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Tatum for Davis Poll

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by Gash Prex, Jan 28, 2019.

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Would you include Tatum in Davis trade?

  1. Yes - Assuming he agreed to an extension

    149 vote(s)
    63.7%
  2. Yes - Not conditioned on extension ( Kawhi deal)

    27 vote(s)
    11.5%
  3. No - under no circumstances should Tatum be traded

    45 vote(s)
    19.2%
  4. No - I don’t think the Celtics should trade for Davis

    13 vote(s)
    5.6%
  1. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,757
    Look, it appears that we aren't going to agree on this topic which is fine.

    If you are saying that the Celtics can offer a superior "package" to, say what the Lakers can offer, I agree. However that doesn't mean that the terms that New Orleans will demand won't change from one trade partner to another. The Lakers will undoubtedly offer some combination or all of Ball, Kuzma and Ingram - perhaps even Hart.

    As much as you may want to dismiss that sort of deal, its not horrible for the Pelicans front office who is looking to save their jobs. Kuzma gets lot of flak around here but most offensive stats grade him higher than Brown. The C's picks are hugely valuable too but if Demps is worried about now, he may not value them the way others do.

    In the end, I think the C's will have to part with Tatum in order to get Davis (if it gets that far) and others do not. I would simply say that transactional experience suggests that trade partners shift their demands not based on pure overall value but what they want/need from each party.
     
  2. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,750
    And hope that none of their fans have televisions?
     
  3. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,894
    No just hope that they are more reasoned and a bit more patient than all you chumps in here :)
     
  4. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    6,984
    In fairness I doubt Boston would send Hayward to New Orleans directly, but I could certainly see a three way deal where Hayward goes to Indiana with Turner and picks being added to the haul for the Pelicans.
     
  5. Red Averages

    Red Averages owes you $50 SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,362
    We should all remember player values will likely change a lot between now and the summer. Think about Rozier's value at this time last year, then at the end of the playoffs.... and now. Same with Jaylen. Same with the picks if the Kings ends up as top 8 and the Clippers are 15th.

    Who knows where Hayward's value is at the end of the playoffs. He could be a very different player by then. I also don't think he gets moved either way, my main point here is there is a lot of time left and values will oscillate.
     
  6. Big John

    Big John lurker

    Messages:
    1,285
    LOL, reports are that the NBA is opening a tampering investigation in connection with AD's trade request.
     
  7. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    The league is under a lot of pressure from non-Lakers owners, as we saw with the Chris Paul trade.
     
  8. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

    Messages:
    6,464
    The league's investigations of this are right up there with Susan Collins and Jeff Flake being very concerned about shit... and then voting along with whatever Trump wants. Let's make some noises to make people feel heard... and then do nothing of substance because it would be bad for business.
     
  9. Imbricus

    Imbricus Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,110
    I doubt New Orleans is going to want any part of Hayward, and even if they did, they'd want more than him and Brown and a couple of lottery picks.
     
  10. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    21,359
    I’m too young to remember the first iteration of this poll: “”Maculey for Russell”

    But I bet that in retrospect those arguing for keeping the very good all star caliber guy instead of going for the franchise talent don’t feel great about it...
     
  11. JakeRae

    JakeRae Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,280
    I don’t see the comp at all. That trade involved trading an established player to move up in the draft to select Russell. If anything, Tatum is Russell in this analogy it’s just that Davis is obviously better than McCauley was. So, again, I’m just not following your point because outside of these proposals involving basketball players, they basically have nothing in common.
     
  12. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    15,503
    I don't know where to put this so I will put it here for now.

    If AD is really concerned about where KI is playing next year, wouldn't he just pick up the phone?

    If AD really cares about where KI will be playing next year, I don't think it will be that hard to figure out.
     
  13. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,288
    It'll be a one hour special on ESPN, the phone call.
     
  14. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    21,359
    I would have thought it's pretty obvious the point is that you don't let losing someone good get in the way of acquiring someone great. That you are comparing Tatum to Russell and Davis to McCauley shows you are not thinking about the same things...
     
  15. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,261
    I would probably put a rank order of

    Tatum > Ball >> Brown > Ingram > Hart > Kuzma

    Ages mostly. People have bizarrely written off Ball but I think he is much more promising than Ingram or our own Jaylen
     
  16. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,705
    Pelicans folks don't like him either.



     
  17. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    I'm glad people are trying not to be homers, but Lonzo Ball's value around the league is far lower than Jaylen Brown's. This is particularly true now that Brown is starting to look more like the guy he was in the playoffs, when he was one of the top young prospect chips in the league. There are probably a few outlier GMs who like Lonzo more, but they're in the minority.

    The other problem with Lonzo is that he keeps making noises about only wanting to play in LA, which further lowers his value.

    This all might be a moot point at the end of the day though, since I'm more and more convinced that the Celtics will end up trading Tatum.
     
