The Best Defense is a Good Offense - Pats 2016 Defense Discussion

[BigSoxFan]

Figured we need a separate thread for all whinings about the defense (and feel free to delete if I missed one).

Going into this year, I really was drinking the koolaid. Didn't like the Jones trade but, whatever, Sheard was better last year, Long will re-vitalize his career, and Nink will have his Nink moments. Or not. Sheard, Nink, and Long all look like crap. Flowers had a nice game but I doubt he becomes a weekly difference maker. Pass rush is the most important skill set on defense in 2016 and we suck at it.

But that's ok, we can still generate periodic pressure by blitzing our 2 highly-skilled LBs, Hightower and Collins. Or not. Now we're down to 1 impact LB and a collection of question marks.

Not ideal but this can be overcome because our secondary looked really good last year. Ryan was arguably every bit the player that Butler was last year, Jones will provide some quality coverage in the slot along with his elite special teams skills, and Coleman will continue to hold his own. Or not.

Basically, I feel like all three levels of the defense are performing well below our pre season expectations for them and I don't see that improving any time soon. This is simply a defense that can't make plays. It's not the X's and the O's, it's Jimmies and the Joes. And our guys suck. On the bright side, I am no longer worried about this offseason and having the money available to sign everyone.

So, what can we do at this point? I feel like there's not much other than to hope for some incremental improvement and a shit ton of luck. Sad!

 

[j44thor]

I put it in the game thread but probably better here. I think you need to consider moving McCourty back to CB for this season. The RCB spot has been a revolving door of suck leaving McCourty the role of designated tackler 25yds downfield. I'm not sure how much value your highly paid FS is providing when all he does is stop long gains from becoming longer.

Harmon should be able to take over the FS role and you also invested a good amount of draft capital into Richards so would hope he contribute on the backend as well.

 

[Toe Nash]

I agree in theory but don't think we have any idea if McCourty would still be any good at CB. He hasn't played it in forever and isn't asked to play man coverage at his current position. I do wonder if they should be more aggressive with him at the risk of giving up some more big plays but that has never really been their M.O.

CBs are weird and inconsistent; it seems possible they find someone by the end of the year who can do the job. It could also be that Ryan / Coleman had a bad game / had bad matchups. I thought Rowe was OK for what it's worth and it's still possible that Jones could show something by the end of the year.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The defense isn't any good and isn't going to get better and they ain't winning shit with it. They can't defend the pass, they can't rush the passer, and sometimes they can't stop the run. They're slow and small and don't do anything right.

Other than that things are great.

Ryan can't play. Coleman can't play. McClellin can't play. I'm pretty sure Roberts is going to be completely overmatched at OLB now that he's the starter. McCourty is one of the good things on the D at S, you don't take him out of that spot to play a role he was removed from a few years ago. Hightower is a beast but he's the only one.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

Baffling decisions by the coaching staff...neither man to man nor zone worked well, but zone was much better except for a couple of egregious plays (e.g. end of the first half for one). Benching Sheard for Long is ridiculous...Ninkovich seems to be basically useless, and Ryan couldn't cover anyone in man to man.
Even with all that they could / should have won if it wasn't for the turnovers, due to the greatness of the tight ends and skill positions.

 

[jsinger121]

 

[tims4wins]

I still don't understand the McClellin signing

 

[j44thor]

I still don't understand the McClellin signing

Or replacing Jones with Long.

The silver lining is that they don't play another competent offense until week 17.
We will all be able to pretend they have fixed the D by then until they run into a pit or Oak in the playoffs.

 

[dcmissle]

The defense isn't any good and isn't going to get better and they ain't winning shit with it. They can't defend the pass, they can't rush the passer, and sometimes they can't stop the run. They're slow and small and don't do anything right.

Other than that things are great.

Ryan can't play. Coleman can't play. McClellin can't play. I'm pretty sure Roberts is going to be completely overmatched at OLB now that he's the starter. McCourty is one of the good things on the D at S, you don't take him out of that spot to play a role he was removed from a few years ago. Hightower is a beast but he's the only one.

Jury's still out on your first paragraph, and we may not know until the playoffs. Considering the next 7 opponents, if the defense continues to struggle like this, we're fucked. If material improvement shows, there will be a flood of e-mails here condemning the "Nancies", but, again, none of the seven opponents are juggernauts on offense, so the condemnations may be premature football spiking.

