The Bagwell-Andersen fleecing

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
A fleecing is Bagwell for Andersen (who was a rental) or on the other side Slocumb for Varitek and Lowe.
Now I really don't get the definition of "fleecing." Gorman went looking for Andersen, who did about what Gorman would have expected of him, and offered up Bagwell. Did Houston know something about Bagwell that Gorman didn't? I think we fans can claim to have been "fleeced" but Gorman has absolutely zero excuses.

You guys keep talking about "fleecing" when I think you really just mean a bad trade, as judged in hindsight. That's fine, but there is no way that hindsight tells GM #1 that he'd better not trade with GM #2 anymore.

[Edit] Adding, the typical definition of "fleecing" relates to overcharging people in a fraudulent way. If internet-supplied definitions mean anything, that is.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
Now I really don't get the definition of "fleecing." Gorman went looking for Andersen, who did about what Gorman would have expected of him, and offered up Bagwell. Did Houston know something about Bagwell that Gorman didn't? I think we fans can claim to have been "fleeced" but Gorman has absolutely zero excuses.

You guys keep talking about "fleecing" when I think you really just mean a bad trade, as judged in hindsight. That's fine, but there is no way that hindsight tells GM #1 that he'd better not trade with GM #2 anymore.

[Edit] Adding, the typical definition of "fleecing" relates to overcharging people in a fraudulent way. If internet-supplied definitions mean anything, that is.
Gorman fleeced us, the fans, with the BFA trade.
 

trekfan55

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 29, 2004
11,587
Panama
Now I really don't get the definition of "fleecing." Gorman went looking for Andersen, who did about what Gorman would have expected of him, and offered up Bagwell. Did Houston know something about Bagwell that Gorman didn't? I think we fans can claim to have been "fleeced" but Gorman has absolutely zero excuses.

You guys keep talking about "fleecing" when I think you really just mean a bad trade, as judged in hindsight. That's fine, but there is no way that hindsight tells GM #1 that he'd better not trade with GM #2 anymore.

[Edit] Adding, the typical definition of "fleecing" relates to overcharging people in a fraudulent way. If internet-supplied definitions mean anything, that is.
I am a little more flexible in terms of "fleecing". If a GM tells another that a player has certain abilities that he doesn't have then yeah, he's overcharging. But in today's world of publicly available stats and information this is hard to do. And when someone does it there is a chance to reverse things, as in the Drew Pomeranz false health records fiasco. But there are certain GMs that demand a lot, and sometimes get it because one team is desperate. It is that kind of deal that makes GMs not want to deal with other GMs. Not sure of the consequences but Zambrano for Kazmir comes to mind.

BTW I think Bagwell for Andersen was fleecing but maybe it wasn't because Gorman gave too much, not that Houston asked for too much.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Something else to factor into the equation w/r/t the Bagwell-Anderson trade is that it wasn't originally a "rental". Anderson wasn't a free agent to be when they acquired him. He was declared a free agent as part of a settlement regarding collusion.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,671
Something else to factor into the equation w/r/t the Bagwell-Anderson trade is that it wasn't originally a "rental". Anderson wasn't a free agent to be when they acquired him. He was declared a free agent as part of a settlement regarding collusion.
Although this was known to be a possible outcome at the time they acquired him. From the Globe article regarding the trade:

Andersen, who is eligible for the Sox' 25-man playoff roster, is considered one of the best setup men in the National League. The righthander, a sinker-slider pitcher, is signed through the 1991 season at $965,000 per year. His '91 salary kicked in after he made his 45th appearance. There is some question whether Andersen will be granted free agency next year as a result of the Collusion 1987 ruling, which affected him]
Edit: Just for fun-

The Oakland A's get Willie McGee and Harold Baines. The Red Sox get Larry Andersen. Is it like countering a nuclear attack with a squirt gun?
"I don't care about their deal," said Red Sox general manager Lou Gorman. "I tried to get this guy three weeks ago."
Three weeks ago, the Houston Astros were evidently holding out for Babe Ruth for the 37-year-old reliever. So the Red Sox gave them Lou Gehrig. Well, not quite, but third baseman Jeff Bagwell, a University of Hartford product, was considered one of Boston's best prospects. Bagwell, who played all season in Double A New Britain, hit .333 with 4 home runs and 61 RBIs.
"We had depth at third base with Wade Boggs, Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper," said Gorman. "It was one area where we could afford to lose a player in order to get a pitcher who could help us win the pennant. If we win the pennant with Andersen, the deal is worth it."
/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,101
This doesn't make it a good trade, but worth noting that Andersen kicked ass while he was here in a year when we won the division by only 2 games. 22 IP, 1.23 ERA, 25 K, 3 BB, 0 HR.
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,613
There also has to be some element of doubt about what kind of player Bags would have been had he played in a...um...different era.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,895
Los Angeles, CA
Although this was known to be a possible outcome at the time they acquired him. From the Globe article regarding the trade:



Edit: Just for fun-
Yup. I vividly remember driving home from Fenway after the game the night this trade was announced and hating it. Sports radio was definitely depicting the move as a probable year-end rental. I can't remember who the post-game talk show host was back then, but he and virtually every caller were absolutely skewering Gorman over the deal - mortgaging our future for little return.
 

