SOSH Running Dogs

[TallerThanPedroia]

The weather for the week looks like showers every day with temps in the low to mid 60s through the weekend. Lows in the 40s. I know the race isnt for 7 days, but I like to look ahead. I'd love it to stay in the 40s and 50s for the race as I think that is my best chance to get 3:15.

I've been obsessively checking the 15-day forecast every day since the end of September. A period of rain was first forecast after the 14th, then around the 14th, and today it seems to have moved to before the 14th, so hopefully that pattern holds. Right now it's "Times of clouds and sun, High: 60 °F" which would be pretty good.

Steve, good luck next week. I made the mistake of getting fired up during miles 11-13 because it is slightly downhill and I paid for it later as I carried the same pace through miles 13-16 which is really the only part of the course with any hills to speak of. When I say hills they arent very tough or long, but its a change up from the rest of the course. During my training I found I was 10-15 seconds per miles faster for the part of the course for miles 11-13 (21-23 also) than I was for 4-6 when I used the same effort.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep that in mind when I hit that stretch. I'm not too worried about hills. When I first started running over a year ago, it was on the sidewalks of Brookline and Allston/Brighton, all around Corey Hill. I've been doing most of my recent training on flat loops, but I'm hoping my legs remember.

What's the surface like? Is it all pavement/roads? The Run to Remember went over those metal grates on the overpass on Memorial Drive at the BU Bridge - not fun.

 

[underhandtofirst]

What's the surface like? Is it all pavement/roads? The Run to Remember went over those metal grates on the overpass on Memorial Drive at the BU Bridge - not fun.

The first 3+ miles are on roads that are closed off so you can run the width of the road. After that it was just a few feet on the right side of the road. As part of the short hill around mile 4.5 there is a bridge that is under repair and is one lane wide. I'm not quite sure what they are going to do around here. It's possible this section of the course is closed to traffic as well, but I cant remember. There is a bridge at mile 8, I think we run on the metal pedestrian walkway and it is about 200 yards long. You go over the same bridge after mile 18. Another bridge is at mile 13 that is closed to traffic on raceday (the half marathon going over it the other direction). This bridge isnt paved, but is some almost rubbery surface over metal plates. You'll pass this bridge at mile 3.

The roads are in pretty good condition except for miles 3.5-5 (13.5-15) where some of the pavement is cracked, but not too bad. The course is also pretty straight as you can probably tell from the race website.

Most of the course is only wide enough for a couple people to run side by side. There are cones about 3 feet inside the white line on the right side of the road. You've also got 1-3 feet on the right side of the white line depending on width of the road in different places. There will be cars driving by you throughout the race, but it didnt bother me because I had my ipod on. I took about 40 seconds to cross the starting line last year and I was running comfortably around 1.5-2 miles in. The race just isnt very crowded once you're into the flow. You will have people around you most likely, so you can pace off people if necessary. What you wont have is large crowds along the route. There are occassional people out there supporting you and the local track teams run the water/gatorade stands every 2 miles.

 

[amh03]

Hopefully, none of you SoSH runners were in Chicago this weekend - never heard of such heat related injuries.

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Organizers shut down the course four hours after the start of Sunday's Chicago Marathon because of 88-degree heat and sweltering humidity that left one runner dead and sent at least 49 to area hospitals. Another 250 were treated at the site... Chad Schieber of Midland, Michigan, 35, collapsed while running on the South Side and was pronounced dead shortly before 1 p.m...Helicopters hovered over the race course while police officers shouted through a bullhorn and warned runners to slow down and walk.

Link on CNN

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

I really did not need to see that when I opened the paper this morning.

I didn't realize that Boston used to start at noon and they only recently moved it to 10:00am.

There are occassional people out there supporting you and the local track teams run the water/gatorade stands every 2 miles.

Oh, good. The race's crappy website doesn't give any indication that they have more than plain water.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Oh, good. The race's crappy website doesn't give any indication that they have more than plain water.

Last year they had water and Gatorade (lemon-lime). I found most, if not all, stations didnt do a great job mixing the gatorade. it was mostly watered down. I have considered using my belt and water bottle I use during training that carries 22oz, but I have decided I'll go without unless it is warm (> 70 degrees). This week I have to practice getting water on the run without spilling it all. My goal last year was just finishing so I just walked through every aid station which burned about 15-20 seconds every 2 miles.

 

[BleacherFan]

I really did not need to see that when I opened the paper this morning.

I didn't realize that Boston used to start at noon and they only recently moved it to 10:00am.
Oh, good. The race's crappy website doesn't give any indication that they have more than plain water.

The water stands are actually pretty cool. Each water stand is operated by a local school and whomever does the best job (i think based on enthusiasm, etc ) gets a pretty cool prize. IMO, the stands were kinda fun.

Just to add on about the course (I do a lot of training around it) - like was mentioned before, the first couple of miles before you hit the Rourke bridge are pretty flat - then from the Rourke to the Tyngsboro bridge it's definitely where the 'hills' are (mostly of the rolling variety - but for the most part it's not that bad. After you cross the Tyngsboro bridge - prepare for a pretty good net downhill until you get back to the Rourke bridge. A lot of runners make this mistake of getting too amp-ed up and flying here and the hills when you cross back over the Rourke again will get a lot of runners. Stay contained until you hit the Tyngsboro bridge again and let her rip. After you pass the Rourke the 2nd time you will be heading back into Lowell and the Spinners stadium. THis is about 2-3 more miles and there are a couple of hilly stretches which will seem like mountains after 23-24 miles.

