The Alex Cora Difference
- Thread starter TheoShmeo
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I never want to overreact to one game, but I thought Cora really pushed the wrong buttons in the lineup. At some point you will need to outslug the Yanks to win, and that came tonight, and despite everything with Price it's not that surprising it came with him on the mound. Nunez is not that much better defensively and that also showed tonight.
as far as his bullpen management, he kept a really struggling offense in the game until the 7th when ERod gave it up. the Yanks just crush lesser lefties when they make mistakes, and Price & ERod are just not elite enough right now.
everyone but some middle relief guys had a bad night so I dunno. but we need the max offense lineup out there to win a game at yankee Stadium.
as far as his bullpen management, he kept a really struggling offense in the game until the 7th when ERod gave it up. the Yanks just crush lesser lefties when they make mistakes, and Price & ERod are just not elite enough right now.
everyone but some middle relief guys had a bad night so I dunno. but we need the max offense lineup out there to win a game at yankee Stadium.
Put in the guys that do the good hit not the bad hit. I think anyways.
You want me to stop skipping half?do you always have to attack every other one of my posts?
EDIT--and fwiw, I seriously can't figure out what you're trying to say in that dramatic post.
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I think he’s saying play Devers, Holt and Swihart (I guess).
1. Nunez was out of character defensively on Saturday. I trust him infinitely more than Devers at 3B. Can’t give up fielding on the prospect that Devers won’t throw the ball away and then strike out.
2. Kinsler is a really good 2nd baseman. Holt is a good option off the bench. Decision is understandable.
3. I have to believe the coaches know more about Leon versus the others. It’s certainly not a loyalty thing. Maybe it’s the difference between going 0 for 3 versus 1 for 7?
1. Nunez was out of character defensively on Saturday. I trust him infinitely more than Devers at 3B. Can’t give up fielding on the prospect that Devers won’t throw the ball away and then strike out.
2. Kinsler is a really good 2nd baseman. Holt is a good option off the bench. Decision is understandable.
3. I have to believe the coaches know more about Leon versus the others. It’s certainly not a loyalty thing. Maybe it’s the difference between going 0 for 3 versus 1 for 7?
while 3B is his best position, let's not fool ourselves and say Nunez is good defensively. he just isn't. the upside of Devers is he's much more likely to hit for power while Nunez is still giving away ABs anyways swinging out of the zone.
Kinsler/Holt is closer. but it's not even productive outs from him right now, it's Ks and popups. I acknowledge that Holt does sometimes K in frustrating ways and could be a dud too.
I'm fine with Leon the way he's catching, although his OBP is insanely terrible lately.
Kinsler/Holt is closer. but it's not even productive outs from him right now, it's Ks and popups. I acknowledge that Holt does sometimes K in frustrating ways and could be a dud too.
I'm fine with Leon the way he's catching, although his OBP is insanely terrible lately.
Sox bats have been quiet since early the 2nd game. So,
Devers >>>> Nunez at the plate, and isn't really all that much worse in the field. Nunez can be used as a late inning replacement if clinging to a lead.
Kinsler has been awful.
Moreland is hurt, so Pearce is at first.
Catcher is probably a wash.
Devers >>>> Nunez at the plate, and isn't really all that much worse in the field. Nunez can be used as a late inning replacement if clinging to a lead.
Kinsler has been awful.
Moreland is hurt, so Pearce is at first.
Catcher is probably a wash.
Cora fucked up not PHing for Vaz in the 8th. also screwed by Angel on the last pitch of that frame. But that was his only major gaffe in these two games.
Nunez had a great game, bullpen was a perfect bridge. Cora handily outmanaged Boone in New York.
Nunez had a great game, bullpen was a perfect bridge. Cora handily outmanaged Boone in New York.
Not to mention Porcello pitching a gem to new batterymate Vaz, who also provided the margin of victory with an opposite field HR off Zach Britton (still can't believe that happened).
Yeah, what was up with that? Holt needs to hit for Vazquez vs Betances there. unless Leon was hurt. Maybe it just didn't matter the Betances' slider was working.
Major F up by not pinch hitting for Vaz, it was an absolutely obvious move to make.
Sox are a super talented team, I didn’t love seeing him get so much credit. The players earned this. Nothing he did was exceptionally great. Honestly, I thought some moves were obvious and a day late.
Sox are a super talented team, I didn’t love seeing him get so much credit. The players earned this. Nothing he did was exceptionally great. Honestly, I thought some moves were obvious and a day late.
