggests.

    This is the flipside; the O only had 9 possessions, including three that went in FG range and only generated three points. They weren't far away from an effective night. The concerning part is the red zone offense has been an issue all year, they're fully healthy now, and if anything they're getting worse in that area.

    He was also the team's leading receiver by a mile. And there aren't a lot of "good" false starts, but I thought Edelman's was a good one; there was a DB coming and if he hadn't jumped Brady was going to be dead to rights. Better to take the five than a sack.
     
  11. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    I think he's probably talking more about last week, when it comes to the defense.

    At least, I hope he is. I thought they were pretty great for the most part today. This was the same game plan they used against Miami in the first game, the Vikings, the Chiefs. Let them run if they're going to run, but we aren't getting beat, especially deep, by Brown or JuJu. And it works, because stupid coaches like Tomlin and Zimmer can't commit to the run. They get impatient and have to throw the ball.
     
  12. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Goats. Going to list more than 3 because I can’t narrow it down.

    1) OL - just so freaking sloppy. I didn’t agree with a couple of the penalties but for the most part they were correct. You can’t have your OL crapping the bed in big moments like today and expect to win against a good opponent on the road.

    2) Red zone offense - huge F- today. I’m sure Gronk’s mortality is playing a role here but it’s remarkable how little confidence I have in a team with Tom Brady at QB once they get inside the 20. The offense scored 3 freaking points in 3 red zone trips. Just a huge failure and it needs to change. That little shit WR screen to Edelman on 3rd and 4 at the end of the 3rd really irritated me. He has no wiggle anymore.

    3) DL - Just a complete blah unit. How many times are we going to watch RBs blast through the middle without getting touched? Malcolm Brown has been so underwhelming.

    4) Coaches - clearly couldn’t get this team to re-focus after the Miami debacle. McDaniels couldn’t get anything established and continues to underuse Michel/White, IMO.

    5) WRs - please drop more passes, dipshits. Where the hell was Gordon today?

    Not GOATS

    Secondary - they were victimized on a bad DPI call and had a couple plays where DBs didn’t turn around but otherwise they held Brown/JuJu to 89 combined yards. They did their job. If the offense does theirs, we have a comfortable win

    All in all, I’m just disappointed in this team. 9-5 isn’t a terrible place to be but they’re just playing sloppy football. We don’t have too much Brady left and it sucks that one of his last seasons is featuring so many mental lapses by everyone. Still time to clean things up. Just paste the AFCE and hope for a BoB special in Philly.
     
  13. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Because they were gouged all day, dominated in the front seven and gifted two awful interceptions , a grounding and a missed field goal? That Pitt didn’t just keep pounding the ball doesn’t make them good. They had no control against the run or the line.
     
  14. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Can anyone find the snap count on Gordon?

    I'm guessing he was off the field on the fourth down play, because he was probably gassed by running 25+ yards on the previous two plays, but I feel like he wasn't on the field much today. The fact that he never saw another target after the early drop was really strange, given he had to be getting man to man coverage all day with the way they were covering Gronk and putting so many guys in the box.
     
  15. j44thor

    j44thor Member SoSH Member

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    When you consider down and distance the Haden DPI was probably the most impact call of the game as it negated a change of possession and was at best a 50/50 call. You can argue he didn't turn Hogan and the ball was uncatchable. That call certainly evened up the Jones call which was probably a 40/60 call-non call but different down and distance.
     
  16. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    Hightower’s effort sucks, I’m sorry. There’s no way it’s injuries physically limiting him, the dude just flat stops moving on half the plays and it’s clear in others he has more to give. I do wonder if he’s mentally packed it in a bit, given the injuries and money. Clayborn does the same thing, and he’s terrible to boot. But the D probably played its best road game, given the competition, and the offense laid an egg.

    But the real goat is the coaching, again. Three and five on the road, and playing night and day differently on the home/road with all the stupid fucking penalties reflects on Belichick. I’m not sure what is different, but there is a 2009 aura to this season, which is when he threw his arms up and told Brady he couldn’t get players to listen.
     
  17. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    My favorite Hightower play from today was when we had them backed up and he decides to engage the lead blocker and ignores Samuels running up he middle.
     
