Terry Coming Up Rozes

BaseballJones

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The issue with Rozier isn't whether the Celtics (or Celtics' fans) want to keep him. I cannot fathom anyone at this point not wanting to keep Rozier. The problem is one of economics. I think it's clear that there's just no way to keep him, presuming his value just keeps going up up up. He's demonstrated to be a damned good NBA player, period. So the question is, what to do with him, given that he'll be a free agent after 2019?

1. Keep him and bring him off the bench either to run alongside Kyrie, or to give Kyrie rest. Or, as very good Kyrie insurance in case Irving's recovery takes longer or whatever. Rozier is the kind of guy you love having as a backup because you know he can thrive either as a backup or as a starter. Doing this may maximize your championship chances in 2018-19, but then the risk is you lose him for nothing.

2. Trade Rozier this offseason. I would bet his value will be at its peak this offseason, following what has been a breakout playoff run. Presumably, if Kyrie comes back, he swallows up the most minutes, and Jaylen Brown isn't going anywhere, so Rozier's playing time will be cut dramatically next year (if everyone stays healthy). So he's simply not going to put up the same numbers. Moreover, he'll still have a year of control for the team picking him up, and that team will be able to offer him more than competing teams when he hits free agency after 2019.

3. Trade Kyrie instead. I floated this as something the Celtics at least have to be considering. I see it as a vanishingly small likelihood, but they have to have at least discussed it. They lose the better player, but they'd get more back in return if they go this route.

One thing to keep in mind: Maybe if he plays in a sub role in 2018-19 all year and sees his stats diminish, that will lessen what he can get on the open market. Probably not, because everyone has seen what he's capable of doing, but still, it's possible.

Every one of the options listed above has its own merits. Gut feeling says Danny holds on to him for 2018-19, tries to offer him an extension that the Celtics can manage, but Rozier declines and hits free agency, but Danny is willing to take that risk because he wants Rozier for the 2018-19 championship run he hopes to make.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Supposedly from Treehouse Brewery

Edit: Can't get the picture uploaded, but its the canning date on the bottom of the can and it says...

"Playoff Terry is very scary!"
 

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The issue with Rozier isn't whether the Celtics (or Celtics' fans) want to keep him. I cannot fathom anyone at this point not wanting to keep Rozier. The problem is one of economics. I think it's clear that there's just no way to keep him, presuming his value just keeps going up up up. He's demonstrated to be a damned good NBA player, period. So the question is, what to do with him, given that he'll be a free agent after 2019?

1. Keep him and bring him off the bench either to run alongside Kyrie, or to give Kyrie rest. Or, as very good Kyrie insurance in case Irving's recovery takes longer or whatever. Rozier is the kind of guy you love having as a backup because you know he can thrive either as a backup or as a starter. Doing this may maximize your championship chances in 2018-19, but then the risk is you lose him for nothing.

2. Trade Rozier this offseason. I would bet his value will be at its peak this offseason, following what has been a breakout playoff run. Presumably, if Kyrie comes back, he swallows up the most minutes, and Jaylen Brown isn't going anywhere, so Rozier's playing time will be cut dramatically next year (if everyone stays healthy). So he's simply not going to put up the same numbers. Moreover, he'll still have a year of control for the team picking him up, and that team will be able to offer him more than competing teams when he hits free agency after 2019.

3. Trade Kyrie instead. I floated this as something the Celtics at least have to be considering. I see it as a vanishingly small likelihood, but they have to have at least discussed it. They lose the better player, but they'd get more back in return if they go this route.

One thing to keep in mind: Maybe if he plays in a sub role in 2018-19 all year and sees his stats diminish, that will lessen what he can get on the open market. Probably not, because everyone has seen what he's capable of doing, but still, it's possible.

Every one of the options listed above has its own merits. Gut feeling says Danny holds on to him for 2018-19, tries to offer him an extension that the Celtics can manage, but Rozier declines and hits free agency, but Danny is willing to take that risk because he wants Rozier for the 2018-19 championship run he hopes to make.
Terry is basically Jimmy G redux, with Kyrie playing the role of TB12.
 