You an argue how much credit he deserves vs the players, but he made about 6 moves today that I think most posters in the game thread disagreed with and all but not pinch hitting for Vaz worked out pretty much perfectly.
He's pretty obviously been terrific, and does his homework on what he's planning so it isn't like he's flying by the seat of his pants anyway, but I do agree this is the players' doing.
Kinsler with more k’s and more lobs. Yes, one hit but stranded a ton. No credit to Cora for that move.
Also, and this is gutsy, but Sale for the ninth was obvious.
Also, and this is gutsy, but Sale for the ninth was obvious.
To clarify - not hating on Cora at all. But just think the fellas earned this 100%. And don’t love the media’s (false) narrative
Kinsler nearly hit a grand slam in the first inning then came right back with a big double in the 3rd. How, exactly, are we not giving credit to Cora for that one? I think it took some serious balls to start him over Holt after Brock's day yesterday, but I think it was correct given the matchup and the flexibility to have Holt around later for the tougher relievers.
Then...he failed to PH for Vaz. Even if Sandy's banged up, that's still borderline inexcusable given the situation.
I don't think Sale for the 9th was so blatantly obvious. In retrospect it very clearly was, but at the time, the odds of Kimbrel having that bad of a game were low, nobody would've been surprised to see him give up a solo shot or something like that, but nobody can claim they actually saw THAT performance coming, and you didn't want to risk Sale giving the game up which would also risk his availability for G5.
I think he may be playing the long game with Vaz. It’s tough to take as a fan with some sweet insurance sitting out there in the 8th.
But, as much as Vazquez annoys me, he has been putting a bat on the ball and did hit a “homer”. Cora knows this guy is his catcher in the future, or at least he is going to be key in the upcoming series. He put some faith in the kid. I’m looking at it as a clubhouse type move. He’s been pretty damn good at using his players. And Sandy is a complete and total black hole at the plate. He’s got a three run lead with one of the best closers in the game ready. I think it was a worthwhile gamble.
But, as much as Vazquez annoys me, he has been putting a bat on the ball and did hit a “homer”. Cora knows this guy is his catcher in the future, or at least he is going to be key in the upcoming series. He put some faith in the kid. I’m looking at it as a clubhouse type move. He’s been pretty damn good at using his players. And Sandy is a complete and total black hole at the plate. He’s got a three run lead with one of the best closers in the game ready. I think it was a worthwhile gamble.
Exactly. You dance with the dates you brung, and he's been getting the last dance all season. That doesn't change now, and this keeps Sale at just a handful of pitches instead of 30 or more facing that part of the lineup, risking his availability for Saturday (or Thursday, if it all went south)
The bolded is probably true for about any team that wins a playoff series. The manager can play the matchup game better than anyone, but it still comes down to the talent and execution on the field.
I'm one of those that felt Cora did a good job managing Game 1; it wasn't his fault the pen fell apart, and he had no hesitation in using Porcello to get some key outs. He wasted no time in pulling Price out of Game 2 when it was still very much in reach.
Last night, Cora made one mistake, and that was not pinch hitting for Vazquez. They had 3 catchers on the roster, and Devers and Holt on the bench. He may have figured that with a 3 run lead and only 3 outs, it wasn't necessary, given that Vazquez was swinging the bat well. Pinch hitting is also hard; Sox pinch hitters batted 0.202 this year with 2 home runs in 84 at bats. So while I want the manager to take advantage of every opportunity to win the game in the postseason, the expected impact is probably very minimal in this instance.
I would have preferred to see Porcello come out for one more inning, but Cora obviously didn't want to see Porcello have to face the heart of the Yankees lineup for the 3rd time that night, which made pulling him the right move.
Cora couldn't know that Kimbrel would nearly cough up a 3 run lead, and Kimbrel was lights out in Game 1 (that HR was simply great hitting). So that's not really on Cora; Kimbrel has to throw strikes in that situation.
If this had been the 7th game of the World Series, you certainly seriously consider pitching Sale in the 9th. Otherwise, there is absolutely no chance that you don't go with Kimbrel. They need 8 more wins. To get those, they'll need him in a big way and this is his role.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Leon was banged up from blocking all those pitches earlier in the series.
Cora deserves a good deal of credit as the Sox advance. The moves he made (the moves we questioned) were mostly spot on and the bullpen over all was better than we thought it might be. Winning last night was huge, allowing three days off and the opportunity to get the rotation back in line and properly rested. Back to Cora...it will be interesting to see what advantage, if any, he'll have for the fact that he was with Houston last season. There wasn't a huge turnover with that team this season and I have to think that provides some sort of edge.