  18. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,299
    Last 15 games for Brown:

    25.4 min, 50.0% FG, 46.2% 3FG, 14.5 pts, 4.5 reb, 1.3 ast

    He's been really good lately, that's for sure.
     
  19. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,705
    If I cherry-pick the hell of out of things:

    JB's postseason plus Dec/Jan numbers, over 44 games: 15.3 ppg, 47.6% FG, 39.5% 3FG.

    So, if we accept that he had issues adjusting for first part of this season, is this now what Jaylen is?
     
  20. NoXInNixon

    NoXInNixon Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,841
    I try my best not to include Tatum and hope Brown plus all the draft picks is enough. But if it has to be Tatum, Brown is off the table. I can see why the Pelicans ask for both, but Tatum plus picks beats any non-Zion package anyone else can put together.

    And most teams that could find themselves in possession of Zion should probably just keep him.
     
  21. CreedBratton

    CreedBratton Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,620
    I think the Knicks are the only team that would do the Zion/#1 pick for AD because they are a big market & can convince other free agents to sign there. Any other team wins the lotto like Cleveland & Chicago know AD would just be a one year rental so they aren’t trading away Zion for that.
     
  22. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,984
    As long as the Knicks don't land a top 2 pick I think Davis to Boston is destiny. Kuzma looks like the sort of guy that could be a good third wheel on a two all star team. But he's an offense first, last, and always player. Ball has a broader game than Kuzma, but his terrible scoring puts a real cap on his upside. He's another guy whose upside is third wheel on a two all star team. Ingram is much much worse.
     
  23. JakeRae

    JakeRae Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,280
    I don’t see Kuzma as having upside as a starter on a championship team, let alone the third option. He’s basically Marcus Morris without defense or Morris’ outlier shooting performance this year. In other words, he’s a perfectly ok offensive player from an efficiency standpoint who can handle a reasonably high volume of scoring. That’s only an asset if you are a team that doesn’t have actually efficient scorers to give those opportunities to.

    Ingram is terrible. I wouldn’t trade Yabusele for Ingram straight up.

    Zubac, Hart, and Ball all have interesting aspects as prospects. Ball still has enormous potential and his shooting has improved even if still awful.

    To compare to the Celtics guys, I’d take Brown over all the Lakers prospects combined, excluding Ball and might prefer Rozier to most of them. Brown v. Ball is close. I’d take Brown because he’s better now and Ball’s ceiling isn’t enough higher to make up for it, but could see another team disagreeing.
     
  24. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,261
    Now is a good time to remember that if the Sixers had somehow decided to draft Tatum, they would be in position to assemble an Embiid-Davis-Simmons core that would probably dominate the East for the next X years or so.

    Bullet dodged there...
     
  25. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    29,995
    Shoot, if Fultz doesn’t go busto, they’d still be able to make that happen. Fultz’s issues have really hurt that franchise.
     
  26. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    Hadn't thought about that, but it's true. If Fultz had been what Philly thought it was getting, he probably would have been traded to NO with the Miami 2021 pick and filler yesterday.
     
  27. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,288
    This board really hates Brandon Ingram. I'm not exactly high on him either but I'd take him over Lonzo Ball and he's only 2 months older.

    The potential is there if he's willing to do the work. I think he has a higher ceiling than Jaylen Brown but I don't think he ever reaches it and Brown will be the better player. I'm not ready to totally write him off though. He's only 21 and he's shown some flashes. He's long and he's athletic. He just seems to have a 2 cent head.

    Of course I say that and I'm already doubting if Ball is any better than Elfrid Payton. We all have our biases. A lot of it depends on his shot. If Smart, Rondo, Warren, etc can become passable shots, why not Ball? I just have a hard time seeing it with his FT shooting. Rondo isn't good at the line either but he's not Lonzo Ball levels of bad. It also took those guys half a decade or more to develop a reliable 3 point shot. It's very possible Ball does become a decent 3 point shooter, but it could be in his year 28 season. How much value does he have until then? He's basically Ricky Rubio with the FT shooting of Dwight Howard. If you squint really hard, maybe you can see him turning into Jason Kidd.

    They are both really young though, and young players can go from ass to stud in an off season. If they're going to make the leap, they usually do so in year 3 but sometimes it's not until year 4. I doubt anyone thought too much of D'Angelo Russell before this season (or even now), but he's taken great strides this year and turned himself into a good basketball player. It feels like he's been around forever, but he only turns 23 in February.
     
  28. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    The bolded is the real problem with Ingram, and why I'm low on him, in spite of his tools.
     
  29. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    9,261
    Ingram, like Brown, has some plus physical attributes but too many mediocre skills at this point. While those can improve, and some players (Jimmy Butler, e.g.) can take a massive leap, a lot of those guys don't. I would much rather put my stake into someone who has flashed elite skills in one or two areas (as Ball has), gambling that he can bring up his weaker aspects to average-ish, which would make him a very good player.
     
