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The Butler Did It

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by RedOctober3829, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    It is, it may also be the best offer they get. Saric is better than any other player I've seen mentioned outside of Kyle Lowry. I might have missed some names.

    I'm also a bit higher on Saric than most people are. The only other name I've seen floated around that piques my interest is Chriss, and I'd take Saric over him all day.

    edit: I'm not that high on Chriss, he's just young and athletic. If he improves his outside shot, he could be something. Justice WInslow and the other guys are what they are.
     
  2. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Saric looks like a bench depth player. Covington is a nice roleplayer so long as he has guys to play off of. The draft picks may not be worth much (assuming that they're even on the table). You don't start negotiations by asking for 30¢ on the dollar, because that's how you end up with 9¢.

    There's nothing stopping Philly from making a serious counteroffer. But I suspect that they're waiting on the sideline like everyone else.
     
  3. ManicCompression

    ManicCompression lurker

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    Can you go into more detail on this? Winslow and Chriss are about nine months apart in age. Why is Winslow less likely to improve his shooting? In the modern nba, I’d rather have Winslow, a plus defender who can potentially switch 1-4, than Chriss, a minus defender everywhere (and one who doesn’t appear to give a shit about being a good nba player).
     
  4. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    This goes back to my point of the dysfunction of the Wolves front office at this present time. Thibs don't care bout no draft picks since he's coaching/trading for this season only. When you're talking about packages that HE would move Butler for I can't imagine two role players would do it.
     
  5. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    How is 16 months apart in age about 9 months?
     
  6. ManicCompression

    ManicCompression lurker

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    My bad - mixed up their months in my head.
     
  7. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Winslow has a much higher floor, and he's sort of a taller/longer Marcus Smart type (although I think Smart has a broader game). But much like with Marcus, what you see is what you get. Winslow has never been much of a shooter. Ever.

    Chriss has gone from having high bust potential to likely being just a bust (although finally escaping the Phoenix Nursery School organization and landing on a stable vet team might help). But he has shown shooting ability in the past and he does have the combination of length and athleticism necessary to be a good defender. So he has a much higher ceiling than Winslow, though I will stipulate that he's unlikely to ever reach it.
     
  8. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    I know its good sport to take shots at the 76ers around here (I'm as guilty as the next guy).
    But Covington is an RPM darling, a prototypical 3 and D player and not terribly expensive, signed for 4 yrs.

    Saric is very cheap, signed for 2yrs then RFA. Dario can shoot the 3, play the 5 in a modern-day small ball line-up. He plays hard/aggressive and impressed me all last season/playoffs.

    Nighthob, why so critical of Covington and Saric?

    These two are very switchable defensively. If the Wolves could land them + a first rounder at this stage that wouldn't be terrible.
     
  9. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    It might be less bad for the Wolves because they are arguably a playoff team. I can't imagine them being better without Butler though. It's sorta kinda like the Kyrie deal. Trading a mix of established players and a pick to a team that isn't tanking.
     
  10. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    An unmotivated Butler on a 1yr deal, that's not showing up and hates some of his teammates isn't worth a lot and won't help the Wolves make the playoffs

    I'd much rather have Saric+Covington+future 1st rounder (that could be dealt for talent).
     
    #160 benhogan, Sep 28, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  11. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    NBA trades for superstars are almost always cents on the dollar. Cousins, Iverson, Garnett, Barkley...none of them got anything more than Saric+Covington+future 1st rounder.(s) That actually kind of seems like a deal that helps both today and tomorrow for Minnesota.
     
  12. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Heard yesterday, from someone close to Dion Waiters, that he may be on the move to the Wolves as part of a Butler deal.

    Don't blame the Heat, I'd rather move Dion (3yrs ~ $40MM) then JRich (4yrs ~ 40MM).
     
  13. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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  14. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

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  15. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    You are probably right. Though really, if Minnesota turns it down and then comes back in 2 weeks and says they will do it, Miami would say no at that point?
     
  16. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Dion Waiters is terrible. Of course the Heat are pushing for him to be included. He has only played 76 games over the past two years, is likely to miss a decent chunk of time due to his ankle surgery, and he has 3 years at 12 million per left on his deal.
     
  17. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

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    i would think not
     
  18. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

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    I actually think waiters is a good player when healthy, and if he was able to deliver his 2016-2017 averages over the course of the season, he would be a value at 12. But agreed, his health has been a concern, and even when healthy looked like he took a step back last season.
     
  19. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Well, the step back is his favorite move . . . .


    Please tip the staff.
     
  20. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Goddamn amazing
     
  21. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I love this board sometimes.
     