Most of all, enjoy it and have fun. The training is over and don't worry about the weather. In '04 I was planning on driving the course the night before and the entire boulevard was underwater and I was a nervous wreck. Turns out the next day it was fine - same for Boston of this year. Just hope for nice cool temps and you'll do fine

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Most of all, enjoy it and have fun. The training is over and don't worry about the weather. In '04 I was planning on driving the course the night before and the entire boulevard was underwater and I was a nervous wreck. Turns out the next day it was fine - same for Boston of this year. Just hope for nice cool temps and you'll do fine

Yeah I'm gonna go get my number on Saturday and drive around. I don't think I've ever even been to Lowell. Finishing by running around a ball park should be quite fun for me, although those corners look kinda rough:

http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-states/ma/lowell/41278945

 

[underhandtofirst]

A couple points to add onto BF's nice breakdown of the course. The part of the course for miles 8.5-11 and 18.5-21 are run along some tree lined street and you'll be in the shade for the most part. From 22 to the finish there is no shade at all. I do remember one quick downhill and uphill around 24 miles. At 25 miles I recall the road having a pretty good bank. The right hand bank would have been sweet if I were driving in a car or running 200m sprints, but at the end of a marathon, not so much. There's one final bridge just before you get to the Spinners stadium when you run on metal grates, but you can see the stadium a few yards away so it didnt matter. You finish in the stadium by running the entire warning track of the outfield all the way around to just past first base. Feels like you're running forever, but as soon as you finish they hand you your blanket and finisher medal.

It was cool to finish in the stadium and there are people in the stands cheering (few hundred) and from the top of the 1st base stands they can watch runners coming over the bridge. A huge negative to having it in the stadium is that all the post race food and drink is at the top of the stadium. Yes you'll have to walk up 25 rows of bleachers to get it. That hurt, but not as much as going DOWN the stairs to leave the stadium. Let's just say people aren't flying. They posted the times on the wall near the food about 15 mins after I finished which was cool too.

The local track team aim stations are fun. Some played music and others dressed up in costumes. You'll see each of them twice during the race so it gives you something to look forward to.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Yeah I'm gonna go get my number on Saturday and drive around. I don't think I've ever even been to Lowell. Finishing by running around a ball park should be quite fun for me, although those corners look kinda rough:

http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-states/ma/lowell/41278945

I wouldnt sweat the corners too much. If you look at last year's results and your goal of 4:20 you're not going to be running in traffic. There were < 700 in the entire marathon last year so you have plenty of room to run. There are a few turns but really only at each end of the loop.

BleacherFan have you thought about running Bay State again? From earlier posts I see you run Boston in 2:45-2:50. Add in the improvement expected from this course and you would be top 5 and maybe even win it on the right day. It probably doesnt fit in with your current racing schedule, but I was curious if you thought of giving it a shot.

 

[BleacherFan]

I wouldnt sweat the corners too much. If you look at last year's results and your goal of 4:20 you're not going to be running in traffic. There were < 700 in the entire marathon last year so you have plenty of room to run. There are a few turns but really only at each end of the loop.

BleacherFan have you thought about running Bay State again? From earlier posts I see you run Boston in 2:45-2:50. Add in the improvement expected from this course and you would be top 5 and maybe even win it on the right day. It probably doesnt fit in with your current racing schedule, but I was curious if you thought of giving it a shot.

Thanks - it's something I've thought of - that's for sure. I think if not for the wind/weather in Boston I could have cracked 2:45 but that's another thread..... I've come to the conclusion that for me to train for a marathon I need to commit to 85+mpw for 12-16 weeks and that's a lot of commitment twice a year so I've been focusing on the spring marathon (Boston) only.

I've improved leaps and bounds over the last year and I owe it all to miles - no speedwork and just a weekly long run of 18/20+. It's funny how simple it is. My race this fall is the Portsmouth 1/2 and I will be disappointed if I don't finish top 3. After that a little break and back to the miles. Maybe Baystate in 08 it would be cool to win a marathon that's for sure. Unfortunately we're got the deepest talent here in the Northeast and like you said, anything can happen during a marathon.

Also Steve, keep an eye out for any impromptu pace groups - there might be a 3:10-3:15 group you might be able to hang on with. Also early on in the race seek out runners that might have a common goal - it's always easier to run with someone at your own pace. And I'm sure you may most of this but some of the golden rules I've learned from others:

Last minute tips:

1. Take something at every water stand - the best way to drink water out of the cups is to fold it and make a tiny spout out of the top and suck it. Even if you only get a few ounces - it's worth it in the long run

2. If you take gu at all - once you start you HAVE to take it roughly every 45 minutes until the end - if not you will have a sugar crash and it's not pretty. Just keep this in mind when you take the 1st one - (I take mine at roughly 20)

3. Carbo load two nights before - go nuts with the pasta. Night before pasta is fine - just try to get a decent amount of food - just don't eat too much

4. Don't timebank for the 2nd half of the race - try to get even splits

5. Don't stray too much from your normal long run stuff - dress/drink/gu/etc

6. Morning of the race - no food within two hours of the race

7. Don't start too close to the front - helps to avoid the 'vacuum' - nothing worse that opening with a 6:30-6:45 mile

 

[underhandtofirst]

Those are some good tips, many I've learned but its good to get them from an experienced runner. Last year I was too far back at the start of the race (37 seconds to cross the start line) so I got caught in a huge crowd and ran the first mile in 8:47 which should have been cake but I know I burned energy trying to get around people running much slower. I hope to get much closer to the front this year. I'll have my watch on and through training I know what heart rate I should be at to get to a certain pace.

Have you thought of using Boston as a super long training run and set your sights on a fall marathon? Maybe coast the first 16 then when you hit the hills turn it into a tempo run for the final 8? You already automatically qualify for NY (sub 2:55) so that might be fun too. I've thought about trying a different fall marathon, maybe one that is net downhill. I think there's one in NH that a friend ran that he said is 10+ mins faster than Boston.

When do you do your 18-20 mile runs? I'd imagine they still take 2.5 hours even at your pace. For 85 mpw would you need to do 2 workouts per day? I can't imagine its real good for you to run 7 days a week. Then again the elite runners go well over 100 (up to 160 I've heard) per week. I guess that's why they are elite. They are also only dragging around 140 lbs, where I'm pulling 175!

 

[BleacherFan]

Those are some good tips, many I've learned but its good to get them from an experienced runner. Last year I was too far back at the start of the race (37 seconds to cross the start line) so I got caught in a huge crowd and ran the first mile in 8:47 which should have been cake but I know I burned energy trying to get around people running much slower. I hope to get much closer to the front this year. I'll have my watch on and through training I know what heart rate I should be at to get to a certain pace.

