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Sixers thread: now with expectations

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by LondonSox, May 30, 2018.

  1. ManicCompression

    ManicCompression lurker

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    So if you’re philly and you want to use Fultz to get a piece that’s going to help you contend during Butler’s prime, what can you reasonably expect?

    These trades work in the trade checker.

    - Fultz for Terence Ross: Orlando gets an upside play and distributor at PG, Philly gets a guy who can shoot 3 around league average, play a little d, and just in general be a low usage contributor

    - Fultz for Kent Bazemore: Atlanta can scratch another lottery ticket with a guy who can play next to Trae Young, Philly gets a good defensive two to play off ball, good locker room guy as well

    - Fultz for Avery Bradley (post Dec 15): clips swap for upside, Philly gets an injury prone, undersized sg who would actually be a pretty good fit with Simmons and butler (and on a good contract)

    - Fultz for Wes Matthews: I don’t really know why Dallas does this with Doncic and DSJ in the fold, but again, upside play for a team not going anywhere this year (and Carlisle would play 6 pgs at once if he could)

    Are these even in the ballpark? It’s really tough to find a salary match because sixers have no depth or/bad salary, and it’s also hard to find teams in a parity filled NBA that have the time to wait on Fultz to pan out. The deals don’t seem inspiring, but I can’t figure out what else he could reasonably fetch.
     
  2. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    One of Jacksons flaws prior to the draft was a rumored attitude problem too. On the court this year, he's been incredibly prone to fouls and turnovers in the early going.

    He's also a bad fit alongside Ayton re spacing. Add in the fact Warren has seemingly added in a reliable 3 point shot and Jackson is down to 15-20 minutes a game.

    And maybe he can play defense at an NBA level, but he hasn't yet. He's been pretty bad defensively.
     
  3. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe? At this point I think almost any team that acquires Fultz in a trade is doing so to dump salary. Orlando and LA may think they can compete for a playoff spot too. Dallas may be interested just to clear Matthews contract but both teams are over the cap so Philly would have to add another 10 mil in salary.

    Atlanta is an interesting option though. They really have nothing to lose and no reason at all to believe they may make the playoffs and there'd be no one blocking Fultz at SG.

    Maybe Rodney Hood or Justin Holiday would be options too. The Cavs and Bulls are going nowhere either. The Bulls do have Dunn and LaVine but Dunn is never healthy.
     
  4. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I think they put him running the second unit and have the ball in his hands and see what happens.

    His shot is all over right now, before that car crash one he had a perfectly fine one which went in. It's very odd.

    I think the sixers have given up on him being their guy. What a fricking disaster.

    I'm less worried about butler than some, his issue with the young wolves was defense and effort. Embiid is a fool but he works hard and is super competitive. Simmons I worry about a bit.

    I am really disappointed that he hasn't shown any improvement from last year despite how it ended. He has so much upside but i hope he is interested in it and not just the chicks.
     
  5. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Simmons hasn't regressed at all either though and it would be hard for him to show much improvement in some areas since the baseline is already so high.

    edit: Although his range could easily be improved and in the early going, it looks like it hasn't. In fact, he's only shooting about half as many 10+ foot shots as last year. His FT shooting is a little better.
     
  6. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Put a fork in Fultz, he's done, they need to move him.

    Fultz makes $8.3MM. Bazemore ($18MM this year, $19MM next) and Wes Matthews ($18MM) are too much salary. So they don't work unless you add Wilson Chandler

    Ross isn't a bad idea. I like Korver being moved for Fultz, if the Cavs blow it up.

    Knock on the Wizards door, see if they are blowing that up, and see what they want to do with Wall or Beal?

    76ers could add Chandler($12.8MM) and Muscala ($5MM) for salary (and add draft picks).

    Here is a good site to see if NBA deals work:
    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine
     
    #206 benhogan, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  7. ManicCompression

    ManicCompression lurker

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    88
    Weird - I used the realgm trade machine and they worked. I guess not all trade machines are equal.

    Fultz for Kelly Olynyk works. I know Miami wants to win now, but it’s a lower salary with less commitment. Also, Miami has a great track record of giving young talent second chances (whiteside, James Johnson, etc)
     
  8. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I see that too. If both teams are under the cap I think RealGM is correct and the trade works but I've not checked the cap status.

    I don't think PHI wants to take on salary to get rid of Fultz though.
     
  9. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know why you say this. I don't watch a lot of PHO games but by all reports of the people who do, JJ is at minimum an average defender (and potentially better) and I read something I can't find now that he is one of the the few Suns player who does put forth consistent effort.

    Here's something from early last year on JJ's defense: https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...re-translating-quicker-than-expected-suns-nba
     
  10. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    It wouldn't be only to dump Fultz as they are also in dire need of a quality second unit player or two. In a weird twisted way it is Fultz salary that could allow the Sixers to acquire one of these pieces.
     
  11. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I trust what I evaluate 100x more than some locals fluff article. That piece was from a month into the season and doesn't account for JJ's effort from December through April.

    I watched many Suns games over the second half of last season as I got involved in daily fantasy taking advantage of some of their bargain basement empty numbers guys. JJ was a complete dog but as I stated earlier much of that could have been the culture of losing. The early results after a fresh start this year do suggest it was more on JJ but I haven't watched much of the Suns this year.
     
  12. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    I was a Jackson fan, but for large stretches of last year Jackson played defense on cruise control. And he certainly hasn't expended a ton of effort this year on that end of the floor. Part of this is probably just the culture, and probably a reason why they finally added some vets to help improve things.

    But then again, nothing is preventing him from killing himself to get out on the floor. So part of the problem just might be a sense of entitlement and his frustration at having to compete for minutes.
     
