The Evil Empire Revisited: Lakers General thread
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There's little doubt that this is the best matchup for LA. San Antonio is as old and slow as they are, so SA can't exploit LA's biggest weakness, which is defending fast and athletic teams.
Funny to see how it played out towards the end. LA wins on the last day to get the 7th spot, not just the 8th, and likewise OKC overtakes SA for the 1 spot. If either of these don't happen, LA plays OKC, which is a horrible matchup for them.
LA has a chance here. I think any bet with 5-1 or better odds is worth making.
Funny to see how it played out towards the end. LA wins on the last day to get the 7th spot, not just the 8th, and likewise OKC overtakes SA for the 1 spot. If either of these don't happen, LA plays OKC, which is a horrible matchup for them.
LA has a chance here. I think any bet with 5-1 or better odds is worth making.
DreamShake said:
I don't know what Nash's health status is, but as much as he's struggled this year I wonder if he comes back hobbled they shouldn't just use him as a Steve Kerr-style spot up shooter. He can still fill it from 3-point land at close to 44% and presumably with his back and knee woes until fully recovered he may not be able to penetrate well enough to be effective at the point.
That said, they'll still have to live with Nash on the defensive side.
Tony C said:
I can't see Nash having a huge impact in this series because whatever he does on offense, he will be murdered on the defensive side. He obviously can't guard Parker, and I can't imagine him guarding someone like Green because of all the picks he runs through, he would be shooting wide open threes all night. I guess they could match him up with Manu, but who knows how much Manu is even going to play?
Coach Kobe was Tweeting from his house during the game today:
https://twitter.com/kobebryant
Dwight was asked about it during the post-game press conference. He paused for a second and said "We're the ones out on the court."
https://twitter.com/kobebryant
Dwight was asked about it during the post-game press conference. He paused for a second and said "We're the ones out on the court."
You can sense from his tweets that Dwight comes off as an afterthought getting a polite mention here and there, but the only one he considers as a friend is Gasol.
Other than that, those tweets are entertaining.
Other than that, those tweets are entertaining.
The Lakers just suck. They have a bad coach, bad players and bad team chemistry. People keep expecting them to climb out of the abyss and become this contender that they were predicted to be, but in reality, they are what they currently are, an average NBA team. Howard is a total enigma, and I will never expect him to be anything more then an inconsistent highlight feature. If the Lakers were smart, they would not bring him back, and if Howard was smart, he would not come back. Both of those assumptions however, are highly questionable when you look at recent history.
Howard is a totally different player depending on how injured he is / whether he can recover. In that sense I agree with the "enigma" comment. At his peak he was arguably somewhere around the 3rd best player in the league, capable of carrying an average roster deep into the playoffs. The worrying thing for me wrt Howard is he doesn't seem to have improved his skill set or strength or intangibles with age / experience. We know we've already seen his peak in terms of pure athleticism. At least Shaq got stronger and bigger and tougher which mostly made up for his diminishing athleticism to give him some career longevity (though he also didn't increase his skill set). If Howard can't come back from injury and he is what we see right now & he doesn't work on his skills in the offseason, he's getting close to being "just" an average all star, not a truly dominant player who can carry a team. To summarize, he's kinda a risky guy to build around from an intangibles standpoint and to give a max deal to for a team with championship aspirations.
Steven A. Smith goes off on an impressive rant about Mike D'Antoni calling Kobe a "fan" after all the tweeting. I'm generally not that impressed by Smith, but damn, I was entertained.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9199359&categoryid=2378529
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9199359&categoryid=2378529
That was a good rant -- D'Antoni is really a bad coach. What's funny is they started winning at the end of the season doing exactly what all the courtside critics had been arguing -- play Gasol, put Gasol in the post, let Gasol create. And then Nash limps back into the line-up and D'Antoni goes back to the pick 'n roll offense which Nash simply can't run. Nash has to play, but as noted above it should be as a spot up shooter. Stubborn and self-righteous is no way to coach.