  18. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    We'll have to agree to disagree here, because we aren't even the same stratosphere on what a 50/50 or 40/60 call is. That Haden DPI was as blatant and obvious as any I saw all weekend. The Jones call, where the receiver reached back and grabbed Jones' arm (not the other way around). I mean, he literally didn't do anything, and he got called for DPI. Sure, i guess it's 40/60, because NFL refs are terrible, or something.

    Neither of those calls had anything close to the impact on the game as the two holding calls on the Pats in the red zone on the last two possessions of the game though.

    Edit: Let's also not forget that the Haden DPI came immediately after the refs called an illegal formation on Edelman that wiped out a 17 yard play. I never saw the replay of that, but there seemed to be a lot of folks in the game thread that were pretty certain that call was bullshit, and if so, then I don't really care of the Haden call was legit or not, because if it was a makeup call or the correct call, the end result was exactly what it should have been.
     
  19. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    To clarify: do you think the holding calls weren’t legit calls?
     
  20. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Yes, I think they were all penalties, by the letter of the law. The problem is that's not how the NFL game is called. It's not how it's been called all day today, all season long, or any time this decade. It's not how it was called for Pittsburgh today. It's like a Major League umpire having a huge strike zone for one team, and a tiny one for the other. If they are going to make those calls, then fine, make them. But make them both ways. That's always my problem with officiating. I want consistency more than anything else.
     
  21. MillarTime

    MillarTime Member SoSH Member

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    Brady. I kills me to type this but he was bad in the games most critical moments. During the last series he kept trying to force the ball to Gronk (White was WIDE OPEN for at least 10 yds on 3rd down) and he continues to see ghosts in the pocket and throw fade-away passes. It sucks.
     
  22. j44thor

    j44thor Member SoSH Member

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    Tough to tell if that was poor coaching or execution. If the play calls for HT to plug the A gap then he did his job. If he was supposed to read and react then he executed poorly.
     
  23. twibnotes

    twibnotes Member SoSH Member

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    Yup - some no name rookie got 7+ yards a carry. The Pats front 7 is bad
     
  24. j44thor

    j44thor Member SoSH Member

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    The one silver lining is that there are no elite teams in the NFL this year. I'm not even sure there are any very good teams compared to years past.
     
  25. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Umm, what? You know they were on the 21 yard line, right? There was 26 seconds left when they snapped the ball on 3rd down, and they had no time outs. If he throws it to White on third down for 10 yards, what happens next?

    I'll give you a hint: It rhymes with "ame gover."
     
  26. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    The Saints get to play in a dome for the entire playoffs. They are pretty elite in perfect conditions unfortunately.
     
  27. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    They may have had time to run one more play, this time from the 11 or so, making it a little easier attempt. But things would have to have gone right in order to pull that off. But it’s possible.
     
  28. MillarTime

    MillarTime Member SoSH Member

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    Nope...easily could’ve gotten out of bounds and at worst made 4th down much more reasonable.

     
  29. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Rams, Saints, Chargers and Chiefs are all more consistent and have more speed than the defense can handle. Can’t really argue the Steelers now. Not sure Bears would be more than 50/50. Same as Houston. What do you think Gordon or Gurley would do to our defense? Sure, any given week and all, but we suck on the road. We need the Eagles huge next week.
     
  30. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Yup. That’s either a first or damn close and he easily gets out of bounds. Brady missed it.
     
  31. 54thMA

    54thMA Member SoSH Member

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    Wide open.

    It's a 50/50 proposition if he can beat the defensive back dropping back into coverage towards the end zone to the goal line, worst case he gets out of bounds.

    Too bad.

    As several of you have noted at various times this year, this team has 2009 written all over it; at this point, if they end up as the #3 seed, I'm wondering if they'd even win in the opening round at home and if they somehow end up as the #2 seed, same deal, not sure they win in the second round at home as well.

    I guess we'll find out regardless.

    This obviously wasn't going to last forever, but it's sad to see players like Brady, Edelman, Hightower and Gronkowski on the back nine.

    Maybe it will be the Patriots who catch lightning in a bottle, go on a run in the playoffs and win a Super Bowl as a heavy underdog, 2002 vs the Rams aside, turnabout being fair play and all that.
     
