Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

[BGrif21125]

Didn't Quintana name all his sons Carlos Quintana? Could it be one of his sons? Is Quintana the hispanic George Foreman?

[post="445685"][/post]​

The original Carlos Quintana was born in Venezuela, the boxer is from Puerto Rico, so I think it's unlikely that we have a love child connection here.
Too bad, I'm sure SoSH would've adopted him as their favorite fighter.

As for being the Hispanic Foreman, if Quintana ever starts doing infomercials for his own line of grills, I'll definitely pay up.

 

[BGrif21125]

Out in LA, James Toney weighed in at 233, Sam Peter 257.

Toney is 4 pounds lighter than what he weighed against Rahman, 233 is the same weight at which he fought John Ruiz.

OTOH, this is the heaviest Peter has ever weighed, he was 251 vs. Klitschko several months ago.

This fight isn't getting a ton of press, but I think it's an interesting clash of styles.

Also, I just read that OLN will be showing Ali-Frazier II (the least famous of the three) on thursday night at 9 PM.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Out in LA, James Toney weighed in at 233, Sam Peter 257.

Toney is 4 pounds lighter than what he weighed against Rahman, 233 is the same weight at which he fought John Ruiz.

OTOH, this is the heaviest Peter has ever weighed, he was 251 vs. Klitschko several months ago.

This fight isn't getting a ton of press, but I think it's an interesting clash of styles.

Also, I just read that OLN will be showing Ali-Frazier II (the least famous of the three) on thursday night at 9 PM.

[post="446721"][/post]​

I've been excited about this fight for a long time. It's a classic boxer-puncher matchup and a potentially fascinating and thrilling heavyweight fight. As much derision as the heavyweight division gets these days, this has been a pretty good year for heavyweight fights and the division as a whole. It started out with the Lamon Brewster-Sergei Liakhovich battle back in April which was one of the most action-packed, back-and-forth thrilling heavyweight bouts I'd seen in recent years. Up there with Lewis-Vitali Klitschko. (Note: Liakhovich makes his first defense against Shannon Briggs on Showtime, Nov. 4; it's Showtime's counter programming to the Mayweather-Baldomir pay-per-view and it should be another wild slugfest, at least for the first few rounds.)

The Rahman-Toney matchup was a bit disappointing, but at least looked intriguing going in. The Maskaev-Rahman rematch a couple weeks back was unexpectedly exciting. This year also saw the continued rise of Calvin Brock with his alarming one-punch knockout of Zuri Lawrence in February. Now Brock is getting a title shot against Wladimir Klitschko in November. Probably too much, too soon for Brock who I think needs a couple more solid performances against top 10 heavys before he's really ready for Klitschko. But we'll see. Klitschko is clearly the best heavyweight out there but he can be maddeningly inconsistent and Brock is a slick boxer who's also shown a lot of heart and respectable power.

Anyway, that brings us to tonight's fight on Showtime. The winner is supposed to get a shot at Maskaev, but I'd rather see the winner get a shot (or in Peter's case, another shot) at W. Klitschko, who's the closest thing to a "true" heavyweight champ, because in Toney and Peter you have the best pure technical boxer in the division against the best pure puncher. Whoever wins absolutely deserves an opportunity to get established as the best heavyweight in the world, not just one of the belt-holders.

My prediction: Toney by decision. I've always felt the "puncher's chance" was a bit of a myth. A great boxer beats a great puncher every time.

However -- and this is a big however -- boxing has a way of making fighers get old literally overnight. Unlike, say, baseball where it might take a whole year or two to tell if a player is really finished, in boxing it can show up in a single night. This might well be the night that Toney gets old. He's obviously carrying around a massive amount of extra weight -- the guy is 5'9" and his walking-around weight is reportedly 280 -- his lifestyle isn't what you'd calll spartan and his training regimen consists almost entirely of sparring. I don't think he bothers with running at all and does little strength and conditioning training. He's also had 77 pro fights.

On the plus side, he hasn't taken a lot of punches for a guy who's been around as long as Toney has, due to his tricky, shoulder-rolling style. It's very tough to hit him cleanly, or at all. So Peter's mission tonight is to pound Toney's doughy midsection in the first four or five rounds. If you see Peter headhunting early, trying for a spectaular knockout, I think Toney wins the fight easily. But if Peter takes his time and pounds the body with his own massive power shots, he could take away a lot of Toney's movement and set him up for a huge shot sometime in rounds 6-10. Unfortunately, I expect Peter to go for that big, early KO and put himself in a hole against a boxer who is almost infallible from a technical standpoint.

This could be a good one.

 

[5050HindSight]

Did you guys catch the Friday Night Fights last night?

Allan Green did not look that impressive against veteran Emmett Linton, but I believe it was Green's first bout vrs a southpaw. (which doesn't seem right, but nevertheless) Green won by unanimous decision, but I think that was more a benefit of him being the favored fighter, and having the hometown crowd behind him. The fight was much, much closer than that. I think Atlas scored the bout even, and the Punch Track numbers were very similar (153 of 484 landed for Green, 151 of 601 for Linton).

Aside from a flurry of punches that knocked down Linton in the 7th, Green looked very tentative in the ring, not really knowing how to attack Linton. (And both announcers pretty much said the same thing) It was also dissapointing that Green punched himself out trying to knock Linton down a second time in rnd 7, and therefore spent the last minute of the round clutching Linton.

Overall, Green showed flashes of the talent that has him so highly regarded, but I'd like to see him take a few months off (this was basically his 6th fight in the last 12 months) and hone his craft a little bit. It'll be interesting to see his next step.

 

[BGrif21125]

My prediction: Toney by decision. I've always felt the "puncher's chance" was a bit of a myth. A great boxer beats a great puncher every time.

So Peter's mission tonight is to pound Toney's doughy midsection in the first four or five rounds. If you see Peter headhunting early, trying for a spectaular knockout, I think Toney wins the fight easily. But if Peter takes his time and pounds the body with his own massive power shots, he could take away a lot of Toney's movement and set him up for a huge shot sometime in rounds 6-10. Unfortunately, I expect Peter to go for that big, early KO and put himself in a hole against a boxer who is almost infallible from a technical standpoint.

This could be a good one.

[post="447338"][/post]​

I completely agree about the myth of the puncher's chance. Boxing is just like every other sport, in that great defense always beats great offense. Toney is IMO one of the top 3 defensive fighters pound for pound in the entire sport. I'd put Floyd and Winky as the other guys in that top 3, fwiw.
The only reason that I think Peter does have a puncher's chance is that as you noted, Toney's style is based on shoulder movement, not foot movement. So even though Toney is very difficult to hit, he is usually in striking range. Also, the mummified remains of Evander Holyfield rocked Toney with several power punches in Round 1 of their fight. If Toney leaves himself open early on tonight like he did vs. Evander, he could be in trouble.
Judging by his weight, it doesn't appear that Peter has trained in preperation for a long fight. Because of this, I think he goes headhunting early looking for the spectacular KO, and if it doesn't happen, Toney will have him completely frustrated by the middle rounds. For as undisciplined as Toney is when it comes to conditioning, he is a master of the technical side of the sport. He's forgotten more about boxing than all the other heavyweight contenders know combined.
Toney by decision.

 

[BGrif21125]

I had Toney winning rounds 2,4,6,7,8,9,11.
I gave Peter 1,3,5,10,12.
Factor in the Peter point deduction in Round 9 for that hilarious double punch to the side of the head, and I had it 115-112 for Toney.
I thought 7,8,11 were all relatively close, so it's understandable if the judges gave 2 of those to Peter. I gave all 3 to Toney.
Still, the 116-111 verdicts for Peter are a joke. With the point deduction, those two judges are saying that Peter won 9 of the 12 rounds. Toney clearly won 2,4,6 and 9, that's four rounds right there. 114-113 Peter would be a questionable, but acceptable score, but not 116-111.

