The Craig Kimbrel Thread

[Al Zarilla]

Perhaps most of us know/are familiar with the story?[/B][/I]

Bouton related the story in his follow up book I'm Glad You Didn't Take it Personally. It's as odd as it sounds. Guy just loved having his ass hammered by fruit. (I had remembered it as grapefruit,) He quoted an incredulous Radatz telling him about the story and then saying "and this was back when I was bringing it" for emphasis.

I've never run across it and I've been a baseball junkie for a long time. I read Bouton's first book but not his second. I would think throwing grapefruits vs. oranges might help ruin a guy's arm, but what didn't back then (I mean innings abuse, guys not taking care of themselves because not as much $$$ riding on a baseball career).

Ellis Kinder, mentioned above, apparently bent the elbow a lot and supposedly was out 'til 4:30 am the night before the pennant clinching game with NY in 1949 (lost of course, but he pitched very well). They could have nipped the curse in the bud right there, needing only one of two but losing both. In an alternate universe, they win one of them and then beat Brooklyn. In 1946 they also came close to not ever letting the word curse get attached to them, but, alas.

 

[koufax37]

Close to automatic 9th inning save closers are fairly common. What Kimbrel is doing is not, and is pretty breathtaking. The level of dominance he is showing is astounding, but also that as a result Farrell is not afraid to use him in the 8th in key situations or in tie games on the road is a great sign.

It is great to have him lock down wins in the ninth all summer long, but to be a special weapon that adds value to an otherwise overrated position, being able to dominate key moments with runners on is essential in October. I'm really excited about him getting Carson Smith out there with him, both to minimize the frequency stressful situations in the 8th, and to back him up the next day after a five out save, or to pitch the lower stress 9th after a Kimbrel 8th inning appearance.

 

[chrisfont9]

Perhaps most of us know/are familiar with the story?

Bouton related the story in his follow up book I'm Glad You Didn't Take it Personally. It's as odd as it sounds. Guy just loved having his ass hammered by fruit. (I had remembered it as grapefruit,) He quoted an incredulous Radatz telling him about the story and then saying "and this was back when I was bringing it" for emphasis.

Huh! ok then... and thx

 

[redsoxstiff]

How has nobody already asked about this?

Also... Ellis Kinder? Lee Smith? Actually I don't think the Sox' version of Smith was all that great. I know nothing about Kinder but Stiff you probably remember him?

he was big ime also a soak...It seems that
I remember
an occasion where Ellie was not going to pitch but sure enough was put in
and pitched his ass off, dead drunk...I can't rely on memory but stet.

 

[grimshaw]

He is on pace for 5 WAR. The highest relief season by WAR of all time was Bruce Sutter' 1977 season where he had 5.2 and threw 104 innings.

Eric "He who should not be named" Gagne had a 4.7 season in 2003. Dibble cracked 4 in 1990 where he wasn't the primary closer.

 

[joe dokes]

Close to automatic 9th inning save closers are fairly common. What Kimbrel is doing is not, and is pretty breathtaking. The level of dominance he is showing is astounding, but also that as a result Farrell is not afraid to use him in the 8th in key situations or in tie games on the road is a great sign.

It is great to have him lock down wins in the ninth all summer long, but to be a special weapon that adds value to an otherwise overrated position, being able to dominate key moments with runners on is essential in October. I'm really excited about him getting Carson Smith out there with him, both to minimize the frequency stressful situations in the 8th, and to back him up the next day after a five out save, or to pitch the lower stress 9th after a Kimbrel 8th inning appearance.

So true about turning a great closer into a "special weapon."
Even without a dependable Smith, I wonder if some internal research has led them to a "lets win today and worry about tomorrow tomorrow" approach. I would think that a five out save would have the most impact in keeping Kimbrel from going 3 straight days. Maybe you win more games by using the closer in the 8th than needing him 3 straight.
The micro version is "lets lock down the 8th, and maybe we wont need him in the 9th." That happened once already (minnesota).

 

[joyofsox]

Batters against Kimbrel:

Right-handed: 0-for-45
In May: 1-for-40
In non-save situations: 1-for-23
After 0-1 count: 2-for-54
On 0 Days of Rest: 0-for-18
On 1 Day of Rest: 0-for-19
Night Games: 1-for-40
Orioles: 0-for-7

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

So you basically want to be facing him in a night game in May with an 0-1 count if it's a save situation!

