Sox Sign Sizemore

[joe dokes]

 
Bradley as the starter in center with Sizemore in reserve on the 25 man roster makes sense in a vacuum, I suppose, but as pointed out it would require moving Gomes.Nava or Carp, all of whom project to be better than Sizemore.  Hard to see it making sense to move one of those guiys to rely on Sizemore playing a key role.
 
As for the potential of sending JBJ down to AAA,to start the year, color me less than excited with an OF left to right of Nava/Gomes -- Sizemore -- Victorino or Nava/Gomes -- Victorino -- Sizemore, especially if Sizemore has lost a step or 3.
 
yecul's got it precisely right IMO: the risk of this signing is not about $$, but that the team gives him significant playing time and he sucks (e.g. hitting at the level he did in 2009-2010 with mediocre defense) but doesn't suck enough. quick enough, to justify pulling the plug on the experiment before July.

 
 I agree that's a risk. But since Carp can't/shouldn't play OF, and Nava can play 1B, maybe its a good thing if Carp becomes a trade piece (the logical extension of Sizemore being useful)
Ultimately, the risk, in the bolded part, is that the Sox will fuck up. But what's the logical extension of *that*?
 

Of course, sending him to Pawtucket will require waivers - and if he shows anything there's a pretty good chance he would be claimed (given the cheap salary). 

 
 

 
Between DL possibilities (is anyone going to raise a stink if *Grady Sizemore* is on the DL come 4/1), extended ST (I dont know the rules about that for veterans) and a 20--day rehab assignment, he could play meaningless baseball till mid-May.
 
 
 

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Sizemore if healthy will back-up center with JBJ backing up right, therefore essesntially Sizemore affords us back-up at 2 spots where we had none. This type of move was an obvious neccessity. If Sizemore somehow regains his prior form then we have a good problem on our hand. I'm sure the Sox would wait for a while after Sizemore proves his health before they felt comfortable it to make any other possible roster moves. By the end of ST, one of Gomes or Carp will become expendable and personally I hope it's Gomes. Carp is a better hitter and has more flexibility in the field. Gomes playing over Nava was my only real complaint with Farrell during the playoffs. 

Out of curiosity, can anybody think of a player who has missed two entire seasons as well as good chunks of the prior three seasons, who has then returned to form somewhere on the wrong side of 30?

 

[reggiecleveland]

I don't think this is that complicated. There are reports he is healthy. His contact can go up to six million if he plays a lot. If he is healthy and is actually Grady Sizemore again, he wil play and JBJ goes down. The incentives are there in case he has a TV movie worthy comeback. If he doesn't then he is likely off the roster. It would be shocking to see Gomes, Nava or Carp lost for Sizemeore,
 

Out of curiosity, can anybody think of a player who has missed two entire seasons as well as good chunks of the prior three seasons, who has then returned to form somewhere on the wrong side of 30?
 

 
I know not the same but,...

 

[Puffy]

Out of curiosity, can anybody think of a player who has missed two entire seasons as well as good chunks of the prior three seasons, who has then returned to form somewhere on the wrong side of 30?

 
Exactly. His last full season came during the Bush administration. It's not just two seasons. It's two seasons missed on top of two crappy injury plagued years, on top of one more partial season. It would be an unprecedented comeback, as far as I can tell.
 
I am all for giving it a shot, but I doubt he would beat out Nava, Carp, or Gomes for a roster spot.  If he shows something during spring training and either someone gets injured OR JBJ needs more time in Pawtucket, I could see him breaking camp.

 

[Corsi]

Sizemore's $750K deal #with #Redsox has $4M in potential PA, roster bonuses. Also $50K if Comeback Plyr of Yr
 

https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/426761708812898304

 

[SaveBooFerriss]

 
 
Of course, sending him to Pawtucket will require waivers - and if he shows anything there's a pretty good chance he would be claimed (given the cheap salary). 