I think the judges may have been swayed by the fact that many times Peter threw punches that moved Toney backwards, even though they weren't landing. Toney was blocking Peter's shots with his arms, but the force of the punch was pushing him back, giving the impression that they were landing. But they weren't.

OTOH, it was 12 rounds of target practice for Toney's left jab. He simply couldn't miss.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I had Toney winning rounds 2,4,6,7,8,9,11.
I gave Peter 1,3,5,10,12.
Factor in the Peter point deduction in Round 9 for that hilarious double punch to the side of the head, and I had it 115-112 for Toney.
I thought 7,8,11 were all relatively close, so it's understandable if the judges gave 2 of those to Peter. I gave all 3 to Toney.
Still, the 116-111 verdicts for Peter are a joke. With the point deduction, those two judges are saying that Peter won 9 of the 12 rounds. Toney clearly won 2,4,6 and 9, that's four rounds right there. 114-113 Peter would be a questionable, but acceptable score, but not 116-111.

I think the judges may have been swayed by the fact that many times Peter threw punches that moved Toney backwards, even though they weren't landing. Toney was blocking Peter's shots with his arms, but the force of the punch was pushing him back, giving the impression that they were landing. But they weren't.

OTOH, it was 12 rounds of target practice for Toney's left jab. He simply couldn't miss.

[post="448051"][/post]​

I haven't watched the fight a second time yet, which is when I usually score close fights for myself, but 115-112 Toney sounds about right. But Peter came on strong at the end of almost every round and I could see that swaying judges. I think a reasonable case can be made that Peter won the fight, so I don't count this one as a robbery or a gross miscarriage of justice. But I agree, 9 rounds to 3 seems a little extreme.

Those two judges must have really been giving Peter the benefit of the doubt for his heavier, more spectacular punching. When those shots landed, they landed big. I don't care what Toney says, he was rocked several times in that fight and how he never went down seems incredible. But Toney clearly controlled much of the fight with his jab.

I think there's a trend among judges recently to give extra credit for big shots and to be a lot less generous with fighters who rely on their jab. Look at Winky Wright's performance against Jermaine Taylor earlier this year. Similar to Toney, Winky was a sniper with his jab, but Taylor landed -- or at least threw -- the bigger, harder more daring punches. As did Peter last night. Seems to me that, rightly or wrongly, boxing judges are favoring that latter in many recent fights.

Did you guys catch the Friday Night Fights last night?

Allan Green did not look that impressive against veteran Emmett Linton, but I believe it was Green's first bout vrs a southpaw. (which doesn't seem right, but nevertheless) Green won by unanimous decision, but I think that was more a benefit of him being the favored fighter, and having the hometown crowd behind him. The fight was much, much closer than that. I think Atlas scored the bout even, and the Punch Track numbers were very similar (153 of 484 landed for Green, 151 of 601 for Linton).

Aside from a flurry of punches that knocked down Linton in the 7th, Green looked very tentative in the ring, not really knowing how to attack Linton. (And both announcers pretty much said the same thing) It was also dissapointing that Green punched himself out trying to knock Linton down a second time in rnd 7, and therefore spent the last minute of the round clutching Linton.

I'm with you. Green definitely got the benefit of some "home cooking," though I did think he won the fight. He didn't look spectacular even though Linton's southpaw style didn't seem to be confusing him all that much. Linto was just very fast and more experienced. It was a much closer fight than the scorecards indicated. Green certainly didn't look like "the top prospect in boxing" as Joe Tessitore called him. I've seena bunch of Green's fights and I'd call him A top prospect, but he's still rough around the edges, gets hit too much and too cleanly and needs to fight a few fights outside of his home state. 14 of his 22 fights and hi last 9 in a row have all been on OK. Obvioulsy that's where he's going to make the most money, but I'd like to see him take on another good prospect or even a lower top 10 super-middle somewhere else.

How about Green-Manfredo in Providence? That would be fun.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Just to follow up, having watched the fight again and scored it, I ended up with a draw! 114-114.

I gave Toney rounds 1, 2, 6, 7 & 11.

I gave Peter 3, 5, 8, 10 & 12.

I scored round 4 even 10-10.

Due to the point deduction against Peter, I had Round 9 scored 9-9.

So on my scorecard, the point deduction cost Peter the fight. Of course, I could have scored Round 4 for Toney or Peter, giving the winner of that round the fight.

While the two judges who score the fight 116-111 for Peter seem like they're coming from left field, watching the fight again, I don't see them as completely outrageous. Both rounds 1 and 2 were close. You could make a case for either going to Peter. If you give Peter Round 4 outright rather than scoring it even, the final score is 116-111 for Peter. Not saying I agree with that score, of course, but I don't see it as being as crazy as people are saying.

You can see the master scorecard for the actual judges's scores right here.

 

[BGrif21125]

You can see the master scorecard for the actual judges's scores right here.

[post="448607"][/post]​

I scored the fight identically round-by-round as the one judge who gave the edge to Toney.
Have you been able to find the punchstats anywhere? Showtime didn't show any punch landed/thrown numbers the entire night, which drove me nuts. Do they always do that? I just subscribed to Showtime in the last few months, but I never noticed the absence of punchstats before.

I think there's a trend among judges recently to give extra credit for big shots and to be a lot less generous with fighters who rely on their jab.

You may be onto something here. I can't say I'm sold on that style of judging however. I like watching aggressive punching as much as anyone, and in most cases I think a fighter should be rewarded if he's throwing bigger punches AND is the one moving forward.
But here's what I don't like about the judging in this fight:
1. Toney may have been the one doing the boxing, but he wasn't backing up or running from Peter. He stood right in the pocket for 12 rounds against a much bigger man, and IMO got the better of the majority of the action. This wasn't a situation where he was popping the jab and then running for cover.
2. Peter showed no defense whatsoever. All he did the entire night was throw big shots, while showing no ability to stop what was coming back at him. OTOH, during the rounds in which Toney dictated the action, he was both landing effectively and showing great defensive skills. IMO that should count for something.

I'll admit that I'm biased here, Toney is one of my favorite fighters, and I am partial to his style, since I really value guys who emphasize the "sweet science" aspect of the sport. But I agree with the assessment that this decision isn't highway robbery, it was close enough where it could potentially go either way.

P.S. Toney's, "How could I lose, I don't look all messed up and ugly like Larry Holmes" quote was one of the best post-fight remarks I've heard in a long time.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

One other note: there was another big fight this weekend. Over in England, Clinton Woods and Glen "The Road Warrior" Johnson fought for the third time, this time for the IBF light-heavyweight title. The fight was not shown on U.S. TV but the whole thing is available on YouTube. Just do a search for "Clinton Woods" or "Glen Johnson."


Reportedly, the fight was a thriller, ending in another controversial split decision. Here is a write-up of the fight. I'm looking forward to watching it. Supposedly the winner is in line to fight Joe Calzaghe -- but who isn't these days?

 

[eddiew112]

Any of you guys looking to attend Manfredo-Spina? Not often two belt contenders from NE get to fight each other. Both guys are Italian, reeks of old-time crowd!

 

[BGrif21125]

Any of you guys looking to attend Manfredo-Spina? Not often two belt contenders from NE get to fight each other. Both guys are Italian, reeks of old-time crowd!

[post="449975"][/post]​

This is at the Civic Center (I refuse to call it the Dunkin Donuts Center) on HBO, correct?