  32. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Are you guys not looking at what is going on in the pocket? All the pressure is coming from Brady's left side. Obviously, the first reads are going to be to the end zone. You want him to look at the first reads, then turn into the pressure and throw a ball into the flat to James White? Are you serious? What if he mistimes it and doesn't realize how close the pressure is, and he gets sacked before he can release it?

    Like I said, the standard here is insane. You guys think he has eyes all around his head.
     
  33. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Are you guys not looking at what is going on in the pocket? All the pressure is coming from Brady's left side. Obviously, the first reads are going to be to the end zone. You want him to look at the first reads, then turn into the pressure and throw a ball into the flat to James White? Are you serious? What if he mistimes it and doesn't realize how close the pressure is, and he gets sacked before he can release it?

    Like I said, the standard here is insane. You guys think he has eyes all around his head.
     
  34. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

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    there's no doubt Tom had a bad final series, but everything before that matters more.

    in their 3 losses that did not occur in Florida, the offense only scored 10 points each time. 10. That does not win a competent NFL game.
     
  35. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Jesus, stop overreacting. Brady has made that throw a million times in his career. I haven’t even come close to putting the blame on him for this loss. But in that instance there was a play to be made but he was obviously looking end zone.
     
  36. MillarTime

    MillarTime Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, the standard is insane... he’s the GOAT and the single biggest reason this team has 5 championships. It’s fairly easy to see that him slipping a bit this year is part of the reason that the team is not looking like the machine it has looked like in past Decembers.
     
  37. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    That's the point, he's obviously looking end zone. That's where he should be looking on third down and game to go. So why is anyone pointing out that he "missed a wide open James White?" My God, it's insanity.

    And no, that's not a throw he's made a million times. He's sliding up in the pocket and to his right. When he steps up in and to the right, he almost never, ever throws across his body to the left across the field and over the pass rush. It doesn't happen. When he steps up like that, he's going up the field. Or he's checking down to someone in the middle of the field.
     
  38. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, it has happened. Give me a break.
     
  39. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    And if he pulled the ball back, turned to his left and got splattered by the defender before he got the ball off, you and the rest of these clowns would be in here pointing out how he's slipping and he just can't take a sack in that situation. Or if he let it fly, and it got tipped and picked off.

    Nothing short of perfection. Like I keep saying. It's ridiculous. Brady has had plenty of bad games. This wasn't one of them, and the fact that people are looking for shit, and literally making shit up to find reasons to pin the blame on him is fucking absurd. Shit, he completely outplayed Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers and Jared Goff today, but you know, he's just a middling QB, not even top 10 anymore....Fucking morons.
     
  40. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Perhaps put the keyboard/phone down and take a walk or something. It’s just football. The sun will come up tomorrow, even if someone makes a point that you don’t agree with.
     
  41. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    Brady wasn’t going to hit White there, he was being flushed out of the pocket to his right and there was a guy bearing down directly between him and White. He probably couldn’t even have turned and gotten it off. The decision was fine, the throw was ass. Need to give Gronk a chance, period.
     
  42. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    It's not a point I don't agree with, it's the absurdity. It shows a complete lack of knowledge of what's going on out there. Let me see if I can put this a different way. If you wanted him to throw that pass to James White, then that means you wanted Brady never to look towards the end zone. He can't do both in that situation. So, either he commits early and throws it to James White, knowing that's going to leave him one chance at the end zone, or he gives his receivers in the end zone a chance to get open.

    When the Pats snap the ball at the 21 yard line, it's going to take 3-4 seconds for the receivers to get down the field, into the end zone and turn back and look for the ball. Brady needs to give them that time to try to get open. If you stop the video at the 4 second mark, Brady has already stepped up into the pocket with pressure barreling him toward him from the left, so the only way he can throw to James White, is to literally turn his body into the pressure, hold his breath and throw it and hope he doesn't get hit first, because there is no way he can know how close the pressure is because he's looking towards the end zone.

    I personally would rather have Brady take two shots at the end zone, then commit to throwing it to James White in the flat, who will probably get 6-7 yards before the 7 defensive backs converge on him and either tackle him or run him out of bounds. I'd rather have 2 plays from the 21 than one play from the 14-15, but that's just me, and I imagine that's how Brady would feel.
     