Good point I forgot to mention - you often use up too much energy 'jockeying' and moving around people by the time you settle in. I would estimate that if you get in the first few rows of people on Sunday you should be OK - just keep an eye on your pace and listen to your breathing the first 1/2 mile.

Have you thought of using Boston as a super long training run and set your sights on a fall marathon? Maybe coast the first 16 then when you hit the hills turn it into a tempo run for the final 8? You already automatically qualify for NY (sub 2:55) so that might be fun too. I've thought about trying a different fall marathon, maybe one that is net downhill. I think there's one in NH that a friend ran that he said is 10+ mins faster than Boston.

I have thought of that as well - I've always thought that it's tougher to train for a fall marathon however. I think eventually I will - a very experienced runner once told me 'enough with the Boston BS' do something really fast and flat and see how low you can go. Maybe after the allure of Boston wears off I will try that approach. You have to watch out for those net downhill marathons (like Steamtown in Pennsylvania - check out the elevation profile) - it can do some crazy stuff to your quads.

When do you do your 18-20 mile runs? I'd imagine they still take 2.5 hours even at your pace. For 85 mpw would you need to do 2 workouts per day? I can't imagine its real good for you to run 7 days a week. Then again the elite runners go well over 100 (up to 160 I've heard) per week. I guess that's why they are elite. They are also only dragging around 140 lbs, where I'm pulling 175!

Nah, less than that - as an example yesterday, I did a 13mile warmup through Haverhill,Groveland and West Newbury (6:36 pace - like 1:25), then I jumped into a 5M race with a training partner of me to do a tempo run, we did it in 29:07 (under 6:00 goal pace) and then 2m cool down - probably 2:10 or so. The week before that I did 19.7 in about 2:15...

That 85mpw was an average as well, I tapered for a few races (Boston Prep, Stew Chase in Lynn) and went over 100 a couple of times. Mostly it was 90 or so on a normal week. As a rule of thumb I do doubles above 70mpw and I only take one day off a month. I had problems early on with my knees but I think the milage has helped strengthen them with the increased milage.

If you look at some of the olympic trials peeps they are over 120-130 (guys like meb/browne and abdi) consistently. It's funny though because it's different from person to person. If you look at a local phenom like Casey Moulton from Pelham, he's a 2:15-er but he's never much more than 110. And if you look at another local guy like Nate Jenkins' - he's a 2:15-er as well but he's consistently 120-140. You would think they are all doing 140-160 mpw but they vary a lot.

My log is online if you're curious - it goes back a few years. As far as weight goes, I'm weighing in about 140-142 (5'11") and those guys weigh in the 130's! You have to worry about anemia and other stuff when you're that light.

My log

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

I wouldnt sweat the corners too much. If you look at last year's results and your goal of 4:20 you're not going to be running in traffic. There were < 700 in the entire marathon last year so you have plenty of room to run. There are a few turns but really only at each end of the loop.

We'll see. Every race I've run so far has suddenly become super popular compared to the year before. Because of my presence, natch.

As for pacing, I'm hoping for the cute girl encounter again.

 

[underhandtofirst]

We'll see. Every race I've run so far has suddenly become super popular compared to the year before. Because of my presence, natch.

As for pacing, I'm hoping for the cute girl encounter again.

764 registered through Monday night according to the website. Weather looks good for Sunday, just hope little to no wind.

I got a kick out of BleacherFan's running log. He's running "under control" at 6-6:30 per mile. I remember running like that in HS about 40 lbs ago!



Anybody have races scheduled over the late fall and winter? Last year I ran a 5k on Super Bowl Sunday in Lowell. They've run it every year around 10am the day of the Super Bowl since the Pats beat the Rams (good omen!). There were some rolling hills and only about 200 entrants so it was easy to just show up and run and not be caught in a huge crowd. Judging by the times people ran its not really a "fun run" type of race as more than half the people ran under 25 mins for 5k (8 min/mi). For me it was a nice race to see how the winter running paid off. My 20:36 time gave me the boost I needed to think I had an outside shot at qualifying for Boston.

Super 5k Link

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

I was feeling so confident last week that I let a friend talk me into running the Rock and Roll marathon in Tempe, AZ in January. He's a track guy from way back, but it'll be his first marathon.

I ran the Paddy's Pub 3-miler last year, and I really want to run it again because it'd be the first race I've run twice, but it's just a week after the marathon, so we'll see.

 

[BleacherFan]

764 registered through Monday night according to the website. Weather looks good for Sunday, just hope little to no wind.

I got a kick out of BleacherFan's running log. He's running "under control" at 6-6:30 per mile. I remember running like that in HS about 40 lbs ago!

The best was I was doing some track at the local high school and these kids who were on the team a few years ago asked if I graduated in 2002 or 2003. Try 1993 guys...

Anybody have races scheduled over the late fall and winter? Last year I ran a 5k on Super Bowl Sunday in Lowell. They've run it every year around 10am the day of the Super Bowl since the Pats beat the Rams (good omen!). There were some rolling hills and only about 200 entrants so it was easy to just show up and run and not be caught in a huge crowd. Judging by the times people ran its not really a "fun run" type of race as more than half the people ran under 25 mins for 5k (8 min/mi). For me it was a nice race to see how the winter running paid off. My 20:36 time gave me the boost I needed to think I had an outside shot at qualifying for Boston.

Super 5k Link

Cold last year, huh? I know the race organizer and I heard it's being moved this year - i guess the members of the club aren't that happy about all the runners showing up. Watch for it to be possibly moved to the other side of Lowell near the boathouse.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Cold last year, huh? I know the race organizer and I heard it's being moved this year - i guess the members of the club aren't that happy about all the runners showing up. Watch for it to be possibly moved to the other side of Lowell near the boathouse.

It was around 20 at the start. It wasnt as bad as the previous year at the Hyannis Half in February when it was 20 and the wind was howling. About 500 yards from the start everyone had to run through 6 inches of water. Not exactly what I was looking for at the beginning of 13.1 miles.

The runners did take over the club, but some of the members stuck it out and were drinking at the bar at 9am :lol: The other side of Lowell is the last couple miles of the Bay State. I think they have a race around Thanksgiving there too. Now that would be a flat race course, straight too, almost like a drag race.