I've never heard of Spina, I haven't followed local RI sports too closely since I moved away, is he any good?
Checking boxrec.com, he's 29 years old and his last fight was at the Cape Cod Melody Talent, so I'm assuming he's not that highly regarded.

If I happened to be back home visiting at the time, I'd probably go, but I don't see that happening.
I'm planning on getting tix to see Klitschko at MSG in November instead.

 

[BGrif21125]

Revisiting the up and coming fighter discussion, has anyone seen Amir Khan fight? He's a 19 year old, 140 pounder from England. He scored a 1st round KO on the Woods-Johnson undercard, and Rafael said in his weekend scorecard article that Khan may be the #1 prospect in all of boxing. Pretty strong words.
England could certainly use a young superstar fighter, since Prince Naseem ran away from the sport 5 years ago. Ya I know Hatton is around, but I think we all know he has flaws.

Here's two clips I found on youtube, first is his KO from last weekend, second one is from the '04 olympics, when he was 17. Looks a little reckless offensively, but then again he's only a teenager.
Clip 1
Clip 2

 

[5050HindSight]

I'm with you Grif, it was really frustrating watching the Toney-Peter fight, and not having ANY punch stat numbers. And i really liked the announcers for showtime, much better than the HBO crew at any rate. (Does Larry Merchant even like boxing anymore? He's like the Peter May of boxing)

Anyway, it was a close fight, and I was happy with the decision because I was rooting for Peter, though I don't think any outcome (draw, toney win, peter win) would have been suspect. Where do the judges sit for these fights, and what type of angles do they have? Is one judge on a different side of the ring? Do they have a view similar to the camera's view, or an above the ring view? I think this would be very important. Say you are a judge looking at Peter's back, he throws a punch and Toney goes back a foot...i think it would be very easy to give Peter credit for a scoring blow there. However, if you were looking from the side, you might notice that Toney was simply "rolling with the punch" so to speak, not really absorbing any of the force, but rather getting out of the way. It might be difficult for the judges to differentiate. I can't think of another fighter who defends that way. Most boxers prefer to block the punch or get out of the way with their feet. While Toney tended to get out of the way with his head/shoulders. It might be harder, depending on the angle, to tell a landed punch from a punch that doesn't do any damage.

That being said, Peter had no defense whatsoever, but Toney could not hurt him either. Sure he bloodied him a little, but it didn't appear that much if any damage was done.

I was also really impressed by Peter's improvement since the Klitchsko fight. He looked very raw in that fight, and he had absolutely no stamina. He was in much better shape for the Toney fight (despite his weight) and I thought he showed some more offensive skill rather than just brute force. (He's still very raw, but with Klitchsko, Peter showed 90% brute force/10% skill, whereas against toney he was closer to 70%/30%.) When you consider he is only 25, I really think he could be the future of this division, especially if his skillset keeps inproving.

BTW... I was watching a replay of some fight this weekend (i watched a few) and they had a brief interview with Tarver after he lost to Hopkins. Merchant asked Tarver something like why he looked so bad against Hopkins, and Tarver's reply was that Hopkins is so good that he makes everyone look bad, then he said what I thought was one of the best ways to describe Hopkins:

"Hopkins against Hopkins would make Hopkins look bad"

 

[BGrif21125]

And i really liked the announcers for showtime, much better than the HBO crew at any rate. (Does Larry Merchant even like boxing anymore? He's like the Peter May of boxing)

[post="450586"][/post]​

Larry does seem to be a little crankier than usual lately, but I don't think he's reached May-level pessimism yet. He still appreciates a great fight as much as anyone, I think he's just less patient with the slow fights. He'll get to watch some great fights starting with Barrera-Juarez and going right through November's loaded schedule, I think he'll be more energetic on those telecasts. Watching Merchant's post-fight interviews is still great. Everytime he asks his first question, the fighter always starts off by thanking God and his promoters, and Larry always starts rolling his eyes and then after a few seconds he blatantly cuts the fighter off and tells him to answer the damn question. Guaranteed comedy every single time. And "Drink one hurricane and you feel like Larry Merchant" is still one of the 2 or 3 greatest lines that Sportsguy has ever written.

I like Lampley a lot as a play-by-play guy. I really like the work Al Bernstein does as a color guy on Showtime. I also like how Showtime has the three media members score the fight. Lederman is fairly accurate but it's nice to have more than one opinion. But the lack of punchstats from Showtime made me want to poke my eyeballs out. I can't fathom how they can do a broadcast and not include that.
The crew that is really bad is the new Boxing After Dark team on HBO. Fran Charles has the charisma of a brick wall. I like Kellerman, but I think he's better suited to being a studio commentator (he was great on FNF for espn) than for actually calling a fight ringside. I assume he's the heir apparent for when Merchant finally keels over.
I would also love to see Brian Kenny get a job for HBO or Showtime someday, he was a great anchor alongside Kellerman on FNF, but I assume he's locked into ESPN for quite awhile.

Where do the judges sit for these fights, and what type of angles do they have? Is one judge on a different side of the ring?

I've always assumed that each judge is seated ringside, each on a different side, with the second referee seated on the fourth side. That's why when a point is decucted, you see the ref signal one point to three different sides of the ring.

 

[BGrif21125]

One more thing on Toney. I guess it's not as staggering when you watch someone gain weight over a long period of time, but it's amazing when you look at pics of him as a middleweight champ alongside what he looks like now. I think he gained 20 pounds in his head alone.
He may be a hall-of-famer regardless, but if he had even one ounce of fitness discipline, he could've been one of the greatest light heavy/cruiserweights of all-time.

 

[eddiew112]

Ya I know Hatton is around, but I think we all know he has flaws.

I think Ricky is a better fighter than a lot of Americans give him credit for. Watching his tapes against Kostya and Massua, he looks impressive in both. Lets all remember that Kostya had just come off one of his great wins in his carrer, over Sharamba Mitchell. He was not over the hill, as proclaimed. Massua has a chin of stone, yet Hatton knocked him out, something Vivian Harris couldnt do. Ricky will do much better if he fights at his natural weight. He has an enormous heart, which means you can never count him out. BTW, Spina is ranked 20th by boxrec. He cant be THAT bad.

 

[5050HindSight]

I think Ricky is a better fighter than a lot of Americans give him credit for. Watching his tapes against Kostya and Massua, he looks impressive in both. Lets all remember that Kostya had just come off one of his great wins in his carrer, over Sharamba Mitchell. He was not over the hill, as proclaimed. Massua has a chin of stone, yet Hatton knocked him out, something Vivian Harris couldnt do. Ricky will do much better if he fights at his natural weight. He has an enormous heart, which means you can never count him out. BTW, Spina is ranked 20th by boxrec. He cant be THAT bad.

[post="451277"][/post]​

I think it's been mentioned on here before, but Hatton-Gatti would be a solid fight, and draw a huge crowd. Much more interesting than Hatton's next opponent Juan Urango.

 

[BGrif21125]

If Hatton wins his fight on December 9th, he's going to fight Jose Luis Castillo in early 2007, in what should be a great action fight. Castillo will be coming off suspension and will be moving up to 140.

Hatton-Gatti would be an awesome fight, but let's all hope that Gatti stays retired. He's absorbed too much punishment over the years. I don't want to see him become the next Meldrick Taylor.

 

[BGrif21125]

Can someone tell Texas that they're the only state in the country dumb enough to license this guy?
Holyfield to fight Oquendo

Here's what his promoter said:

"Evander wants to bring the title back to America," Muhammad said. "He is the great American hope to bring the titles back to this country and become five-time world champion. Oquendo is the next step for Holyfield toward reaching that goal."

Yeah, Ok.

 

[eddiew112]

This is embarrasing. Showings like this are a reason why a lot of people cannot take boxing seriously.