  30. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,288
    Would you take Ball over Brown?
     
  31. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,984
    I agree with all this, it's basically my point about him. If you have a team with two all stars and a bunch of roleplayers, he's going to get you a lot of points in that oh yeah, the other guy role. But his mediocre (at the best of times) defense is going to keep any team relying on him from getting over the hump.

    That being said people make too much of the Championship or bust!!! thing. Most teams just want a winning record that they can sell the fans. Kuzma would look good in Utah or Indiana, for example.

    His upside is poor man's DeMar DeRozan. He just doesn't shoot well enough from range and shows no inclination towards either doing it or putting in the spade work to get good at it. So despite the physical tools I expect him to wander around the NBA for years before finally finding his way as a roleplayer for his sixth team.

    Brown has some real plus skills, unlike Ingram. Ball's scoring troubles are a real problem that his niche skills don't overcome. His upside seems to be sidekick on a team with a couple of gifted scorers. Brown's is a lot higher than that. And he's still growing his game.
     
  32. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,261
    Yes.
     
  33. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,894
    He did shoot 39% from three last year. It was only 105 attempts though so who knows.
     
  34. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    9,288
    He's at .309 this year but it's only 68 shots. I think the bigger issue than his career .325 shooting from 3 is the <2 attempts per game. He should be letting them launch, especially last year. It's like he doesn't have the confidence. I'd rather he miss 3-4 3's a game than not take any. He's on a team with Lonzo Ball and Kyle Kuzma so I'm not sure why the hesitation.
     
  35. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,956
    Praising everyone for not being homers will many are suggesting a package where brown is the best asset is cool.

    You are not getting AD by offering 5 blah pieces (ie two middling firsts, a borderline starter and filler.
    NO surely would want a headliner for the trade. Tatum at least gives them that.

    As yes you guys owe Colangelo a beer. It's one thing have a high bust (like say Okafor) it's quite another to trade two shots and miss so so spectacularly.
    The only escape from that trade is if by pure luck the kings pick lands first overall. Which seems very unlikely.

    The sixers are not moving Simmons, esp with no other options to run the point. AD embiid would be hilarious but not really sure how it would work.
     
  36. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    1,894
    Never happen, but an Embiid for AD swap would be incredible.
     
  37. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    29,995
    Jaylen Brown is not a “borderline starter”.
     
  38. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

    Messages:
    10,391
    Like I said earlier

    NO DEALS
     
  39. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    9,288
    Technically, he's not even a starter.
     
  40. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    6,984
    The key part being the 105 atttempts. Elsewise known as a Small Sample Size.
     
  41. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    6,984
    To me that’s the logical swap. Embiid will probably outgrow his Dwight Howard phase one day, but I’d rather have the Unibrower.
     
  42. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    I think NO would consider it for sure, but how much better does that make Philly? I guess Davis fits a bit better with Butler and Simmons, which is their biggest challenge currently.
     
  43. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,757
    Justin Termine (of NBA Radio) weighs in:



    Termine: If the Lakers just got it right and drafted Tatum instead of Lonzo Ball they wouldn't have to worry about Boston swooping in and stealing Davis.
     
  44. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    The current trade market is beautiful vindication for those of us who were all-in on "Lonzo Ball is a poor man's Elfrid Payton."
     
  45. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,757
    Also, exhibit A of what Boston is giving up if they send Tatum to New Orleans for a few year vacation from competitive NBA basketball (before he likely signs with the Lakers or whomever the next Warriors will be)...

     
  46. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    If he gets dealt, he'll be in New Orleans for 6-7 years. They'll offer him the 5-year max extension, which no guy on a rookie contract has ever turned down. He might agitate to get dealt with a year left on that or whatever, but that still leaves him in the Big Easy for 6 years.
     
  47. Imbricus

    Imbricus Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,110
    I guess you consider Tatum if Davis decides he'll sign long-term. But if he doesn't? No way. That should be an easy call.
     
  48. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

    Messages:
    21,061
    I think this is backwards. If you trade Tatum, he’s likely locked away somewhere the next 6-7 years where he can’t do much damage. If you don’t trade for Davis, odds are pretty good wherever he lands is, or soon will be, a monster standing in Boston’s way.

    That’s why I say yes to the trade, though I’m not heartbroken or anything if it fizzles. I don’t know what to do with Brown, though. Is this a guy you can max?
     
  49. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,956
    He's started around half your games and is playing 25-26 minutes a game. He is sometimes good but very inconsistent.
    Isn't that exactly what he is? Young still of course and on a very deep team but ....

    What would you call him?
     
  50. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    29,995
    If you would be a starter on most NBA teams, you aren't a "borderline starter".
     

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