  43. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I mean, I agree with you. He was looking end zone and was always going end zone with that throw. And it was the right read. But it was also physically possible to get it to White. It wouldn’t have been an easy play and he probably gets blasted doing it. I fully understand why he didn’t. But I’m also a White fan boy and I would have liked to see him get a chance in an alternate universe.

    End of the day, it just sucks that the OL put Brady in tough positions. Since Gordon was out of game, Gronk was really the only realistic target. Unfortunately, Pit knew this and had like 4 guys around him, including one guy undercutting any pass. It would have basically been impossible to complete a pass there. Because if this, I do wonder if we would have been better off trying to get 10ish yards on 3rd down, spike, and have 1 last throw from a more reasonable distance.
     
  44. geigercount

    geigercount lurker

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    I think 3 flags were thrown immediately on the Haden PI - perhaps it's not obvious but multiple refs saw it that way. The Jones penalty seemed to be a case where the crowd and the receiver convinced the ref who was good distance from the play.
     
  45. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Yeah this was my line of thinking. I think it's about 50-50 as well.
     
  46. NortheasternPJ

    NortheasternPJ Member SoSH Member

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    Fully agreed. My only complaint would be the 4th down throw. He throws that at the goal line, not 2 yards into the end zone where he tried to put it, Edelman has a good shot at muscling in for a TD or at least getting a 1st down. He was being pressured through and not settled so it's hard to blame him. He has a real pocket and he throws that as a laser to Edelman at his knees. It was a tough play though but we've seen him make it before. The team played like garbage so anything like this is nitpicking.
     
  47. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    Josh Allen might run for 250 yards on this team.
     
  48. kartvelo

    kartvelo Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Dont be silly. Once he hits the end zone he can't get any more yards on that run...
     
  49. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    Here is a Phillip Dorsett red zone TD from September.



    Here is another Phillip Dorsett red zone TD from September:



    Phillip Dorsett can run routes and get open. One of the places he can get open is in the red zone. The Patriots are absolutely terrible in the red zone and Dorsett can't even see the field. He has a skill set that Corpse Hogan, whose main skills seem to be running in a straight line and getting concussed, just can't match. The fact that he can't see the field anymore is an absolute coaching failure.
     
  50. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Ok so water under the bridge and this doesn't change anything of course. But it took me four plays. On Pittsburgh's fourth play they ran the ball and there were no less than FOUR guys holding Patriots' players with either full grabs of the jerseys outside the pads or arms totally hooked around defenders. Fourth play, FOUR guys holding. No flag. Here are some stills from that play.

    Runner takes the handoff. Their left tackle immediately grabs Flowers' jersey. Tackle's left hand is outside the pad, and he's got hold of it.

    [​IMG]

    Hightower (blocked by #71) begins to slide inside as he sees that's where the runner is going. Watch what #71 does next to prevent Hightower from getting where he wants to go.

    [​IMG]

    Uses his left arm to totally hook Hightower - just like Cannon was called for on that HUGE hold late in the game. Meanwhile, the left tackle still has a full handful of Flowers' jersey and begins tugging him away from the lane as Flowers reacts to the ballcarrier.

    Meanwhile, Guy, who had gotten good penetration and had forced the runner inside, turned to make a play. But the right guard said, uh, no.

    [​IMG]

    So at this point there are three guys holding. The left tackle on Flowers, as his left hand has a total handful of Flowers' jersey outside the pads. The right tackle hooking Hightower. And the right guard, who is using his right arm, hooked around Guy's neck for crying out loud.

    [​IMG]

    And then there is one more at the end for good measure.

    [​IMG]

    As McCourty tries to fill in, look what the tight end is doing to him. He's on his side, his left arm wrapped around McCourty's waist, and his right arm (which you can't see) is hooked around McCourty's chest.

    [​IMG]

    So on the fourth play of the game, no less than four Steelers were committing holding penalties equal to, or worse, than what the Patriots were called for. No flag. Four guys. No flag.

    The point isn't anything other than that this kind of thing happens on every play, yet it was the Patriots who got flagged for it, not the Steelers. And yes, it had a pretty large impact on the game.
     

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