BigSoxFan said:
They have one season of purgatory and then tons of money to spend. If history tells us anything, it is that players will go the Lakers.
Dwight is an embarrassment, I know they should re-sign him, but you have to wonder if they would almost be better off with the sign and trade.
If I was Dwight, I would want to leave LA and go someplace else. Where? I think he would be a really nice fit in Houston. He would be going to a team that could easily contend if they added a big piece and their roster fits Howard nicely. Harden can be there to take a lot of the big game pressure off of Dwight, allowing Dwight to be free of having to take the last shot and to be the main scoring option, something that someone with his skill set really shouldn't be. The rest of the team is filled with rangy three point shooters, similar to his team in Orlando. If they can somehow work out the rotation, they could even have Asik to help him patrol the boards and protect the rim, like Gortat did in Orlando. They also have a coach who knows big men and a savvy GM who most likely won't fuck up royaly like Otis Smith did.
DreamShake said:
If you were Dwight, you would take the extra $30M dollars, which is still an extra ~$18M after you account for tax differences between CA and TX. He is sign and trade eligible, but that costs Asik and picks at the least.
Why would he agree to a sign and trade? Houston has the cap space so they can just sign him outright.Gunfighter 09 said:
DreamShake said:
yep, the $30 million (or $18 million, I guess) is reason #1 Howard stays in L.A.. Reason #2 is that...it's L.A.. Reason #3 is that he knows he'll look like an idiot if he bails on the Lakers -- he'll get killed in the press.
Put all those reasons together into one reason that he'll stay: he's an idiot. Completely agree with the logic above and L.A. is really a no-win situation for him. No win in the sense that they won't win next year. No win in that they're locked into D'antoni, who sucks. No win in that who doesn't think that last years of Kobe's career will be a shit show -- he is not the sort to go gently into the night.
If I'm Howard I'm fleeing to a great situation like Houston where he can be a hero for making them a top-flight contender, rescuing his rep. But he won't.
It probably is worth noting that Cleveland did them a huge favor hiring Mike Brown. Now they are only paying one coach, so the temperature on D'Antoni's seat might be rising. If Jeannie wins the power struggle with her brother, it wouldn't be surprising to see Phil back in some role.
yeah, from the Lakers side fixing it starts with getting rid of Jim Buss and replacing him with Jeannie. Jackson then becomes Pat Riley, with a front office possible few years as coach.
They'd still face huge challenges, but they can meet them giving their financial resources and location desirability, especially if Phil was back. Short-term if you want to compete you bring back Pau and Howard and make a medical determination on Kobe. They're saying he'll be back next year. If not, work out an amnesty deal where it's pre-arranged that he's brought back the following year. The bigs -- Howard, Pau, and Jordan Hill (who was looking really good before his injury) -- would be studly. MWP is still helpful but it's hard for me to see Nash being a plus even if healthy. They'd really only have Blake as a solid backcourt option, but they would have the money to pay for solid complementary players and make a run at it. If Kobe will be healthy by mid-season, then amnesty MWP, which would at least give them resources to add some speed to the backcourt. But if they do load up for one more run with Kobe, a coach like Jackson would be key to handle his reintegration.
The blow it up option is to sign Howard, amnesty or trade Gasol, and make all moves about the post-Kobe Lakers and attracting some of the stars that'll be available then. In this scenario maybe you keep D'Antoni as a coach so he can preside over the titanic for a year and let you fire him after the season so you can choose a coach to the liking of whichever stars you're looking for, per the wishes of class of 2014 free agents. Then it becomes a Miami Heat situation with one star (Wade/Howard), one well-respected eminence in the front office (Riley/Jackson), an attractive/warm city (Miami/L.A.), and enough money to bring in two studs around Howard along with a new coach.