 

[BGrif21125]

Lots of scheduling stuff in Rafael's Friday notes (which is a weekly must-read, btw)

HBO dropped that Manfredo-Spina fight in Providence, it will be on espn2 instead.
Paul Williams will fight on the Mayweather-Baldomir undercard. He'll probably face Margarito in '07.
Right now it looks like Winky-Quartey on December 2, with Taylor-Ouma on December 9. However, Wright-Taylor are still talking about a rematch on December 2. I'd rather they just fight the other guys, and then have a rematch some other time. I've never been a fan of immediate rematches.
Hatton will get bumped to January 13 if Taylor and Wright fight separately.

So right now, Novemeber/December looks like this:

11/4: Mayweather- Baldomir, Williams vs. TBA (PPV)
11/4: Liakhovich vs. Briggs (Showtime)
11/11: Klitschko-Brock (HBO)
11/18: Pacquiao-Morales (PPV)
12/2: Wright-Quartey (HBO) (or maybe Taylor-Wright PPV)
12/2: Cotto vs. TBA, Margarito vs. TBA (Showtime)
12/9: Taylor-Ouma (HBO)

So by my count, that's 7 major cards in a six week span. The top 4 PFP fighters will all be in action. The two best divisions, 147 and 130, will both have undisputed championship fights. 147 will also have its top 3 young contenders in action (Williams, Margarito, Cotto). Also, the undisputed middleweight championship, and two portions of the heavweight belt. Holy shit.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Lots of scheduling stuff in Rafael's Friday notes (which is a weekly must-read, btw)

HBO dropped that Manfredo-Spina fight in Providence, it will be on espn2 instead.
Paul Williams will fight on the Mayweather-Baldomir undercard. He'll probably face Margarito in '07.
Right now it looks like Winky-Quartey on December 2, with Taylor-Ouma on December 9. However, Wright-Taylor are still talking about a rematch on December 2. I'd rather they just fight the other guys, and then have a rematch some other time. I've never been a fan of immediate rematches.
Hatton will get bumped to January 13 if Taylor and Wright fight separately.

So right now, Novemeber/December looks like this:

11/4: Mayweather- Baldomir, Williams vs. TBA (PPV)
11/4: Liakhovich vs. Briggs (Showtime)
11/11: Klitschko-Brock (HBO)
11/18: Pacquiao-Morales (PPV)
12/2: Wright-Quartey (HBO) (or maybe Taylor-Wright PPV)
12/2: Cotto vs. TBA, Margarito vs. TBA (Showtime)
12/9: Taylor-Ouma (HBO)

So by my count, that's 7 major cards in a six week span. The top 4 PFP fighters will all be in action. The two best divisions, 147 and 130, will both have undisputed championship fights. 147 will also have its top 3 young contenders in action (Williams, Margarito, Cotto). Also, the undisputed middleweight championship, and two portions of the heavweight belt. Holy shit.

[post="455594"][/post]​

And making it even better, it was just announced that on that Dec. 2 Showtime card, Margarito will be fighting Joshua Clottey. While Margarito should beat him, Clottey is more than a credible opponent. He's a hard-hitting, hard-headed African fighter who should give Margarito quite a battle. I was worried that the Showtime Margarito-Cotto doubleheader would be just a showcase for both of them, leading up to a showdown between the two of them in the spring. But Margarito's showing a lot of guts in taking on Clottey. This won't be an easy fight.

Now let's see who Cotto is matched against. (EDIT: Vivian Harris is being discussed as an opponent. Margarito-Clottey and Cotto-Harris would be an incredible conclusion to Showtime's 20th season of "Championship Boxing.")

By the way, let's not forget about next Saturday's PPV card, headlined by the rematch between Marco Antonio Barrera and Rocky Juarez. There are also two excellent fights on the undercard: Jorge Barrios vs. Joan Guzman and Israel Vazquez vs. Jhonny Gonzalez. This is the first PPV card in a long, long while that is not only worth the $49.95, it may even be a bargain at that price.

EDIT: There's an interesting article about how "the best card of the year" came together, on MaxBoxing.com.

And while we're waiting for that one, to get through this week without televised boxing, the instantly legendary fight between Edwin Valero and Vincente Mosquera is now available in its entirety on YouTube. Just search for "Valero Mosquera".

If you don't know the deal on this one, the quick backstory is that Valero is a 24-year-old Venezuelan junior-lightweight phenom. He started his career with 18 straight first-round knockouts. In his 19th fight his streak was broken when he was "extended" to the second round before flattening his opponent. So Valero himself became an instant legend.

The problem is, several years ago, he was in a motorcycle accident without wearing a helmet. His brain scan didn't check out and he's now banned from fighting in the United States. Consequently, no one in the U.S. has seen this guy, except hardcore boxing fans who are savvy enough to find his fights on YouTube.

So, in his 20th fight he got a shot at the WBA title against the Panamanian champion Mosquera -- in Panama. The resulting 10-round slugfest became an instant frontrunner for fight of the year, even though no one televised it outside of Panama. Now the whole fight is on YouTube -- so check it out.

 

[BGrif21125]

HBO will air Joe Calzaghe's defense on October 14. Fight will be tape-delayed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=2583524

Now let's see who Cotto is matched against. (EDIT: Vivian Harris is being discussed as an opponent. Margarito-Clottey and Cotto-Harris would be an incredible conclusion to Showtime's 20th season of "Championship Boxing.")

[post="456802"][/post]​

I assumed that Cotto wouldn't fight anyone dangerous in his first fight at 147. I'll be impressed if he takes a risk and fights Harris, who was considered a top contender at 140 until he had that awful fightplan vs. Maussa on the Mayweather/Gatti undercard. That would be as exciting a doubleheader as you can find on a non-PPV telecast.

Let's assume Margarito and Cotto win, and Mayweather beats Baldomir and becomes the recognized champ. I'd assume that Margarito will fight his mandatory, Williams, since the only reason not to do that would be if he could get a big money fight against Mayweather, something that Floyd has given no indication that he's willing to do.
OTOH, Mayweather would have every reason to be interested in fighting Cotto, who has inherited much of Tito's Puerto Rico/NYC fanbase and is subsequently one the most marketable young fighters in boxing. Mayweather-Cotto would sellout immediately if it were at MSG and could make a ton of money for both guys. Although Cotto's people may be hestitant to throw him to the wolves that early at 147.

Predictions on Barrera-Juarez? My initial reaction is that since the first fight, Barrera has only gotten older, while Juarez should be more comfortable on the big stage and will be more aggressive from the opening bell. But now I'm starting to wonder if I have too much confidence in Juarez.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

HBO will air Joe Calzaghe's defense on October 14. Fight will be tape-delayed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=2583524
I assumed that Cotto wouldn't fight anyone dangerous in his first fight at 147. I'll be impressed if he takes a risk and fights Harris, who was considered a top contender at 140 until he had that awful fightplan vs. Maussa on the Mayweather/Gatti undercard. That would be as exciting a doubleheader as you can find on a non-PPV telecast.

Let's assume Margarito and Cotto win, and Mayweather beats Baldomir and becomes the recognized champ. I'd assume that Margarito will fight his mandatory, Williams, since the only reason not to do that would be if he could get a big money fight against Mayweather, something that Floyd has given no indication that he's willing to do.
OTOH, Mayweather would have every reason to be interested in fighting Cotto, who has inherited much of Tito's Puerto Rico/NYC fanbase and is subsequently one the most marketable young fighters in boxing. Mayweather-Cotto would sellout immediately if it were at MSG and could make a ton of money for both guys. Although Cotto's people may be hestitant to throw him to the wolves that early at 147.

