The Brooklyn Renaissance

Jer

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Jul 17, 2005
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Scrabble is fun...
 
DISADVANTAGED
DISILLUSIONED
DISORIENTATED
INCAPACITATED
KNUCKLEHEADED
OVERESTIMATED
OVERIDEALIZED
UNCOORDINATED
UNDERPREPARED
 
Kidd clearly had a number of appropriate 13-letter choices. I stand corrected.
 
Maybe the Nets should check-in with Delonte West... then motherf@#king would be be appropriate too.
 

Pumpsie

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jon abbey said:
The 'Fake Lawrence Frank' blog is pretty amusing:
 
http://lawrencefrank.blogspot.com
Agreed.  It's pretty clever to create a blog where you get to post the "notes" that Frank is supposedly sending Kidd now.  Here's one of my favorites that came right after the Knick fiasco:

"If anyone asks, I'll take the blame for Shumpert. Yesterday in my notes I said to take it easy on him IF you were up by a lot late in the game, but that might have been too complex of a note for a rookie coach like yourself. From now on, just defend every professional basketball player as well as you can at all times."
 

Blacken

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When he's playing one-handed, that makes some sense. Not sure it'll stick when he's healthy.
 

Devizier

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Don't look now, but the Nets have won three in a row.
 
Their draft pick may be worth less than Atlanta's at season's end.
 

nattysez

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And another.  Is this just the difference between Deron Williams and no Deron Williams? 
 

Blacken

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Probably? They have enough perimeter talent that you can't double him without risk--Pierce's jumper might be closer to a set these days, but he can still hit a shot--and that lets him go to work. When he has that advantage, he can put in a lot of buckets.

It won't save them from the Pacers or the Heat, but then, only a reanimated KG and putting Paul on some real good drugs will make that even a remote possibility.
 

knucklecup

hi, I'm a cuckold
Jun 26, 2006
4,235
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It's a combination of bad health and an uneducated fan base that doesn't look at the entire picture that made a mountain out of a molehill in this situation.

If you were buying into the "Brooklyn Trainwreck," you don't understand how the game of basketball works.
 

Devizier

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It's too bad that they're looking better lately, because I didn't want this team to turn around until Jason Kidd got fired.
 
On the other hand, an extended reign of suck from a Jason Kidd-coached team would be pretty nice given their draft pick obligations.
 

Tony C

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Devizier said:
It's too bad that they're looking better lately, because I didn't want this team to turn around until Jason Kidd got fired.
 
On the other hand, an extended reign of suck from a Jason Kidd-coached team would be pretty nice given their draft pick obligations.
 
My feeling as well. I figured they'd turn things around sooner or later (to some degree), but was hoping Kidd would get his class-less ass fired before then. Alas not, but also agree they won't be the true contender many predicted pre-season.
 

knucklecup

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Jun 26, 2006
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Whoa.

Either Tanguay is trolling me this morning or he's the first to report that Lopez is done for the year.

That'd be a real tough break for NJ.
 

cromulence

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He's still the only one reporting it...interesting. The Nets are the only thing keeping me sane as a Knicks fan (that and the ability to check out). If Brooklyn were having a good year right now....ugh.
 

knucklecup

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Jun 26, 2006
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Sam Amick now reporting it as well.
 
Tough break for Brooklyn.  If only there was a way to get Pierce and Garnett back in Green for a playoff push.
 

Brickowski

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Sam Amick now reporting it as well.
And so is a Nets' fansite. My guess is that Tanguay got the scoop from Donny Marshall. I wonder if Morey knew this when he shut down the auction for Asik.
 

knucklecup

hi, I'm a cuckold
Jun 26, 2006
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The Hawks can swap first round picks with the Nets this year as well.
 
The Nets may have made a franchise crippling move...
 
Edit: though I will say, Blatche is a good player who will step in fine.  They need to win the division and get healthy come playoff time.  I still believe they can go to the Eastern Conference finals, but given what they gave up, it's going to be hard to justify this trade 2-3 years from now.
 

Stu Nahan

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cromulence said:
He's still the only one reporting it...interesting. The Nets are the only thing keeping me sane as a Knicks fan (that and the ability to check out). If Brooklyn were having a good year right now....ugh.
Yikes. This year really could not have gone worse for them so far.
 

radsoxfan

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knucklecup said:
The Hawks can swap first round picks with the Nets this year as well.
 
The Nets may have made a franchise crippling move...
 