 
I don't think so.   I think he could be placed on the DL to start the season and do a minor league rehab for 30 days.  With his history, I think it would be completely appropriate.  

 

[Trlicek's Whip]

Out of curiosity, can anybody think of a player who has missed two entire seasons as well as good chunks of the prior three seasons, who has then returned to form somewhere on the wrong side of 30?

 
Another inexact comp, but Josh Hamilton was on the restricted list for three years with substance abuse issues before clawing to the major leagues with CIN at age 26. His next season was his first with TEX. I don't have time to dig up if during his restricted list time he was even allowed to participate in baseball activities.
 
I am happy they are finding cheap ways to add to the team's flexibility and depth. Like every ST when we have more pitchers than rotation slots. Things have a way of working out. If one of our NRI's suddenly squares up and hits bombs at the plate or starts throwing smoke by hitters, we'd have to account for that new and sudden talent on the roster too. 
 
Sizemore's skill set when healthy was a solid speed/power combo, and you cross that bridge of how to keep him if he's better than replacement value when you get to it, and he's healthy.

 

[joe dokes]

Out of curiosity, can anybody think of a player who has missed two entire seasons as well as good chunks of the prior three seasons, who has then returned to form somewhere on the wrong side of 30?

 
Pitcher Gary Nolan was younger, but missed most of 2 years (age 25 and 26) and came back to be effective for 2 more before his (225IP at 19y/o) arm finally fell off.:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nolanga01.shtml

 

[Trlicek's Whip]

 
Pitcher Gary Nolan was younger, but missed most of 2 years (age 25 and 26) and came back to be effective for 2 more before his (225IP at 19y/o) arm finally fell off.:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nolanga01.shtml

 
Scott Kazmir is close, but only turned 30 today. He pitched 1.2 innings in 2011 and didn't play in MLB in 2012 before signing as a lottery ticket with CLE last season.
 
Edit: he was pitching craptacularly this whole time, so this is not a great comp at all. I thought he was injured, when he was just playing in the Dominican and the Independent League in Texas.

 

[joe dokes]

Bret Saberhagen missed much 97 and all of 96 before having a couple of decent seasons in Boston.
 
Its an interesting exercise.  Maybe its easier for pitchers, who can re-invent themselves as relievers and junkballers.  Position players have fewer comebacking options.

 

[chrisfont9]

 
It probably is a little gratuitous, but I was criticized for questioning the front office because they know more about Grady Sizemore's health than I do.  If that's the standard, then nothing here should be discussed because they know a lot more about everything relating to these players than we do.
 
I don't think Sizemore is fooling anybody.  The front office knows he's a risk and they're willing to take that risk.  Without knowing 1% of what they know (which is implicit in everything almost everybody writes here), I'd rather they take different risks.  I hope they are right and I am wrong.  It has certainly happened before.

You mistake my tone. I said fair enough -- there are obviously reasons to not believe in Sizemore being healthy again. Then I suggested that the Sox' offer was evidence that maybe there's reason to have hope. Nothing more.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

 
I don't think so.   I think he could be placed on the DL to start the season and do a minor league rehab for 30 days.  With his history, I think it would be completely appropriate.  

 
Well, IMO even three weeks isn't enough. I'd put him in Extended Spring Training for at least a month and then the rehab stint. Even if he hadn't been injured it was going to take a pretty extended period to recover those lost skills.
 
The main point being they would have to be pretty confident in their projections for him going forward before they would consider a roster move to make room for him.

 

[dynomite]

Between DL possibilities (is anyone going to raise a stink if *Grady Sizemore* is on the DL come 4/1), extended ST (I dont know the rules about that for veterans) and a 20--day rehab assignment, he could play meaningless baseball till mid-May. 

I came here to post this exactly.

I really doubt he was brought in to compete for JBJ's job in March. From Farrell's comments about "easing" him back into things and the Bradford article's description, it sounds like Sizemore is going to need some time to get back in playing shape (as opposed to simply physical shape).