MikeM

Member
SoSH Member
May 27, 2010
3,049
Florida
Not that I'm completely doubting a lot of 27 year old recollections, but it was a completely different time back then. Following box scores when the game wasn't on channel 17 (I lived in NY at the time), waiting on that one paragraph about a young guy that might pop up in your weekly print of Baseball Weekly, ect.

Maybe I was simply too young to fully comprehend the immediate aftermath outrage that still might of went on, warranting a truly legit "we just got fleeced" claim, but most of what I do remember in direct terms of people complaining about giving up Bagwell started up after-the-fact and only during the following year.
 
Last edited:

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,679
A lot of us really hardcore types hated it, as did a lot of Boston's then internal scouts. They thought that the guy Boston should have been trading was the one Houston requested, Scott Cooper. Yaz, who was Boston's roving hitting instructor in those days, was convinced that Bagwell was the best hitter then in their system.
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
A lot of us really hardcore types hated it, as did a lot of Boston's then internal scouts. They thought that the guy Boston should have been trading was the one Houston requested, Scott Cooper. Yaz, who was Boston's roving hitting instructor in those days, was convinced that Bagwell was the best hitter then in their system.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/53904700/

Gorman admitted to the "sinking feeling", which means case closed. People in the organization knew. What the two fan bases may have thought really doesn't matter.

I had heard Gammons explain leaving the game early and ripping his program. I didn't know he walked two miles home.
 

MikeM

Member
SoSH Member
May 27, 2010
3,049
Florida
A lot of us really hardcore types hated it, as did a lot of Boston's then internal scouts. They thought that the guy Boston should have been trading was the one Houston requested, Scott Cooper. Yaz, who was Boston's roving hitting instructor in those days, was convinced that Bagwell was the best hitter then in their system.
Like I said I don't completely doubt some that did indeed take place. Just question how many of those recollections out there have collected a lot of hindsight dust over the years.

Many years ago I curiously tried to dig up actual and non-recollection proof of the widely claimed outrage. Something ideally dated to around the time period of the trade ( and before Bagwell was having success at the MLB level). An archived newspaper article blasting the trade of Bagwell, what Gammons wrote then and if it matched up with his latter story, ect ect. I never really found anything. That stuff to me would have been a lot of fun to read back on.
 

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,007
Like I said I don't completely doubt some that did indeed take place. Just question how many of those recollections out there have collected a lot of hindsight dust over the years.

Many years ago I curiously tried to dig up actual and non-recollection proof of the widely claimed outrage. Something ideally dated to around the time period of the trade ( and before Bagwell was having success at the MLB level). An archived newspaper article blasting the trade of Bagwell, what Gammons wrote then and if it matched up with his latter story, ect ect. I never really found anything. That stuff to me would have been a lot of fun to read back on.
I do remember listening to a radio show Gammons was on after the trade. He really was mad. He didn't go ballistic but was really frustrated. I didn't know much about Bagwell before the trade so I was surprised by his reaction. I wish that I had better proof than just my word.
 

m0ckduck

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,714
Like I said I don't completely doubt some that did indeed take place. Just question how many of those recollections out there have collected a lot of hindsight dust over the years.

Many years ago I curiously tried to dig up actual and non-recollection proof of the widely claimed outrage. Something ideally dated to around the time period of the trade ( and before Bagwell was having success at the MLB level). An archived newspaper article blasting the trade of Bagwell, what Gammons wrote then and if it matched up with his latter story, ect ect. I never really found anything. That stuff to me would have been a lot of fun to read back on.
I remember learning about the trade at the time from this article:

Three weeks ago, the Houston Astros were evidently holding out for Babe Ruth for the 37-year-old reliever. So the Red Sox gave them Lou Gehrig. Well, not quite, but third baseman Jeff Bagwell, a University of Hartford product, was considered one of Boston’s best prospects.
Not exactly 'outrage', but I read a coded conclusion that 'Boston just fucked up' expressed in the fact that three paragraphs are devoted to Bagwell's potential and whether the Sox overpaid. Granted, it's hard to reliably separate the sentiment from the standard Boston sports pissyness, but it dovetails with the general 'uh oh' feelings about this trade that I recall at the time it went down.

As to Andersen's contract situation: I only remember that his age (37) was constantly mentioned in conjunction with the trade. I think it was widely assumed that he was a one-year rental for all intents and purposes, although that might just be my recollection.
 

