The AFCCG Post Game Thread: at Denver

[crystalline]

 
 
Yeah, I suggested in the pre-game thread lining up Vereen as a TE today. With Blount or Ridley in the backfield with Vereen also on the field, it would have made the Denver D more often guard against both the run and the pass at the same time.

 
You line up Gronk at TE because on run plays he can move a blocker to open a hole, and on pass plays he can run a route.
Vereen can't match up with a lineman or linebacker, so if you put him inline to block it doesn't help; your run play will get blown up by someone running over Vereen.
As an RB in the backfield, if you call a run play you hand the ball off to Blount or Ridley or Vereen and then every available player without the ball has to match up on a body and move them to open a run lane. 
 
that's why Gronk gives you flexibility. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
Oh, you were serious?
 
Vereen lining up in-line would've been a joke - he'd be fucking beaten to shit.  You don't necessarily need Gronk at the spot, but you need a guy who can physically man that position.  
 
It's not so much the physical placement of the player as much as it is who you can get the defense to stick on him on a given play.  It'd be a one-play gimmick, at best.

 
Definitely a gimmick, but for more than one play.

 

[dcmissle]

Can we just call Hernandez the goat and leave it at that. A receiving threat at TE would have helped this team immensely. They had no bigger targets today except a hobbled Dobson. It's also easy to point out that he is a shithead.

Add Amendola and you have my proxy.

There is no defense. He was pulled from the game with season on the line.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Add Amendola and you have my proxy.

There is no defense. He was pulled from the game with season on the line.

It's jarring that Austin collie was more reliable/productive then amendola

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

I want to toss a season long game ball to all y'all for being such good company this season, and sharing a grateful and realistic take for what I keep reading is a community of spoiled, entitled, arrogant fans. SeoulSox, Phragle, Tony C, RedOctober, Merlin, Snowplow, Twibnotes, Bankshot, (.)(.), DRS, Stitch, Wiggum, and too many more to mention...learned a lot from you and appreciate the insight.

So I'm down for a DT in the first round....

 

[mauf]

What makes you think: (a) Patterson is a good wide receiver right now, much less a fit for the Patriots; or (b) Patterson is better than the Collins/Ryan/Boyce/Blount platter.

Patterson is a Sunday Ticket RedZone stud, but he's a really unrefined player. You'd have a better argument for Keenan Allen later in the draft, actually.


I'm excusing Patterson's inconsistency and lackluster rookie stats based on terrible coaching and QB play. He has more natural ability than anyone the Pats sent out there today. I think he'd thrive in Foxboro, but of course reasonable opinion can differ on that.

 

[normstalls]

Was fine til I read this from the AP:

"But a loss is a loss and facts are facts. Bill Belichick is stuck on three titles and hasn't won one since the NFL busted him for the Spygate videotaping scandal."

I hate the idiotic media...

Great season for the Pats. No complaints at all. Dealt a tough hand and overcame a ton.

 

[Dogman]

I'm excusing Patterson's inconsistency and lackluster rookie stats based on terrible coaching and QB play. He has more natural ability than anyone the Pats sent out there today. I think he'd thrive in Foxboro, but of course reasonable opinion can differ on that.

 
From what I have read of him, Minny had to pare down the playbook based on the lack of IQ just to keep him on the field.  Sure, Minny's QB situation is poor, but a better QB would not have made him grasp the offense any better.

 

[LogansDad]

Was fine til I read this from the AP:

"But a loss is a loss and facts are facts. Bill Belichick is stuck on three titles and hasn't won one since the NFL busted him for the Spygate videotaping scandal."

I hate the idiotic media...

Great season for the Pats. No complaints at all. Dealt a tough hand and overcame a ton.

I have watched almost nothing about football besides the Pats games and the occasional post-game on NESN os CSN New England this year.  This may be better served in the "Future of Football" thread, but I honestly have little to no interest in the game outside of the Patriots anymore (partially because of the refereeing making the sport seem like the WWE, but perhaps moreso because I was home on leave in September and got to see my 11 year old nephew get knocked out with a concussion). 
 
I honestly think I enjoyed the Patriots' season more because of this... and in retrospect I think the media coverage of the sport over the last few years has a lot to do with my declined interest as well.  And stuff like your post just drives home that fact a little bit more.

 

[lexrageorge]

 
He's still a good QB, just not sure he's a top ten guy anymore, that's all, and he's past the point where he can make shitty receivers look good. Granted, there were some special circumstances this year.

Amendola had the highest yards-per-catch of his career.  
 
Julian Edelman, with all of 69 career receptions, had 105 this season.  The facts tell a very different story from the QBR rankings, which is very much distorted by Jay Cutler's taking advantage of the methods used to calculate QBR.