I would definitely expect him to start the season on the DL (facing low-level live pitching as he rehabs in extended spring training?), and would be surprised to see him play in an ML game before May.

 

[Ananti]

Sizemore is probably not going to work out. But so what, 750K is a drop in the bucket. If he were anything but a long shot another team would have offered him more than 750k. 

 

[seantoo]

 
You see, this sums up the problem perfectly. You want the roster rearranged if Sizemore is still healthy at the end of ST. Either Gomes (unlikely because he's a RH) or Carp/Nava will have to be moved if Sizemore is on the roster. Nava still has options I believe so you could send him down and not have to lose a player. But that's a terrible message to send to Nava who had an outstanding season last year and now he's not even in the majors because a washed up has been manages to make it through 6 weeks of baseball drills.
 
But even if Sizemore manages to be healthy and productive by Opening Day what's the likelihood of him remaining that way? I just can't see trading someone given his injury history. I'd want to see him play real baseball for at least a couple of months before even remotely consider making any roster adjustments. Cherington seems to agree ..
 
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/01/al-east-links-blue-jays-drew-sizemore-red-sox.html
 
 
 
Of course, sending him to Pawtucket will require waivers - and if he shows anything there's a pretty good chance he would be claimed (given the cheap salary). 

The Sox problem is that they do not have a back-up for CF/RF and they have some redundancy with Carp & Gomes. I agree with you in part, Sizemore's injury history is a grave concern and the team will have to make the best decision they can at that time. What you refer to is not clear enough nor a direct quote. Surely Ben would live to have the option but depending on Sizemore's progress he knows he would need Sizemore's agreement if he wanted to keep him. 
RIght now the real issue is in your last statement, there simply isn't the roster space to allow what you suggested.

 

[MakMan44]

Are people already forgetting that the 2013 Sox gave Middlebrooks all the way through June to attempt to work through his struggles regardless of his results? 
 
If the Sox are impacted by Sizemore sucking for a month or so before they cut him, I'd argue that they'd have many more problems than giving too many ABs to Grady Sizemore. 
 
EDIT: At least this year they have JBJ to replace Sizemore if he can't play.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

The Sox problem is that they do not have a back-up for CF/RF and they have some redundancy with Carp & Gomes. I agree with you in part, Sizemore's injury history is a grave concern and the team will have to make the best decision they can at that time. What you refer to is not clear enough nor a direct quote. Surely Ben would live to have the option but depending on Sizemore's progress he knows he would need Sizemore's agreement if he wanted to keep him. 
RIght now the real issue is in your last statement, there simply isn't the roster space to allow what you suggested.

Not sure what you are referring to here .. if he gets through waivers he won't be ON the roster

 

[seantoo]

Not sure what you are referring to here .. if he gets through waivers he won't be ON the roster

And we'd still need a back-up outfielder good enough to cover CF and/or RF. If Sizemore eventually is injured yet again, we still need someone to play the role he's being brought in for. I'm not sure why Makman and a few others keep confusing whose starting and whose backing up who. It seems clear to me that it will be JBJ but regardless of if I'm right or wrong about that we still need a CF a RF and a backup OF'er who can cover at least one of those positions, preferably CF. If either of JBJ or Victorino is injured what then? Nava in right? Maybe for a game here on there but anything beyond is a very bad idea. 

 

[nvalvo]

And we'd still need a back-up outfielder good enough to cover CF and/or RF. If Sizemore eventually is injured yet again, we still need someone to play the role he's being brought in for. I'm not sure why Makman and a few others keep confusing whose starting and whose backing up who. It seems clear to me that it will be JBJ but regardless of if I'm right or wrong about that we still need a CF a RF and a backup OF'er who can cover at least one of those positions, preferably CF. If either of JBJ or Victorino is injured what then? Nava in right? Maybe for a game here on there but anything beyond is a very bad idea. 