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They'd still face huge challenges, but they can meet them giving their financial resources and location desirability, especially if Phil was back. Short-term if you want to compete you bring back Pau and Howard and make a medical determination on Kobe. They're saying he'll be back next year. If not, work out an amnesty deal where it's pre-arranged that he's brought back the following year. The bigs -- Howard, Pau, and Jordan Hill (who was looking really good before his injury) -- would be studly. MWP is still helpful but it's hard for me to see Nash being a plus even if healthy. They'd really only have Blake as a solid backcourt option, but they would have the money to pay for solid complementary players and make a run at it. If Kobe will be healthy by mid-season, then amnesty MWP, which would at least give them resources to add some speed to the backcourt. But if they do load up for one more run with Kobe, a coach like Jackson would be key to handle his reintegration.
The blow it up option is to sign Howard, amnesty or trade Gasol, and make all moves about the post-Kobe Lakers and attracting some of the stars that'll be available then. In this scenario maybe you keep D'Antoni as a coach so he can preside over the titanic for a year and let you fire him after the season so you can choose a coach to the liking of whichever stars you're looking for, per the wishes of class of 2014 free agents. Then it becomes a Miami Heat situation with one star (Wade/Howard), one well-respected eminence in the front office (Riley/Jackson), an attractive/warm city (Miami/L.A.), and enough money to bring in two studs around Howard along with a new coach.
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Even if LA makes all the adjustments, I still can't see them as a title contender. Kobe played out of his mind for parts of this season and they still barely made the playoffs. He probably is not going to be a factor for at least a majority of the next season, so you are going to war with Howard and Gasol. How did that work out this season?
I think a big misconception in this whole thing is that Howard is a franchise player when in reality, he isn't. He may have the talent to be a top 5 player, but he lacks the composure and the consistency to be the guy on team with as much pressure as LA.
It's also worth noting that the Western Conference is probably going to be even tougher next season. Because of their youth, OKC, GS, DEN and HOU are definitely going to be better. LAC and MEM also have certain young players who could make the jump next year. With Howard and Gasol, coupled with D'Antoni and no backcourt, LA is probably a borderline playoff team.
I think a big misconception in this whole thing is that Howard is a franchise player when in reality, he isn't. He may have the talent to be a top 5 player, but he lacks the composure and the consistency to be the guy on team with as much pressure as LA.
It's also worth noting that the Western Conference is probably going to be even tougher next season. Because of their youth, OKC, GS, DEN and HOU are definitely going to be better. LAC and MEM also have certain young players who could make the jump next year. With Howard and Gasol, coupled with D'Antoni and no backcourt, LA is probably a borderline playoff team.
I'll defend Howard here a bit.
First, with a very mediocre supporting cast in Orlando he did take them to the finals so I think showed he can be the centerpiece stud.
Second, no one wins alone -- Lebron or Durant or whomever need not just a strong supporting cast but also stars playing with them.
Third, even with a skeletal team over the 2nd half of the season the Lakers had the 4th best record in the NBA, that's largely without Nash, Hill and includes some games without Blake and Gasol and the final few without Kobe. A healthy team next year with just that cast would be an easy playoff team.
Fourth, the playoff embarrassment took place not just without Kobe but, really, without anyone but Howard, Gasol and a bunch of D-League types. Don't get me wrong -- I don't think with a healthy Kobe and Nash and MWP and Jordan Hill and Blake that the Lakers advance or even win more than 2 games. But when losing Jodie Meeks is a major blow because you have to go to a D-Leaguer, well it is fair to mention injuries.
Fifth, Howard was in recovery this year and still played quite strong. No, like other centers (Shaq, notably) you can't rely on him at the end of the game. But even in recovery he was a defensive force and a great rebounder, and an efficient scorer even if not a crunch time creator. Saying he's not consistent is silly. He is very consistent. As for your mention of composure, he does seem to be missing a' determination under pressure' gene, that's for sure.....hence the need for the right complementary players.