 

[lexrageorge]

Today:  as in 2009, they were definitely beat by the better all-around team.  But there are still disappointments:
 
- Brady missing those wide open deep balls.  That is on him, as he wasn't really rattled by that point by Denver's pass rush.
 
- Amendola's disappearing act. 
 
- Defense simply unable to make plays on 3rd down.  This is where the injuries truly caught up to them.
 
- O-Line unable to open any holes in the run game.  Denver's run defense is decent, but not Seattle caliber.  

 

[kolbitr]

Was fine til I read this from the AP:

"But a loss is a loss and facts are facts. Bill Belichick is stuck on three titles and hasn't won one since the NFL busted him for the Spygate videotaping scandal."

I hate the idiotic media...

Great season for the Pats. No complaints at all. Dealt a tough hand and overcame a ton.


That AP piece is one of the more embarrassing pieces of sports writing I've seen from them. Although it's not uncommon for the AP to have 20-somethings from the home area file these reports, so one has to expect a level of childishness, I suppose. Sports writing continues to become the refuge of the puerile in thought, education, and prose.

 

[bobesox]

Regarding TB and the long ball. Perhaps more the thin air than declining skills.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Terrance Knighton was the key difference in my opinion. TB facing an interior pass rush w/o blitzing is kryptonite. 

 
Totally agreed with this. There were some holes, but Knighton made big solo tackles and bottled up the running game while taking on multiple blockers in the passing game. If they could have just popped a few of those second down runs early it's a different game. 

 

[timelysarcasm]

So I can't say the team fucking embarrassed themselves because Drunken Charles Barkley would think less of me?

Just lose in the divisional round next time, guys.

 
 

I'm just sick of seemingly the SAME DAMN PROBLEMS sinking this team every year. No, filling your secondary with what feels like sub-6' DBs doesn't work. No, doing the same in the receiving corps doesn't work either.

 
This is all really dumb.
 
1) In the playoffs all that's left are good teams, so of course if you lose it's going to be to good players you hate from other teams. There's a reason we all hate the Ravens, Manning, etc.
 
2) Unless you win the Super Bowl, you will have something to complain about. And of all the things to complain about this season, the secondary is what you zero in on? Injuries screwed this team, period. It happens. Before the injuries, our defense was playing very well. Same with our offense once Gronk got back. The Patriots lost the most games to injury by their starters this year. They overachieved getting to this game. Losing still sucks, yes, but it's unreasonable to act like they choked or any such thing. This thing has been duct taped for awhile now. The deserve props for not lying down when no one would have blamed them if they did.
 
This defense is young and improving. I highly doubt the injuries will be as bad next year (knocking on a sequoia here), so hopefully we add a TE, a receiver pans out, and we'll be right back in it.
 
I'm bullish on Amendola, I really think he was hurt all year and sucked it up. He was incredible in St. Louis. We'll see, I suppose.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Especially once Talib went down, there just wasn't enough talent in the secondary to hold down the passing attack if Manning decided to be on.  Dennard, Ryan, and McCourty got victimized by superior execution.  

 

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Regarding TB and the long ball. Perhaps more the thin air than declining skills.

He was throwing in Denver, not on the moon. Those were just shitty throws. I'm sure he'd say the same.

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

I'm bullish on Amendola, I really think he was hurt all year and sucked it up. He was incredible in St. Louis. We'll see, I suppose.

I agree. I guarantee we hear that he's having surgery next week to repair a partially torn groin or something like that. He lost all his explosiveness after Week One. He doesn't look like the same guy that was in St Louis and it has to be related to that sports hernia or whatever it is.

 

[LogansDad]

I agree. I guarantee we hear that he's having surgery next week to repair a partially torn groin or something like that. He lost all his explosiveness after Week One. He doesn't look like the same guy that was in St Louis and it has to be related to that sports hernia or whatever it is.

SoxHop411 posted this in the Offseason Thread:

 
James Christensen ‏@NEPatriotsDraft3m
RT @PatriotsSB49: Would expect to hear about an Amendola surgery in the next few weeks. Did what he could with a detached groin muscle
 
 
How long has he been playing with a groin injury?

 
So, yeah.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

The Broncos just won a ton of one-on-one battles - both Thomases breaking tackles and getting their hands on balls; Moreno juking Hightower; Collins being great at times, but in the wrong spot a couple of times; Decker just beating Ryan across the field. 
 
And the kept Manning completely upright. He has to hit the dirt for a team to beat him. 

 

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

SoxHop411 posted this in the Offseason Thread:
 
So, yeah.