 
We just signed Scott Cousins (most famous for breaking Buster Posey's ankle) to a minor league deal. He's hardly a thrilling option, but he's a competent defensive outfielder. 

 

[terrisus]

Are people already forgetting that the 2013 Sox gave Middlebrooks all the way through June to attempt to work through his struggles regardless of his results? 
 
If the Sox are impacted by Sizemore sucking for a month or so before they cut him, I'd argue that they'd have many more problems than giving too many ABs to Grady Sizemore. 

 
Well, the Red Sox have reason to wait in hopes of getting improvement out of Middlebrooks - he's under team control until 2018.
Not so much with Sizemore being on a 1-year deal.

 

[mauf]

How many people here would be OK with the Sox sending JBJ to Pawtucket even if he has a solid spring? If you're OK with that, you likely like this signing unreservedly; if you're not, you're viewing this signing with reservations, if not trepidation.

I'm in the latter camp, but the idea that "these things have a way of working themselves out" also holds sway with me. There are four or five guys who could get hurt and open a roster spot for Sizemore; there's a pretty good chance there's no 25-man roster crunch in early April, even if everyone who's healthy plays well.

 

[jimbobim]

I would imagine Sizemore plays sparingly in Spring Training gets evaluated and placed on either the 30 or 60 day DL to get him some rehab time in Pawtucket . Eventually they'll have to make a choice between Carp and Sizemore but they can delay that decision for a while if they want to. 

 

[aron7awol]

When you combine his extreme platoon split with his ridiculously high upside, I don't think you can do much better than Sizemore with one of your last roster spots...
 
Career platoon split is 135 wRC+ vs. RHP and 86 wRC+ vs. LHP.
 
His defense is a big question mark after all of the injuries, but even in his last few injury-ridden years he wasn't terrible vs RHP:
2009 118 wRC+
2010 93 wRC+
2011 106 wRC+
 
Oliver projects him for a 107 wRC+, .250 AVG w/ 17 HR in 600 PA.  If he were to be platooned, that projection would likely be close to 120 wRC+.  If he can combine that with average defense in LF, he'd deserve to be the starting LF at the very least.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

When you combine his extreme platoon split with his ridiculously high upside, I don't think you can do much better than Sizemore with one of your last roster spots...
 
Career platoon split is 135 wRC+ vs. RHP and 86 wRC+ vs. LHP.
 
His defense is a big question mark after all of the injuries, but even in his last few injury-ridden years he wasn't terrible vs RHP:
2009 118 wRC+
2010 93 wRC+
2011 106 wRC+
 
Oliver projects him for a 107 wRC+, .250 AVG w/ 17 HR in 600 PA.  If he were to be platooned, that projection would likely be close to 120 wRC+.  If he can combine that with average defense in LF, he'd deserve to be the starting LF at the very least.

 
Using any projection system to get an idea of Sizemore's production is insane. One assumes he'll still be much better vs. RHs - but that's about it. Projection systems need data. And there's no data for anyone remotely similar to Grady Sizemore. 
 
This seems to me to be pretty simple. They will play him as much as his body will allow in ST. If he shows anything they will put him on the 60 day DL and send him to Extended ST + a nice long three week Rehab stint. If he still shows promise by mid/late May, that is, if he's a better player than Nava or Carp, then they will make adjustments 
 
All other scenarios would seem dependent on injuries - or a complete miracle and it's 2009.
 
 
.

 

[The X Man Cometh]

 
Using any projection system to get an idea of Sizemore's production is insane. One assumes he'll still be much better vs. RHs - but that's about it. Projection systems need data. And there's no data for anyone remotely similar to Grady Sizemore. 
 
This seems to me to be pretty simple. They will play him as much as his body will allow in ST. If he shows anything they will put him on the 60 day DL and send him to Extended ST + a nice long three week Rehab stint. If he still shows promise by mid/late May, that is, if he's a better player than Nava or Carp, then they will make adjustments 
 
All other scenarios would seem dependent on injuries - or a complete miracle and it's 2009.
 