Edit: though I will say, Blatche is a good player who will step in fine.  They need to win the division and get healthy come playoff time.  I still believe they can go to the Eastern Conference finals, but given what they gave up, it's going to be hard to justify this trade 2-3 years from now.
 
Well its going to be hard for them to "get healthy" if Lopez is out for the season.
 
The Nets are 9-17 and lost their best player for the year.  Even if Blatche can produce 75% of what Lopez gave them (I'm skeptical), there is still a chain reaction because some scrub is going to step into Blatche's role. 
 
Unless Pierce and Garnett step into a time machine, that team isn't sniffing the Eastern Conference finals. They're looking at a first round playoff exit, unless they completely fall apart and somehow miss the playoffs.  They're a Deron Williams injury away from that second scenario happening. 
 

moly99

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Stu Nahan said:
Yikes. This year really could not have gone worse for them so far.
 
Here's the thing, though. If Lopez and Deron stay healthy and they make the #3 seed and win one playoff series before being waxed by the Pacers or Heat Billy King's trades are still an insanely awful series of moves. The Nets don't own their own pick for the next 6 years and have virtually no young players to build around for the future.
 
So while I'm sorry for Nets fans that their season has gone to hell, they were staring into the abyss for the next half decade no matter how this season turned out.
 
Meanwhile Billy King is trying to save the season by trading Paul Pierce, Miles Plumlee and the Nets' 2019 pick to the Kings for Rudy Gay.
 

86spike

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Damn.

I am officially now concerned that Brook Lopez will never have a fully healthy right foot. His career might be over. Shit.

As for this season, barring any further injuries, I still see Brooklyn making the playoffs. Hell, 41 wins could easily mean you win the Atlantic.

Blatche will now start at the 5 and KG will play more 5. This opens more playing time for Teletovic (who is finally flashing the skills he displayed in Europe) and Kirklenko when he gets back.

Short term, the team can still compete. Long term, I think Lopez will never be the same (or even able to play at all - Yao Ming, anyone?) which is a nightmare for the payroll and roster construction.

Fuck.
 

bowiac

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Is there anything in particular about this injury that makes it more likely that this is a career altering injury, or just more of a "repeated leg injuries to a big man" thing?
 

radsoxfan

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bowiac said:
Is there anything in particular about this injury that makes it more likely that this is a career altering injury, or just more of a "repeated leg injuries to a big man" thing?
 
It's the same bone he already has broken once and already has had surgery on.  
 
That alone doesn't make it impossible to come back from. However, that fact probably makes it more likely it's not a fluke injury, but rather a sign his 5th metatarsal can't take the rigors of NBA basketball. I think it's fair to consider his health a big risk going forward.
 
Edit: after looking it up, looks like this is the third time he's broken his 5th metatarsal. He also has already had two surgeries on that bone, including one this offseason to replace a bent screw.  His anatomy, the way he runs, and his size, must just lead to a ton of stress on that bone for whatever reason. Not good.....
 

JohnnyTheBone

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Rad, just want to post a quick "thank you" for all you bring to the board.  Your medical expertise is consistently accurate and enlightening, which really adds gravitas to these threads.  I appreciate the knowledge, and it's a huge asset to have around here.
 

nighthob

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86spike said:
As for this season, barring any further injuries, I still see Brooklyn making the playoffs. Hell, 41 wins could easily mean you win the Atlantic.
 
If they get to 41 wins they're going to lap the field in this terrible division. Hopefully the NBA does away with them next year.
 

moly99

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Just out of curiosity, what is the argument in favor of keeping the divisional playoff seeding?
 
In the NFL where teams play 38% of their games against division opponents it makes some sense to me, but in the NBA it's only 22% so the rivalry factor isn't nearly as strong. The rivalry is what makes it a good idea for the NFL, IMO. Even in the awful NFC East the Redskins fans can get excited about the chance to knock the Cowboys out of playoff contention.
 

radsoxfan

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JohnnyTheBone said:
Rad, just want to post a quick "thank you" for all you bring to the board.  Your medical expertise is consistently accurate and enlightening, which really adds gravitas to these threads.  I appreciate the knowledge, and it's a huge asset to have around here.
 
Thanks JTB, happy to pitch in when I can.
 

jon abbey

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moly99 said:
Just out of curiosity, what is the argument in favor of keeping the divisional playoff seeding?
 
