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Tennis 2018

Discussion in 'General Sports' started by Infield Infidel, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. Morgan's Magic Snowplow

    Morgan's Magic Snowplow Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    16,204
    Djokovic really does belong right there in the conversation regarding best players of all time - he is just such a phenomenal player. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he ends up surpassing or equalling Nadal in terms of majors won and with a more well rounded game and major resume you'd have to give him the nod. Passing Federer would be a much taller order.
     
  2. Moonlight Graham

    Moonlight Graham lurker

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    20
  3. mr_smith02

    mr_smith02 Member SoSH Member

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    Had Osaka behaved as Serena did no one would have protested her being assessed a penalty point or a game. It was a bad night for tennis...a 20 year old dominating a legend in the Finals should have been the story. Serena wasn't going to have that.
     
  4. BigMike

    BigMike Dope Dope

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    21,300
    It just also shows how ridiculous the length of greatness for their careers has been

    The last 15 years the Grand slam winners have been
    Federer 19
    Nadal 17
    Djokovic 14
    Murray 3
    Wawrinka 3
    Del Potro
    Cilic
    Marat Safin
    Gaston Gaudio

    Grand slam winners by decade
    1970s 16
    1980s 12
    1990s 16
    2000s 15
    2010s 6

    The 2010s are the first decade since the 1960s when more than one player has won more than 10 GS titles in the decade (Djoker 13, Nadal 11)
     
  5. tbrep

    tbrep Member SoSH Member

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    624
    Starting from Federer’s first GS title, the big 3 have won 51 of the 62 grand slams played. Amazing!
     
  6. BigMike

    BigMike Dope Dope

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    21,300
    As of 9/28/18 there will be no men's GS winners under the age of 30. How amazing is this? When Jimmy Connors at 21 won the Australian Open in 1974, Stan Smith was the youngest active GS champion at a just turned 28.

    Since Jimmy Connors won, the Oldest a Youngest Active GS champion has been was Michael Chang at Age 24 years 108 days, when he ceded the crown to Yvgeny Kavelnikov in 1996. Cilic will be more than 6 years older than that when the next GS title is awarded

    By the way, Chang holds the record for longest tenure as youngest active GS champion, as he held the title for 7 years. Del Potro held the title for 5 years. Cilic has now locked down 4 years (he beats Delpo by 5 days)

    Some more goodies if you look at the start of the modern era (I kind of view it as Connors, as before him you had a bunch of older leftover guys from a very different sport) , Here is the list of oldest Champions
    (I may have missed a 30 year old along the way)

    Federer Aussie 2018 36.5
    Federer Wimbledon 2017 36
    Federer Aussie 2017 35.5
    Agassi Aussie 2003 32.75
    Nadal French 2017 32
    Wawrinka US 2016 31.5
    Djoker US 2018 31.25
    Nadal US 2017 31.2
    Djoker Wimb 2018 31
    Samprass US 2002 31
    Connors US 1983 31
    Federer Wimb 2012 30.9
    Nadal French 2017 30.9
    Agassi Aussie 2001 30.75
    Gomez French 1990 30.3
    Wawrinka French 2015 30.25
    Kordra Aussie 1998 30
     
  7. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    This surprised me a bit, arbitrary starting point to when Djokovic really broke through, but eight years is a long time:

    Grand Slam titles since 2011:

    Djokovic 13
    Nadal 8
    Federer 4
    Murray 3
    Wawrinka 3
    Cilic 1
     
  8. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Shame for Djokovic because tennis is such a zero sum game, Federer is one of the most popular athletes of all time, and Nadal not too far behind, that he’s been forced into a quasi-villain role. He has the most gregarious personality of the three, and seems like he’s dying to be loved, but he’s almost always being rooted against.
     
  9. splendid splinter

    splendid splinter Member SoSH Member

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    948
    Not really, no. It did prompt me to google Ramos a bit and it seems like he’s a prickly asshole with an over-inflated sense of his importance. He docked Nadal points for slow play and got on him about...COACHING...at the French last year. He hit Murray with a penalty at the 2016 Olympics because he thought he called him “stupid”.

    If you want to call Ramos out for being an officious dick, fine. But stop the narrative about this being sexism absent some actual evidence. And evidence isn’t a) Serena is a woman, b) there’s sexism in tennis and society and c) some other guy let Ilie Nastase be an asshole to him 30 years ago.

    Edit: And c’mon, she didn’t just call him “a thief” in some offhand comment. She wouldn’t let the coaching infraction go for like 6 GAMES, demanding an apology, demanding that he ANNOUNCE TO THE CROWD that she didn’t cheat. She lost her shit and just won’t admit it.
     
    #509 splendid splinter, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  10. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    5,564
  11. lars10

    lars10 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Also...she in fact was coached. It's not often called, but her being so adamant about something that everyone could actually see happened is another problem.
     
