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So the farm system has had a disastrous start

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by The Gray Eagle, May 15, 2018.

  1. The Gray Eagle

    The Gray Eagle Member SoSH Member

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    The farm system was not highly rated before this season started. Alex Speier in the Glob discusses how things have gone from bad to worse:

    "There is no sugar-coating what has transpired with the Red Sox minor league system. It’s been an awful start to the 2018 season.

    News that top prospect Jay Groome would require Tommy John surgerythat will wipe out his second full pro season represented the latest in a succession of ugly early-season developments. A look at the team’s top 10 prospects entering the year tells a story of woe:

    No. 1 — LHP Jay Groome (Single A Greenville): Out for the season with Tommy John surgery.

    No. 2 — 3B/1B Michael Chavis (Double A Portland):Suspended 80 games for testing positive for a banned PED.

    No. 3 — RHP Tanner Houck (High A Salem): 1-5 record, 6.00 ERA, 29 strikeouts, 22 walks, 1.73 WHIP, 6 homers in 30 innings.

    No. 4 — RHP Bryan Mata (High A Salem): 1-2 record, 3.92 ERA, 15 strikeouts, 20 walks, 1.74 WHIP in 20⅔ innings.

    No. 5 — OF Cole Brannen (Single A Greenville): .158/.244/.211 with a 28 percent strikeout rate.

    No. 6 — LHP Darwinzon Hernandez (High A Salem): 2-1 record, 4.84 ERA, 27 strikeouts, 23 walks, 1.70 WHIP in 22⅓ innings.

    No. 7 — 1B/LF Sam Travis (Triple A Pawtucket): .292/.370/.384 with 1 homer in 17 games before going on the DL with an intercostal strain.

    No. 8 — RHP Mike Shawaryn (Double A Portland): 2-3 record, 2.88 ERA, 29 strikeouts, 8 walks, 1.02 WHIP in 34⅓ innings.

    No. 9 — RHP Alex Scherff (Single A Greenville): 0-3 record, 7.25 ERA, 15 strikeouts, 14 walks, 1.61 WHIP in 22⅓ innings.

    No. 10 — 2B Marco Hernandez (Triple A Pawtucket): Hasn’t played while recovering from shoulder surgery.

    Evaluators who have gotten looks at different Red Sox affiliates have come away with decidedly underwhelmed impressions. The Sox entered the year hoping that some players in a very young prospect pool would take steps forward; to date, that hasn’t really happened with any of the team’s most promising talent. If anything, those players appear further from an impact than they did entering the year."

    The article notes that pitchers Shawaryn, Lakins and Beeks have been silver linings so far. But the overall picture was grim before this season and it's gotten worse.

    IMO, this team needs to commit every possible resource to improving the farm system. That starts with having a good draft this year and good international signings, but also includes having the discipline to not go over the $237 million payroll limit, as the penalties from that would be damaging: a 10-spot penalty for their top pick in the 2019 draft, a reduction in draft signing money, and a loss of $500,000 in international bonus pool money.

    Also, fans need to understand that we don't have the pieces to make any big trades anytime soon. At this point, we have fewer chips than an empty can of Pringles. Any issues this team has will need to be filled internally, other than maybe a Ziegler/Nunez-level pickup at the deadline.
     
  2. Jerry’s Curl

    Jerry’s Curl lurker

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    At least the emergence of Beeks helps, a little.
     
  3. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

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    Beeks helps a lot, because he’s in AAA and DDski isn’t going to be able to trade for MLB help at the July deadline.

    Any acquisition is going to be limited to cash deals at the waiver deadline in August using the remaining $3M in leftover cap room. Which, on a prorated basis, will get one good bullpen piece.
     
  4. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    The minor leagues are truly a wasteland. Even the second tier prospects like Josh Ockimey and CJ Chatham as well as third tier guys like Roniel Rhodes and Danny Mars (who I had hoped would turn into a Daniel Nava type) have stalled or gone backwards.

    The brightest spot outside of Beeks (how was he not a top 10 in that list?) is barely-a-prospect Cole Sturgeon, who absolutely demolished AA and this forced his way to Pawtucket, where no one other than the hopelessly trapped in limbo Rusney Castillo looks like they even belong at that level.