 

[moondog80]

He is on pace for 5 WAR. The highest relief season by WAR of all time was Bruce Sutter' 1977 season where he had 5.2 and threw 104 innings.

Eric "He who should not be named" Gagne had a 4.7 season in 2003. Dibble cracked 4 in 1990 where he wasn't the primary closer.

I'm surprised the record is that low, I figured there would be some guy from 1930 that pitched like 170 innings in relief. Regardless, I wonder what the record is on a per-inning basis, assuming a minimum of 50 IP or so.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I'm surprised the record is that low, I figured there would be some guy from 1930 that pitched like 170 innings in relief. Regardless, I wonder what the record is on a per-inning basis, assuming a minimum of 50 IP or so.

I'm not sure it is true. Rich Gossage in 1975 had a WAR of 8.2 in 141.2 ip. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gossari01.shtml Guess it might depend on what version of WAR you are using.

To answer your other question, it's Craig Kimbrel in 2012. He put up 3.3 WAR in 62.2 ip. Well, actually it's Goose's 1975 season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&as=result_pitcher&offset=0&type=p&min_year_season=1901&max_year_season=2017&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&isActive=either&isHOF=either&isAllstar=either&throws=any&games_started=60&role=reliever&games_relieved=100&qualifiersSeason=minips&minIpValS=50&minDecValS=14&mingamesValS=40&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minIpValC=1000&minDecValC=100&mingamesValC=200&c1criteria=WAR_pitch&c1gtlt=gt&c1val=3&c2criteria=IPouts&c2gtlt=lt&c2val=100&c3gtlt=gt&c4gtlt=gt&c5gtlt=gt&c5val=1.0&location=pob&locationMatch=is&orderby=SO&number_matched=1

 

[redsoxstiff]

Gossage wore very thick eyeglasses,when he took the mound he would slowly and meticulously clean the lenses and generally threw the first warmup pitch that would hit the screen about 10 feet up .As he grew mucho hard the on deck batter was very relaxed at that point...

 

[Average Reds]

I believe you are thinking of Ryan Duren, who wore thick glasses, had a blazing fastball and warmed up precisely as you have described. (Gossage never wore corrective lenses.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/sports/08duren.html

 

[grimshaw]

I'm not sure it is true. Rich Gossage in 1975 had a WAR of 8.2 in 141.2 ip. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gossari01.shtml Guess it might depend on what version of WAR you are using.

That is bizarre. Fangraphs had that season at 4. I think b-ref WAR doesn't factor in FIP and fangraphs does, but not sure how that explains such a huge discrepancy.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

That is bizarre. Fangraphs had that season at 4. I think b-ref WAR doesn't factor in FIP and fangraphs does, but not sure how that explains such a huge discrepancy.

Sutter's season was a 6.1 fwiw. 6.1 to 5.2 is a lot closer than 8.2 and 4. That's an insane gap.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I believe you are thinking of Ryan Duren, who wore thick glasses, had a blazing fastball and warmed up precisely as you have described. (Gossage never wore corrective lenses.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/sports/08duren.html

Ryne Duren. Don't you hate the guy who corrects the corrector? Ryne was maybe half crazy like the article talks about.

 

[Average Reds]

That's what I get for posting on an iPad. (Fucking autocorrect.)

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Duren had 2 great years in 1958 & 59 then some historically wild ones:

1960: 49 BB in 49 IP
1961: 79 BB in 104 IP
1962: 57 BB in 71.1 IP

What is interesting in looking at the post-war era is how many walks were issued compared to the last 30 years.

He did strike out 630 guys in 589.1 career innings which for that time frame is over-the-top incredible.

 

[rlsb]

Ryne Duren. Don't you hate the guy who corrects the corrector? Ryne was maybe half crazy like the article talks about.

I first read of Ryne Duren's plight in the book Dynasty by Peter Golenbock in 1978. His was a fight to finally overcoming his alcoholism and then dedicating himself to helping others with their alcohol related problems. He had a quite a life in the 1960s that resulted in at least two suicide attempts one in Washington and the other in San Antonio. He recounted in the book that he drove onto train tracks in San Antonio on New Year's Eve in 1965 waiting for a train to take his life. He certainly turned his life around. This SABR biography recounts some of this.
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/7b2de9c9

 

[Al Zarilla]

I first read of Ryne Duren's plight in the book Dynasty by Peter Golenbock in 1978. His was a fight to finally overcoming his alcoholism and then dedicating himself to helping others with their alcohol related problems. He had a quite a life in the 1960s that resulted in at least two suicide attempts one in Washington and the other in San Antonio. He recounted in the book that he drove onto train tracks in San Antonio on New Year's Eve in 1965 waiting for a train to take his life. He certainly turned his life around. This SABR biography recounts some of this.
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/7b2de9c9

Thanks risb. That's quite a story about Ryne Duren. I read the whole thing. Had to laugh about his hitting Jimmy Piersall in the on deck circle to heighten his wildness and half blind legend.