Cuzittt

Bouncing with Anger
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 20, 2001
20,301
Sinister Funkhouse #17
Apropos of nothing in particular, I was researching baseball-reference for a piece I'm writing for the com. And, part of that research led me to the 1990 New Britain Red Sox.

As noted above, Bagwell had four Homers that year for New Britain. Which ranked him second on the team. The team itself hit a grand total of... 31.

The exact cause of the Homer shortage for New Britain was probably multi-faceted. Ballpark, League, pitchers faced, weather. But, it seems likely that Gorman did not delve into all of that.

He wasn't incorrect in all of his remarks. He did have a number of 3rd baseman in the organization. It was a surplus he could use.

He just chose poorly.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using SoSH mobile app
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,101
I'm sure you thought of this, but it would great to see home/road splits (doesn't look like b-ref has them). I recall reading that Beehive field was an extreme pitchers park, and failure to understand cost them Bagwell.
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
For me, winning three titles since 2004 certainly took much of the sting away from BFA. Duquette fleecing the Mariners seven years after Gorman's gaffe didn't hurt either.
 

strek1

Run, Forrest, run!
SoSH Member
Jun 13, 2006
31,749
Hartford area
Those of us who attended New Britain Red Sox Games when Bagwell was there knew what a gem he was. The kid was a pit bill with a great offensive approach. I don't blame Sox fans who weren't familiar with him first hand to trust the organizations decision to trade him. It happens all the time. But watching that kid play in New Britain you just had a feeling he was going to be special. The other thing that bugged me about that trade was that Oakland was the defending WS Champs and they were very powerful. They were on their way to a 3rd straight series (Which they lost) and looked much better than us. I didn't think getting that one bullpen arm was enough to close the gap. I'd have rather kept Bagwell. But hey, we have more than made up for all the sadness! I just wish Gorman would have stopped saying over the years "I'd have made that trade again".
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
There is hearsay at least, maybe from Gammons, that Gorman had never been to New Britain to personally see Bagwell play. This was supposed to be a big scandal. I know we often read now a days that the senior management is visiting a minor league affiliate for a game. I don't know if in those seats it was so common that not having done so was a bad mark on Gorman.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
I'm sure you thought of this, but it would great to see home/road splits (doesn't look like b-ref has them). I recall reading that Beehive field was an extreme pitchers park, and failure to understand cost them Bagwell.
The thing is Nobody (other than Bill James - and the fortunate few readers of his Annuals) understood park effects at that time. So it's not like Houston thought they were getting a HOF caliber player for a relief pitcher. Bagwell put up an .880 ops as a 22 year old in New Britain - which is a pretty good line.

I think an excellent comp would have been if the Sox had traded Chavis for Addison Reed. Both Chavis and Bagwell were viewed as blocked by more advanced players in their respective systems .. Scott Cooper in Bagwell's case. Fortunately they didn't trade Chavis.

One other note .. when Duquette came on board one of his first quotes, IIRC was that the biggest mistake a GM could make was not knowing his own system - an obvious dig at Gorman.

Edit : that may have been Theo.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,734
Deep inside Muppet Labs
There is hearsay at least, maybe from Gammons, that Gorman had never been to New Britain to personally see Bagwell play. This was supposed to be a big scandal. I know we often read now a days that the senior management is visiting a minor league affiliate for a game. I don't know if in those seats it was so common that not having done so was a bad mark on Gorman.
I've heard the very same thing, so we either read it from the same source or it was widely known at the time.

Gorman basically had zero idea of park effects in New Britain, figured that Bagwell had no power and Cooper was a better prospect who was closer to the majors, and so dealt from what he thought was a surplus at 3d base.
 

mt8thsw9th

anti-SoSHal
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
17,120
Brooklyn
Bagwell put up an .880 ops as a 22 year old in New Britain - which is a pretty good line
The league average was around .650, so that was a bit more than "pretty good". Even without considering park effects, he was clearly one of the best hitters in the league. Home runs uber alles, though.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
While looking for something else, I ran across this really good article about the trade from Bill James website. A little bit of it quoted below.

I remember hearing about the trade; people forget that except for the Sunday weekly column from Gammons, most of us didn't have any insight into minor league prospects. And Gammo had to be taken with a few lumps of salt - we could only get excited by the likes of Wes Gardner and Jeff Gray so many times.

But the worst part - if rumours are true - is turning down Scott Cooper. Oh well.

The Red Sox had two problems.

Well…problems isn’t the right word. The Red Sox had two variables that complicate this story. The first very obvious variable is that the team already had a Wade Boggs-type player: they had Wade Boggs. Boggs was under contract for two more seasons, and it was highly unlikely that they were going to move their perennial batting champ just to see if Bagwell has the same talent.