I'd like to run more races next year if possible. Last year I ran the Westford 10k in early May. Tough course with a 150 ft drop about a mile into the race and the same hill the last 1/2 mile of the race. The last 3 miles were uphill so pacing for the race was next to impossible. I think the race was also some sort of New England or Massachusetts 5k Championship so there were all sorts of heros in the 5k.

 

[BleacherFan]

I'd like to run more races next year if possible. Last year I ran the Westford 10k in early May. Tough course with a 150 ft drop about a mile into the race and the same hill the last 1/2 mile of the race. The last 3 miles were uphill so pacing for the race was next to impossible. I think the race was also some sort of New England or Massachusetts 5k Championship so there were all sorts of heros in the 5k.

Yes, that was the hardest race this year for me. There is nothing but failure in trying to run for speed two weeks after a marathon - you're just not training to do so. The damn GP series started two weeks after Boston (westford 5k), then a week later it was the groton 10k, then two weeks and the bedford 12k. There is nothing more humbling then the championship races in new england.

If you have any races in mind and want my .02$ let me know. I've run a lot of them in the area and I have a decent memory :lol:

 

[BleacherFan]

Good luck tomorrow Steve - weather looks like it's gonna be pretty good for ya

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Good luck tomorrow Steve - weather looks like it's gonna be pretty good for ya

Yeah that rain picked up and came in early.

I just picked up my number and drove the course. Those hills look like cupcakes! [said for posterity]

That railroad bridge that's under construction looks like a pain, though. I hope they at least sweep off the chunks of concrete.

 

[sass a thon]

good luck steve.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Now that was a disappointing run. I finished in 3:31:45 after going through the half in 1:41. Both arches were KILLING me the last 9 miles which just piled on top of the sore hamstring I had from mile 3 on. I felt so strong even with the sore hamstring through 14 and was starting to reel people in the next 4 miles.

My legs feel tired and a little bit sore, but nothing like they should after 26 miles. It was just so disappointing to not feel 100% on a terrific day. I was getting prepared to put on a push to go sub 3:20 around 18 and my arches started acting up so instead of going down to 7:25 I went up to 8:45/mi.

My mistake was using my speed training shoes for the race. I did do a 22 miler with the and I dont recall these problems. Got to be better about testing them out next race. There's always next year.

Hopefully Steve had a good day!! The wind was really picking up on miles 14-18 and unfortunately wasn't much of a push on the way back. Maybe this should go on the Catchall bitch thread

 

[BleacherFan]

Now that was a disappointing run. I finished in 3:31:45 after going through the half in 1:41. Both arches were KILLING me the last 9 miles which just piled on top of the sore hamstring I had from mile 3 on. I felt so strong even with the sore hamstring through 14 and was starting to reel people in the next 4 miles.

My legs feel tired and a little bit sore, but nothing like they should after 26 miles. It was just so disappointing to not feel 100% on a terrific day. I was getting prepared to put on a push to go sub 3:20 around 18 and my arches started acting up so instead of going down to 7:25 I went up to 8:45/mi.

My mistake was using my speed training shoes for the race. I did do a 22 miler with the and I dont recall these problems. Got to be better about testing them out next race. There's always next year.

Hopefully Steve had a good day!! The wind was really picking up on miles 14-18 and unfortunately wasn't much of a push on the way back. Maybe this should go on the Catchall bitch thread

Nice job - still a hell of a run IMO. Ah, the suckiness of the marathon - anything can happy during those 3-4 hours - some days you have it - other days you don't. The biggest thing is you came out of it pretty much intact and that's a testiment to your training. You can either pay for it before the race or pay in the days/weeks after.

Dave

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

ow.

4:17:50ish

 

[underhandtofirst]

Nice job - still a hell of a run IMO. Ah, the suckiness of the marathon - anything can happy during those 3-4 hours - some days you have it - other days you don't. The biggest thing is you came out of it pretty much intact and that's a testiment to your training. You can either pay for it before the race or pay in the days/weeks after.

Dave

Thanks very much. When they started acting up I was thinking well at least I can cruise to 3:25. Um, no My heart rate was a flat line the entire race at 159-161, which was higher than I expected, but my breathing was very comfortable. Early on I realized my comfortable pace was 7:42-7:45.

As I started slowing down because of the arches and hamstring my HR slowed to 155 so I know that I had a lot more in the tank. Dave I had your advice in my head the entire race about staying comfortable and watching my breathing. I was hoping to do you proud my putting on a mad dash from 18, but it just wasnt there.

Wait 'til next year. Spoken like a true Sox fan pre-2004!


There is no such thing as a Fake Edit, I am just an idiot who can't figure out how to put a secondary thought into my posts without this crutch: Steve...4:17...wow, nice work!!! I'm a bit happier now hearing that you beat your goal. Or should I say crushed your goal!

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Now that was a disappointing run. I finished in 3:31:45 after going through the half in 1:41. Both arches were KILLING me the last 9 miles which just piled on top of the sore hamstring I had from mile 3 on. I felt so strong even with the sore hamstring through 14 and was starting to reel people in the next 4 miles.

My legs feel tired and a little bit sore, but nothing like they should after 26 miles. It was just so disappointing to not feel 100% on a terrific day. I was getting prepared to put on a push to go sub 3:20 around 18 and my arches started acting up so instead of going down to 7:25 I went up to 8:45/mi.

My mistake was using my speed training shoes for the race. I did do a 22 miler with the and I dont recall these problems. Got to be better about testing them out next race. There's always next year.

"Goal" is such a loose term. For instance, I noticed around the fifth mile that I was running a comfortable pace at just under 9:00, and I got it into my head that I might be able to finish in under 4 hours (about a 9:10 pace I think). I kept that 9:00 pace up until after the 14th mile marker - which actually means I ran the first half of the marathon at a faster pace than the half marathon I did in May. So at least I really have improved.

Sadly, it all fell apart after that. I just could not keep my legs moving like that, and I started having to walk every mile. So I did the second half at around 10:40. I guess we're both the Mike Lowells of marathons this year. I turned it up for the last mile or two, and really ran on the warning track, so I finished strong. Not a big fan of having to run over two bullpen mounds at the end, though.