 
I think they will dump it after this year, or maybe even mid-season. I know they've been talking about it already. It's the conference lopsidedness that's the real issue, though.
 

radsoxfan

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jon abbey said:
 
I think they will dump it after this year, or maybe even mid-season. I know they've been talking about it already. It's the conference lopsidedness that's the real issue, though.
 
Seems crazy to dump it mid-season.  I would be shocked if they did that. 
 
I agree the conference lopsidedness is a bigger problem this particular year, but not sure I have heard a good solution to fix it. Just hope it works itself out eventually. 
 

jon abbey

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radsoxfan said:
 
I agree the conference lopsidedness is a bigger problem, but not sure I have heard a good solution to fix it. Just hope it works itself out eventually. 
 
Keep the schedules the same, then just take the top 16 teams by record and seed them 1-16. The tougher conference still has the tougher schedule, but at least it's closer to fair. 
 

radsoxfan

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jon abbey said:
 
Keep the schedules the same, then just take the top 16 teams by record and seed them 1-16. The tougher conference still has the tougher schedule, but at least it's closer to fair. 
 
A reasonable idea, though it completely changes the dynamics of the playoffs. Lakers/Celtics in round 1?  Maybe it would just take some getting used to, but feels weird at first thought.  Not to mention the possibility for a ridiculous amount of playoff travel as you could have East/West match ups in each round.
 
I don't think the current set-up is really that big of a deal.  It looks worse this season with so few good Eastern conference teams for sure, but so many teams make the playoffs in the NBA it's hard for me to feel bad for the 9th place Western Conference team that is the #13 overall team in the league.  They really aren't likely to be much of a title contender. 
 

lexrageorge

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There's no chance the NBA changes its playoff format mid-season.  
 
With 16 teams going to the playoffs, it's hard to cry injustice at any team that doesn't make it in.  
 

nighthob

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radsoxfan said:
 
A reasonable idea, though it completely changes the dynamics of the playoffs. Lakers/Celtics in round 1?  Maybe it would just take some getting used to, but feels weird at first thought.  Not to mention the possibility for a ridiculous amount of playoff travel as you could have East/West match ups in each round.
 
I don't think the current set-up is really that big of a deal.  It looks worse this season with so few good Eastern conference teams for sure, but so many teams make the playoffs in the NBA it's hard for me to feel bad for the 9th place Western Conference team that is the #13 overall team in the league.  They really aren't likely to be much of a title contender. 
 
If they dump the divisions, which they should, it would avoid the absurdity of a 35 win team getting a number four seed and punishing the three best teams in the conference who could, in theory, end up with tougher opening round matchups than the fourth best team.
 

jon abbey

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radsoxfan said:
 
I don't think the current set-up is really that big of a deal.  It looks worse this season with so few good Eastern conference teams for sure, but so many teams make the playoffs in the NBA it's hard for me to feel bad for the 9th place Western Conference team that is the #13 overall team in the league.  They really aren't likely to be much of a title contender. 
 
By this logic, we might as well just jump to the Conference Finals right now, since barring injuries we're almost certainly looking at IND/MIA and OKC/SAS. 
 

radsoxfan

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jon abbey said:
 
By this logic, we might as well just jump to the Conference Finals right now, since barring injuries we're almost certainly looking at IND/MIA and OKC/SAS. 
 
You're taking a few extra logical leaps to come to that conclusion. I said the 9th best team in a conference missing the playoffs isn't that big of a deal in my mind.  I said nothing about the 3rd best team.
 
Any playoff selection process in any sport is going to attempt to balance fairness with the fact that teams are broken up into leagues, conferences, and divisions, for both scheduling and rivalry purposes.  
 
It's not very realistic for every team to play the exact same schedule, so "complete fairness" is already not possible.  The goal is keep some "reasonable fairness", which is admittedly a subjective assessment, that people can disagree on.  Eliminating the divisions in the NBA would be fine with me, to avoid the occasional season when the seeds get really fouled up compared to a team's accomplishments.
 