Sixth, as an example, does anyone not think that if Howard was swapped in for Bosh as one of the 'big 3' in Miami that Miami would not be improved?
There's no doubt in my mind that the Lakers will try and must re-sign Howard if they want to compete. He's a major piece of the puzzle and putting this year's failure on him is fun, but not really fair.
First, with a very mediocre supporting cast in Orlando he did take them to the finals so I think showed he can be the centerpiece stud.
Second, no one wins alone -- Lebron or Durant or whomever need not just a strong supporting cast but also stars playing with them.
Third, even with a skeletal team over the 2nd half of the season the Lakers had the 4th best record in the NBA, that's largely without Nash, Hill and includes some games without Blake and Gasol and the final few without Kobe. A healthy team next year with just that cast would be an easy playoff team.
Fourth, the playoff embarrassment took place not just without Kobe but, really, without anyone but Howard, Gasol and a bunch of D-League types. Don't get me wrong -- I don't think with a healthy Kobe and Nash and MWP and Jordan Hill and Blake that the Lakers advance or even win more than 2 games. But when losing Jodie Meeks is a major blow because you have to go to a D-Leaguer, well it is fair to mention injuries.
Fifth, Howard was in recovery this year and still played quite strong. No, like other centers (Shaq, notably) you can't rely on him at the end of the game. But even in recovery he was a defensive force and a great rebounder, and an efficient scorer even if not a crunch time creator. Saying he's not consistent is silly. He is very consistent. As for your mention of composure, he does seem to be missing a' determination under pressure' gene, that's for sure.....hence the need for the right complementary players.
Sixth, as an example, does anyone not think that if Howard was swapped in for Bosh as one of the 'big 3' in Miami that Miami would not be improved?
There's no doubt in my mind that the Lakers will try and must re-sign Howard if they want to compete. He's a major piece of the puzzle and putting this year's failure on him is fun, but not really fair.
Tony C said:
You make some really good points, definitely with the injuries LA suffered, and they did finish hot down the stretch.
I really do not feel that Howard is a centerpiece for a championship team. His run in Orlando to the finals strikes me more as a fluke then anything else. Remember, the Celtics probably would have dispatched them in the EC semis if it wasn't for KG going down, and then they slipped by Cleveland because Lebron's teammates killed him.
I think Howard is a very polarizing player, and I have a theory that he performs best when the pressure is low. During that Orlando run, very little was expected of him and his team, because they were the Magic and his supporting cast was lackluster. Whatever team success they reached in the playoffs was a bonus. Nobody would have killed them if they lost to Boston or Cleveland.
In Los Angeles, there is so much pressure on him to succeed that he does not play with that sort of freedom that he did in Orlando. He actually reminds me a bit of Karl Malone, although Malone had the benefit of playing basically his entire career in a small market with low expectations. Not all players are built for the bright lights, and Howard is one of them.
Yep...and, ergo, all the more reason relatively low key Houston would be good.
Another sign of his Karl Malone-ish nature (which I think is a decent analogy) is that another good situation for him is Atlanta, but apparently he doesn't want to go there because it's his home town and he wants to be away from there and his dad, who supposedly is some sort of domineering figure. Really? Daddy scares you?
Another sign of his Karl Malone-ish nature (which I think is a decent analogy) is that another good situation for him is Atlanta, but apparently he doesn't want to go there because it's his home town and he wants to be away from there and his dad, who supposedly is some sort of domineering figure. Really? Daddy scares you?
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I don't care who you are, family stuff can be complicated. I don't think it is fair to criticize a guy for not wanting to play in a city where his dad lives. We like to imbue in sports figures (or celebrities in general, really) a certain sense of power or dominance over their lives and circumstances, but the unique identities and hurts that can be present with family run deep. I just can't begrudge a guy, any guy, who'd prefer to live/work in a city apart from his family.Tony C said:
swingin val said:
CP3 and Dwight Howard are both grandfathered in since their deals were signed under the old CBA.