NoXInNixon

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I don’t think there is a single person who wants to trade him but a decision is looming for financial reasons. I think there is a real argument to be made for keeping him through next summer but his value will also be at its highest this summer so Ainge may want to cash in. As great as Rozier has been, when Kyrie and Hayward return, his potential impact will be marginalized.
Whereas the only piece this team is missing right now is a quality defensive big. If Rozier can be part of a deal that gets Mo Bamba, I would do it. Bamba looks to me like a future DPOY, and is the perfect counter to Embiid and Simmons, who we're going to have to deal with a lot over the next five years.
 

BigSoxFan

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Whereas the only piece this team is missing right now is a quality defensive big. If Rozier can be part of a deal that gets Mo Bamba, I would do it. Bamba looks to me like a future DPOY, and is the perfect counter to Embiid and Simmons, who we're going to have to deal with a lot over the next five years.
Agreed. Bamba would be a great piece for this team and exactly what they need. I remain skeptical that Rozier could get us that high into the lottery though but perhaps possible if we sweeten with another pick, like Sac or Mem.
 

lovegtm

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Agreed. Bamba would be a great piece for this team and exactly what they need. I remain skeptical that Rozier could get us that high into the lottery though but perhaps possible if we sweeten with another pick, like Sac or Mem.
Moving into the top 5 would be a better return for Terry Rozier than (probably) the Cavs got for Kyrie Irving...
 

ALiveH

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The Kyrie player option is definitely a consideration. Maybe they keep Terry around and make a decision later who is the PG of the future. It's not a guarantee they can extend Kyrie or even that Kyrie's body will hold up, or maybe Terry is better in a couple years? First class problems...
 

Eddie Jurak

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Kyrie has a player option in the summer of 2019, when TR will be a RFA. It's probably not likely, but what if Kyrie opts out and signs elsewhere? Will this be a consideration this summer if there are offers for Rozier? Or will the Celtics have a commitment in hand from Irving that he isn't going anywhere, and will continue to be the franchise guy in Boston?
I think it is a virtual certainty that Kyrie opts out, but he will stay in Bostonnif the Celtics offer him max money. (Someone will offer the max). The only way that changes is if the knee is a serious issue during next season.

Terry is basically Jimmy G redux, with Kyrie playing the role of TB12.
No, because Kyrie is 27 and Terry has a role on the team even if Kyrie is healthy and playing.
 

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The realistic trading partner this offseason for Rozier is Phoenix (assuming a chalk lottery) who can give #16 and one of Bender/Chriss, likely with the Celtics sending one of the non-Kings/Grizzlies picks along with Rozier. The Suns can pick Ayton, get a PG to pair with Booker longterm and show Booker they're committed to improving heading into his extension discussions.

Outside of something approximating that return (decent pick + high upside big or better), I think Ainge rolls with Rozier to start the season and reassesses at the deadline.
 

Eddie Jurak

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A deadline deal involving a 6th man of the year candidate playing on a title contender seems unlikely.

My only real reservation is that, lineup wise, it feels like too much of a step back towards a small guard heavy rotation.
 

DannyDarwinism

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In addition to his scoring and shooting, Rozier currently has 62 assists to 13 turnovers in the postseason. Scary Terry on a cheap contract next year is worth a good deal for a team with championship aspirations. Ainge and Stevens certainly seem to prefer smart, coachable guys who have the strength to play physical defense, which would make me surprised if they’re interested in Chriss or Bender, respectively.

I’m just in awe of what Rozier’s doing compared to where he was at in his first two years. Can’t believe it’s the same dude. When it comes to identifying and developing young talent, it’s In Danny and Brad We Trust for the foreseeable future.
 

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A deadline deal involving a 6th man of the year candidate playing on a title contender seems unlikely.