But I don't feel the need to have complete fairness in the NBA, or even anything that borders on complete fairness.  None of the other sports have it, and I don't find it particularly important, especially when a huge chunk of the teams in the league are making the playoffs.  If you want to avoid missing out on the playoffs, try not being a below average team in your own conference.  That's not a very high bar.
 

jon abbey

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I hate it in every sport, I wish there were no divisions. Two leagues in baseball, two conferences in the NFL and the NBA, the existence of divisions is maybe my least favorite thing in each of those sports. I want the best teams to make the playoffs; if 16 teams make the playoffs, ideally it should be be the best 16, not the best 10-11 and then 4-5 shitty ones (as the NBA is currently shaping up, admittedly in an extreme year). 2008 was another good example, though, GS missed the playoffs despite having the 12th best record in the league (with the harder Western schedule):

http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/year/2008
 
At least that year there were three solid teams in the East, this year it looks like there will be two bad teams in the second round of the playoffs. I get that scheduling and travel makes that a little difficult in MLB and the NFL, but the NBA already basically has everyone in the conference playing the same schedule, there's really no need for divisions and that's just a first step. 
 

radsoxfan

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I guess we have different definitions of "reasonable fairness" then.
 
If only 4 teams made the playoffs, and it had to be 2 from each conference, I would completely agree with you. Too great of a chance the 4 best teams in the NBA could all be in the same conference, and a really good team or two gets screwed.  
 
But at some point for me, when you stretch it from 4 to 16 teams making the playoffs, it reaches a crossover point that I don't find the inequity that big of a deal. Worst case scenario, we're arguing about middle of the pack teams (i.e. in the middle third of the NBA) not having an optimally equitable playoff selection.  I'm OK with keeping conferences, their rivalries, and their relatively easier travel, to sacrifice what I consider a small degree of fairness for what are essentially average-ish teams.  
 
I suppose the bigger deal might be top teams in a stacked conference have a tougher road in the playoffs (a 1/8 matchup might turn out to be a #1 overall seed playing the #12 overall team in the first round, instead of the #16 overall team), but I don't really have a problem with conferences battling it out on their own, and letting the winners face each other in the finals.
 
Some years, like this one, will look worse than others, but I just don't find it a big deal. I guess my pet peeves in sports don't align with yours (I've got plenty of others though). As I said, I agree getting rid of the divisions for simplicity sake makes sense.
 

jon abbey

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That's how I feel when people complain about a team just missing the NCAAs but it pisses me off way more in the NBA. First of all, the inequity of the schedules between the conferences already makes things lopsided (Western teams play about 2/3 of their games against other Western teams), so when a team perseveres through that to still have the 12th best record in the league and still misses the playoffs, I find it exceedingly unfair. I could live with either the lopsided schedule/take the top 16 teams regardless of conference or a balanced schedule/take the top 8 teams from each conference, but both just seems too unfair for my tastes. 
 
The worst part is that the first two rounds of the Eastern playoffs this year are going to be unwatchable while a couple of teams from the GS/DEN/MIN/DAL/PHO pool are going to be home watching. 
 

radsoxfan

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jon abbey said:
 I could live with either the lopsided schedule/take the top 16 teams regardless of conference or a balanced schedule/take the top 8 teams from each conference, but both just seems too unfair for my tastes. 
 
 
Why would a balanced schedule/take the top 8 teams from each conference make you feel better?  The same 8 teams in the East would end up making it, they would just have even more putrid looking records this year.
 

JakeRae

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jon abbey said:
 
By this logic, we might as well just jump to the Conference Finals right now, since barring injuries we're almost certainly looking at IND/MIA and OKC/SAS. 
 
Portland feels disrespected.
 

jon abbey

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radsoxfan said:
 
Why would a balanced schedule/take the top 8 teams from each conference make you feel better?  The same 8 teams in the East would end up making it, they would just have even more putrid looking records this year.
 
Yeah, good point. 
 

jon abbey

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JakeRae said:
 
Portland feels disrespected.
 
One of my best buds is a loony Blazers fan, and he completely agrees with my statement, FWIW. 
 

knucklecup

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Jun 26, 2006
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With whole world watching, Brooklyn played terribly today.

My opinion hasn't changed but viewing Twitter, Joe Public is really getting on them.

Will Kidd make it out alive?
 

OCST

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knucklecup said:
With whole world watching, Brooklyn played terribly today.

My opinion hasn't changed but viewing Twitter, Joe Public is really getting on them.

Will Kidd make it out alive?
he won't make the end of January.
 

OCST

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It's become clear that Kidd has no clue of what to do when his team doesn't respond the way he wants them to.  Better basketball minds than mine have pointed out how bad the roster construction is, and losing Lopez sucks, but even with that, they're underperforming, and he has no idea how to change the team culture.
 
Even if you grant* that, as one of the top point guards of his generation, Kidd knows the game, he appears not have too many tools in the coach's toolbox.
 
*I don't want to grant that, because I think he's a knob.