While we are in the venting mode, our last series reminded me of 4th and two at Indianapolis -- we're doing these things because we have no hope of stopping them, and we know it. So you end up straining other elements of the team. And it's effing infuriating.

Last night was a capstone on a terrible week.

 

[Van Everyman]

Yes but you predicted it, right? ;-)

I think another piece that is underrated is the loss of Easley, who was turning into a beast last year before he hit IR. That's three big pieces of talent that have left this defense for one reason or another. You could argue that Butler, McCourty and Hightower are the only elite talents on the defense right now.

That said, the rest of the defense on this team isn't some group of flotsam. Nink is likely playing his way back into shape after his injury. Sheard is a better player than he's played this year. Brown has ability but has had to bear a lot of the DT load himself. And Flowers may be blooming.

Elsewhere, Ryan is inconsistent but better than he's shown – probably not helped by the poor pass rush. I'm not sure why Rowe was inactive but he's shown flashes.

I think the LB crew is going to be where most of the improvement has to come, one reason you've seen so much activity on that front. Roberts is not an every down player because of his size but Van Noy and Mingo have potential. And even if he fell on his face on that one run, McClellan on the PAT showed why they got him.

This game was probably inevitable in a lot of ways post-Collins, post-bye and facing an elite, if not dominant, team. They need to improve these next few weeks but the good news is that there aren't many good offenses at all in this league right now.

 

[Shelterdog]

I still don't understand the McClellin signing

What don't you understand about it? The idea is fine--the team could use another linebacker particularly since you weren't going to resign Collins and Hightower--and he's a physically talented guy who has shown some versatality.

The problem is that he sucks. Long is the same issue--reasonable fit, reasonable salary, just not very good at football at this point.

 

[Saints Rest]

(Cross posting from the goat thread as it fits better here)
A hallmark of BB teams has been setting the edge; this team hasn't been good in that regard this season, and last night they were atrocious.

Setting the edge, or playing zone, for that matter, are classic Pat tactics that rely on everyone buying into the "do your job" mentality. Last night was a MESS. It does make me wonder if BB saw the alleged Collins' freelancing as a potential bad apple poisoning the whole bunch thing. It certainly loooked like it last night.

The good news is that that can be coached up into improvement. This is the same secondary that looked pretty good for much of last year, but they have sucked this year. Harmon and DMC have been close to invisible in terms of INTs.

 

[tims4wins]

What don't you understand about it? The idea is fine--the team could use another linebacker particularly since you weren't going to resign Collins and Hightower--and he's a physically talented guy who has shown some versatality.

The problem is that he sucks. Long is the same issue--reasonable fit, reasonable salary, just not very good at football at this point.

Why was it a 3 year, $12M contract? What had he done to deserve that type of deal? The film was out there on him. If he sucks then why give him that money.

 

[IdiotKicker]

Why was it a 3 year, $12M contract? What had he done to deserve that type of deal? The film was out there on him. If he sucks then why give him that money.

I believe it was 3 years, 8.95M. Still not great, but not 12M. Second, only 3.5M is guaranteed. Third, it's back-loaded, so they're only going to end up paying him like 2M this year. Likely a cap casualty in the offseason with around 1.6M in dead money. Not ideal, but this is not the biggest issue.

http://overthecap.com/player/shea-mcclellin/151/

 

[tims4wins]

I believe it was 3 years, 8.95M. Still not great, but not 12M. Second, only 3.5M is guaranteed. Third, it's back-loaded, so they're only going to end up paying him like 2M this year. Likely a cap casualty in the offseason with around 1.6M in dead money. Not ideal, but this is not the biggest issue.

http://overthecap.com/player/shea-mcclellin/151/

Ah thanks.

They did end up having to trade for Mingo and Van Noy, so it's not a total non-issue. But the guy hasn't contributed a lick on D unless I have missed it

 

[Super Nomario]

Jury's still out on your first paragraph, and we may not know until the playoffs. Considering the next 7 opponents, if the defense continues to struggle like this, we're fucked. If material improvement shows, there will be a flood of e-mails here condemning the "Nancies", but, again, none of the seven opponents are juggernauts on offense, so the condemnations may be premature football spiking.

While we are in the venting mode, our last series reminded me of 4th and two at Indianapolis -- we're doing these things because we have no hope of stopping them, and we know it. So you end up straining other elements of the team. And it's effing infuriating.