My only real reservation is that, lineup wise, it feels like too much of a step back towards a small guard heavy rotation.
I also don't understand a deadline deal. If you're trading him at the deadline it's to a team that thinks he will push them over the top for a run. Of course the Celtics are trying to win it all next year, so why give up a huge asset and then put him on a contender, which is clearly the opposite of what we'd try to do strategically. Trading him to the Suns or a similar team this off season makes far more sense. I'd actually be pretty surprised if they traded him during the season, barring some chemistry issue as a result of wanting more minutes during a RFA campaign.
 

TripleOT

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The realistic trading partner this offseason for Rozier is Phoenix (assuming a chalk lottery) who can give #16 and one of Bender/Chriss, likely with the Celtics sending one of the non-Kings/Grizzlies picks along with Rozier. The Suns can pick Ayton, get a PG to pair with Booker longterm and show Booker they're committed to improving heading into his extension discussions.

Outside of something approximating that return (decent pick + high upside big or better), I think Ainge rolls with Rozier to start the season and reassesses at the deadline.
You don't see Orlando as a trading partner. They desperately need a franchise PG.

Rozier and the Memphis pick plus the Celtics 2018 pick, or Rozier and the Sacto pick plus the Celtics 2018 pick for the 5th, which the Cs could use on Bamba, fills needs for both teams.
 

BigSoxFan

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The realistic trading partner this offseason for Rozier is Phoenix (assuming a chalk lottery) who can give #16 and one of Bender/Chriss, likely with the Celtics sending one of the non-Kings/Grizzlies picks along with Rozier. The Suns can pick Ayton, get a PG to pair with Booker longterm and show Booker they're committed to improving heading into his extension discussions.

Outside of something approximating that return (decent pick + high upside big or better), I think Ainge rolls with Rozier to start the season and reassesses at the deadline.
Do we think these 2 front offices will do business with each other given the Josh Jackson saltiness? Assuming that’s a nothingburger, I do think that 16/Bender for Rozier/27 seems like a potential fit. Suns get their PG of the future and a first and Celtics get a young big who’s still only 20 years-old to groom for the 2nd unit and a mid-round pick that could be use to find Rozier’s replacement. Suns would be getting the best player and Celtics would be getting a couple years to evaluate a guy they were linked to a couple years ago.
 

Manzivino

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A deadline deal involving a 6th man of the year candidate playing on a title contender seems unlikely.

My only real reservation is that, lineup wise, it feels like too much of a step back towards a small guard heavy rotation.
Well they'd primarily be reassessing whether Kyrie's knee is 100% and what Rozier's market is going to be.

Kyrie-Rozier were a net positive when played together this year (+1.8 net rating per 100), I think they'll be fine for a few minutes per game.

You don't see Orlando as a trading partner. They desperately need a franchise PG.

Rozier and the Memphis pick plus the Celtics 2018 pick, or Rozier and the Sacto pick plus the Celtics 2018 pick for the 5th, which the Cs could use on Bamba, fills needs for both teams.
Orlando needs a point guard but I don't think their timeline makes sense for them to give up a top 5 pick in a loaded draft for Rozier, even if they get additional futures; especially when those futures have a lot of uncertainty around them. Why would Orlando trade for Rozier now to be terrible next year anyway when they can just be terrible on their own and give him an offersheet next offseason that the Celtics can't match?

I keep beating this drum, as valuable of an asset as it is, it is going to be incredibly hard to get full value for the Kings pick in a trade before the 2019 draft, especially with the flattened lottery odds and the Kings figuring to be terrible. Few if any GMs are going to trade a high pick in exchange for a key piece with even a 14% chance that the return is the Sixers' 2019 first. Same with the Memphis pick - if they blow it up, that pick can roll until 2021, by which time the GM that trades for it is probably gone. We saw this with the Nets picks and those were unprotected, the Sac/Memphis picks are going to be even worse.