    But I’m not sure I agree with Eagle about what that means. I think it means the Sox need to go even more all-in on 2018 and 2019. Focus on winning at all costs now and then start a full Cubs/Astros style rebuild in winter 2019-2020. That winter they’re free of Ramirez and Sandoval which will make it easy to get under the de facto cap. They’ll get a comp pick by avoiding the winners curse on Sale. Maybe they’ll be able to trade Price with 2/3rds of his salary for a prospect or 2. Look to trade anyone within a year or 2 of free agency at that point, like Vazquez or Rodriguez, rather than sign them if they have some value they can cash in for prospects. Etc.
     
    #4 Plympton91, May 15, 2018
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  5. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    8,122
    Victor Acosta is having a pretty good year too and could be considered a prospect. But yeah, when you are getting excited about Victor Acosta, the farm system sucks.
     
  6. johnnywayback

    johnnywayback Member SoSH Member

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    What do you do with Mookie Betts, then? He'll be a 28-year-old free agent after 2020. If you commit to a 2-3 year teardown project, you're wasting the most (and perhaps only) valuable years of what will be a hugely expensive long-term contract. If he even wants to re-sign, of course.

    The Cubs/Astros rebuild plan -- and the overall boom-or-bust (or boom-then-bust) strategy Dombrowski was hired to pursue -- makes a lot more sense when you don't have one of the five best players on the planet on your roster.
     
  7. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I've said this before but MLB's rules changes has had the effect of (i) eliminating teams' ability to leverage any revenue disparity and (ii) basically reducing talent acquisition to a crapshoot.

    Teams can either splurge on one uber-prospect or try to get several above-average prospects but it's too easy these days to have an entire draft wiped out.

    After all, is drafting well really a repeatable skill?
     
  8. teddywingman

    teddywingman Looks like Zach Galifianakis SoSH Member

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    That last part is an interesting question.
     
  9. Scoops Bolling

    Scoops Bolling Member SoSH Member

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    Do we know how much of the scouting staff has been lost in the changover to the DD era? Because Dombrowski was a decidely miserable GM when it came to the draft for the Tigers. Off the top of my head, the only non-Top 100 pick guys Dombrowski hit on while with the Tigers was basically Matt Joyce, Alex Avila, and Chad Green. And, it's not like his record in the higher rounds was much better. There are multiple drafts in DD's Detrot tenure where the draft brought in effectively zero long term value to the Tigers. It scared me when they hired him, and I can't claim there's been much sign he's going to be better on that front here.
     
  10. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

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    3,360
    Mike Rikard has been retained from 2015 by DD as director of scouting. Frank Wren did a great job with the Braves. Hard to know how much direct influence/involvement he has on the farm system, though if he's in charge of hiring farm guys, that can't be a bad thing given his resume.

    Dombrowski has been really unlucky from the 2016 draft and international signings -
    Groome and Chatham just haven't been healthy. Daniel Flores passed away. On the plus side, Mata could be a great signing. Shawaryn also has a decent chance of making the majors. It's doubtful there will be a stud, but it's unfair to judge this early.

    Cherington had a mixed bag as GM. The best player from 2012 was Brian Johnson, 2013 was the one two punch of Trey Ball and Teddy Stank, 2014 could be ok if one or more of Beeks, Chavis, Ockimey, and Travis contributes. 2015 was Beni but they got to pick #7 where it is easier to hit.

    It's as stale a farm system as I can remember though. Certainly as bad if not worse since at least the Duquette era.
     
    #10 grimshaw, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  11. Cuzittt

    Cuzittt Bouncing with Anger Dope

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    I'll be the positive man in this discussion.

    1) One should not be too concerned with win-loss records in the minors. Yes, it is better when teams win from a mental mindset, but it isn't truly relevant to the cause of developing individuals.
    2) While the individuals on whatever top 10 list this was have not necessarily set the world on fire... we are a month into the system and some others HAVE done well. I'll talk about some of those in a minute.
    3) From a Boston Red Sox perspective... they shouldn't need much from the minors this year anyway. However...

    a) they have a versatile utility man (Tzu-Wei Lin)
    b) they have at least one capable starting pitcher (Jalen Beeks. Depending on future moves on the major league roster one might add Hector Velazquez as well. And if he gets stretched out like last season, Marcus Walden could be added as well. And I probably should add Justin Haley here as well)
    c) They have seemingly unlimited number of bullpen options (Walden, Poyner, Scott, Jerez, Buttrey, Martin, Workman, and Brasier). No, they very well may not be sexy options... but they are useful.