I, too, think I need better shoes for racing. It felt like I was barefoot for the last 10 miles.

Also, if any terrorists wants to destroy the Tyngsboro bridge, be my guest. I don't know how I didn't die from slipping on that metal walkway, especially with it shaking from the traffic.

 

[BleacherFan]

ow.

4:17:50ish

Good job! This was your first marathon, right? Hopefully you also came out of it unscathed and don't get discouraged. The experience you got from this will go a long way to your next.

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Good job! This was your first marathon, right? Hopefully you also came out of it unscathed and don't get discouraged. The experience you got from this will go a long way to your next.

I'm never running again.




Until Thursday.

 

[BleacherFan]

I'm never running again.
Until Thursday.

Heh, I think every marathon I've run, about mile 20 I've said to myself 'this is my last one'. Give yourself enough recovery time - the Hanson's can't run for two weeks after their marathons - they can only do other cardio stuff.

Nice to see a very deep field for the half marathon also - six people going sub 70:00 is crazy - that time can win 80% of halfs.

 

[sass a thon]

good job guys! Completing a marathon, no matter the time, is an impressive feat.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Things I learned from this marathon:

Pre race:
Prerace meal of 2 small bagels with butter and 12oz of gatorade about 2 hours before race time was good.
Chicken Parm dinner at 99 the night before was good too.
Need a better warmup routine. Burned too much time in the bathroom line.
I need to get a longer jog in to get warm then get a good stretch in, I didnt leave enough time
After stretching do some strides or at least some faster running (still below race pace) just to get a feel for the pace
Get to the race min 60-75 mins early instead of 45, traffic sucked.
Drinking 12-16oz of water was helpful

Race:
Pacing felt good, I really have to get closer to the starting line. It took 22 seconds to cross the starting line and I got caught behind some slower runners and went through the first mile in 8:09. Didnt waste energy jumping around, so that was a positive.
I suck at drinking out of a cup while running. I ended up stopping for about 5-10 seconds to drink water/gatorade quickly. This worked well and I never felt like I lost much time and I got the liquid I needed. Hydration was never a problem.
Taking gels at 9, 14, 19 and 24 worked well
Legs didnt start to feel tired until 16 or 17, so training was good. The workouts where I alternated tempo and race pace really helped.

Equipment:
Tunes were good
Time to go to a real running store and get fitted for training and racing shoes. I have had some good and bad experiences and its time to put the knowledge to good use.
Weather was perfect (45-52) so no problems with clothing

Post Race:
I was able to use neighbor's outdoor jacuzzi last night. I felt like running after I got out (well, not that good), stairs werent a huge problem either. This morning was a different story, but I expected that.
Eat better just after the race. I felt like I was catching up the rest of the day.

Going forward:
Need to run more miles. Keep the long run each weekend of 12-16 miles and stay in the 35-40mpw range to allow for solid base for next year. It's time to bump it up to 55 per week next year.
Need to get tougher. Didnt have a chance to really push the pace this year, but I have to be ready next year.
Run more races to fine tune prerace routine and to get mentally prepared for late race pain
Lose some more weight. I ran at 174.5 this year which was pretty good as I came down from 183 early in the year. try to get under 170 by the spring and to the mid 160s for next year's race.
Try strategy to run 3-5 long runs with last 1/4 to 3/4 of run at race pace (McMillan long run strategy every other week or so)
Test running shoes more. The mileage on this pair was ok (~150), but maybe more long run experience on them would have been helpful.
Get more sleep during training. Take advantage of the DVR and dont stay up until 12 watching the Sox game. Especially when I have to get up at 5am to run.

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Need a better warmup routine. Burned too much time in the bathroom line.
I need to get a longer jog in to get warm then get a good stretch in, I didnt leave enough time
After stretching do some strides or at least some faster running (still below race pace) just to get a feel for the pace
Get to the race min 60-75 mins early instead of 45, traffic sucked.

Ditto.

Pacing felt good, I really have to get closer to the starting line. It took 22 seconds to cross the starting line and I got caught behind some slower runners and went through the first mile in 8:09. Didnt waste energy jumping around, so that was a positive.

Woops, sorry! B) I was definitely one of those runners. I got to the starting line late and I didn't see how to get to the back, so I had to go in from the front and couldn't get back very far. I let all the leaders go by, but I crossed the line after 7 seconds. And then got passed by everybody.

Time to go to a real running store and get fitted for training and racing shoes. I have had some good and bad experiences and its time to put the knowledge to good use.

Double ditto.

 

[underhandtofirst]

This is how we get Dave into the BayState Marathon!

Lowell Sun link

Coddaire said a post-race meeting will include how another 1,000 runners can be accommodated in the event the BayState Marathon is selected the New England Grand Prix race. "We just keep building a little bit at a time," he said.

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

At the race's completion, about 40 yards from the finish line, Pai, 30, got down on one knee and proposed to the 29-year-old Nakhur to the wild cheers of hundreds of spectators inside LeLacheur Park.

Nakhur said yes.

Damn, I hope she helped him stand back up after accepting.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Damn, I hope she helped him stand back up after accepting.

Did he get down on one knee on purpose or did he wipe out on one of the bullpen mounds and tried to look smooth by turning it into a proposal?

 

[PT Sox Fan]

The mileage on this pair was ok (~150), but maybe more long run experience on them would have been helpful.

This concerns me a little bit. I'm running the Marine Corps Marathon in 2 weeks, and I've been breaking in a new pair recently (only have about 30 miles on them), and they just haven't felt "right" yet. I'm tempted to go with an older pair now, but I know the issues that could come up there, as well.

I'll wash down my pre-race pasta dinner with a bottle of Ultra Fuel, and I'll have another bottle the morning of the race. Good stuff, if you're looking for a marathon drink.

 

[underhandtofirst]

This concerns me a little bit. I'm running the Marine Corps Marathon in 2 weeks, and I've been breaking in a new pair recently (only have about 30 miles on them), and they just haven't felt "right" yet. I'm tempted to go with an older pair now, but I know the issues that could come up there, as well.