 

[redsoxstiff]

Ryne it was...

 

[charlieoscar]

In response to my comment about Radatz owning Mantle, SumnerH said:

.753 OPS is bad for Mantle, but not crazy owned.

Basically, 19 PA is SSS and can be interpreted many ways depending on what you focus on.

I've been out of town.

Yeah, it is a smaller sample size but if you sort his results against pitchers by ascending plate appearances, Radatz was the first pitcher to record double-digit strikeout totals against Mantle. There were other pitchers, including Luis Tiant, who he didn't hit well but in 16 at bats (19 PA) Mantle only made one out against Radatz that was not a strikeout. After his first 10 PA against Radatz, his line was .000/.200/.000/.200. A home run the next time up raised his OPS to .717 and in the last season he faced Radatz he managed a single, double and a walk in his last four plate appearances. By this time Radatz was on his last legs.

Three of Mantle's K's were from foul drag bunts when his team was trailing late in games. Mantle felt he had a better chance of getting on base with a bunt than hitting away in those situations? That wouldn't be because he had such difficulty hitting Radatz, would it? As you say, it may be interpreted in many ways. I tend to choose mine.

 

[Al Zarilla]

In response to my comment about Radatz owning Mantle, SumnerH said:



I've been out of town.

Yeah, it is a smaller sample size but if you sort his results against pitchers by ascending plate appearances, Radatz was the first pitcher to record double-digit strikeout totals against Mantle. There were other pitchers, including Luis Tiant, who he didn't hit well but in 16 at bats (19 PA) Mantle only made one out against Radatz that was not a strikeout. After his first 10 PA against Radatz, his line was .000/.200/.000/.200. A home run the next time up raised his OPS to .717 and in the last season he faced Radatz he managed a single, double and a walk in his last four plate appearances. By this time Radatz was on his last legs.

Three of Mantle's K's were from foul drag bunts when his team was trailing late in games. Mantle felt he had a better chance of getting on base with a bunt than hitting away in those situations? That wouldn't be because he had such difficulty hitting Radatz, would it? As you say, it may be interpreted in many ways. I tend to choose mine.

Mantle bunting with two strikes with those bad knees of his really does say something.

 

[dbn]

The feeling I have when after he throws the first pitch rivals how I felt when Koji went through that stretch in 2013 where he was just automatic. And I doubt the Padres board has a thread titled. "The Manuel Margot, Javier Guerra, Carlos Asuaje, and Logan Allen thread" So fun to watch him right now.

I had to Google it.

http://www.forums.mlb.com/discussions/San_Diego_Padres/ml-padres?redirCnt=1 nothing here.

http://www.thepowderblues.com/forum/forum/los-angeles-chargers-forum-nfl-forum-padres-forum/san-diego-padres-forum despite no post since 22-May, there isn't such a forum on the top page.

http://www.gaslampball.com nothing here, either. The article Young Padres better than old Padres has mention of "And Margot seems solid in every area (I think we’ll see him walk more and strike out less later in the year)." which might be offset by "This year’s Drew Pomeranz (without the years of team control)..."

Then I stopped looking. It was getting too sad.

 

[charlieoscar]

Mantle bunting with two strikes with those bad knees of his really does say something.

Like he thought he had a better chance of getting on base by bunting, bad knees or not, than he did by taking a full swing against Radatz?

 

[streeter88]

Another successful outing by Kimbrel tonight, but the 8th vs the 9th looked like two different pitchers -- 2016 "cat strangled in alley" Kimbrel vs. 2017 "lullaby" Kimbrel. Guess the Toilet will do that sometimes...

And he did still manage to strike out 5 of 6 batters faced. Filthy.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Another successful outing by Kimbrel tonight, but the 8th vs the 9th looked like two different pitchers -- 2016 "cat strangled in alley" Kimbrel vs. 2017 "lullaby" Kimbrel. Guess the Toilet will do that sometimes...