    The Sox have also have a decent number of break in case of emergency options at positions that aren't of practical need. Don't like Sam Travis? How about Mike Olt (.244/.404/.465 with 23 walks and 11 extra-base hits). Or, maybe you bring up the surprising Jordan Betts (.319/.368/.565) who is maybe more surprising than Plympton's Cole Sturgeon. And at catcher, they have Mike Ohlman (.260/.367/.500) who is taller than the average SoSHer (6'5")

    The only place where the PawSox don't really have anyone that can immediately jump up and stop massive bleeding is the OF. Rusney can't come up and is only a single hitter anyway, and Tavarez, Flores, and Barfield have all been bad to horrific. Luckily, the Sox have the OF covered through their DH and their utility fielders (Holt and Lin).

    As for the non-PawSox teams...

    Portland: Position Players: Both Witte and De La Guerra have mashed since coming down from AAA. Neither are great prospects, but if the AAA experience has made them better hitters... it'll be interesting to watch. Tony Renda is absolutely crushing the ball and is probably too good for AA. But, he has never really his in AAA (despite getting a small MLB audition in Cincinnatti). Esteban Quiroz has been hurt for the last couple of weeks but was super intriguing beforehand. And... Josh Ockimey is interesting in the same way Bobby Dalbec is interesting. Both are highly boom/bust... but both take walks. A .241/.359/.414 line isn't that bad if he can keep it up as he climbs the system. It might not be what any of us want (it isn't that good either)...

    Pitching: So, I just flipped the stats to look at the pitchers in Portland. And the top five all have WHIPs below 1.20.

    Matt Kent: 2-1, 2.16 ERA, 8 games (25 IPs), 1.12 WHIP, 12 BB/28K, 2 HR.(2015 Draft)
    Adam Lau: 10 games in relief, 4.32 ERA, 1.14 WHIP. No ERs in seven appearances, multiple earned in the other 3. (2015 Draft)
    Trevor Kelley: 11 games in relief, 3.48 ERA, 1.16 WHIP. No runs allowed in 9 of 11 chances. (2015 Draft)
    Mike Shawaryn: 7 starts. 4.12 ERA, 1.17 WHIP. 12 BB/36K, 3 HRs (2016 Draft)
    Dedgar Jimenez: 7 starts (1 in AAA). 4.95 ERA, 1.16 WHIP. 12 BB/34 K, 4 HR (2013 IFA)

    Now, let's be honest. With the exception of Kent, the ERAs jump out as poor. However, the component stats are all showing competence that could translate into an MLB career. And, Dedgar is only 22 despite being in the system seemingly forever.

    I could go on with Salem (Santiago Espinal, Roldani Baldwin, an uninjured Kyri Washington) and Greenville (Victor Acosta, Michael Osinski, Kutter Crawford, Enmanuel De Jesus, Denyi Reyes)... but the point is this.

    The Red Sox farm system currently lacks a transcendent fast moving player. It does not currently have a Mookie Betts, an Andrew Benintendi, a Xander Bogaerts, a Dustin Pedroia, or a Rafael Devers. As fans, we like those types of high flyers that move through the system quickly.

    The Red Sox minors have a bunch of potential Brock Holts. That's not so sexy. It's certainly can be frustrating to watch especially in not knowing who to watch. But, Brock Holt went to an All-Star Game... so there is potential.

    Don't get me wrong. This is not a great farm system at this moment. It is likely on the wrong side of mediocre. But, it doesn't take too much going right and the younger prospects improving dramatically to improve the situation. And, one good draft and one good IFA season can change the prognosis even quicker.
     
  12. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Thanks for that pickmeup, Cuzz. My glass is much closer to being half full than it was before
     
  13. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    You could probably make a compelling argument that being a big market team is now a hindrance to acquiring talent.
     
  14. shaggydog2000

    shaggydog2000 Member SoSH Member

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    Part of how the Sox did well in the draft before was by signing players that dropped due to high bonus demands, and acquiring more picks by letting free agents go. The league clamped down on that, and the Sox did well spending in international free agency. The league clamped down on that. Now they don't have a way to use the financial advantage they have on amateur talent. That means their farm system is going to be more based on luck and draft slot. So unless you want them to really suck in order to acquire high draft picks, they are going to go through periods where the farm system sucks. This is life.
     
  15. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

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    I would think one of the remaining ways is to "buy" prospects by taking on deadweight salary, which the Padres tried to do with that Bryan Mitchell/Chase Headley trade (except Bryan Mitchell is terrible). But we obviously can't do that when we're sniffing the tax.
     