Putting Cotto in against Mayweather at this stage would be a major cash-out by Top Rank, Cotto's promoter. I like Cotto a lot, but he'd get dismantled by Mayweather. If Mayweather stopped Gatti in six, he stops Cotto in eight, max. Baldomir may give Mayweather a tougher test than the Pretty Boy is expecting, but I really can't see Mayweather losing to anyone until he moves up to 154, once there's no one left to fight -- or that PBF is willing to fight -- at 147. Even then, since Mayweather is extremely careful about choosing his opponents and seems to be taking the Roy Jones route to the Hall of Fame, it's hard to imagine him losing.

Predictions on Barrera-Juarez? My initial reaction is that since the first fight, Barrera has only gotten older, while Juarez should be more comfortable on the big stage and will be more aggressive from the opening bell. But now I'm starting to wonder if I have too much confidence in Juarez.

[post="459200"][/post]​

I'm seeing another very close, very exciting fight. It's impossible to count Barrera out. He's a living legend among Mexican fight fans for a reason. But I expect Juarez to try to pessure him more in the early rounds this time and as the fight goes along, MAB's age will show. I'll take Juarez in a close but unanimous decision. (Though there's always the Las vegas judging factor to be considered. Vegas is De La Hoya's second hometown and MAB is De La Hoya's fighter and business partner. In a close fight, the nod could go Barrera's way for that reason alone.)

EDITS: A couple of late-beaking boxing news items: It now looks as if the Winky Wright-Jermaine Taylor on-again-off-again rematch on Dec. 2 is off. Again. According to MaxBoxing's Steve Kim, Taylor will face Kassim Ouma after all, in Little Rock, in what is supposed to be an "easy" fight for Taylor. I wouldn't call Ouma an easy fight for anyone, with his 1,000-plus punch output. But I don't think Ouma's ever fought at middleweight and Taylor's abig middleweight who couild easily move up to 168 or even 175 -- and probably will in the next year or so. the Ouma fight will be on HBO Dec. 9.

Ike Quartey, who just lost a controversial decision to comebacking Vernon Forrest a month ago, is now being discussed as an opponent for Wright for that Dec. 2 date.

 

[BGrif21125]

I like Cotto a lot, but he'd get dismantled by Mayweather. If Mayweather stopped Gatti in six, he stops Cotto in eight, max.

[post="460802"][/post]​

I really can't see Mayweather losing to anyone until he moves up to 154, once there's no one left to fight -- or that PBF is willing to fight -- at 147.

Agree completely on both of these points. If Mayweather stayed at 147 (which I assume won't happen), I think he would have at least another 2-3 years of being untouchable, maybe more. Baldomir is the toughest opponent out there at 147, and there's a very good chance that he doesn't win more than 2 rounds, maybe 3.

Even then, since Mayweather is extremely careful about choosing his opponents and seems to be taking the Roy Jones route to the Hall of Fame, it's hard to imagine him losing.

The amount of time Mayweather took to finalize this fight was maddening, but as I look back at his career so far, I really can't find anyone that he's clearly avoided. At 130, he fought Corrales, who was Top 10 PFP at that time. It's easy to forget this now, but many experts predicted that Corrales would knock him out. Floyd embarrassed him, worse than Gatti IMO. IIRC, Corrales set a Compubox record that night for fewest landed punches round-by-round. I think in his "best" round he landed 9 times.
Barrera/Morales/Hamed were all at 126 at that time, they weren't an option. He went up to 135 and immediately challenged a beltholder in Castillo. After a questionable victory, he granted Castillo a rematch and clearly beat him the second time.
When he moved up to 140, there were young prospects (Cotto, Harris), but I can't think of any overly-deserving veterans who he avoided. Gatti may have been thoroughly overmatched, but he was a beltholder at 140.
Now at 147, he's beaten Judah, who despite being a headcase, is probably the closest to Floyd in terms of talent. He's fighting Baldomir now, who is the undisputed champ. People say he's avoiding Margarito, but what has Margarito done to deserve a shot over Judah or Baldomir? By all accounts Floyd was willing to fight Mosley, and it was Mosley who was backing off. Now Mosley is past his prime, but he is a former #1 PFP guy, that counts for something.
I realize Mayweather has never had a really tough fight (other than Castillo I), but is that because he's choosing soft opponents, or simply because he's head and shoulders above everyone else out there? I just can't find any dangerous guys who he has avoided in the 4 different divisions in which he has competed.
So far, he's been dominant in a Pernell Whitaker type of way at 130-147, and if Floyd chooses not to adopt the cocaine-based training regimen that Whitaker practiced, he's going to blow (no pun intended) past him in terms of accomplishment.

I'm seeing another very close, very exciting fight. It's impossible to count Barrera out. He's a living legend among Mexican fight fans for a reason. But I expect Juarez to try to pessure him more in the early rounds this time and as the fight goes along, MAB's age will show. I'll take Juarez in a close but unanimous decision. (Though there's always the Las vegas judging factor to be considered. Vegas is De La Hoya's second hometown and MAB is De La Hoya's fighter and business partner. In a close fight, the nod could go Barrera's way for that reason alone.)

The judging factor worries me too. I think Barrera lost his desire to brawl after Morales I, who wouldn't after a night like that? He became a master boxer, but now age is taking over, and he just doesn't have the ability to hold off aggressive young punchers anymore, Pacquiao being the clear example of this. If Juarez moves forward and lets his hands go for 12 rounds, I don't think Barrera can keep up with him. But if Juarez makes the same mistake again and starts out slowly, I think Barrera can steal some rounds and make it close. Like you alluded to, Barrera is going to have a big hidden advantage in a close fight. He's one of the greatest featherweights/jr. lightweights ever, and arguably the 2nd biggest Mexican star ever. He's going to get the benefit of the doubt from the judges in a close fight.
If Barrera does lose, I hope he realizes that it's time to call it a career. He's been in tons of wars and he's 32 years old going on 50. He's already inner-circle HOF, he's got nothing left to prove.

 

[5050HindSight]

I realize Mayweather has never had a really tough fight (other than Castillo I), but is that because he's choosing soft opponents, or simply because he's head and shoulders above everyone else out there? I just can't find any dangerous guys who he has avoided in the 4 different divisions in which he has competed.

[post="460812"][/post]​

Isn't this the same story with Roy Jones? Did he avoid any very good fighters, or were there just no good fighters in the weight classes he competed in? Looking back at his career, you see a lot of good names, and a lot of nobodies, but I seem to recall when watching him on HBO that there was just no one good in his weight class, at least that's what Jim Lampley told me. I was a very casual boxing fan then, so I don't really know if that is true or not.

Taking a look at Roy's career...it would have been nice to see 22-0-0 Roy Jones fight 22-1-0 Bernard Hopkins (whose one loss had come in his first fight) for the vacant IBF Middleweight belt back in 1993.

He beat Toney in 1994, when Toney was a 44-0-2 super middleweight champ.

He beat Grif's hero Vinny Paz in 1995, when The Pazmanian Devil was pretty much at his peak.

He beat Antonio Tarver in their first match in 2003.

Not to mention a bunch of other lesser, but still decent victories like Virgil Hill, Otis Grant, Clinton Woods, Johnny Ruiz (despite giving up about 35 pounds), the 1st round KO of Griffen after the DQ, etc.

Anyway, I'd be interested to know if my memory of Roy being an elite boxer without a dencent opponent to challenge his skill is not entirely correct. If Roy really did duck some good fighters along the way to the Hall of Fame, that might slightly change my opinion of him. But he's definitely one of my 5 favorite fighters of all time.