  12. Matty005

    Matty005 Member SoSH Member

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    At the time she probably didn’t know he was doing it. She doesn’t use coaching even when it’s permitted.

    And yes, it’s a rule. Just like the George Brett pine tar rule. Again, argue all you want about rules being enforced because they are rules. Then we all should be fine with the penalty of lost draft picks and Brady being suspended 4 games. Because, like you said, it’s a rule.
     
  13. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    5,564
    If coaching is against the rules, the penalty should be on the coaches, not the players. By definition, they're the ones committing the offense. Kick them out of the stadium or something.
     
  14. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    1,445
    Of course, coaching didn’t cost her a game, or even a point. It’s pretty easy to play two sets without incurring two more code violations. Unfortunately, she couldn’t do that.
     
  15. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    His mannerisms on court make him seem like a bit of a dick.

    As soon as the match is over, he's hilarious and very personable, but I've instinctually disliked him since he arrived.

    I've been more sympathetic to Andy Murray, who is grouchy during play, but seems to loathe himself and his own inadequacy relative to his own standards far more than ever grumbles about anyone or anything else. Couldn't really make a super case justifying that one, it's a reaction to watching people.

    If you want to argue Ramos and sexism, that's fine, but I think there's clearly a lot of sexism in how others - mostly men - are discussing the matter. For example, I wonder if @LeoCarrillo wants to have one of these back:



    And the Post is not alone in having a double standard here.

    (edit: found the original, put that in)
     
  16. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    1,445
    I bet a quick google search will find me 10 times more male sports "meltdowns" than female.

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/te...ova-andy-roddick-serena-williams-john-mcenroe

    And it’s funny because she said she wouldn’t accept coaching because she has a daughter (LOL).
     
  17. Eastchop

    Eastchop Member SoSH Member

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  18. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    She said she wouldn't cheat, because she has a daughter she's trying to model for. Let's remember, she'd just been, effectively, officially accused of cheating. In front of literally the entire tennis world, every one of her peers and her entire professional community.

    And as Matty reminds us, even in the non-slams where she's allowed to have coaches come down and discuss with her during the match, she chooses not to. Because she doesn't need it.

    I'm having acid flashbacks to arguing Ballghazi with people. Yeah, if you'd been officially but wrongly accused of cheating in your profession, you'd react just that same way, guy.
     
  19. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    So when Djokovic or Nadal get coaching warnings they're being accused of cheating in front of the entire tennis world? LOLOLOL. Yes, Carlos Ramos attacked Serena's character by imposing a code violation for coaching; she's totally NOT attacking his character by accusing him of sexism.

    This particular rorschach test really brings out some wacky stuff.

    EDIT: I also suspect that if the day were ever to come that her baby daughter asks about her behavior on the court, "why did you threaten to shove the f**ing ball down the lineswoman's f***ing throat," or "why did you tell that umpire she was unattractive on the inside" would have been more likely to come up than "why did you get a coaching warning?".
     
    #519 The Needler, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  20. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    No doubt. How does that fact support the argument that using "meltdown" in this instance is sexist?
     
  21. Scriblerus

    Scriblerus Member SoSH Member

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    991
    She was coached and used his suggestion. Right after he signaled, Serena went to the net twice for winners. Maybe she just decided to do so on her own, but she stayed at the baseline the whole first game.
     
  22. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    5,255
    Great take; basically agreed on all counts.

    I thought Martina's breakdown of the incident in today's NYT was similarly on-point and fair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    It’s difficult to know, and debatable, whether Ms. Williams could have gotten away with calling the umpire a thief if she were a male player. But to focus on that, I think, is missing the point. If, in fact, the guys are treated with a different measuring stick for the same transgressions, this needs to be thoroughly examined and must be fixed. But we cannot measure ourselves by what we think we should also be able to get away with. In fact, this is the sort of behavior that no one should be engaging in on the court. There have been many times when I was playing that I wanted to break my racket into a thousand pieces. Then I thought about the kids watching. And I grudgingly held on to that racket.
     
  23. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    40,999
    Yet another example of why Martina should be the primary tennis analyst for every Grand Slam, replacing the corpse of John McEnroe (I knew when he predicted Del Potro would win yesterday before the match that Djokovic had it in the bag, he has turned into tennis' version of late career Tim McCarver and that is not a compliment) and Chris Evert (she is fine, but much like when they played, Martina is just better).
     
  24. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    37,626
    I think Martina's column was really solid. That was a temperate and thoughtful response to the debacle. And it was a debacle, where the ump gets about 15% of the blame and Serena gets 85%.

    If a basketball player hacks another player going to the hole, he or she gets a foul called on them. Nobody thinks they are cheaters, they just committed a foul and the result is foul shots. Everyone moves onto the next play. And it happens all the time. Serena's reaction cost her the game penalty and, worse, it unfortunately trampled all over Osaka, who was killing her anyway. It was the peak moment of Osaka's career and she was holding back tears of sadness, not tears of joy. That's awful and Serena needs to own that part of it.
     