 
.

 
Bingo! No one is going to raise an eyebrow if Grady Sizemore is on the 60 day DL, Just leave out the fact that its for a hangnail.
 
Then... if he turns into his all-star self, or at least a facsimile of it,we have the mother of all first world problems.

 

[seantoo]

I think the divide is that some of us see AAA as a reasonable starting point for JBJ this spring.  Last year at this time, the consensus was that Bradley should start the season in Portland.  ......
 

While I agree with your thoughts in this post I don't recall the part above the way you do. I believe that most here thought it was a fine idea that he started with Boston last year after his great ST. The minority, myself included, thought he was rushed. He had so few at bats above the AA level that it seemed reasonable to believe he should experience more sustained success first. Had he started the season in AAA and had at least another half a season of reasonable success then it would have made alot more sense to the let him get his feet wet in Boston.
 
FWIW each season I rarely disagree with the moves Ben, and Theo before him, have made but in those cases usually time has proven them wrong. I'm not claiming anything beyond the previous statement.
 
The Sox within two years will have more homegrown players on their 24 man roster with the possible exception of St. Louis than any other club. Theo used to talk about the $100 million dollar development machine which Ben is continuing. The goal was for it to contribute at least 2 players a year, on average, to the MLB team but this also included using prospects to make trades to supplement the unavoidable weaknesses of any farm system.
 
I still believe the Sox should be packaging their mlb depth and/or prospects to acquire a very good OF prospect. They have 7+ (Owens, Ranuado, Webster, Barnes, Workman, Ball and Britton legitimate prospects here) obviously some of them will not pan out. The Sox however have been better than the average club in developing prospects into mlb players. Ideally they'd turn this depth into at least one OF prospect who is at AA or higher and has the ceiling to start for a contending team. After JBJ the talent for OF'ers down on the farm drops down alot. Bryce has a chance but then there is nothing for a few years. The only other positional weakness in the system is at first and that is far less a concern.

 

[E5 Yaz]

The Sox within two years will have more homegrown players on their 24 man roster with the possible exception of St. Louis than any other club. 

 
More than Miami? Or Houston? Or Kansas City, Colorado or Minnesota?
 
And, when did they decide to go back to a 24-man roster?

 

[joe dokes]

The Sox within two years will have more homegrown players on their 24 man roster with the possible exception of St. Louis than any other club.
 

 
 
Maybe they *want* to, but you have no way of knowing what 2016 looks like. Or if the Marlins make Stanton available tomorrow. Or which rebuilding teams will suck so bad they will, almost literally, have AAA teams out there.

 

[dynomite]

 
More than Miami? Or Houston? Or Kansas City, Colorado or Minnesota?
 
And, when did they decide to go back to a 24-man roster?

Right. I don't think the hyperbolic number ("the most in the league") matters all that much -- who wants to compete with the Marlins for that distinction, especially after they jettisoned their ML players and promoted the entire AAA squad?

The key is that the Red Sox are operating exactly as they should, by developing talented players internally and rounding out the roster (and preventing rushing prospects through the system) with smart veteran signings like Koji and Napoli and Drew. It's a hell of a lot of fun to root a well-run team.

 

[seantoo]

 
More than Miami? Or Houston? Or Kansas City, Colorado or Minnesota?
 
And, when did they decide to go back to a 24-man roster?

E5Yaz, substitute may for will, carry on.

 

[mabrowndog]

 
 
Former Tigers RHP Brayan Villarreal DFA'd by Red Sox to make room for Grady Sizemore.

 
https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/426177324459892736

 
Villarreal cleared waivers and was assigned outright to the PawSox, but he'll be with the big club for Spring Training.

 

[Mike F]

 
Villarreal cleared waivers and was assigned outright to the PawSox, but he'll be with the big club for Spring Training.

 

[Mike F]

Thank heaven, in Ft Meyers the sun is again shinning and the sky stopped falling.