Yeah, not really. He struck out the first batter he faced in the 8th on a nasty pitch, which should have ended things quickly.

 

[edoug]

What's the record for games when a pitcher has more strike outs than outs?

 

[BigChara33]

I've never seen a pitcher so dominant before. It's absurd how nasty he's pitching.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

With a small blip last year (at least partially due to injury) this is who he is and always has been. He's a freak.

 

[tims4wins]

This is absurd. 11 hits plus walks vs. 53 K

 

[j44thor]

Yeah, not really. He struck out the first batter he faced in the 8th on a nasty pitch, which should have ended things quickly.

What was most impressive was even after an unnecessarily long 8th he was completely dominant in the 9th. All too often we see closers struggle in the 9th after a tough 8th.

 

[Detts]

He is on pace for 5 WAR. The highest relief season by WAR of all time was Bruce Sutter' 1977 season where he had 5.2 and threw 104 innings.

Eric "He who should not be named" Gagne had a 4.7 season in 2003. Dibble cracked 4 in 1990 where he wasn't the primary closer.

Rob Dibble gave up the game winning double to Julio Franco in the 1990 all star game. I still remember Franco's quote after the game: "He throw thee ball hard, but he throw thee ball straight"

 

[Bowlerman9]

What's the record for games when a pitcher has more strike outs than outs?

I think he might have it with 3. Not only is he one of (I believe) 4 pitchers with multiple 4 K in 1 IP games, but it appears he is the first pitcher ever with 5 K in 1.1 IP.

 

[joe dokes]

Agree with the strategy or not, but it appears that there's thought involved, which is all that I'm interested in (I think the headline is accurate, but the story is about more than that):

http://www.csnne.com/boston-red-sox/overpowering-craig-kimbrel-prefers-be-used-one-inning

 

[NobodyInteresting]

What's interesting to me is that we're apparently seeing a new level of dominance from elite relievers, since Kimbrel isn't alone

Kimbrel: 26.2 IP - 1.01 ERA - 0.25 FIP - 53 K - 5 BB - K/9 17.89 - BB/9 1.69 - HR/9 0.34

Ranks only 8th in ERA (Qualified relievers) behind Miller, Betances, Rivero, Iglesias, Neshek, Edwards Jnr, Davis. Yes there are 7 relievers out there who've given up fewer ER than Kimbrel, even though barely anyone here is old enough to remember the last time a hitter even saw one of Kimbrel's pitches.
Ranks 1st in FIP, but Jansen is right there with him (0.28)
Ranks 1st in K/9, but 5 other guys are above 15 on that metric (Betances, Knebel, Jansen, Kahnle, Hoover)
Ranks 19th on HR/9 (Miller and Betances haven't given up a HR yet, Iglesias and Jansen have one each)

Jansen's line in particular is very similar: 23 IP - 1.17 ERA - 0.28 FIP - 40 K - 0 BB - K/9 15.65 - BB/9 0.00 - HR/9 0.39

People like Trevor Rosenthal aren't even getting a mention in this analysis - he has 35 K / 8 BB in 21 IP and those numbers leave him firmly in the next tier down, even though he's only given up 12 hits and 1 HR.

This is important of course, because having a weapon that's almost perfect isn't so valuable in a world where everyone has a guy who is almost almost perfect. Presumably there are threads like this all over the country, extolling the virtues of the local unhittable guy. To be clear, I think (aside from Jansen, perhaps) Kimbrel has been the best so far. But he's been the best in a world where a whole bunch have been very, very good.

 

[joe dokes]

This is important of course, because having a weapon that's almost perfect isn't so valuable in a world where everyone has a guy who is almost almost perfect. Presumably there are threads like this all over the country, extolling the virtues of the local unhittable guy. To be clear, I think (aside from Jansen, perhaps) Kimbrel has been the best so far. But he's been the best in a world where a whole bunch have been very, very good.

That's interesting. One way to make the weapon more valuable is to use it more. But, of course, not so much that it becomes significantly less effective. If more use makes Kimbrel only "really damn good" instead of "historically superhuman," it may add up to a few more wins. At least that's the plan, I suppose.

I also haven't looked much further, but Jansen, the guy who might be better, has also been used for longer outings several times.