 

[BGrif21125]

I didn't become a full-fledged boxing fan until around '99 or '00, for most of the 90's I only closely followed the big heavyweight megafights with Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, etc. So I'll be interested to read GCPT's response, because he will probably be able to give a much more definitive and insightful answer to the Roy Jones question than I can.

I know the main guy that Jones was accused of ducking was Dariusz Michalczewski, the WBO champ at 175 who went 48-0 until losing his last two fights in '03 and calling it quits. But he only fought in Germany, and IIRC, Jones' stance was "Why should I have to go to Germany when I'm the #1 guy? He should be coming here to face me, I shouldn't have to chase him." Which seems like a logical argument. I never saw this guy fight, so I can't say whether he was truly a threat or if he was just padding his record in Europe.

Jones clearly beat Hopkins in '93, the only defeat Hopkins would have in a 15 year span! Unfortunately for Roy, no one knew at that time that Hopkins would become one of the greatest fighters ever. I know Hopkins always clamored for a rematch in the late 90's, early 00's, but they were 15 pounds apart by that time, so I'm not sure it was ever realistic.
And he blew out Toney in a lopsided decision, which is really the only time that Toney has been thoroughly beaten, in almost 80 career fights.
And he did take on Tarver, who was the most deserving contender of recent times. Tarver whined that he got robbed in the first fight, but that was BS, Jones beat him despite being far from 100% after losing the weight to come back down from heavyweight.
Now Jones was a smart matchmaker, in that he won a portion of the heavyweight belt by picking a guy in Ruiz who was a beltholder in name only. Jones talked about challenging Lennox but that was just hot air, even a guy as talented as Roy would have been in big trouble against a guy as huge as Lennox. Roy would've been seriously injured in that fight.

I know when I started following Jones closely around '00, another big criticism of him was that he didn't pounce on guys and knock them out as fast as he could, he would let overmatched opponents hang around for awhile and he would just pick them apart from the outside. He was criticized for not being a risk-taker in the ring. I know this is why when I first started following the non-heavyweight classes, I became a huge fan of Trinidad (who remains my favorite fighter ever to this day) over Jones, because when Tito got someone hurt, he would destroy them.
As I get older though, I have less of a problem with Jones style than I did then. Why risk getting into a brawl when you can pick a guy apart from a safe distance?

P.S. And poor Vinny, he took the asskicking of a lifetime that night. And I'd be willing to bet my life savings that he had spent the previous 6 months telling anyone who wanted to listen that he would knock Jones out.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I didn't become a full-fledged boxing fan until around '99 or '00, for most of the 90's I only closely followed the big heavyweight megafights with Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, etc. So I'll be interested to read GCPT's response, because he will probably be able to give a much more definitive and insightful answer to the Roy Jones question than I can.

I know the main guy that Jones was accused of ducking was Dariusz Michalczewski, the WBO champ at 175 who went 48-0 until losing his last two fights in '03 and calling it quits. But he only fought in Germany, and IIRC, Jones' stance was "Why should I have to go to Germany when I'm the #1 guy? He should be coming here to face me, I shouldn't have to chase him." Which seems like a logical argument. I never saw this guy fight, so I can't say whether he was truly a threat or if he was just padding his record in Europe.

Jones clearly beat Hopkins in '93, the only defeat Hopkins would have in a 15 year span! Unfortunately for Roy, no one knew at that time that Hopkins would become one of the greatest fighters ever. I know Hopkins always clamored for a rematch in the late 90's, early 00's, but they were 15 pounds apart by that time, so I'm not sure it was ever realistic.
And he blew out Toney in a lopsided decision, which is really the only time that Toney has been thoroughly beaten, in almost 80 career fights.
And he did take on Tarver, who was the most deserving contender of recent times. Tarver whined that he got robbed in the first fight, but that was BS, Jones beat him despite being far from 100% after losing the weight to come back down from heavyweight.
Now Jones was a smart matchmaker, in that he won a portion of the heavyweight belt by picking a guy in Ruiz who was a beltholder in name only. Jones talked about challenging Lennox but that was just hot air, even a guy as talented as Roy would have been in big trouble against a guy as huge as Lennox. Roy would've been seriously injured in that fight.

I know when I started following Jones closely around '00, another big criticism of him was that he didn't pounce on guys and knock them out as fast as he could, he would let overmatched opponents hang around for awhile and he would just pick them apart from the outside. He was criticized for not being a risk-taker in the ring. I know this is why when I first started following the non-heavyweight classes, I became a huge fan of Trinidad (who remains my favorite fighter ever to this day) over Jones, because when Tito got someone hurt, he would destroy them.
As I get older though, I have less of a problem with Jones style than I did then. Why risk getting into a brawl when you can pick a guy apart from a safe distance?

P.S. And poor Vinny, he took the asskicking of a lifetime that night. And I'd be willing to bet my life savings that he had spent the previous 6 months telling anyone who wanted to listen that he would knock Jones out.

[post="460984"][/post]​

Well, admittedly, I've got a few gaps in my recent boxing history due to a few long stretches when for various reasons I didn't get HBO (or Showtime) and didn't follow the game as closely as I had before and have since (which raises a whole different argument about why boxing has faded off the mainstream sports pages). But what I know about Jones is that, while he's partly a victim of the ever-cynical boxing media and fandom and maybe got a bit of bad rap, there were any number of top opponents he never faced: Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Dariusz Michalczewski among them. He never fought Michael Nunn at middleweight, either, who was second only to Jones as the top middleweight of that era.


Usually the excuse (with the first three guys, in particular) was that many of these top contenders were European and Roy refused to go over there to fight them. Fair enough, I guess, but he never really had a mega-fight after James Toney in 1994, until he challenged John Ruiz for (and won) one of the heavyweight belts. And even then, it was more the feat of just moving up to heavyweight that was interesting. Ruiz was definitely the weakest of a weak lot of heavyweight "champs."

I think what irritated people about RJJ was that a) he never seemed to challenge himself in his choice of opponents or his style of fighting and B) he fought a lot of bum and it was always on PPV. So to see the most talented and exciting boxer of his era, you had to shell out serious money to watch him cruise through easy matches.

Mayweather hasn't estalished himself as a major PPV draw yet, but since he moved up to 140 and now 147, he seems bent on taking the same route. Though I think he gets at least a partial bad rap, too. As usual with these things, the truth is somehwere in the middle.

 

[BGrif21125]

I think what irritated people about RJJ was that a) he never seemed to challenge himself in his choice of opponents or his style of fighting and B) he fought a lot of bum and it was always on PPV. So to see the most talented and exciting boxer of his era, you had to shell out serious money to watch him cruise through easy matches.

Mayweather hasn't estalished himself as a major PPV draw yet, but since he moved up to 140 and now 147, he seems bent on taking the same route. Though I think he gets at least a partial bad rap, too. As usual with these things, the truth is somehwere in the middle.

[post="462227"][/post]​

I agree about the PPV issue with Jones. I have no problem shelling out $50 for a great night of boxing, like I'll be doing this weekend for Barrea/Juarez and in November for Mayweather/Baldomir and Pacquiao/Morales.
But it does suck when you're forced to pay to see someone fight an opponent who's not the top contender. There were plenty of times when Jones was on PPV against someone who was at best the 4th or 5th best contender. (Barrera has done this a few times as well.) Now sometimes the reason he was facing him was because he had already beaten #1,2, and 3, but it still sucked that it cost $50.

Mayweather does appear to be following Jones' path in terms of becoming a PPV fighter. But everytime I've heard Floyd discuss his desire to be on PPV, his explanation has always been that he wants to be considered the best in the game, and the modern boxing culture has decided that PPV appearances are the sign that a guy has "arrived." Before the Gatti fight, Floyd was always relegated to HBO, while guys like Oscar, Jones, Barrera and Mosley were on PPV. Floyd took that to mean that boxing fans and promoters didn't think he was as talented as those fighters, when clearly he was. Great fighters=PPV, lesser fighters= cable. That's the perception unfortunately.