Do we think these 2 front offices will do business with each other given the Josh Jackson saltiness? Assuming that’s a nothingburger, I do think that 16/Bender for Rozier/27 seems like a potential fit. Suns get their PG of the future and a first and Celtics get a young big who’s still only 20 years-old to groom for the 2nd unit and a mid-round pick that could be use to find Rozier’s replacement. Suns would be getting the best player and Celtics would be getting a couple years to evaluate a guy they were linked to a couple years ago.
Ainge's MO has been defined by not being emotional, I don't think he's to refuse to do business with the Suns if it's what's best for the team. Doubly so since they probably had no intention of drafting Jackson, hit a HR with Tatum and picked up the Kings pick as the Gronk spike.
 

DJnVa

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You don't see Orlando as a trading partner. They desperately need a franchise PG.

Rozier and the Memphis pick plus the Celtics 2018 pick, or Rozier and the Sacto pick plus the Celtics 2018 pick for the 5th, which the Cs could use on Bamba, fills needs for both teams.
It all sounds nice, but we don't know that Orlando has the 5th pick yet. Who actually ends up where is a rather important consideration.
 

BigSoxFan

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As I said in the post you were responding to, he could get a lot better.
Maybe but with his payday getting closer, his trade value won’t be going up after this summer, which is my point. And he’ll be back in a bench role next year assuming Kyrie is healthy.
 

amarshal2

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Maybe but with his payday getting closer, his trade value won’t be going up after this summer, which is my point. And he’ll be back in a bench role next year assuming Kyrie is healthy.
Depends how teams view the risk/reward. Some teams could credibly wonder if he can really maintain this level of play and then the extra year isn’t worth much. But if his efficiency improves off the bench next year and he gets lots of buzz as 6th man, now you have GMs feeling confident they’d be trading for a very good player.
 

MillarTime

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As others have said, given:

(1) the leap that Rozier has made
(2) AND the team will have title aspirations for the 2018-2019 season
(3) AND Kyrie's injury concerns
(4) AND Kyrie's contract situation

I don't see how you can trade Terry. Give him plenty of run off the bench next year to keep Kyrie's minutes in check and decide between them after the year is over...
 

Cesar Crespo

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As I said in the post you were responding to, he could get a lot better.
It's possible but he's already 24. Players usually are what they are by 25, and then make modest improvements from there on out. There aren't very many players who became superstars after age 25. Jimmy Butler comes to mind.

Thing with Rozier, all he has to do is improve on one skill to become a lot better and that's finishing. Even as an average finisher, he probably makes a few all star teams.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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A deadline deal involving a 6th man of the year candidate playing on a title contender seems unlikely.

My only real reservation is that, lineup wise, it feels like too much of a step back towards a small guard heavy rotation.
You can limit the on-court time of a Kyrie/Rozier pairing given that the other 4 non-Kyrie starters are going to be end-game players in pretty much any situation. One of the biggest problems with the IT/Bradley pairing was that, in addition to being too small, the rest of the lineup was usually undersized and/or underathletic too. Lots of time with Smart at the 3, Crowder at the 4, for example, because they only had two non-rookie wings in Crowder and Green. Those issues trickled down in both directions, and I just don't see the same kind of problems moving forward.

Also, generally, I think the Celtics are going to be so efficient offensively next season that 10-15 minutes of Kyrie/Rozier isn't going to be a big deal. And the defense should get some ancillary benefit of that efficiency, a la the Patriots forcing teams into uncomfortable situations on offense.

The realistic trading partner this offseason for Rozier is Phoenix (assuming a chalk lottery) who can give #16 and one of Bender/Chriss, likely with the Celtics sending one of the non-Kings/Grizzlies picks along with Rozier. The Suns can pick Ayton, get a PG to pair with Booker longterm and show Booker they're committed to improving heading into his extension discussions.