I agree with all of this. They will play the 1-8 49ers next week, the D will probably look terrible on a couple drives, but they will only give up 18 points or something and we won't know if that means anything at all.

I think another piece that is underrated is the loss of Easley, who was turning into a beast last year before he hit IR. That's three big pieces of talent that have left this defense for one reason or another. You could argue that Butler, McCourty and Hightower are the only elite talents on the defense right now.

Is there a counter argument that anyone else on the defense is an elite talent? I'm trying to think who else could even be considered above average. The fourth-best player on the D is probably Chung or Malcom Brown.

You're right re: Easley. Another way to look at it is that they used their top picks in 2012 (Jones), 2013 (Collins), and 2014 (Easley) on defense and none of those guys is on the team right now.

That said, the rest of the defense on this team isn't some group of flotsam. Nink is likely playing his way back into shape after his injury. Sheard is a better player than he's played this year. Brown has ability but has had to bear a lot of the DT load himself. And Flowers may be blooming.

You start by saying "the talent isn't bad" but then the first example is a 32-year-old Rob Ninkovich ...

 

[Shelterdog]

Ah thanks.

They did end up having to trade for Mingo and Van Noy, so it's not a total non-issue. But the guy hasn't contributed a lick on D unless I have missed it

It was a reasonable move at the time that just hasn't worked out-- kind of like a lot of the moves on defense this year.

 

[tims4wins]

It was a reasonable move at the time that just hasn't worked out-- kind of like a lot of the moves on defense this year.

Maybe it is semantics but I would argue that it wasn't particularly reasonable since it was a 3 year deal and the guy simply hasn't done jack in the NFL. In BB I trust and all that but I think a lot of folks were questioning the signing when it happened. But I will look to the archives, I may be wrong.

Edit: seems like a mixed reaction in the signing thread. Folks were hopeful since he was a high pick and in BB we trust

 

[Super Nomario]

Maybe it is semantics but I would argue that it wasn't particularly reasonable since it was a 3 year deal and the guy simply hasn't done jack in the NFL. In BB I trust and all that but I think a lot of folks were questioning the signing when it happened. But I will look to the archives, I may be wrong.

Edit: seems like a mixed reaction in the signing thread. Folks were hopeful since he was a high pick and in BB we trust

Unlike in baseball, longer deals are favorable for the team in the NFL. If McClellin works out, having him three years at a modest rate is nice. So far, he looks crappy, but as @IdiotKicker noted, they aren't stuck with the deal.

That said, I didn't and don't get the McClellin signing. I assumed they had a plan when they picked him up, but he's been invisible. They've added three guys now who are DE / LB tweeners in McClellin, Mingo, and Van Noy, but none has made any kind of impact.

 

[Stitch01]

The defense isn't any good and isn't going to get better and they ain't winning shit with it. They can't defend the pass, they can't rush the passer, and sometimes they can't stop the run. They're slow and small and don't do anything right.

Other than that things are great.

Ryan can't play. Coleman can't play. McClellin can't play. I'm pretty sure Roberts is going to be completely overmatched at OLB now that he's the starter. McCourty is one of the good things on the D at S, you don't take him out of that spot to play a role he was removed from a few years ago. Hightower is a beast but he's the only one.

Disagree they cant win with it. They would have won with a worse defense if Brady and Welker connect on a fairly routine pass. Colts 2006 was a worse defense. There aren't any super teams. Elite offense and averageish defense is certainly a contender, particularly if they get homefield and they're pretty likely to get home field.

 

[j44thor]

Disagree they cant win with it. They would have won with a worse defense if Brady and Welker connect on a fairly routine pass. Colts 2006 was a worse defense. There aren't any super teams. Elite offense and averageish defense is certainly a contender, particularly if they get homefield and they're pretty likely to get home field.

Is homefield really going to help that much against a PIT or OAK? Those are the two teams that concern me most in the playoffs. We probably shouldn't sleep on MIA either though now that they can run the ball.

This is probably the worst D line in the BB era.

 

[Shelterdog]

Is homefield really going to help that much against a PIT or OAK?

Yes. Why wouldn't it?

 

[Rico Guapo]

Is homefield really going to help that much against a PIT or OAK? Those are the two teams that concern me most in the playoffs. We probably shouldn't sleep on MIA either though now that they can run the ball.

This is probably the worst D line in the BB era.