As for quality of opposition, I still stand by my argument that Floyd is taking on the best guys out there. It's not his fault that he's embarrassing all these guys. He's just too good.
Now if De La Hoya says he ready to go and challenges Floyd at 154, and Floyd turns him down, then there's a legitimate argument about Floyd's desire to take risks and challenge himself. But right now there's no indication that he won't be up to the challenge.

 

[BGrif21125]

Now let's see who Cotto is matched against. Vivian Harris is being discussed as an opponent. Margarito-Clottey and Cotto-Harris would be an incredible conclusion to Showtime's 20th season of "Championship Boxing."

[post="456802"][/post]​

According to Rafael's latest notebook, Cotto is going to face SoSH favorite Carlos Quintana.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been flooded with Barrera-Juarez discussion, it was such a riveting fight.

 

[5050HindSight]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been flooded with Barrera-Juarez discussion, it was such a riveting fight.

[post="466439"][/post]​

Yeah, I didn't see the fight, but now that I read the recap on ESPN, it seems like the type of fight that would drive away casual fans in droves. Sounds like all Barrera did was jab, jab, jab and get the hell away from Juarez. I imagine a lot of people were hoping for a battle like the first one, but Barrera is too smart to try to out punch Juarez.

At any rate, for those that did watch... was Barrera really just that much better at executing a solid game plan that could make him a winner in a boring fight, or did Juarez totally drop the ball and miss many opportunities to attack Barrera?

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Yeah, I didn't see the fight, but now that I read the recap on ESPN, it seems like the type of fight that would drive away casual fans in droves. Sounds like all Barrera did was jab, jab, jab and get the hell away from Juarez. I imagine a lot of people were hoping for a battle like the first one, but Barrera is too smart to try to out punch Juarez.

At any rate, for those that did watch... was Barrera really just that much better at executing a solid game plan that could make him a winner in a boring fight, or did Juarez totally drop the ball and miss many opportunities to attack Barrera?

[post="466465"][/post]​

The Barrera-Juarez fight will re-air on "free" HBO next Saturday, on the "Boxing After Dark" telecast, so everyone'll get to see it then. I don't blame Barrera for what he did. After all the wars he's been through, and given that he has the remarkable boxing skills to pull it off, he's entitled to use his abilities to win a fight without taking too many punches. That is "the sweet science" after all.

What bugged me was that he won the fight almost exclusively with his jab. He rarely if ever engaged at all. I look at other "master boxers" -- for example, see Joe Calzaghe's classic paint-job on Jeff Lacy earlier this year -- and they will engage, throw flurries, do a lot of damage then be gone before the opponent can fire back. That's not what Barrera did. He just jabbed, moved and held all night. He was very effective at it, but it was damn annoying to watch. He basically turned into Winky Wright overnight.

I can't say Juarez missed his oportunities, though his deliberate, methodical style didn't add anything to the fight's entertainment value either. He was in there trying, but he is the fighter he is. What this fight proved is that Juarez needs an opponent who will mix it up with him in order to make an exciting match.

It also bugged me that he repeatedly taunted Juarez with "Come on, hit me in the chin" gestures. But when Juarez came in, Barrera would be gone. I mean, if you're going to trash talk and act like a tough guy, you need to back it up, not run away when your opponent takes you up on your invitation. be theslick boxer all you want, but don't act all "street" about it.

Anyway, if you didn't get the PPV, you missed at least one classic fight -- The Israel Vasquez-Jhonny Gonzalez match -- and another exciting slugfest as well (Joan Guzman-Jorge Barrios). Even the opening four-rounder was action-packed. Definitely an excellent PPV card, despite the letdown of the main event.

 

[BGrif21125]

Anyway, if you didn't get the PPV, you missed at least one classic fight -- The Israel Vasquez-Jhonny Gonzalez match -- and another exciting slugfest as well (Joan Guzman-Jorge Barrios). Even the opening four-rounder was action-packed. Definitely an excellent PPV card, despite the letdown of the main event.

[post="466645"][/post]​

Yes, it should be mentioned that the three undercard fights were as entertaining as any undercard you'll ever see.
The 4 rounder between Paez and Campos was amazing, and the first round of Guzman/Barrios was like the lightweight equivalent of round 1 of Hagler/Hearns.
They should replay the undercard fights next week instead of the main event. Hopefully those fights show up on youtube for those who didn't order the PPV.

Barrera is a master boxer, and his style was good enough to frustrate Juarez, but I don't see those tactics working as well in a Pacquiao rematch, which is by all accounts the fight that Barrera wants next.

 

[5050HindSight]

If anyone is up, ESPNClassic has a Vinny Pazienza bout on now. The Pazmanian Devil vrs Arthur Allen from 1998.

 

[eddiew112]

He basically turned into Winky Wright overnight.

At least Winky has been known to throw some power shots every once and a while! I dont think Barrera should fight Manny, how about another war with El Terrible!

 

[eddiew112]

On a completely different note, have any of you guys been watching the Contender? I would say my pick to win is Stevie Forbes, he is just too talented and determined for the rest of the group.

 

[BGrif21125]

I dont think Barrera should fight Manny, how about another war with El Terrible!

[post="467296"][/post]​

Barrera will never agree to fight Morales again. To say that those guys hate each other's guts is putting it mildly, and Barrera will never give Morales a fourth fight and a chance to even up the score. As it stands now, Barrera can forever boast that he won 2 of 3 against his arch-enemy.
I don't think Morales is going to be around too much longer anyway. I have a feeling he's going to get KO'd in November and then head off to retirement.

If anyone is up, ESPNClassic has a Vinny Pazienza bout on now. The Pazmanian Devil vrs Arthur Allen from 1998.

On a somewhat related note, I was watching a highlight clip on youtube of Greg Haugen vs. Pernell Whitaker yesterday. Anyway, the announcers were saying that Haugen predicted a victory, since in his opinion there was no way that Whitaker could be as fast as Vinny Pazienza, who Haugen fought three times. I got a good laugh out of that one. Talk about being a poster child for boxing-related dementia... Haugen compared the speed of Vinny to that of a guy who would get plenty of votes (including my own) as the greatest fighter of the past 25 years.

 

[BGrif21125]

On a completely different note, have any of you guys been watching the Contender? I would say my pick to win is Stevie Forbes, he is just too talented and determined for the rest of the group.

[post="467297"][/post]​

I don't watch it, but I know there's a thread on SoSH for the show.

Contender thread

 

[BGrif21125]

Just a heads up, for those with Showtime On Demand, the first two Corrales-Casamayor fights are up. I assume they'll remain up until October 7, the date of the rubber match.

 

[5050HindSight]

this thread is crickets lately. anything new?

Dan Rafael's latest notebook has:

* The possibility of a Gatti-Salita bout early next year in the tri-state area.

* OLN (I guess it's called Versus now) has an interesting card tomorrow night. One fight featuring bantamweight prospect Raul Martinez (15-0, 11KOs), and another with two former champions kevin Kelly and carlos hernandez.

ALSO:

WBC rules in favor of Toney-Peter rematch

Looks like this is going to happen in early 2007. I think this is a good decision. Everyone comes out a winner, though Peter definitely has the most to lose.

 

[BGrif21125]

I've been sitting on a couple news items for a few days, I just hadn't posted them yet since I had already made the last 3 or 4 posts in the thread.