 

[MikeM]

What's interesting to me is that we're apparently seeing a new level of dominance from elite relievers, since Kimbrel isn't alone

Kimbrel: 26.2 IP - 1.01 ERA - 0.25 FIP - 53 K - 5 BB - K/9 17.89 - BB/9 1.69 - HR/9 0.34

Ranks only 8th in ERA (Qualified relievers) behind Miller, Betances, Rivero, Iglesias, Neshek, Edwards Jnr, Davis. Yes there are 7 relievers out there who've given up fewer ER than Kimbrel, even though barely anyone here is old enough to remember the last time a hitter even saw one of Kimbrel's pitches.
Ranks 1st in FIP, but Jansen is right there with him (0.28)
Ranks 1st in K/9, but 5 other guys are above 15 on that metric (Betances, Knebel, Jansen, Kahnle, Hoover)
Ranks 19th on HR/9 (Miller and Betances haven't given up a HR yet, Iglesias and Jansen have one each)

Jansen's line in particular is very similar: 23 IP - 1.17 ERA - 0.28 FIP - 40 K - 0 BB - K/9 15.65 - BB/9 0.00 - HR/9 0.39

People like Trevor Rosenthal aren't even getting a mention in this analysis - he has 35 K / 8 BB in 21 IP and those numbers leave him firmly in the next tier down, even though he's only given up 12 hits and 1 HR.

This is important of course, because having a weapon that's almost perfect isn't so valuable in a world where everyone has a guy who is almost almost perfect. Presumably there are threads like this all over the country, extolling the virtues of the local unhittable guy. To be clear, I think (aside from Jansen, perhaps) Kimbrel has been the best so far. But he's been the best in a world where a whole bunch have been very, very good.

Couldn't you basically make the same overall summary analysis with every other position in baseball though?

Or more specifically does that same "isn't so valuable" apply beyond relief pitchers as well?

 

[edoug]

I think he might have it with 3. Not only is he one of (I believe) 4 pitchers with multiple 4 K in 1 IP games, but it appears he is the first pitcher ever with 5 K in 1.1 IP.

Thanks

 

[charlieoscar]

I think he might have it with 3. Not only is he one of (I believe) 4 pitchers with multiple 4 K in 1 IP games, but it appears he is the first pitcher ever with 5 K in 1.1 IP.

While it was only an exhibition game, Joe Niekro of the Astros struck out five Twins in the first inning at the Louisiana Superdome on April 7, 1976 after Rod Carew led off with a double. There were five passed balls in that inning.

It has also been done more than once in a minor league game:
Mark Montgomery with Charleston of the South Atlantic League on July 1, 2011
Tyler Herb of the Arizona League Mariners on June 30, 2014
Andrew Kittredge of High Desert in the California League on July 1, 2014
James Reeves (4)/Andrew Schwaab (1) of Charleston of the South Atlantic League on April 21, 2016 are some recent occurences.

 

[Flynn4ever]

Chuck Finley struck out four batters three times in his career. Only four players have done it multiple times in official MLB games.

 

[NobodyInteresting]

Couldn't you basically make the same overall summary analysis with every other position in baseball though?

Or more specifically does that same "isn't so valuable" apply beyond relief pitchers as well?

Yes of course, for your guy to be really valuable everyone else's guy has to be not-so-valuable. Regardless of position. The point was more that here we are considering whether Kimbrel is having the greatest relief pitching season of all time, and it's not clear he's even having the greatest of this season, and he's pretty much one bad outing from having numbers that don't stand out at all.

I mean, remember when Paplebon was unhittable? Just totally dominant. We were lucky to have such a sure-thing 9th inning guy. There was probably a thread similar to this one in fact.

His best season by ERA was 2006 when his ERA was 0.92. That would rank 8th this year.
His FIP from that year (2.14) would rank him 22nd this year
His K/9 from that year (9.88) would rank him 73rd this year

His best season by FIP was 2011 when his FIP was 1.53. That would rank 8th this year.
His ERA from that year (2.94) would rank him 71st this year
His K/9 from that year (12.17) would rank him 23rd this year

I don't have the energy to run K%-BB% numbers, which would be what I'd most care about, but the story would be the same. Dominant relievers in 2017 are way more dominant than dominant relievers only 5-10 years ago were.

Someone generating Paplebon's numbers is just another guy in the modern era. If he's in the NL there's a decent chance you haven't even heard of him. The numbers that top relievers are putting up in today's game are mind-blowing, and it's not just Kimbrel.

I think Joe Dokes raises a great point - it's basically impossible for a pure 9th inning closer to be exceptional nowadays because too many other guys are too good too. Which is why one of the more encouraging things this year, for me at least, has been the use of Kimbrel at key moments earlier in the game. Especially since it hasn't (so far at least) seemed to adversely affect him.