IMO it's the worst front seven they've trotted out in a long time....

 

[Stitch01]

Is homefield really going to help that much against a PIT or OAK? Those are the two teams that concern me most in the playoffs. We probably shouldn't sleep on MIA either though now that they can run the ball.

This is probably the worst D line in the BB era.

It matters some, like 5 points and whatever win equity that entails vs. playing on the road. Steelers home/away splits would argue it very much matters against their offense, but there's an argument how real/meaningful those are. Miami probably isn't going to make the playoffs.

 

[dcmissle]

Disagree they cant win with it. They would have won with a worse defense if Brady and Welker connect on a fairly routine pass. Colts 2006 was a worse defense. There aren't any super teams. Elite offense and averageish defense is certainly a contender, particularly if they get homefield and they're pretty likely to get home field.

This is undoubtedly the result of a spoiled mindset -- championship or bust -- but the problem is, by the end, a couple or several teams are going to present as well rounded and reasonably complete. And our delta on offense is likely not going to be sufficient to overcome it.

Based on what I saw in Pittsburgh yesterday, I would not include the Steelers. I probably would include Denver, especially on home turf. Have not seen enough of Oakland.

The problem is in the other conference, most notably Seattle and Dallas. Things change, but put last night on a neutral field and assume Seahawk improvement on offense as Wilson continues to round into form. I refuse to think about what Elliot, Dez, Beasley, Witten and Dak would do to our defense; we'd have to score on every possession.

Dismaying is that other teams have been able to coach up apparently deficient defensive units. Dallas is Exhibit A. Hell, I'd swap out our defense for the Redskins' at this point. They generate pass pressure consistently from 3 players, have an elite player in the secondary, and have a workmanlike LB crew.

We have to get better.

 

[nothumb]

I put it in the game thread but probably better here. I think you need to consider moving McCourty back to CB for this season. The RCB spot has been a revolving door of suck leaving McCourty the role of designated tackler 25yds downfield. I'm not sure how much value your highly paid FS is providing when all he does is stop long gains from becoming longer.

Harmon should be able to take over the FS role and you also invested a good amount of draft capital into Richards so would hope he contribute on the backend as well.

It's pretty matchup dependent but it seems like they are already walking DMC down in man and playing cover 1 against spread formations. I think Harmon was the lone deep guy on the Baldwin TD last night, but I don't have film. Between the two of them they are definitely more likely to use DMC to cover a TE or 4th receiver than Harmon.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I'm hoping that this game turns out like the Green Bay game did in 2014. They faced a really good offense, found their flaws, and corrected them for a SB run. That '14 defense wasn't a world-beater either. They struggled to keep good offenses off the scoreboard as well. Hopefully the coaches can get back to the drawing board and figure this out quickly.

 

[j44thor]

Yes. Why wouldn't it?

It didn't matter last night against a much worse offense.

 

[Stitch01]

Well its likely not in the sense that every playoff team is more likely than not to lose the Super Bowl, but Im not convinced that it would be better to have the same strength of team with a better defense and a worse offense if that makes sense.

Id also argue, given the Patriots historical record late in the season (last year an exception of course, but one that you can attribute to a real bad run of injuries), that we're likely to see some of that coaching up of a deficient defensive unit as the season progresses.

Also, just as an aside, the Raiders defense has been worse than the Patriots this year. The personnel would seem to indicate there is room for improvement, but I definitely wouldn't have them on the list of well rounded teams. My list of well rounded teams so far would include one name, Dallas, and we'll see how they hold up with some of the injuries on defense as the Steelers shredded them yesterday as well.

 

[Shelterdog]

It didn't matter last night against a much worse offense.

Just because they didn't win doesn't mean homefield doesn't matter.

I'm also not sure that Seattle is much worse offense than Pitt/Oakland; they have been but Wilson has been banged up.

Is there any evidence that home/away splits matter less for teams with good offenses than for teams with good defenses? The conventional wisdom at least is that defenses travel and offenses don't (which makes sense given how much harder communicating is on the road).

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Setting the edge, or playing zone, for that matter, are classic Pat tactics that rely on everyone buying into the "do your job" mentality. Last night was a MESS. It does make me wonder if BB saw the alleged Collins' freelancing as a potential bad apple poisoning the whole bunch thing. It certainly loooked like it last night..

Yup.