First, the Kronk Gym is in danger of closing. Link

But the potential knockout blow came last weekend, when police say thieves entered the building through a window and made off with copper pipes from the basement boiler room, cutting off the gym's water supply.
Steward has been told that it will cost $20,000 to $40,000 to fix the damage to the gym he has led for more than three decades. "I don't have that kind of money," he said.
So, he's down to two options: Figure out a way to get the money to keep the gym up and running again or open a new Kronk elsewhere.

Ok, $40,000 is a lot of cash, but am I the only one surprised that Steward would claim to "not have that kind of money." This guy has trained Hearns, Lewis, Hamed, now Jermain Talylor and Wladimir Klitschko. Those guys all made multi-million dollar purses while working under Steward. There's no way he doesn't have 40K laying around.

Second, I forget where I read it, but Bernard Hopkins said recently that he's contemplating a move up to heavyweight to challenge Maskaev. This has to be one of the craziest things I've ever heard. Ya, Roy Jones did it, but Roy wasn't 41 years old when he did it, Roy didn't spend 95% of his career at 160 like Bernard, Roy was a bigger puncher than Hopkins, and Roy was more elusive than Hopkins. Hopkins is a great defensive fighter, but he's not unhittable like Jones in his prime. Also, Maskaev isn't a stiff like John Ruiz was. Bernard, hang them up, you're one of the greatest fighters ever, you have nothing to prove.

Third, the Peter-Toney rematch. I'm on record as saying that Toney won the first fight, but even though he got a raw deal (IMO), there doesn't need to be an immediate rematch. I just really can't stand immediate rematches. Generally, if the first fight is really entertaining, the second one is more tactical and fails to live up to the standard set by the first one. If the first fight sucks, the second fight will as well. I just can't remember an immediate rematch that was ever any better than the first.
With Toney-Peter, the same problems are going to occur. Toney is going to be technically superior, landing more frequently, more accurately, and showing better defensive skills, while Peter will land the harder, more crowd-pleasing blows. And in the end, just like the first fight, it's going to come down to what the judges value more. And the same arguments will come up again.
They should just let Peter face Maskaev and then give Toney another shot down the road.

Fourth, an interesting night of boxing coming up a week from Saturday, with Valuev-Barrett on HBO and Corrales-Casamayor III on Showtime.
I think Barrett has a chance at an upset. I haven't gotten a chance to review Valuev yet, but by all accounts he's not that big of a puncher. Well if he's 7 foot 300 pounds, he can't be that fast or agile, so if he can't punch either, what exactly does he bring to the table, other than raging backhair?

I like Corrales to win the rubber match. He won the second fight, and Casamayor isn't getting any younger. I love Corrales fights, because he's got KO power in both hands, and can also get knocked out himself at any moment. He never has a dull fight.

Then there's Calzaghe on October 14th followed by a few weeks off to get ready for November/December's epic schedule. Should be a great autumn.

Finally, I recently found a 30 fight Pernell Whitaker DVD collection on ebay for about $20. I've been pouring through those the last few days. I never got a chance to see that guy in his prime. By the time I started to closely follow the sport, he was already a cocaine addict on the verge of retirement. After watching the DVDs, damn could that guy fight. Now I understand why Max Kellerman is so obsessed with him.

EDIT: Also, espn.com will have a chat with Bert Sugar thursday at noon.

 

[BGrif21125]

He's back.
Link

In need of money, the bankrupt Tyson, who squandered an estimated $300 million-plus in ring earnings, is scheduled to appear Thursday afternoon at a news conference at the Chevrolet Centre in Youngstown, Ohio, to announce "Mike Tyson's World Tour."
Tyson, 40, is scheduled to face longtime sparring partner Corey "T-Rex" Sanders on Oct. 20, promoter Sterling McPherson told ESPN.com.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Tyson-Holyfield III can't be too far off.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

Saturday, 8PM EDT, Sugar Ray, Thomas Hearns w/ Brian Kenny and Bert Sugar in "Boxing's 25 greatest knockouts" on ESPN classic. Promos included Douglas/Tyson and Walcott/Charles.

Looks like it'll be some quality TV harkening back to the glory days when big fights were held at Yankee Stadium, not some 10,000 seat arena in Vegas. :\

 

[BGrif21125]

First off, Bert Sugar needs a regular gig on either HBO or ESPN. He made a guest appearance on Friday Night Fights several weeks ago and it was great stuff. I was disappointed when they cut away from the studio to show the actual fights, I would've rather just listened to him talk all night. Unlike a lot of old writers, he has a great reverance for history, but also maintains an open mind towards the current state of the sport. He's not one of these old farts who complains about how boxing in 2006 sucks, when anyone who watches the sport knows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Off the top of my head, here's some KO's that I would expect to be on the list:
Douglas-Tyson
Louis-Schmeling
Ali-Foreman
Tyson-Spinks
Corrales-Castillo I
Leonard-Hearns
Foreman-Moorer
Foreman-Lyle
Tarver-Jones
Marciano-Walcott
Marciano-Louis
Hagler-Hearns
Gatti-Ruelas?
Chavez-Taylor?

 

[eddiew112]

Dont forget Robinson-Fullmer

 

[BGrif21125]

Are the main events both scheduled to start around the same time on Saturday?

If so, which one are you watching? I think it's gotta be Corrales-Casamayor by a landslide.

 

[BGrif21125]

How ironic.
Corrales fails to make weight

 

[5050HindSight]

How ironic.
Corrales fails to make weight

[post="488009"][/post]​

Interesting fight tonight. You gotta feel good for Casamayor, even if the judges might have been swayed a little by castillo's failure to make weight.

Did you guys catch the first fight...that was odd with the guy pretty much quitting...though he clained to have a broken jaw, who knows. the winner reminded my a lot of prince naseem hamed.

EDIT: what the hell was the ref thinking in the 11th of the valuev fight? Barrett is stumbling around the ring, and the trainer has to jump in to get him to stop the fight? what the heck is that?

 

[BGrif21125]

Interesting fight tonight. You gotta feel good for Casamayor, even if the judges might have been swayed a little by castillo's failure to make weight.

Did you guys catch the first fight...that was odd with the guy pretty much quitting...though he clained to have a broken jaw, who knows. the winner reminded my a lot of prince naseem hamed.

EDIT: what the hell was the ref thinking in the 11th of the valuev fight? Barrett is stumbling around the ring, and the trainer has to jump in to get him to stop the fight? what the heck is that?

[post="489727"][/post]​

First of all, I lost a TON of respect for Corrales over the past 24 hours. He's always been one of my favorite fighters, because he usually deilvers action-packed fights and seems to have a true love for the sport. He got screwed in the second Castillo fight when he fought against a guy who was well above weight, and I thought Corrales made the right move to cancel the 3rd Castillo fight when Castillo showed up overweight again. So what does Corrales do? He does the EXACT same thing that Castillo did. He was 5 pounds overweight, which means he never even came close. He could've told Casamayor a week ago that he was having major weight problems, and then arrangements could've been made ahead of time and Casamayor could've come in overweight as well if he so chose.
I watched the fight but I was on the phone for a while so I can't say whether I thought the decision was correct or not. I'll watch it again tomorrow.
Corrales will move up to 140 now and make a ton of money facing Hatton or Castillo for a 3rd time.
I didn't see the undercard fight on either channel, but I did see Valuev. I was impressed by his stamina, and he could definitely be competitive against Maskaev. I haven't seen Liakhovich (sp?) so I can't comment on him. I think Klitschko kicks Valuev's ass. Now obviously Kiltschko has flaws, but there is no doubt that he is the #1 guy right now.
And I agree, the ref for the Valuev fight was either mentally retarded or he lit up a crack rock 5 minutes before the fight. Barrett was absolutely exhausted and out on his feet, he was a punching bag at the end. Luckily for Barrett, he had a cornerman who cared about him.