  22. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I thought calling for the ball was his favorite move.
     
  23. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    Apparently the Wolves and Heat (and in some permutations, a third team) we’re close to a trade this weekend, but it fell apart for now, per Woj. They went as far as trading medical.

    Apparently could get revived but would take a “resetting process,” whatever that means.

    Edit: forgot the link: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24920173/timberwolves-trade-jimmy-butler-heat-falls-apart
     
    #173 HowBoutDemSox, Oct 7, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  24. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I mean, are we all hung over from the Sox win? How has this not been posted?

     
  25. PC Drunken Friar

    PC Drunken Friar Member SoSH Member

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    It's being discussed in the general NBA news thread. The title of this thread won't get it eyeballs.
    I always assume it's about Malcolm.
     
  26. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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  27. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    My belief in Butler as a true 'alpha' went up after that article.

    Of course, so did my concern level that he's a cancer.

    He is a guy the Celts would have taken a chance on three years ago---similar to Isaiah at the time they got him. But now, it's hard to see them taking the shot given what it would cost and who it would displace. But I am fascinated where he goes and hope it is not Philly.
     
  28. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    I'm not comparing the two, talent-wise. But I wonder if this is how Jordan would have been in a situation without Phil and Scottie. He's a leader if he's on a championship team, but an asshole on a mediocre team.
     
  29. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I'm pretty sure Thibs got an erection from Butler's display of dominance in that scrimmage.
     
  30. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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  31. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Being in the twin cities, I am loving this drama. But man, Butler sure sounds like a giant dick
     
  32. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Star player is tired of shitty culture, so takes all the scrubs and beats starters, with some trash talk. And he’s a dick? That’s the guy I want on my team.
     
  33. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Here here!! Thibs cancelled practice and Butler called a players-only meeting to tell his teammates that he's here to compete with them. This is the very definition of leadership for a group that is otherwise rudderless.
     
  34. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know, a star player no-showing a bunch of practices and then randomly showing up, acting like a crazy person in some sort of bizarre publicity stunt to get himself traded doesn't really scream leadership material to me.
     
  35. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    There were no fines assessed to Butler leading me to believe his absence was excused either due to the wrist injury or more likely, Thibs told him to stay away with a deal to Miami so close. I don't believe for one second that Butler simply blew off the team during this time.
     
  36. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Well if you believe that; it certainly supports your argument.
     
  37. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Leadership would be relaying your desire to be traded to the FO, then showing up and practicing and telling your team you're there to battle with them.

    Leadership is not demanding a trade, showing up late, screaming at your coach (even if that coach is Thibs), calling out your teammates, then calling a meeting saying you're in charge.
     
  38. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    The bolded is precisely what Butler DID do.
     
  39. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Latest scuttlebutt this morning was that a Butler to Miami deal was done with teams going so far as to exchange medicals prior to Thibs calling Riley back and asking for another pick. Allegedly Riles called Thibs a mutha-f'er and slammed down the phone.
     
  40. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    1,114
    I have no idea why Butler is acting this way. His antics won't increase his trade value and in fact make it more likely that he stays in Minnesota.

    And if he stays, how long will it be before Towns and Wiggins start demanding trades? Is that his objective? Or is he trying to get Thibs fired? That may happen anyway.
     
  41. Caspir

    Caspir Member SoSH Member

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    I don't think anyone is scared that Andrew Wiggins bum ass will demand a trade. He'd already be gone if anyone wanted him. KAT just signed a max extension and isn't going anywhere. You have no idea why a hyper competitive alpha is acting like.... a hyper competitive alpha on a team that has been accused of lacking a true leader?
     
  42. Minneapolis Millers

    Minneapolis Millers Member SoSH Member

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    Butler's clearly frustrated and angry. What's less clear is why. The Wolves offered him a max extension which, like Kyrie, he turned down because he can get more if he waits. But then Towns signed his super max deal for substantially more money. Did that upset Butler? Maybe, but that's not the team's fault. Butler was obviously frustrated at times with the team's play last season, especially on defense. Is he angry or disenchanted with certain teammates (like Wiggins)? With Thibs as a coach? Does he think he's being misused on the court? The Wolves are anything but creative on offense, and they basically let Butler do what he wants, especially in crunch time (to KAT's detriment, imo). He's upset with Scott Layden - why? Because he hasn't yet been traded? But it was reportedly Thibs who has sabotaged those efforts. And his initial list of teams he wanted to be traded to? Not exactly the top teams in the league. So is that just his desire to be a big fish in a bigger pond, winning be damned?