  16. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    I think one of the few remaining ways to utilize a financial advantage as a big market team is to pour extra money into scouting, on every level (other teams' assets, draft, international players, and even your own players). I have never seen an article going into this, but I have been pretty certain for a few years that this is what NY has done in recent years to help build their pile of young talent.
     
  17. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    And now the Redsox get LESS spending money in the international draft because of their big market label.
     
  18. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    This has been really interesting stuff.

    I agree with Cuz that the stock of middle relievers and backup infielders in the minors is halfway decent. If the Red Sox are willing to do it, they could try to use that depth to spend an absolute minimum on pitchers 10-12 and the 23-25th men on the bench in coming years. That would hopefully free up $12 million or so for topping off other positions.

    The idea of pouring money into scouting is also a no brainer. Hopefully they are doing that. But in the grand scheme of things, that’s small potatoes. Scouts are another.class of MLB employees who get slave wages. So boosting there is probably a rounding error in the team’s budget.

    The other aspect I have been tossing around is the depth of talent that is not on the 40 man roster. MLB veterans in AAA have a minimum salary of just $89,000 I believe. Big market teams like the Red Sox could maybe stockpile the best group of 41 to 45th men by paying a few of the best NRI candidates the equivalent of the major league minimum in AAA as an insurance policy against a rash of injuries.

    I was also hinking about the idea that the draft and international free agency are now crapshoots. I wonder if the Giants business model of just punting those and using the savings to offset luxury tax payments is a viable option. Trade all the international money for the type of low ceiling high floor minor leaguers such as Brandon Workman to keep the costs of your bench and middle relief and 5th started at minimum levels. Then use that money to offset the luxury tax hits of paYing for top level talent in free agency.
     
  19. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Is there evidence that scouting or any player development measure works?

    I thought your team is where it is because they signed a slew of players right before the international signing cap plus they did really well when they sold off a bunch of players at the 2016 trade deadline (unlike Ben Cherington, who kind of blew it).

    It will be interesting to see if any team keeps regularly producing impact talent given the cap limitations.
     
  20. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    Presumably you mean their 2014 over-the-top spending spree, but actually those guys have almost all been relative busts so far, although it is still a year or two early to say for sure. Florial and Freicer Perez are the biggest two prospects by far from that class, and both were inexpensive afterthoughts, plus both are currently hurt after performing poorly to start the season (and both were only in high A).

    And the 2016 deals were helpful but had nothing to do with the 2017 postseason run, which was led by guys already in the system like Judge and Sanchez and Severino. Torres is obviously helping them a ton now, Frazier helped some in the middle of last season but didn't make the postseason roster, and Sheffield and Tate have yet to make the big league team.

    It would be a really long post, but I think scouting on every level has a lot to do with NY's recent success and current positioning. The most obvious example is Didi Gregorius (who they got for Shane Greene thanks to Dombrowski when he was in DET) but you could point to other examples too (Aaron Hicks for John Ryan Murphy, Ronald Torreyes for Rob Segedin, Chad Green and Luis Cessa for Justin Wilson).

    Also Cashman seems to have a ridiculously high recent success rate for lower level pitchers acquired in trades (Swanson/Green for Beltran, Abreu/Guzman for McCann, Mike King for Smith/Cooper, Sears/Then for Rumbelow), every one of those acquisitions is either pitching great right now or very highly regarded, and that has to be a result of NY scouting other team's minor league assets. None of those pitchers are close to the bigs yet but they are a big component of why NY right now is loaded with pitching prospects throughout their system.
     
  21. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    It very easily could also be the result of other teams scouting very poorly, and over-valuing the players they wanted in return.
     
  22. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    So it's more likely that four different organizations scouted one team's opposing talent poorly than that one organization scouted four different teams' talent well? This fails Ockham's razor, badly.
     
  23. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    To be clear, I'm not saying those trades were all lopsided, McCann was a crucial cog in the Astros winning the title last year and Caleb Smith is holding his own in the Marlins rotation currently. What I'm saying is that all of those deals were of guys that NY decided they didn't want/need anymore, and they got promising arms in return every single time, and all of those arms have blossomed in NY's system. That's one thing when it comes to deadline deals like McCann and Beltran, but it's even more impressive when it comes to clearing space on the 40 man before the rule 5 draft (the latter two trades listed above).

    Here's another angle, I asked Jim Callis a mailbag question in December:

    =================================

    Q: if you were making a combined top 50 list of Yankees and Red Sox prospects now, how many Yankees would be on there? I'm guessing at least 35-40, but would love to hear your take.