They won't re-attach his adductor at this point, it's been too long.

That being said, I'm sure this is an injury that has been "managed" and not recovered from during the season. Hopefully he gets back to baseline with a full offseason.

 

[Pete Williams]

I put 2 grand on the over.  Whoops.  The wife won't be happy when she finds out but as I loing as I stay drunk I don't care.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

It's jarring that Austin collie was more reliable/productive then amendola

 
Didn't he tear a groin muscle off the bone in week one?  I feel like people forgot that this guy basically sucked it up all year because the prognosis was that he wouldn't make it worse by playing.
 
*** - mentioned up thread yada yada

 

[Stitch01]

Can tell you wives don't like this

 

[twibnotes]

Was fine til I read this from the AP:

"But a loss is a loss and facts are facts. Bill Belichick is stuck on three titles and hasn't won one since the NFL busted him for the Spygate videotaping scandal."

I hate the idiotic media...

Great season for the Pats. No complaints at all. Dealt a tough hand and overcame a ton.


Agreed. The whole "no ring since spygate" thing is so dumb. The team has thrived, including on offense, since spygate. A bounce here or there (hello David tyree) and the pats have another ring or two. When the media ignores that fact, that show a total lack of awareness re the randomness and luck factor of sports.

 

[mulluysavage]

-Talib injured early in the game and it's a major factor- just like last year's champ game vs the Ravens.

- Josh: why the long balls early when we needed first downs and rhythm? I could see clearly that we couldn't go LaBeef up the middle, but those runs towards the edge with Ridley were working.. too little too late. I blame you.

- They had the horses and the Pats didn't. Remember, the Broncos offense broke the Pats 2007 records. The match ups were just too many in favor of Denver.

- The 2013 Pats achieved beyond their level for so long given the injuries. amazing job.

- Next year we bring Wilfork, Gronk, Mayo, Kelley, Vollmer, more draft picks, more brilliant trades. Look the eff out.

 

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

Whether Tom Brady is still a top ten QB is debatable
 

 

Ryan Mallet, is that you?

 

[8slim]

My God, there are a dozen or so posts in this thread that are utterly embarassing.

This was a remarkable season, and we lost to a better team today. That's it. Sometimes you just tip your cap.

We're really ripping draft strategy and TB now? Oy vey.

 

[SMU_Sox]

No goats. Down Mayo, Kelly, Wilfork, Talib on defense. No Hernandez all year. No Gronk. Amendola banged up. Dobson banged up. Thompkins out. Allen hurt. No volmer.

And we only lost by 10 in the AFC Championship game?

Congrats guys. It was a hell of a season.

 

[ivanvamp]

-Talib injured early in the game and it's a major factor- just like last year's champ game vs the Ravens.
- Josh: why the long balls early when we needed first downs and rhythm? I could see clearly that we couldn't go LaBeef up the middle, but those runs towards the edge with Ridley were working.. too little too late. I blame you.
- They had the horses and the Pats didn't. Remember, the Broncos offense broke the Pats 2007 records. The match ups were just too many in favor of Denver.
- The 2013 Pats achieved beyond their level for so long given the injuries. amazing job.
- Next year we bring Wilfork, Gronk, Mayo, Kelley, Vollmer, more draft picks, more brilliant trades. Look the eff out.

I think the matchups were ok if a healthy Talib could play. Without him, everyone had to kind of get bumped up the depth chart. And that made the matchups bad everywhere.

Just one of these years, I'd like to see the Patriots get to this point with their starters playing and healthy.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Pats lost the 3rd most games by starters in the NFL. That shit will regress in 2014.

 

[BucketOBalls]

I think the matchups were ok if a healthy Talib could play. Without him, everyone had to kind of get bumped up the depth chart. And that made the matchups bad everywhere.

Just one of these years, I'd like to see the Patriots get to this point with their starters playing and healthy.
 

 
I think the Pats can win another ring if they can manage to stay healthy long enough.  Not sure how possible that is however.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I think the matchups were ok if a healthy Talib could play. Without him, everyone had to kind of get bumped up the depth chart. And that made the matchups bad everywhere.

Just one of these years, I'd like to see the Patriots get to this point with their starters playing and healthy.

 
Manning had plenty of time to make selections off the menu. Matchups don't mean much without the front 7 getting significant pressure up the middle on the QB. Been waiting years to see a Pats D capable of doing that.

 

[tims4wins]

5 hours later, I'm mainly left disappointed that the Pats didn't even make it remotely difficult for Denver today on either side of the ball. This was maybe an easier win for Denver than when Indy beat the Bears in the Super Bowl. Just no resistance from the Pats whatsoever. I guess Denver has to get the bulk of the credit for that. Just disappointed that the Pats were less competitive than in any other game this season. And lest this be read differently, I don't mean they didn't fight or compete or play hard. I just mean they were outclassed all the way around.