I'll wash down my pre-race pasta dinner with a bottle of Ultra Fuel, and I'll have another bottle the morning of the race. Good stuff, if you're looking for a marathon drink.

Last year I had a pair that from the second I put them on they felt great (NB 754). I was up to about 200 miles on them and bought a second pair about 3 weeks before the marathon and broke those in. I think they had 40-50 miles on them when I went to the starting line. I had zero problems with them. This year I tried to go with a lighter shoe (NB 901) for speedwork and racing and another for all other runs (NB 755). Actually, I got 2 pairs of the 755 so I could alternate each day.

I did have some minor issues with my arches getting sore with the 901 that I used in the race, but it would always go away after a couple miles. I've found that once I get over 300 miles on a pair my knees start to hurt a bit. I ran both 754 pairs until 300 then started alternating in the 755 until I got to about 30 miles then I retired my 754 pairs around 350 miles. I got a second 755 pair that is now part of my rotation. Once I switched to the new shoes from the old 754 I felt my knee issues went away.

How many miles are on your "old" pair?

I meant to have gatorade just before the start of the race, but my timing was all messed up and I didnt want to have it so close to the start.

 

[BleacherFan]

This year I tried to go with a lighter shoe (NB 901) for speedwork and racing and another for all other runs (NB 755). Actually, I got 2 pairs of the 755 so I could alternate each day.

Ironically I picked up a pair of 901s a few months ago (I have about 95 miles on them so far) - overall did you like them? So far so good for me - they have a been a decent shoe for me, but I wouldn't categorize them as light - aren't they close to 11oz? If you want to get some nice shoes for speed work you may want to look at getting some nice racers - I like the Saucony FastTwitch.

Coddaire said a post-race meeting will include how another 1,000 runners can be accommodated in the event the BayState Marathon is selected the New England Grand Prix race. "We just keep building a little bit at a time," he said.

Mark's in a tough spot on this one - when it comes to USATF events you need to guarantee a certain amount of money for purses and he just doesn't have the sponsorship that the Cape has (Sovegiern Bank, New Balance and D&D). It can drain a director's pocket sometimes. The elections are up in November so it will be interesting to see if he bids on the marathon. Last year there was talk that he was going to but the last minute he was 'influenced' to drop.

Need to run more miles. Keep the long run each weekend of 12-16 miles and stay in the 35-40mpw range to allow for solid base for next year. It's time to bump it up to 55 per week next year.
Need to get tougher. Didnt have a chance to really push the pace this year, but I have to be ready next year.
Run more races to fine tune prerace routine and to get mentally prepared for late race pain

It's all about the miles - that's for sure. Miles, Miles, Miles. I should go back in my logs but in each marathon I've done, I've increased my average MPW and hadn't done anything else (hill repeats/track,etc) and has resulted in PRs. Especially on the long runs, it's important to get those slow twitch muscles built - and that only happens on runs roughly 2hr+. Also one of my favorite things I've been doing lately are progression runs - it teaches your body to run faster while tired. If on your long runs you bang out 3-4 of the last miles

One other thing - don't be afraid of heavy milage - it's what helps you as you hit the wall later in the race.

I'm glad you guys learned a lot already

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Also one of my favorite things I've been doing lately are progression runs - it teaches your body to run faster while tired. If on your long runs you bang out 3-4 of the last miles

Is that the same as tempos?

 

[underhandtofirst]

Ironically I picked up a pair of 901s a few months ago (I have about 95 miles on them so far) - overall did you like them? So far so good for me - they have a been a decent shoe for me, but I wouldn't categorize them as light - aren't they close to 11oz? If you want to get some nice shoes for speed work you may want to look at getting some nice racers - I like the Saucony FastTwitch.

They are lighter than everything else I have used. IIRC NB 901=10.9oz, 754=11.4 and 755=11.5. I wanted to try NB 825 which are closer to 9oz, but the NB outlet in Lawrence didnt have them. Notice a theme here....cheap shoes I thought about trying Marx Running in Acton where I got my race number to try some different brands and maybe talk to someone who actually runs. I dont think many of the people in the NB outlet are actual runners.

I havent been a huge fan of the 901s. Similar to PT a couple posts back, they havent been just "right". It may be they dont exactly match my running style. For the most part they were good, but I found a few workouts when my feet hurt for a mile or two. Usually they were ok. And then I had the arch issue in the race. As soon as I took them off my feet felt better.

One other thing - don't be afraid of heavy milage - it's what helps you as you hit the wall later in the race.

Last year I maxed out at 39.9 miles and felt on the verge of getting injured. This year I built up my base pre-training cycle including going from 4 to 5 days of running per week and I now feel that 30 miles in a week is cake. I'm also a lot more used to running 12+ miles each long run. Last year after doing a training run of >12 miles my legs would be wiped the rest of the day and really sore the following day. This year the only time it carried over was after tempo workouts and even then it went away after a nice 3-4 mile recovery run the next day.

I'm looking forward to being able to do 50-60 mile weeks. It will help continue my transformation from a 400m/800m guy in HS to a long distance runner in my 30s. It's also nice and relaxing to run through different parts of the area.


Random aside. I wish I could have seen the half marathon. There were some pretty sick times and the finish sounded pretty exciting.

 

[BleacherFan]

Is that the same as tempos?

Yes, although there are a few type of tempos, I mostly focus on my PMP which is 6:15-6:25. I like to start my long runs out at about 6:40-6:50 pace and finish up around that pace. Since I don't have a Garmin it's tough to get mile by mile splits but as long as I finish faster the 2nd half I'm happy. If I only have time for 4-5 miles, I like to do them around 5:50-6:00 pace which is about 10 seconds faster than my planned 1/2 pace. If I am doing speed work, I try to do them at my planned 5k pace.

 

[BleacherFan]

They are lighter than everything else I have used. IIRC NB 901=10.9oz, 754=11.4 and 755=11.5. I wanted to try NB 825 which are closer to 9oz, but the NB outlet in Lawrence didnt have them. Notice a theme here....cheap shoes I thought about trying Marx Running in Acton where I got my race number to try some different brands and maybe talk to someone who actually runs. I dont think many of the people in the NB outlet are actual runners.