Has Cora given much of an answer to why he didn’t pinch hit for Vazquez? (I haven’t seen all that much TV or other media coverage since the game ended.)
Criticizing Alex Cora for not pitch-hitting for Vasquez is a nitpick, IMO. And it is not taking away anything from the players to acknowledge that Cora managed this series like a seasoned veteran and not a rookie like Boone clearly did. Loved the quick hook on Price and him bringing in Porcello and Sale in relief roles. I hope he learns from last night and doesn't feel the need to automatically award Kimbrel the ninth inning, especially if he gets creative with the starters and has someone pitching the eighth and is clearly effective.
Folks are going to be sorely disappointed if they think Cora is going to pull Kimbrel in situations like last night. The manager and the team have the utmost confidence in him. He’s going to be out there with no one warming despite the gnashing of teeth from the fanbase.
I’m not sure why it’s a nitpick.
The Sox had a three-run lead and runners on first and third with one out. Given Kimbrel’s rate of throwing pitches outside the strike zone, and the patient hitters not named Stanton on the MFYs, I was somewhat concerned even before the bottom of the 9th about whether he could hold the lead. Even one insurance run would have been huge.
Vazquez hits near Mendoza. Holt is a left handed hitter who has been silly hot of late. Cora has a catcher on the bench who is arguably better than Vazquez anyway and has almost certainly caught more of Kimbrel’s saves. And Cora has Swihart just in case Leon gets hurt and can’t continue.
To me, that was the perfect storm for Cora to bring in Holt and increase the odds of picking up another run.
Had the Sox lost last night, this would be a major discussion point, I suspect.
And yes yes yes, Cora has been excellent. I do think this was a pretty big mistake but the man makes dozens of decisions every day, and most of them seem to be right on the money. But not this one.
For what it's worth, Joe Kelly was warming at the end. I'm not sure how far along he was (another big, fat failure by TBS to not share this little tidbit) but it would not have surprised me to see him come in to try to finish out the 9th and send it to extras if the tying run had scored.
TBS did show a shot of an empty Boston bullpen at one point during Kimbrel's struggles, so Kelly must have gotten up pretty late.
Yeah, they showed the empty bullpen a couple of times prior, but no mention of Kelly warming up at all. I think the only time we saw him out there was in the replays of the celebration where he went from the mound to the door of the pen. I think Kimbrel had one more hitter if Torres got on. He was at 28 pitches and his season high was 33.
Sorry but I did (see Kimbrel's explosion). Just something bothered me, and I thought Sale would be better for the ninth. Almost immediately, Kimbrel's lack of control was upsetting.
The celebration shots were precisely when I learned that he was warming. Odd that, despite specifically mentioning no one was warming in the pen, they just completely glossed over the fact that someone did eventually get up to do so. I guess they were too caught up in showing us crowd shots and the millionth replay of Gary Sanchez's exploits to bother with the actual game.
Sale might have been better. But the risk taken for that better is that he he throws 35 pitches and a) loses and cant go thursday; or 2) saves and is diminished Saturday. Its not like the choice -- AT THE TIME HE MADE IT -- was Sale or Shitty Shitmaster.
As for Vazquez.....they were up by 3 with one out and the infield in. I suspect Cora was going with Vazquez ability to get his bat on the ball. (His K-rate is a lower than Holt's). That was his stated reason for starting him over Leon in Game 3.
That, and keeping the continuity behind the plate makes the move far less inexcusable to me than some are saying.
A 3-run lead entering the ninth is the definition of a "no-brainer" decision for a manager to use his closer. This one's on Kimbrel, not Cora.
I get the feeling Kelly was warming in case the Yankees tied it and Kimbrel got out of the inning. Craig certainly wasn't going to pitch the 10th.
Re: Kimbrel automatic as closer. A nitpick, but at the time I thought he should have left Sale in to close. I’d have thought differently had Sale’s pitch count not been so low. I’m more confident of that criticism after hearing that Sale wanted to stay in and... hindsight.
The criticism about letting Vaz hit with bases loaded is valid. What’s the point of carrying three weak-hitting catchers if you can’t pitch hit for them in high-leverage situations, especially when you can PH lefty v righty? Using Holt there seemed a no brainer. Even Devers would have been better.
That said, Cora gets an A-grade overall.
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