    A: Interesting. The Red Sox had the best farm system in baseball as recently as mid-2015 but have slipped into the bottom third after a slew of graduations and trades. The Yankees also have promoted several of their best prospects to New York and dealt others during the last two years, yet still have one of the game's deepest systems.

    Bearing in mind that our current Boston and New York Top 30s on Prospect Watch were mostly assembled in July and will undergo some major revisions when we update them in February, a combined Top 50 would include about 35 Yankees and 15 Red Sox. The contrast would be even more stark at the top, with left-hander Jay Groome and third baseman Michael Chavis the only Boston farmhands who would crack a combined Top 10.

    ==================================

    You can attribute I think 7 of NY's 35 there to the 2016 trades and 2 to the 2014 spending spree (again, being generous with attribution as neither was really considered part of that group at the time), but that still leaves a 26/15 ratio of NY to BOS prospects, and that's not counting all of the guys that NY has moved in the last year (at least 10, I believe) and it's not accounting for prospect ups/downs since December, which I think favors NY also. Almost none of this involves any kind of financial advantage, some of it is coaching but a lot of it is scouting.
     
  24. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    Where did i say it was "more likely"? I said "could" be. I agree saying very easily was not an accurate term and i shouldn't have said it. But my point stands. He claimed that it "has to be" the Yankees. I was merely pointing out that it "could" be other reasons. Likely? No. But possible.
     
  25. Hawk68

    Hawk68 lurker

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  26. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    Teams number of scouts:

    1. New York - 153
    2. Boston - 114
    3. Cleveland(!) - 105

    No other team has more than 93. So this claim that it has little or nothing to do with a financial advantage is hogwash. When you can employ up to two or three times more scouts than some teams, it's because you have the financial resources to do so. In 2017, the Yankees raked in $619 million in revenues.

    (https://www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/)

    The Dodgers were second with $522 million. (They employ 92 scouts) Almost $100 million more than the second place team, and you say almost none of it involves a financial advantage? Come on, man. Could some teams add more? Yes. But they can't even begin to approach 153.

    I am in no way saying the Yankees are not a well run, smart franchise. But let's acknowledge a part of that is the tremendous financial advantage they have. It is not as large a gap as it once was, I know. But the advantage is still clearly there.
     
  27. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    40 scouts at $50,000 a year (a total guess obviously) is $2 million a year, a rounding error for most teams, even the ones with a low budget.

    But my original point was this, so not sure why you're trying to argue with me.

     
  28. crow216

    crow216 Dragon Wangler SoSH Member

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    Low-Salary-Range Factors
    The salary range for MLB scouting directors can vary significantly. Among the primary influencing factors are track record, team size and location. An average salary for an MLB scouting director with a small staff and a few years of experience is $35,950, at the time of publication, according to Mymajors.com. Some scouting directors only work a few months of the year.


    High-Salary-Range Factors
    The pay at the higher end of the salary range for MLB scouting directors can be much higher. The increasing factors consist of team budget, rank and seniority. For example, a MLB scouting director with successful track record of finding star players who works for a team with a large budget can earn more than $100,000, according to “Chronicle Guidance Publications.”

    Source: https://bizfluent.com/info-8750515-average-salary-mlb-scouting-director.html

    Trying to find more significant numbers on the analytics departments which, considering NY salaries, I'm betting is a substantial cost.
     
  29. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    You said that the scouting success was the result of the financial advantage of being a large market team, then claimed recent success was due to scouting, not some financial advantage.

    How can it be that the recent scouting success is due to the financial advantage, and then NOT be due to the financial advantage, but scouting????
     
  30. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    You are making the same exact point I made to begin with. Take a deep breath.
     
  31. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    I mean, I think there is zero need to get into this but revenues are not expenditures and expenditures are what we are talking about. Utilizing a financial advantage like you're talking about means outspending the competition by tens of millions of dollars, mostly in payroll, like NY did every year before the Dodgers came along. But the year where NY's payroll is $70M less than Boston's is not the year to whine about NY spending a few million dollars extra in scouting expenditures, which to me seems like a wise investment for all 30 franchises.
     
  32. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    If your scouting is due to a financial advantage, then how can something due to scouting not be because of financial advantage?

    And I am breathing fine. Thanks for your concern.
     
  33. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    Either you're intentionally ignoring 95 percent of what I'm saying or you're just obtuse. Either way, I'm done, someone else can take a shot if they care.
     