 

[Devizier]

I don't have the energy to run K%-BB% numbers, which would be what I'd most care about, but the story would be the same. Dominant relievers in 2017 are way more dominant than dominant relievers only 5-10 years ago were.

This is why Eckersley's run with the A's is so remarkable (to use one example). Now, practically every team has an Eckersley of their own.

 

[charlieoscar]

Also... Ellis Kinder? Lee Smith? Actually I don't think the Sox' version of Smith was all that great. I know nothing about Kinder but Stiff you probably remember him?

Aah, Ellis Kinder. Began his MLB career at age 31 and was with the St. Louis Browns at Fenway Park in 1947 when a gull flying overhead dropped a smelt on him while he was on the mound. Also, in 1952 he had an OPS+ of -100 while in 1953 he had an OPS+ of +110 (32 AB and nothing vs. 29 AB and a SH for .379 /.379 /.414/ .793).

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

This is important of course, because having a weapon that's almost perfect isn't so valuable in a world where everyone has a guy who is almost almost perfect.

Is this really true, though? I mean, say Kimbrel is a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10. And say that this year everybody's got an 8 where 5-10 years ago most teams had a 7. In a league of sevens, an 8 will give you a competitive advantage; so will a 9, but it might be overkill. But in a league of eights, you have to have a 9 to have any advantage at all.

 

[charlieoscar]

Is this really true, though? I mean, say Kimbrel is a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10. And say that this year everybody's got an 8 where 5-10 years ago most teams had a 7. In a league of sevens, an 8 will give you a competitive advantage; so will a 9, but it might be overkill. But in a league of eights, you have to have a 9 to have any advantage at all.

Does it matter how you get to 9?

0+8+nine 9s averages out to 8 as does ten 8s. Is one preferable to the other in your scenario? Just asking.

 

[Oppo]

The Pirates, Rangers, and Tigers do not like this 8 average talk.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Does it matter how you get to 9?

0+8+nine 9s averages out to 8 as does ten 8s. Is one preferable to the other in your scenario? Just asking.

Not sure I understand the question; I'm just saying that the higher average performance is in absolute terms, the greater the value of a given incremental improvement over the average. The difference between a .325 and a .350 wOBA matters more in a league with a .325 average wOBA than it does in a league with a .300 average wOBA. Et cetera. Likewise, the difference between a Papelbon and a Kimbrel matters more, not less, in a league where everybody has a Papelbon than it does in a league where most teams don't. At least I'm having trouble seeing how it doesn't.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Does it matter how you get to 9?

0+8+nine 9s averages out to 8 as does ten 8s. Is one preferable to the other in your scenario? Just asking.

The 2003 Redsox struggled mightily because they lacked a 9 or 10. Of course, they probably didn't have any 7 or 8's either. I think any team with real playoff aspirations needs a 9 or 10 in the bullpen, I just don't think it necessarily needs to be the closer.

The 2017 Redsox, on the other hand, have their 10 and a few guys in the 7-8 range (you could argue a few would rank higher) that could easily step up in the 8-10 range (specifically Joe Kelly, maybe Barnes). I also wonder if having a guy like Kimbrel has a trickle down effect and makes a guy like Matt Barnes an 8 instead of a 7. The 2003 team everyone seemed worse but when Kim came aboard, it settled down.

 

[shaggydog2000]

I was told there would be no theoretical math. The arbitrary assignment of numbers and then calculations made therefrom are starting to make my brain hurt.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

The 2003 Redsox struggled mightily because they lacked a 9 or 10. Of course, they probably didn't have any 7 or 8's either. I think any team with real playoff aspirations needs a 9 or 10 in the bullpen, I just don't think it necessarily needs to be the closer.

The 2017 Redsox, on the other hand, have their 10 and a few guys in the 7-8 range (you could argue a few would rank higher) that could easily step up in the 8-10 range (specifically Joe Kelly, maybe Barnes). I also wonder if having a guy like Kimbrel has a trickle down effect and makes a guy like Matt Barnes an 8 instead of a 7. The 2003 team everyone seemed worse but when Kim came aboard, it settled down.

I won't disagree they could have used a closer[emoji767], but 'struggled mightily'? If struggling mightily means making the seventh game of the ALCS and losing because the manager didn't* use the bullpen, then sign me up for that any day.