I think people are missing the forest for the trees here - last night was an epic failure of coaching and scheming. When Patrick Chung covers the wrong guy in zone - that's Pat Chung's problem. When nobody is covering the right guy, and 3 or 4 receivers are coming open on every play, that's a schematic or coaching issue.

I'm not saying the talent isn't a problem, but it was the smallest of the defensive problems last night.

 

[Captaincoop]

This is undoubtedly the result of a spoiled mindset -- championship or bust -- but the problem is, by the end, a couple or several teams are going to present as well rounded and reasonably complete. And our delta on offense is likely not going to be sufficient to overcome it.

Based on what I saw in Pittsburgh yesterday, I would not include the Steelers. I probably would include Denver, especially on home turf. Have not seen enough of Oakland.

The problem is in the other conference, most notably Seattle and Dallas. Things change, but put last night on a neutral field and assume Seahawk improvement on offense as Wilson continues to round into form. I refuse to think about what Elliot, Dez, Beasley, Witten and Dak would do to our defense; we'd have to score on every possession.

Dismaying is that other teams have been able to coach up apparently deficient defensive units. Dallas is Exhibit A. Hell, I'd swap out our defense for the Redskins' at this point. They generate pass pressure consistently from 3 players, have an elite player in the secondary, and have a workmanlike LB crew.

We have to get better.

The team is currently 7-2 and in the driver's seat for home field advantage. The coach you're worried about has won 6 Super Bowls. The Patriots have games like this every year, as does every team. I'd advocate for taking a deep breath and seeing where we go from here, which could very well be to another Super Bowl.

 

[Stitch01]

I'm hoping that this game turns out like the Green Bay game did in 2014. They faced a really good offense, found their flaws, and corrected them for a SB run. That '14 defense wasn't a world-beater either. They struggled to keep good offenses off the scoreboard as well. Hopefully the coaches can get back to the drawing board and figure this out quickly.

That '14 defense was pretty much better in every aspect of the game and their performance in GB wasn't that bad given the offense they were facing, last night was way worse.

 

[Stitch01]

Yup.

I think people are missing the forest for the trees here - last night was an epic failure of coaching and scheming. When Patrick Chung covers the wrong guy in zone - that's Pat Chung's problem. When nobody is covering the right guy, and 3 or 4 receivers are coming open on every play, that's a schematic or coaching issue.

I'm not saying the talent isn't a problem, but it was the smallest of the defensive problems last night.

I don't agree with this. Scheming and coaching were bad, fine, but the problems with the pass defense start with almost no one ever winning a one on one battle in the pass rush and that's a talent issue that's been going on all year. They played conservative sometimes last night, played aggressive at times last night, pretty much got burnt no matter what they did. Glad Flowers is getting more playing time, he looks like the one guy that can help in that regard but, frankly, the biggest problem to me looks like they don't have a player (warts and all) like Chandler Jones up front.

 

[aksoxfan]

BB should spend less time writing letters in support of his buddies, and coach his defense to play better.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

I don't agree with this. Scheming and coaching were bad, fine, but the problems with the pass defense start with almost no one ever winning a one on one battle in the pass rush and that's a talent issue that's been going on all year. They played conservative sometimes last night, played aggressive at times last night, pretty much got burnt no matter what they did. Glad Flowers is getting more playing time, he looks like the one guy that can help in that regard but, frankly, the biggest problem to me looks like they don't have a player (warts and all) like Chandler Jones up front.

There were very few plays last night where there was more than one 1-on-1 in the pass rush - the vast majority of plays were 2 or 3 man rushes. You're not going to see much of a passrush when your DL spend the whole night double teamed.

They chose to not rush the passer for most of the game last night.

 

[Stitch01]

BB should spend less time writing letters in support of his buddies, and coach his defense to play better.

The guy writes 100 notes a week. I doubt the six minutes he took to write the letter to Trump took away a lot of time from defensive responsibilities. Distraction talk is fair game, but I always think that stuff is kind of overrated.

There were very few plays last night where there was more than one 1-on-1 in the pass rush - the vast majority of plays were 2 or 3 man rushes. You're not going to see much of a passrush when your DL spend the whole night double teamed.

They chose to not rush the passer for most of the game last night.

Then when they did choose to rush they got burnt, and they weren't rushing two or three on the majority of plays, just at certain times. Its been the same problem all year. They cant rush the passer no matter what they do.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The guy writes 100 notes a week. I doubt the six minutes he took to write the letter to Trump took away a lot of time from defensive responsibilities. Distraction talk is fair game, but I always think that stuff is kind of overrated.