This seems, at least to me, like an eminently reasonable position to take. We wouldn’t expect a major league team to be cavalier with one of the best players in the major leagues, just to make room for someone putting up the same numbers in in Double-A. There’s too much of a gap between who Wade Boggs was in 1990 and who Jeff Bagwell was in 1990 for the team to seriously consider moving Boggs.

So that’s issue one: the Sox had Wade Boggs entrenched at third base, at least for a few more years. We all know that.

The second variable is less known. The second variable is that the Red Sox were insanely crowded at any position where Jeff Bagwell could have reasonably played. At third base, the Red Sox had Wade Boggs, and then they had Scott Cooper in Triple-A. We’ll come back to Scott Cooper.

What about first base? That’s the positon that Bagwell was transitions over to. How did the Red Sox look at first base?

The Red Sox had Carlos Quintana, a rookie, playing at first base. Carlos Quintana wasn’t blocking anyone, but he held his own 1990 rookie year, posting a respectable triple-slash line. But Quintana was viewed as a place-holder for the Red Sox 1989 first-round pick, who was, in the summer of 1990, crushing baseballs in Pawtucket. The same year that Jeff Bagwell posted his .879 OPS in Double-A, Mo Vaughn was posting a .921 OPS in Triple-A. The Red Sox clearly saw Vaughn as their future first basemen, and judging by what Vaughn and Bagwell had done to that point in their profession careers, that was an absolutely reasonable projection. Vaughn was a better hitter than Bagwell in the summer of 1990.

And the Red Sox were right, as it turned out. Mo Vaughn turned into a terrific player.

What about the outfield?

The Red Sox outfield was crowded. Mike Greenwell was a twenty-six year old with an adjusted OPS of 137. Ellis Burks was a year younger, and was entering a season in which he’d win the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger as a centerfielder. The team added Tom Brunansky early in the year…they swapped Lee Smith for Bruno, who was under contract for two seasons past 1990.

And the Red Sox had Phil Plantier waiting in Triple-A. Mo Vaughn hit 22 homers in Pawtucket in 1990….but Phil Plantier hit 33 homers for that team. In 1991, Plantier cracked the Red Sox lineup halfway through the year and ended up posting a batting line that would’ve made Fred Lynn blush: a .615 slugging percentage in 53 games.

Phil Plantier had a short career, but he was a good hitter: after a disappointing sophomore turn, the Red Sox traded him to San Diego, where he put up a 34 HR, 100 RBI season before fading into obscurity. That’s not really ‘fading’: he could hit.

So it is not just that Jeff Bagwell’s path to the majors was blocked by other prospects …it’s that Jeff Bagwell‘s path to the majors was blocked by a lot of prospects and young major leaguers who actually had good major league careers. Mo Vaughn wasn’t a better player than Bagwell, but he won an MVP and hit a bunch of homers. Ellis Burks and Mike Greenwell and Tom Brunansky aren’t getting into the Hall, but they all had fine careers. Wade Boggs was a terrific player through his thirties, though he ended up missing Fenway Park tremendously. He got to ride a horse, which is nice. Carlos Quintana was a good player in 1990 and 1991.
 

jaytftwofive

New Member
Jan 20, 2013
1,182
Drexel Hill Pa.
I've met Larry Anderson where I live outside of Philly. In 1997 he came into the store I was working. I told him I'm a Red Sox fan and he says right away..."Oh please don't say Jeff Bagwell" We both laughed. He told me he wanted a 2 year deal but Gorman only offered him a one year deal. He wanted to stay in Boston. He said it was the best baseball town he played in. Nice guy. Not to many baseball players are friendly but he was.
 

jaytftwofive

New Member
Jan 20, 2013
1,182
Drexel Hill Pa.
I've met Larry Anderson where I live outside of Philly. In 1997 he came into the store I was working. I told him I'm a Red Sox fan and he says right away..."Oh please don't say Jeff Bagwell" We both laughed. He told me he wanted a 2 year deal but Gorman only offered him a one year deal. He wanted to stay in Boston. He said it was the best baseball town he played in. Nice guy. Not to many baseball players are friendly but he was.[/Q
I've met Larry Anderson where I live outside of Philly. In 1997 he came into the store I was working. I told him I'm a Red Sox fan and he says right away..."Oh please don't say Jeff Bagwell" We both laughed. He told me he wanted a 2 year deal but Gorman only offered him a one year deal. He wanted to stay in Boston. He said it was the best baseball town he played in. Nice guy. Not to many baseball players are friendly but he was.
And two years ago I was listening to the Phillies-Red Sox game on the Phillies station and Anderson a color analyst for the Phillies told the play by play host that when he was checking into the hotel some fans recognized him and were saying Yaw the guy that was traded fah Bagwell.(His Boston accent). He replied oh Jeez let it go it was 25 years ago. You have 3 World Series titles get over it. Good sense of humor.