Wow. Did anyone catch that tasty little morsel?
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22278119/stan-van-gundy-says-he-will-not-coach-next-season
Can you imagine Dwight picking up a team just because it had Van Gundy? Unbelievable.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22278119/stan-van-gundy-says-he-will-not-coach-next-season
Can you imagine Dwight picking up a team just because it had Van Gundy? Unbelievable.
I haven't heard this anywhere else. Are you saying that Howard can be signed and traded from the Lakers and still get the 5 year max?
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I can imagine him picking a team that doesn't have D'Antoni. One of the two of them will not be in LA come October.Nick Kaufman said:
Is d'antoni the worst coach signing in recent memory? (Jason Kidd awaits judgement)
It made little sense to the talent on the roster, it was expensive and long (with no obvious reason for either). As expected he was horrible at least at first. Gasol shooting threes etc, and being told to provide floor spacing.
You have twin towers and you play spacing games over the post.
Anyway, other than Nash there was no obvious fit, he was just run out of new York where he helped run amare into the ground and then immediately replaced by a coach who took the same roster and got results immediately.
It's just bizarre, then and now. The contract so big it's hard to swallow (ESP as they are already swallowing the salary of another coach who already found work)
It made little sense to the talent on the roster, it was expensive and long (with no obvious reason for either). As expected he was horrible at least at first. Gasol shooting threes etc, and being told to provide floor spacing.
You have twin towers and you play spacing games over the post.
Anyway, other than Nash there was no obvious fit, he was just run out of new York where he helped run amare into the ground and then immediately replaced by a coach who took the same roster and got results immediately.
It's just bizarre, then and now. The contract so big it's hard to swallow (ESP as they are already swallowing the salary of another coach who already found work)
Lots of speculation coming out that Metta will indeed get amnestied in the July 10-16 period which makes me wonder what Kupchak is hoping to do with Gasol. Some think the Kaman signing means that he is out the door which I find hilarious, though I am totally on the "totally blow it up and bottom out" bandwagon.
bbc23 said:
Seems like its pretty much a done deal.
http://tracking.si.com/2013/07/08/metta-world-peace-amnesty-clause-lakers-release-ron-artest/?sct=hp_t2_a3&eref=sihp
Kobe is not happy
RT @kobebryant Not cool w/@SteveBlake5 being gone AT ALL One of my closest teammates & psycho competitor GS picked up gem #smartmove
RT @kobebryant Not cool w/@SteveBlake5 being gone AT ALL One of my closest teammates & psycho competitor GS picked up gem #smartmove
The Lakers have the 5th worst record in the league now. It makes me feel old when thinking that Parker and Wiggins were less than a year old when Kobe was drafted.
They had three goals for today: 1. get under the tax to avoid future repeater penalties, 2. get more assets in terms of young, cheap players and 3. get worse for this year.
They failed in all three areas and they now have to deal with Gasol's giant cap hold this summer, though they will likely have him as a sign and trade asset this summer. Jordan Hill is too good of a player for them to hold on to when they need to be tanking and Kaman does nothing except cost money and make them slightly more competitive. A real fail all the way around, Jimmy Buss is clearly not letting Kupchak run the show.
They failed in all three areas and they now have to deal with Gasol's giant cap hold this summer, though they will likely have him as a sign and trade asset this summer. Jordan Hill is too good of a player for them to hold on to when they need to be tanking and Kaman does nothing except cost money and make them slightly more competitive. A real fail all the way around, Jimmy Buss is clearly not letting Kupchak run the show.
Also, Kobe wants a new coach next year: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2014-03-12/kobe-bryant-knee-injury-shut-down-lakers-coach-mike-dantoni-carmelo-anthony-nba-free-agency-2014
DrewDawg said:
D'Antoni being fired seemed like a foregone conclusion to me. They still intend to make a push for Carmelo, and Carmelo and D'Antoni have a bad history.