    From my vantage point, he's acting like a prima donna, which certainly doesn't help his current team. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd do everything I could to keep Butler and continue to build around him and Towns, and either demote Thibs (bring in a real GM) or let him go. I think Thibs is more to blame for the overall condition/culture of the Wolves than Butler, and Butler's a far better player than Thibs is a coach/GM.
     
  43. Tony C

    Tony C Dope Dope

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    Add to that...immediately going on ESPN and bragging about it. Because he competes...his teammates (implicitly) don't.

    With the caveat that none of us were there so can't speak categorically, but sure does seems like the type of "I AM A LEADER" King Kong chest banging that does very little to help a team.
     
  44. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    I hope Butler stays and continues to be a complete dick to KAT - who then demands a trade. Celtics send Brown + Rozier + picks for KAT
     
  45. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    If he's a good leader, then the team has enough talent that they should be competitive in the West. Lets see if he can actually lead them there rather than just practice hard for an hour.
     
  46. jimv

    jimv Member SoSH Member

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    Comparisons are tough because MJ existed pre-social media, but let's not forget it was his fourth year before the Bulls even made the conference semis. I'm sure he was an asshole behind closed doors but he knew to keep it under wraps - it might have hurt shoe sales
     
  47. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    There is also a debate about whether Jordan's method of leadership was actually effective. You can also argue that Jordan's leadership was effective because he was as talented as he was, as opposed to Butler, who while an All-Star, is arguably not even the most talented player on his own team.

    It should also be noted that this Butler explosion was likely done imo, as a publicity stunt to somehow assist him in being traded, so I don't think he really cares about leadership that much at all.
     
  48. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    This timeline might help you with your question.

    It's no secret Butler wants to be paid a max contract. While the 4/$110M was the highest extension that the Wolves could offer, it wasn't the highest contract the Wolves could offer. According to a couple of articles I read - the best being this one: https://zonecoverage.com/2018/timberwolves/the-two-paths-of-jimmy-butlers-next-maximum-contract/ - if the Wolves had cleared cap space, they could have offered 4/$145M. Of course, as the article points, out, to do that, the Wolves would have had to make some fundamental roster moves. When the Wolves didn't do that, it was clear they weren't going to give him the max available now.

    So Butler meets with Thibs on (or about) September 19 and Butler likely points out, "Well if you're not willing to clear space to give me max money now, there's no way the team is going to give me max money next year, right"? If the Wolves do give Butler max money, from 2019-20 to 2022-23, Butler, Towns, and Wiggins will be making (approximately) 85.3% / 87.6% / 89.8% / 91.9% of the projected salary cap.

    So when Butler looks at the salary cap, the amount of $ Wiggins and Towns are making, the amount of luxury tax that Taylor would have to pay to have any kind of contending team at all, he (probably correctly) decides that MIN is not the place for him.

    And now MIN is screwing him over because Thibs doesn't care if he plays out his contract but Glen Taylor doesn't want to lose him for nothing.

    So finally, Butler comes into camp, kicks everyone's ass, and basically says, "Go ahead and see what happens when Wiggins and Towns are the two best players on your team."

    The stuff with Towns and Wiggins makes great copy but I think when people dig into it, they are finding out that it's mostly about money. And the ancillary parts of money, like respect and what-not. Problem for Butler is that he doesn't have much leverage at this point. Methinks that what happened on Wednesday was an attempt to create leverage to make MIN do something.
     
  49. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not sure I would have used the same words as you, but I agree with your opinion.

    This Ringer article points out that Butler does not have much leverage here. According to CBA, if he misses more than 30 days, he can forfeit a season, meaning that he would not be able to opt-out next season for his massive payday. Yes, the Spurs could have tried to do this to Kawhi but did not - but I doubt Taylor or Thibs or Layden would be nearly as "understanding."

    At this point, if Thibs is really sabotaging the trade efforts, Butler basically has two options: play and show people how good he is or come up with a season-long nagging injury. I'm sure when all things are taken into account, Butler really wishes that MIN would just go ahead and trade him.

    This has been super strange all around.
     
  50. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    That Wiggins deal has turned into a franchise killer for the T'wolves. He's one of those guys that I was completely wrong about.

    In college he was such a hard working defender with such great physicals (length, speed, explosivenes, etc.) that I figured that even if his offensive game never developed properly that he'd still be really valuable as a defensive stopper on the wing.

    Rocco, by contrast, had him pegged as the next Rudy Gay. He's like a crack whore's DeRozan, terrible defense with inefficient scoring. I guess that he's young enough that he could turn it around, but they really should have moved him for picks before having to commit to that extension.
     

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