  34. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    I'm not whining. Just calling you on your contradiction. You said it yourself.
    "I think one of the few remaining ways to utilize a financial advantage as a big market team is to pour extra money into scouting"
    Now you're saying it's not really a financial advantage, only a few million dollars. So which is it? I know Yankee fans want their cake and eat it too, but stop acknowledging you have an advantage, then accuse others of "whining" when they call you on it and then you claim there isn't one. Pick a side and stay with it.
     
  35. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    Pot. Mr Kettle. Mr. Kettle. Pot.
     
  36. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    There is no 'side', dipshit, it's a complicated situation that I've done my best to explain here as best I understand. You have ignored most of my nuanced points in some kind of wildly misguided 'gotcha' effort and it's really close to earning you some time off from here.
     
  37. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    He has a point. You are on both sides of the fence.

    I think another advantage big market teams has is the ability to sign FAs with the intentions of trading them at the deadline.
     
  38. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    All financial transactions aren't equal, literally any team could make the decision to spend a few million dollars more on scouting and it would almost certainly be a wise investment, as NY has found. My original point was that with the CBA removing almost every way possible for the big market teams to utilize their additional revenues, here is a way that teams can spend a bit more that's not closely regulated. I appreciate the research into the number of scouts, I'd like to see a national writer do a more in-depth piece on this.
     
  39. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    Does this happen? I'm sure it does, but I can't think of any examples offhand, and I remember that even a player as good as JD Martinez didn't fetch much in return when the Tigers sent him to the D'Backs last summer. The main current example I can think of is Moustakas (who will likely be moved this summer although Olney pointed out this weekend that there are a lot of 3Bs available and probably not much market for them), and KC certainly isn't a big market team.
     
  40. crow216

    crow216 Dragon Wangler SoSH Member

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    I'm not exactly sure what the confusion is .

    Jon's point = Big markets should use their financial strength to their advantage via scouts and analytics but the advantage isn't that big because cost is minimal and there is a huge ROI
    Counter points against Jon = Yankees are a big market team and used their financial strength to get scouts
     
  41. crow216

    crow216 Dragon Wangler SoSH Member

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    It happened with Chapman, which I'm sure is the prime example here but not the norm.
     
  42. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    Well, NY traded for Chapman originally, they didn't sign him as a FA.
     
  43. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    It's hard to say if it happens. Maybe the Yankees intended on keeping Chapman, maybe not. The Marlins kinda do this, but they are the exact opposite of a big market team so...
     
  44. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I think a big market team could use its revenues to pay minor leaguers a higher wage too, offer catering, exercise equipment, and trainers for all their minor league players. I know the Redsox minor league system used to have a lot more perks than the Rays. Whether it is still true, I dunno.

    Even that is a pretty insignificant amount of money to these teams though. It seems like any advantage to be had now is around the margins, and even low payroll teams could find ways to match.
     
  45. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    162

    If you had said this right from the beginning, I wouldn't have said a word. I shouldn't be name called and threatened with a suspension because I can't read your mind. This wasn't what you said. It may be what you MEANT. But it's not what you said. I think there was a lot of misunderstanding on both our parts. I wasn't trying to "get" you.
     
    #45 Kun Aguero, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  46. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    38,138
    I felt like I did say that already, but apologies if I wasn’t as clear as I thought.
     
  47. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    162
    You kinda did in a roundabout way, but this is much better. I apologize if you felt I was attacking you. I wasn't. Just what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a contradiction.
     
  48. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    38,138
    OK, no worries, sorry for getting pissed off.
     
  49. Kun Aguero

    Kun Aguero lurker

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    162
    You're a Yankee fan. I'm a Red Sox fan. Either side getting pissed off from time to time is inevitable.
     
  50. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    38,138
    Bringing it back to the topic, I think that NY amped up their scouting in recent years because they were desperate to do something to try to counter BOS's incredible array of young position player talent, which looked at the time (2015/2016) that it would dominate the division for years to come.

    Now it's BOS's turn to figure out some kind of counter, they are still loaded at the MLB level but the pipeline needs work. Cashman is still loading up as best he can at the lower levels, the trades I mentioned upthread and NY ended up with 5 of the top 16 international FAs last year, a few with the extra money they traded for to try to get Ohtani. Loading up the farm system isn't traditionally a strength of Dombrowski's, as we all know, but that is going to need to change for BOS to maintain their elite team status.
     

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