Outside of something approximating that return (decent pick + high upside big or better), I think Ainge rolls with Rozier to start the season and reassesses at the deadline.
I think that's the right style of deal you'd be looking at, although I don't like either of those particular players.
 

nighthob

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Orlando needs a point guard but I don't think their timeline makes sense for them to give up a top 5 pick in a loaded draft for Rozier, even if they get additional futures; especially when those futures have a lot of uncertainty around them. Why would Orlando trade for Rozier now to be terrible next year anyway when they can just be terrible on their own and give him an offersheet next offseason that the Celtics can't match?
Because in the summer of '19 there will be other suitors for Rozier's services meaning that the Magic would likely need to overpay for Rozier to get him to choose to play for them. There's value in having them on their roster this summer when they can work on a market rate extension that pre-empts any bidding war.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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There should be a “NOT OUR MONEY” chant in the Garden every time either Rozier or Smart are at the FT line.
 

pjheff

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There should be a “NOT OUR MONEY” chant in the Garden every time either Rozier or Smart are at the FT line.
Wyc bought the team for $360M in 2002. Forbes currently has the team valued at $2.2B, and one can imagine that figure would only go up with a few more banners.
 

benhogan

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We have plenty of draft picks over the next few seasons, a mid-first won't move the needle. Keep Terry, see how next season plays out, there is always plenty of minutes for efficient players. In addition to that,
-maybe Rozier improves more next season. Or
-Kyrie doesn't come back fully healthy till later in the season. Or
-Kyrie gets re-injured. Or
-Kyrie is limited in the minutes he can play. Or
-other key players get injured. Or
-the outside chance Kyrie doesn't want to re-sign here. Or
-Terry develops into a better player than Kyrie and is a better fit going forward

Celtics will be contending for a title in 2019, the optionality here outweighs a mid-first. Plus Danny doesn't need to trade experienced, high-end talent on a short, cheap deal since he has already stockpiled future first round picks.
 

tbrown_01923

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C's would need to have a plan to turn a mid-1st-round pick in the upcoming into something that impacts the current window or extends it. Waiting 3-4 years on a rookie doesn't do that (plus if there is a talent explosion in year 4 C's likely wouldn't have cap to sign him).

So either
  1. a package of picks for an impact vet (complimentary big?) or
  2. a high upside draft and stash that can grow over sees for at least 2 seasons.
But other than that how does a mid-1st help short term title contention?
 

Eddie Jurak

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C's would need to have a plan to turn a mid-1st-round pick in the upcoming into something that impacts the current window or extends it. Waiting 3-4 years on a rookie doesn't do that (plus if there is a talent explosion in year 4 C's likely wouldn't have cap to sign him).

So either
  1. a package of picks for an impact vet (complimentary big?) or
  2. a high upside draft and stash that can grow over sees for at least 2 seasons.
But other than that how does a mid-1st help short term title contention?
If a mid first is all Rozier is worth, then you keep him for one more year without second thought.
 

lexrageorge

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Rozier is likely to be more valuable to the team in 2019 than a mid-first. If the Celtics make the Finals in 2019, I'm OK with the tradeoff of a Rozier potentially walking that summer. And, if Rozier is a big part of the team's success in 2019, then as an RFA, the Celtics could likely extend.
 

JakeRae

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The "team X could just pay him in a year" argument ignores how the NBA cap works. Being a RFA means that they can pay him even if they are capped out. Take Orlando as an example. Let's say they want to keep Aaron Gordon and Vucevic long term and Biyombo doesn't opt out of the dramatic overpay he's getting. Orlando doesn't have much, if any, cap space next year in this scenario. They don't need it if they already have Rozier in house but they would to sign him from Boston.
 

Manzivino

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They have 50+ million in practical cap space for 2019, Gordon can only make so much. The reverse assumption, that he’ll auto extend if they trade for him, isn’t necessarily true. Rozier could decide the organization is a dumpster fire, play 2019 on the QO and leave in UFA in 2020.

Edit: I missed them re-signing Vucevic in your hypothetical. Why would they do that? Do they want to keep their lottery core together so bad they’ll pay Vucevic who will be into his mid-thirties while they don’t sniff competitive basketball? They’d be better off trading him for futures while they wait to clear the insanity off their cap.
 