  25. jose melendez

    jose melendez Earl of Acie Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    18,553
    The whole think is making me mental. The ump was a dick, Serena, who has probably been targeted by the stodgy tennis establishment for not being a tiny white girl completely loses her shit. Isn't the lesson we need consistency in officiating, not that it's a good idea to not punish people for losing their shit?
     
  26. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    1,445
    Most Serena defenders aren't really calling for consistency in officiating. Because they want different calls to be made depending on whether the player has already incurred a code violation (or two), or depending on whether the match is the final, etc. etc. Once you start asking the officials to exercise discretion in applying the clear rules, you're not asking for consistency; you're asking for increased subjectivity.

    The thing about this sexism/double standard claim is that it's the kind of thing you can throw out there with no evidence, and it gets eaten up. The NYT reported that code violations in the US Open were Men: 23; Women 9. Presumably those 9 included Serena's 3 in the final. But maybe, women just behaved better, they say. Quite possibly. But it's certainly not evidence that women are called more strictly. One would think it wouldn't be too hard for the broadcast team or the USTA to try to compile as many of those calls as they can and review them. But nobody will do that work. It's much easier to just say, "yeah, I've seen worse with no penalty." That's almost assuredly true, just as it's undoubtedly true that much less gets penalties all the time as well.

    And as I've noted, Serena has played this card before (without the direct claim of sexism). After she intimidated and threatened the tiny lineswoman in 2009 with shoving the f***ing ball down her f***cking throat, she complained about the penalty because, "I'm sorry but a lot of people have said a lot of things way worse." (at 2:08 in the video).

     
  27. barbed wire Bob

    barbed wire Bob crippled by fear Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Why not both?
     
  28. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Calling for general leniency and discretion in disciplinary calls, and adjusting standards to the moment, is very different from calling for such for competitive calls regarding the match being played. Everyone wants umps to call balls and strikes correctly, even if we get the benefit of roughly half the bad calls. Many people also want (say) Angel Hernandez to stop having such a thin skin, and to not make themselves and their discretionary disciplinary calls the story unless it's absolutely necessary to restore order. Those are two very different wants, and the same person can want both without being inconsistent. Likewise, you can want soccer referees to call fouls consistently, but not go to the cards for dissent too readily (I happen to think the amount of dissent in world football is disgraceful, but it doesn't change the point).

    Martina's editorial also states that a violation for racquet abuse is mandatory, that demolishing it to the point where you need to replace it is an "automatic" call. That hasn't been my experience watching tennis, but I might know a liiiiiittle less about it than Martina fucking Navratilova. So let me at least ask the other fans here - I can think of tons of racquet destructions that didn't result in announced code violations. There have been a bunch of matches, particular ATP matches, where a player destroyed multiple racquets and never was docked a point, nevermind a game. I mean, shit, Baghdatis wrecked four in an extended fit of pique/rage, and I don't think took a penalty (though, in fairness, there are cases of both, e.g. Dimitrov taking a game penalty to lose a final after his third destruction). But am I making that up? Has the flexibility on that one changed recently? Is it an ATP / WTA difference? Would be good to know.
     
  29. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    The Baghdatis video you link to literally ends with the umpire calling a code violation.

    It would be worthwhile if you are going to engage in this conversation to at least peruse the current Grand Slam Rulebook. In it, you'll find all three violations called on Serena expressly discussed.
     
  30. TheYaz67

    TheYaz67 Member SoSH Member

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    4,712
    Well, just finally watched the woman's final replay last night, and sheesh, what an absolutely shit show. I get that the ump was a bit rigid, but Serena really disgraced herself there on several levels and didn't do women's tennis any favors either (given she is one of the "faces" of women's tennis) - not a good look at all. Lots of credit to Osaka on how she handled that/didn't get distracted too much by it, especially given the crowd not stopping booing after the whole meltdown and play restarted (which also was not a good look)....
     
  31. jsinger121

    jsinger121 @jsinger121 SoSH Member

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    14,365
    It would be a tall order but not out of the relm. With Federer clearly starting to show some age realistically I can't see him winning more than another 1-2 max if that. Nadal should be great at Roland Garros still but the knee injuries are starting to act up again with him. Murray may or may not get back to the elite ability after the hip injury. Stan is coming off injury as well. Del Potro could be someone that should win another major or 2. No young talent has broken through either. Djokovic's best surface is the hard court which has two majors plus as he showed he is excellent on grass as well. He also looks all the way back from the elbow injury. I could definitely 6 to 7 more major titles for him in the next 5 years with the way we have seen guys playing at a high level into their mid 30's.
     
  32. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Huge Djoker fan, but I am not as optimistic. He may be all the way back for now, but I have serious concerns about that mysterious elbow injury and surgery going forward. (One of the bummers about individual sports is that unless the athletes care to indulge our voyeuristic desires, they have no obligation to tell us what their injuries or procedures were.)
     

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