 

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

5 hours later, I'm mainly left disappointed that the Pats didn't even make it remotely difficult for Denver today on either side of the ball. This was maybe an easier win for Denver than when Indy beat the Bears in the Super Bowl. Just no resistance from the Pats whatsoever. I guess Denver has to get the bulk of the credit for that. Just disappointed that the Pats were less competitive than in any other game this season. And lest this be read differently, I don't mean they didn't fight or compete or play hard. I just mean they were outclassed all the way around.

Agreed.  I'm just left with an empty feeling after this one, like there was no chance from the get-go.  They were never really in the game, never really had any rhythm - just disappointing.   Given the injuries and the disparity in the overall talent levels, it seemed like EVERYTHING would have had to go their way, and really, not much did.
 
Hell of a season, though.  

 

[Stitch01]

Just feels sort of weird, haven't had a game where the Pats were that outclassed in like four years. Makes it easier to swallow in some ways, but a bigger leap needed next year

 

[Section15Box113]

Just feels sort of weird, haven't had a game where the Pats were that outclassed in like four years. Makes it easier to swallow in some ways, but a bigger leap needed next year

 
Agree on both counts.
 
Consolation is that part of that leap will come from health, as SSF has noted. 
 
Another part should come from continued development from the young WRs, DBs and Collins.  
 
Work in added depth on both lines, another TE that can catch, and a WR with size, and we're right back in the mix again in 2014-15.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Winning in this league is a lot about getting the breaks and luck as well as talent and preparation.
Losing Gronk and Talib in key situations in the past few years has cost us big time.
Losing so many key players this year was unfortunate and unlucky.
 
For example ...Denver lost its key tight end in the regular season for a game against us.
They lost that regular season game to us and it didn't even cost them the best record in the AFC.
 
We lost Gronk for the rest of the season and while we won more games we never had an answer for lack of consistent touchdowns in the red zone. 
With a hobbled Amendola...and a new and young wide receiver corps losing Hernandez and Gronk for the season was a dagger. 
 
Sometimes these things happen...but it would sure be nice if at the end of the season next year we were both lucky and reasonably healthy.

 

[twibnotes]

Winning in this league is a lot about getting the breaks and luck as well as talent and preparation.
Losing Gronk and Talib in key situations in the past few years has cost us big time.
Losing so many key players this year was unfortunate and unlucky.

For example ...Denver lost its key tight end in the regular season for a game against us.
They lost that regular season game to us and it didn't even cost them the best record in the AFC.

We lost Gronk for the rest of the season and while we won more games we never had an answer for lack of consistent touchdowns in the red zone.
With a hobbled Amendola...and a new and young wide receiver corps losing Hernandez and Gronk for the season was a dagger.

Sometimes these things happen...but it would sure be nice if at the end of the season next year we were both lucky and reasonably healthy.


For all the breaks the pats got from 01 to 04, it sure seems like the pendulum has swung far the other way. Injuries galore (seems like a healthy gronk get us another ring in '10), David tyree play etc

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

For all the breaks the pats got from 01 to 04, it sure seems like the pendulum has swung far the other way. Injuries galore (seems like a healthy gronk get us another ring in '10), David tyree play etc

60 degrees ...great weather and no snow in Denver in January! I've been in a blizzard there in October.
Also don't underestimate how unlucky it was that we had to play this very good team three times this year...twice in their house.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Troy Brown on CSNNE with a good point about BB's coaching job this season, "A team with 17 rookies on the roster playing in the AFC Championship Game."

 

[twibnotes]

Troy Brown on CSNNE with a good point about BB's coaching job this season, "A team with 17 rookies on the roster playing in the AFC Championship Game."


If only #12 were a few years younger.

 

[serotonin]

This team looked like it would be fortunate to even sniff the playoffs early in the season, so I have a hard time complaining about making it to the AFCCG and technically being "in it" until the failed 2pt conversion (obviously it was still a depressing way to end the season). Too many missed opportunities and Denver just played really well.  According to Mike Reiss, the Pats gave up 507 yards, the most a Belichick-led team has ever surrendered.  Some of that is on the Patriots, of course, but Manning was impeccable (particularly after Talib got hurt) and the Broncos were better on both lines.  With all of the injuries to vets, not to mention injuries to the new WRs that Brady was trying to mesh with, this was still one of the most enjoyable seasons that I can recall.
 
Improve both of the lines, find another TE who can catch the ball, avoid a ludicrous number of injuries to key players and they should have little trouble being competitive again next year.  