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lovegtm

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Wyc bought the team for $360M in 2002. Forbes currently has the team valued at $2.2B, and one can imagine that figure would only go up with a few more banners.
As I often note in these situations, cash flow and net worth are very, very different things. Particularly with assets like this that are risky or difficult to finance against, and whose value is usually only realized at the time of sale.
 

amarshal2

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It's possible but he's already 24. Players usually are what they are by 25, and then make modest improvements from there on out. There aren't very many players who became superstars after age 25. Jimmy Butler comes to mind.

Thing with Rozier, all he has to do is improve on one skill to become a lot better and that's finishing. Even as an average finisher, he probably makes a few all star teams.
He’s 24.1. Next year is his age 24 season for 90% of the season. Next year is also his 4th year in the NBA. From what people around here say about the age when the improvement rate levels off (25) and years of experience when it levels off (5th year) it’s sure seems like it’s disingenuous to say he’s done with big improvements at the beginning of age 24 and the end of his third year.

But I’ve never seen these studies so I’m just quoting others.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Man, if they can keep Smart and Rozier next year and run out a team of Kyrie, GH, Al, Brown, Tatum, Smart, Rozier, Theis, and Ojeleye, they can play everyone 20 minutes and go 82-0.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He’s 24.1. Next year is his age 24 season for 90% of the season. Next year is also his 4th year in the NBA. From what people around here say about the age when the improvement rate levels off (25) and years of experience when it levels off (5th year) it’s sure seems like it’s disingenuous to say he’s done with big improvements at the beginning of age 24 and the end of his third year.

But I’ve never seen these studies so I’m just quoting others.

I don't disagree. I was just pointing out the trend. I do think this off season is his last of significant development, though.
 

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Also, generally, I think the Celtics are going to be so efficient offensively next season that 10-15 minutes of Kyrie/Rozier isn't going to be a big deal. And the defense should get some ancillary benefit of that efficiency, a la the Patriots forcing teams into uncomfortable situations on offense.
Like the back of a Volkswagon?
 

Eddie Jurak

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Guys who have played well above themselves on Brad Stevens' Celtic teams:
Kyrie Irving, Greg Monroe (small sample), Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, Tyler Zeller, Jae Crowder, IT, Brandon Bass, Jordan Crawford, Jared Sullinger

Guys who haven't:
Rajon Rondo, Al Horford, Marcus Morris, Aron Baynes, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson, Shane Larkin, Jonas Jerebko, Gerald Green, David Lee, Jeff Green, Kris Humphries, Courtney Lee

It occurs to me that the questions about Rozier (How good is he? What is his trade value around the league?) depend on which of these 2 groups he falls into.
 

amarshal2

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Nobody else knows what group he’s in either. It’s not a binary choice like that. There might be a general “adjust for potential brad effect” discount.
 

tbrown_01923

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Rozier is likely to be more valuable to the team in 2019 than a mid-first. If the Celtics make the Finals in 2019, I'm OK with the tradeoff of a Rozier potentially walking that summer. And, if Rozier is a big part of the team's success in 2019, then as an RFA, the Celtics could likely extend.
Thanks - that was my point. Hopefully there is someone in the front office doing some expected war of pick x...z for 4 years vs expected war of 2019 t-roze plus the residual RFA value (sign, sign & trade - is that still allowed?).
 

lovegtm

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Nobody else knows what group he’s in either. It’s not a binary choice like that. There might be a general “adjust for potential brad effect” discount.
Other teams definitely should be discounting for Brad at this point. However, I think Rozier is a bit easier to project outside of the Celtics, since they don't do much schematically to accomodate him specifically, he's versatile defensively, and his 3-point shot seems real. I think Smart also would be roughly the same guy on a lot of teams.
 

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I don't know why people keep assuming all they can get is a mid-first in these scenarios.