I hear ya - that's why I go there also :fap: . I got a pair of 661s and 901s for like 60$ - you can't beat that for some training shoes. I just wouldn't run a race in them or run over 12-13 miles in them - even I splurge for race/long run shoes - it's just not worth getting hurt over.

For starters you should definitely get a gait analysis. Mark may have the treadmill at his store and I know Runners Edge in Melrose has it as well. Before you go buying nice shoes, get your form down. Once you get whether you're a neutral, pronator you can focus on brand/style. Personally if you're a neutral runner, I swear by Asics - you may want to give them a shot.

I'm looking forward to being able to do 50-60 mile weeks. It will help continue my transformation from a 400m/800m guy in HS to a long distance runner in my 30s. It's also nice and relaxing to run through different parts of the area.
Random aside. I wish I could have seen the half marathon. There were some pretty sick times and the finish sounded pretty exciting.

50-60 would be a good increase for you and I bet you would see a nice decrease in your time. I forget if you did or not, but I also like to do a 1/2 marathon about 5-6 weeks before my marathon to get me a nice idea of how my training is going. Some people do this at planned marathon pace, some people do it all out - I've done both and I prefer it at a slower pace if I can contain myself.

Yes, Benjamin has been running really well, and it's definitely deep when he finished #6. Crazy talent. Here are a couple of blogs of runners I have mentioned - (these guys put me to shame).

Casey's log
Nate's log

 

[underhandtofirst]

Those blogs are pretty interesting. I get a kick out of Casey's 20 mile runs where he runs like a metronome. His splits are within a couple seconds of 6 mins/mi for the entire run.

Dave, I was looking back at the John Carson 2 mile on July 4th and was amazed by the quality of the top runners in the race. Patrick Tarpy has run a sub 4 min mile on a couple occasions! He beat out Nate Jenkins (no slouch!) and even your pal Ben was 6th or something. It is a unique distance, but the race seems to attract some serious talent each year.

My legs are doing pretty well so I'm going to do a nice easy 4 miles tomorrow, maybe do 30 or so mins on an eliptical machine on Sat then 8 miles on Sunday. From there I'd like to get back into my 5 days a week and get the long run into the 12-16 range on a weekly basis so I can stay in the 40 miles per week range. I'm probably going to dial down the intensity over the next couple months. I'm still planning on running the super5k if they have it. How are some of those weekly racing series (Wakefield)? My schedule will probably only allow me to run a race every other month next year. If I can find easy races to get into in the Lowell area I might be able to do more.

Other races I'm considering:
Thanksgiving 5k in Lowell 11/22
Super 5k 2/3
Cool Kids 5k in Billerica 4/28 or 29 - judging by the times I might finish top 3, heh heh
Westford 5k or 10k in early May
Maybe some of the summer Lowell 5k series, each has a different theme, which are best?
John Carson 2 mile 7/4 - this year might be a walk with kids though
Swanzey Half Marathon (Labor day weekend) - this might be a nice test pace for Bay State next year
Bay State 10/13 - I WILL run 3:15!!!!

My main goal is to run 3:15 next October, but I'd like to include some 5k's along the way for fun and race experience. Also, I'd like to break 20 mins (PR is 20:36). I'm a little hesitant to build my own program right now. I'd like to take one online and update it a little. For example, I'm considering taking Hal Higdon's advanced 5k program and just bumping the mileage a bit to keep me in the flow of the longer (2+ hour) runs.

Any other 5k programs people like?

 

[BleacherFan]

Those blogs are pretty interesting. I get a kick out of Casey's 20 mile runs where he runs like a metronome. His splits are within a couple seconds of 6 mins/mi for the entire run.

Casey definitely does his own thing - that's for sure. Definitely one of the more 'loosey-goosey' OT qualifiers but hey, you run a 2:15 I can't argue with any of his training

Dave, I was looking back at the John Carson 2 mile on July 4th and was amazed by the quality of the top runners in the race. Patrick Tarpy has run a sub 4 min mile on a couple occasions! He beat out Nate Jenkins (no slouch!) and even your pal Ben was 6th or something. It is a unique distance, but the race seems to attract some serious talent each year.

Yes, I think for two reasons, one there is prize money (and extra money for breaking the course record). The other reason I think is that the Merrimack valley historically produces really successful runners and this has become a pretty popular tradition for people to come back and run at.

My legs are doing pretty well so I'm going to do a nice easy 4 miles tomorrow, maybe do 30 or so mins on an eliptical machine on Sat then 8 miles on Sunday. From there I'd like to get back into my 5 days a week and get the long run into the 12-16 range on a weekly basis so I can stay in the 40 miles per week range. I'm probably going to dial down the intensity over the next couple months. I'm still planning on running the super5k if they have it. How are some of those weekly racing series (Wakefield)? My schedule will probably only allow me to run a race every other month next year. If I can find easy races to get into in the Lowell area I might be able to do more.

That's excellent news - get all that lactic acid out and you'll be as good as new. The Wakefield series aren't anything spectacular - they don't get that many people but it's a nice fast/flat course to run. As far as weekly series goes, I would try to make that a tempo/speed day. Are you talking about winter weekly series or Spring? In the winter they are slim, I'm not sure about the Wakefield series but there is no Winter Goodtimes at all. There are a couple of options around here: Khourey's in Somerville and the Fudgicle Series in Tewksbury. Khourey's is every Thursday night and the Fudgicle series is every Saturday AM during the winter. In the Spring, GoodTimes pops up around April as well. As far as races go, check out coolrunning's site but there aren't many races from after Thanksgiving until around March (March there is an Irish Feet race I'm pretty sure in Lowell).

My main goal is to run 3:15 next October, but I'd like to include some 5k's along the way for fun and race experience. Also, I'd like to break 20 mins (PR is 20:36). I'm a little hesitant to build my own program right now. I'd like to take one online and update it a little. For example, I'm considering taking Hal Higdon's advanced 5k program and just bumping the mileage a bit to keep me in the flow of the longer (2+ hour) runs.

Any other 5k programs people like?

I don't like those programs either - I don't like being locked into milage and/or paces. If you get a nice solid base of 40mpw and get the consistent long runs you will be golden.