 

[Stitch01]

For all the breaks the pats got from 01 to 04, it sure seems like the pendulum has swung far the other way. Injuries galore (seems like a healthy gronk get us another ring in '10), David tyree play etc

It had from 07-12 that's for sure. Crazy that team never won one and the 01 and 03 teams both did

 

[BucketOBalls]

This team looked like it would be fortunate to even sniff the playoffs early in the season, so I have a hard time complaining about making it to the AFCCG and technically being "in it" until the failed 2pt conversion (obviously it was still a depressing way to end the season). Too many missed opportunities and Denver just played really well.  According to Mike Reiss, the Pats gave up 507 yards, the most a Belichick-led team has ever surrendered.  Some of that is on the Patriots, of course, but Manning was impeccable (particularly after Talib got hurt) and the Broncos were better on both lines.  With all of the injuries to vets, not to mention injuries to the new WRs that Brady was trying to mesh with, this was still one of the most enjoyable seasons that I can recall.
 
Improve both of the lines, find another TE who can catch the ball, avoid a ludicrous number of injuries to key players and they should have little trouble being competitive again next year.  

 
I think to go all the way they just need better line play. Pretty much every season ending loss has been marked by them losing badly in the trenches. I'm not sure they can retool them fast enough however.  The early teams were pretty much competative against anyone, no matter how good they were.  Unfortunatly, I think they need to get back to that level, but I'm not sure it's possible in a reasonable amount of time.
 

 

[j44thor]

Pats lost the 3rd most games by starters in the NFL. That shit will regress in 2014.

Will it though? This seems to be the story more often than not. I don't know if there is legit blame to go around or if ne just had the worst luck when it comes to injuries but look at the teams left, SEA and SF are missing at most 1-2 key players and DEN had injuries but still have their top 7 weapons on offense. At what point do we stop blaming luck? Seems like it hasn't been on our side since 2007 as far as injuries go.

 

[BucketOBalls]

Will it though? This seems to be the story more often than not. I don't know if there is legit blame to go around or if ne just had the worst luck when it comes to injuries but look at the teams left, SEA and SF are missing at most 1-2 key players and DEN had injuries but still have their top 7 weapons on offense. At what point do we stop blaming luck? Seems like it hasn't been on our side since 2007 as far as injuries go.

 
I don't know how you would check, but my theory is BB has been coaching mediorce talents up to a degree. Basicly, they havn't had the draft position to get players with both elite talent and health. Again, I'm not sure how you would check something like that.  And it's hard to draft for durability. (and healthy players who are good but not great probably wouldn't produce an elite team either). 

 

[lexrageorge]

Will it though? This seems to be the story more often than not. I don't know if there is legit blame to go around or if ne just had the worst luck when it comes to injuries but look at the teams left, SEA and SF are missing at most 1-2 key players and DEN had injuries but still have their top 7 weapons on offense. At what point do we stop blaming luck? Seems like it hasn't been on our side since 2007 as far as injuries go.

In today's NFL, the margin of error for injuries is fairly small.  If the Pats had one or 2 of their defensive starters healthy, perhaps they stop Manning on 1 or 2 of those 3rd down plays, which is perhaps enough to get Brady a couple of more chances to lead a scoring drive.  
 
As noted, most in season injuries are not forseeable.  It's certainly not possible for the Patriots to have assumed when they drafted Mayo and Wilfork that they would both miss a season one day.  Or that Talib would get flattened by Welker in an illegal pick play.  You try to fill that with depth, but when you're always picking at the bottom of the draft rounds, there's only so much depth to go around. 

 

[Leather]

The lack of top-shelf talent is, in large part, because the team is so successful every year.  They almost never get a top draft pick, unlike every other team that has a down-cycle every few years that allows it, assuming they have other parts in place, to re-stock the shelf and complement whatever key players it has on its roster. 
 
If this team had drafted a premium DT and a premium G, or WR, or Safety, over the past five years, they'd be better equipped in the playoffs.
 
It's incredibly frustrating that their own success contributes to their own limitations.
 
People complain about Belichick's drafting, but when you have picks in the 25-31 range every fucking year, it's a hell of a lot harder to get guys that can make meaningful contributions than when you're drafting in the top-10 one year, then the top 15 the next, before you get over the hump for a year or two and take shots at the post-season.  Look at Pittsburgh, Green Bay, New York, etc...

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

I remember Bill mentioning injuries a few weeks ago in conjunction with new practice rules and off season conditioning. Perhaps a good topic to explore though I have a hard time thinking either Talib's or Gronk's injury would have played out any differently.