I think his claim of writing 100 notes a week is total bullshit.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

You're never as good as you look on your best day and never as bad as you look on your worst day.

This defense has real issues, particularly in the pass rush, and we all know that. But before yesterday they had allowed >20 points only three times in eight games and never given up more than 25. I still don't agree with the Collins trade but he had been a marginal figure for much of the season so its not like everything changed when he was traded.

We have an average-to-mediocre defense that happened to play very poorly yesterday and was also coached badly. The real question is how we bounce back and I have faith in BB and Patricia to find some solutions. This group is never going to be a dominating defense, but they could be a defense that finds a way to get enough stops to allow a dominant offense to carry the team.

 

[dcmissle]

The team is currently 7-2 and in the driver's seat for home field advantage. The coach you're worried about has won 6 Super Bowls. The Patriots have games like this every year, as does every team. I'd advocate for taking a deep breath and seeing where we go from here, which could very well be to another Super Bowl.

Nobody's breathing is impaired. We're having a conversation and cannot impact the outcome to any degree.

A legitimate question is whether a "game[]like this every year" is reflective of systemic weakness, or not.

The game last year that fits this description was the home loss to Philly. By contributing mightily to flipping home field to Denver, it probably hurt us badly. But it was a one-off that said nothing about the team. That's because that cluster featured special teams' meltdowns and an inability to protect the football. Our biggest weakness last year was o-line ineffectiveness, caused very substantially by injury.

This is arguably different. Until last night, we played no QB you'd want to take to a playoff game and no terribly impressive offense. That won't hold in January. Time will tell whether we can get better.

 

[Captaincoop]

Nobody's breathing is impaired. We're having a conversation and cannot impact the outcome to any degree.

A legitimate question is whether a "game[]like this every year" is reflective of systemic weakness, or not.

The game last year that fits this description was the home loss to Philly. By contributing mightily to flipping home field to Denver, it probably hurt us badly. But it was a one-off that said nothing about the team. That's because that cluster featured special teams' meltdowns and an inability to protect the football. Our biggest weakness last year was o-line ineffectiveness, caused very substantially by injury.

This is arguably different. Until last night, we played no QB you'd want to take to a playoff game and no terribly impressive offense. That won't hold in January. Time will tell whether we can get better.

And this terrifying Cowboys team you speak of...who have they beaten that is going to be playing in January?

 

[Stitch01]

I think his claim of writing 100 notes a week is total bullshit.

I read an article last week that suggests otherwise, let me find you the link, I cant find it right now quickly by googling. If anyone else read the same article they can chime in, might have even been posted in the thread on here. Basically Browns fans from 1994 who had written the coach and received handwritten notes back that, in part, said that he responded to every piece of correspondence that reaches his desk. Given the nature of what was responded to in the article, the man likes to write notes and use exclamation points. Is 100 a week exaggeration for effect, I don't know, probably, but I don't think the note to Trump was particularly out of the ordinary for BB/

 

[bakahump]

Roberts seemed very bad last night. I watched him alot (though not exclusively) and he disappointed (Please contradict me if you feel different).

Nink may be done. I have always thought and frequently said here that he was an effort guy and effort guys who are 30+ do not give me confidence. Effort guys who are 32 and who have been busted for the PED policy (and thus are more likely to avoid using them due to increased scrutiny....when they might actually NEED them) is a really bad combination.

Long has been a disappointment. He just doesnt seem to set the edge like they ask....yet the coaches run him out there every game. Last night Long beelined in on every pass collapsing one side of containment on pretty much every pass. Wilson then rolled Left or right and threw about 5-8 pass completions last night.

Butler was not Butler quality imho.

And who the hell is going to cover backs? Collins was screwing up alot....but as Hasselback said, his length and speed made throws to whoever he was covering that much harder not impossible but harder. Did Mingo take the field? Van Noy? Mcclellin looked bad and Roberts looked positively Brandon Spikeish in "Coverage".

 

[Stitch01]

Nobody's breathing is impaired. We're having a conversation and cannot impact the outcome to any degree.

A legitimate question is whether a "game[]like this every year" is reflective of systemic weakness, or not.