Speaking of milage, I tried looking up my old logs through my paperwork and I found the following info:
(formatting f-ed up)

Date/Marathon Average 12wk weeklymilage Finishing Time Notes:
Fall 04 Marathon (Cape) 35 3:29:58 Knee inflammation - no running for 3 months
Fall 05 Marathon (Baystate) 50 3:04:42 No ill effects
Spring 06 (Boston) 48 3:02 Knee inflamation/quad tendonitits - no running for 3 mos'
Spring 07 (Boston) 85 2:49 No ill effects

I was grossly under prepared for a tough course at the Cape and I was grossly unprepared for Boston 06 - in fact I got hurt over training in March which really left me hurting again. The funny thing is after I really upped my milage in mid 2006 I haven't been hurt at all. I really am starting to think I am more prone to getting hurt when running hard on less milage. <knock of wood> I'll be the first to admit I train very hard.

Just some evidence I have that shows that the more milage, the better prepared the less injured. Obviously everything in moderation - don't go past the 10% rule on milage.

 

[underhandtofirst]

I was grossly under prepared for a tough course at the Cape and I was grossly unprepared for Boston 06 - in fact I got hurt over training in March which really left me hurting again. The funny thing is after I really upped my milage in mid 2006 I haven't been hurt at all. I really am starting to think I am more prone to getting hurt when running hard on less milage. <knock of wood> I'll be the first to admit I train very hard.

Just some evidence I have that shows that the more milage, the better prepared the less injured. Obviously everything in moderation - don't go past the 10% rule on milage.

This summer was better about alternating hard and easy days. If I did a long run, tempo run or speed work I tried to take a day off or run easy (3-4 miles) at a minute or so above race pace. Occasionally, I'd end up doing two hard days in a row, but I made sure I wasnt wiping myself out on the first day. I only got a small calf injury mid way through and that was more a function of being too tight in the morning and stepping wrong off a sidewalk early in a run. I missed 3 days and got back doing easy runs and within 7 days I was back running normally.

I dont see myself going over 60 mpw. I just dont have the time. I was getting up at 4 and 5am to run before work a few times per week. My schedule really requires a couple days of no running so I can be flexible with workouts. I should get a treadmill, I used to have one for years but it finally burned out. Also, I ended up running at 9pm and then I was wired all night!

Hopefully Steve is feeling better and giving himself the rest he needs to come back strong.

PT, did you work out your shoe issue?

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Hopefully Steve is feeling better and giving himself the rest he needs to come back strong.

Right now I'm back to feeling like I just ran a 20-mile training run instead of a 26 mile race. We'll see how I feel tomorrow morning and I might hit the elliptical - that thing always gets the kinks out and makes me feel better.

My sister wants me to run a 3-miler on Sunday. I'm hesitant because it's one I've done before and I'll be tempted to try and beat my time.

 

[Frisbetarian]

Other races I'm considering:
Thanksgiving 5k in Lowell 11/22
Super 5k 2/3
Cool Kids 5k in Billerica 4/28 or 29 - judging by the times I might finish top 3, heh heh
Westford 5k or 10k in early May
Maybe some of the summer Lowell 5k series, each has a different theme, which are best?
John Carson 2 mile 7/4 - this year might be a walk with kids though
Swanzey Half Marathon (Labor day weekend) - this might be a nice test pace for Bay State next year
Bay State 10/13 - I WILL run 3:15!!!!

With very little time before the Sox start (and tons I would like to say in this thread), I would like to suggest the Around Cape Ann 25K New England Championships replace the Swazney Half in your schedule on Labor Day. The race goes around Cape Ann (duh) through Gloucester and Rockport, and has beautiful scenery and tons of hills. More importantly, the post race parties are awesome.

I ran this race for 16 straight years, the last 4 pushing my son. I also ran the course multiple times on Sundays in the winter as a training run for Boston (with Bluepoint Specials afterward). I cannot recommend this race/route enough.

 

[BleacherFan]

With very little time before the Sox start (and tons I would like to say in this thread), I would like to suggest the Around Cape Ann 25K New England Championships replace the Swazney Half in your schedule on Labor Day. The race goes around Cape Ann (duh) through Gloucester and Rockport, and has beautiful scenery and tons of hills. More importantly, the post race parties are awesome.

I ran this race for 16 straight years, the last 4 pushing my son. I also ran the course multiple times on Sundays in the winter as a training run for Boston (with Bluepoint Specials afterward). I cannot recommend this race/route enough.

Good call Fris - that would be about 6 weeks out from Baystate which should be good for recovery if you choose to run this at full effort. The hills will humble you and make Baystate seem like a net downhill :angry:

 

[underhandtofirst]

With very little time before the Sox start (and tons I would like to say in this thread), I would like to suggest the Around Cape Ann 25K New England Championships replace the Swazney Half in your schedule on Labor Day. The race goes around Cape Ann (duh) through Gloucester and Rockport, and has beautiful scenery and tons of hills. More importantly, the post race parties are awesome.

I ran this race for 16 straight years, the last 4 pushing my son. I also ran the course multiple times on Sundays in the winter as a training run for Boston (with Bluepoint Specials afterward). I cannot recommend this race/route enough.

Thanks Fris, I might give that a shot! I run over a lot of hills where I train so it wouldnt be a totally foreign concept and the thought of running along the water is appealing too. My wife has family in that area so that might help in planning to run this event.

OK, now I'm pumped. My legs feel great and I'm going to head out on a run around the Charles River in an hour or so.

 

[PT Sox Fan]

PT, did you work out your shoe issue?

Not really. Just took a few days off. Will get in 7 tomorrow morning in the newer shoes. Race is next Sunday. I usually scale back mileage pretty heavily in the final 2 weeks, and these late-night games have made the 4:30am wake-ups a little easier to punt. Body feels good overall--will see how tomorrow goes. I didn't accurately track the mileage on my old shoes, so I'm basing their wear on visual evidence and "feel".

After this one, I'm looking for a 50K or 2 by the spring, and then want to shoot for a couple of 50-milers next year (last one was in '04). Would like to chat with any ultra runners out there or folks interested in trying ultras. They're very different.