The game last year that fits this description was the home loss to Philly. By contributing mightily to flipping home field to Denver, it probably hurt us badly. But it was a one-off that said nothing about the team. That's because that cluster featured special teams' meltdowns and an inability to protect the football. Our biggest weakness last year was o-line ineffectiveness, caused very substantially by injury.

This is arguably different. Until last night, we played no QB you'd want to take to a playoff game and no terribly impressive offense. That won't hold in January. Time will tell whether we can get better.

Id say no because basically every team in the NFL has a game like this every year. So it would be hard for me to classify it as a systematic weakness.

I think, collectively, people had too high of an opinion of the Pats defense going into last night's game and are at the same time overreacting to one game.

 

[TheMoralBully]

If they're as bad as they were last night, they are obviously in trouble. If they're closer to the mediocrity they were over the first 8 games, they're still one of the top 3 super bowl favorites. It's very disappointing because of the hype and hope that surrounded this defense coming into the year, but we're well past that now. Hopefully they can fix the secondary confusion, get this unit back to a league average bend-but-don't-break BB staple and the offense can win some nail biters in January again.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

There were very few plays last night where there was more than one 1-on-1 in the pass rush - the vast majority of plays were 2 or 3 man rushes. You're not going to see much of a passrush when your DL spend the whole night double teamed.

They chose to not rush the passer for most of the game last night.

It's probably worth wondering if that strategy is worth a damn any more. I know the idea is to keep Wilson in the pocket and force him to throw the ball from there, but he's far too accurate and the zone D far too soft for that technique to trouble him in any way.

I think BB royally screwed up this year by dealing the extremely athletic Collins, because the guys that are left can't cover the ground to pressure the QB. I think they're going to have to blitz more going forward if they have any hope of succeeding in the playoffs.

 

[Captaincoop]

You're never as good as you look on your best day and never as bad as you look on your worst day.

This defense has real issues, particularly in the pass rush, and we all know that. But before yesterday they had allowed >20 points only three times in eight games and never given up more than 25. I still don't agree with the Collins trade but he had been a marginal figure for much of the season so its not like everything changed when he was traded.

We have an average-to-mediocre defense that happened to play very poorly yesterday and was also coached badly. The real question is how we bounce back and I have faith in BB and Patricia to find some solutions. This group is never going to be a dominating defense, but they could be a defense that finds a way to get enough stops to allow a dominant offense to carry the team.

Agreed 100%. Panic does not seem warranted. This is still a very good team, just one that laid an egg against a quality opponent last night.

It would be nice if we hadn't completely squandered the Easley pick and then had last year's #1 pick stolen by the NFL...two additional first-round talents on this defense would look nice right now.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

http://nesn.com/2016/11/trey-flowers-climbs-patriots-depth-chart-at-jabaal-sheards-expense/

The emergence of Flowers the past two weeks is a great sign. While 4 sacks in last two games is not sustainable, it does give the team more depth at the position. Flowers, Nink, Sheard, and Long could be a good rotation that puts Sheard and Long in situations that they can succeed in. I'd much rather have that rotation with Thuney and Mitchell than having Chandler Jones.

The secondary should hopefully improve and it really comes down to the corner opposite Butler. Logan Ryan should be that guy and hopefully he turns it around. If not, just keep giving snaps to Rowe and others to try and find roles for them.

Hopefully over these weeks we see if Mingo can do anything. Great special teams player so far but I would like to see him come in on third down and be used to blitz and disrupt the passing game.

We shall see what happens. Long way to go and thankfully enough time to try and find some solutions. Just a league average defense, combined with this offense, gives this team a real shot against anyone.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I was driving back from Austin so I listened to all but the last 6:00 of the game on the radio. Solder was getting a lot of flack during the first half at least. On one particular drive he was beat 3 times in a row.
As for the defense and schemes. They got beat in man and zone... from what I read, heard, and observed, they didn't execute. Not much you can do if you don't execute. Coleman and Ryan were called out a lot.

 

[Bowhemian]

Yeah, they were running man coverage, and were getting beat (but not terribly). Then they went to zone, and that was a nightmare. I mean, could Doug Baldwin be any more open on those touchdown throws?
Anyway, it looked like they went back to man coverage, and guys were still wide open.

Now part of that was the fact that Seattle is actually pretty good. Wilson was on fire, and his receivers were doing a great job getting open. After they got over their "dropsies" in the first quarter, they were off to the races.

I was left very impressed with Seattle, and very depressed with the Pats defense.