  13. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    I admittedly don't watch a ton of Suns games, but everything in this article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/13/18089898/nba-2017-draft-class-progress) points to the opposite.

     
  14. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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  15. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Actually, the article cheech13 posted is from yesterday. It also supports your point. Like I said, I don't watch much PHO but some of the websites dedicated to the team have suggested the opposite. Maybe they are wrong.
     
  16. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Oooops I saw "2017" like the other one and assumed that was the publish date.
     
  17. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    It was published yesterday. The 2017 is in reference to his draft class. Again, I don't watch enough Suns games that I'll feel comfortable drawing my own conclusions about his game but I do trust Kevin O'Conner and the staff at the Ringer. The videos there seem to support a lot of the negative Jackson takes and give context to the bad numbers he's put up. That doesn't mean he can't get better, although I don't think there's much of a chance that happens in Phoenix. That organization is way too dysfunctional.
     
  18. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    This is my thinking, he would probably be better off playing for the Clippers or Spurs, or some other vet team that can help him get his head right. Because he could be Smart Lite on defense, and teams would put him on the floor as a reward, but he just hasn't busted ass in Phoenix, and the problem is almost certainly the organization.
     
  19. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    If a player isn't busting his ass on a rookie deal, isn't the problem almost certainly the player? The dysfunction of PHX certainly doesn't help but I'm putting most of this on Jackson. He's been given plenty of chances to show what he can do on the court and so far has not really done much with those chances.
     
  20. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    He was clearly the kind of player that wasn't going to flourish in an asylum run by the inmates. Phoenix has been on a multi-year tankjob that's finally paid off for them. But the lack of vet leadership to date has hurt a lot of the kids they had there, Jackson included.
     
  21. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    It might hurt development but it shouldn't hurt effort level.
     
  22. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    In a perfect world, yes, the effort would always be there, but we are talking about a 21-year-old kid that just played 82 games for the worst team in basketball. Then his coach got fired. Days before the season started his GM got fired. Now he's playing without a PG in a system that doesn't emphasize his skills under a coach and GM that didn't draft him and don't seem all that interested in developing him. I don't think it's that strange that he would drift a little, but maybe that's just me.
     
  23. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I disagree with this. The energy level throughout the roster on a day-to-day basis on contenders is much higher than on a team that is losing every night. A player in a winning environment with the focus on competing is certainly more apt to play harder than in a dysfunctional situation where the focus is all over the place and not on winning.
     
  24. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    There are other young guys on this team. Are they drifting too? Seems to me like Jackson has been singled out by Suns followers for his poor defense. I haven't watched the team enough this year to form a solid opinion but thought the question was worth asking.
     
  25. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    lottery picks in general are on really bad teams. Do lottery picks tend to drift? How about top 5 picks?
     
  26. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Yes absolutely. I was posting relentless about Bender's cluelessness for the past two years while people were still high on him. They weren't 30th in the league in DefRat for no reason. This is the team culture part where many of us are saying Jackson has no trade value but still has a chance to find his niche in the league if he gets to sit the bench and learn the NBA game in a winning and positive culture.

    There are really bad teams and then there are the Phoenix Suns of the past two years. JJ has been a large part of this problem but he wasn't done any favors to enter the league into this cluster.
     
  27. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    But he is still playing for his next contract. Almost all young players are giving it max effort, losing team or not. De'Andre Fox is doing just fine after playing 82 games with one of the worst franchises in the NBA.

    You are also arguing both points. In regards to the Celtics, you are basically saying Rozier and Brown would be better off with the Suns because being on a winning team is limiting their development.
     
  28. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    I think there is a difference between bad teams and dysfunctional teams. Phoenix is the latter. They have a cheap, petulant owner. Coaches and GMs come and go. They change course on a whim from tanking to trying to win. They switch systems yearly. Worst of all they've shown no ability to find talent or develop it. Some guys are good enough to overcome that; some aren't. Jackson may be a lost cause but I don't know how you could say that definitively based on what he's had to work with there.
     
  29. Cellar-Door

    Cellar-Door Member SoSH Member

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    Devin Booker's defense is as bad (that's generous, it's worse) but he scores. Jackson has been bad, but his defense is probably being singled out because it was supposed to be NBA ready and his calling card. If he was burying 3s and playing well on offense it would be less talked about.
     
  30. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Yes and much of this is on JJ who is a huge bust. All I'm saying is that the Suns situation didn't do him any favors toward his development.

    This is not what I'm saying. What I said was that their have been multiple agents not allow their clients to workout for the Celtics due to a lack of opportunity to put up numbers during their rookie contract. This isn't an opinion this really happened with at least Dunn, Jackson, and Ball.

    Ainge drafted great with both Rozier and Jaylen, each of whom were "HRB-approved" on draft night (lol). Both players would be in better individual situations if they had the ball in their hands as a more focal point of an offense heading into FA but not necessarily in a dysfunctional situation like Phoenix. Look at what Rozier did last year? If not for Kyrie's injury his value would be FAR different around the league than it is today.
     
  31. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    8,890
    I don't think he's a "lost cause." I just don't think he's going to be good. Maybe 3rd guy off the bench.
     
  32. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    Sounds like his agent should have been pulling out all the stops to keep him from winding up on this Suns team!
     
  33. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Yeah in hindsight for sure. JJ's initial exposure to the NBA was Bledsoe tweeting that he wants out after the first week of the season. The Suns had some stabilizing veterans in place w Chandler and Dudley too. They weren't good but the Suns weren't expected to be THAT dysfunctional.
     
  34. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Since the Sixers thread has turned into the Suns thread here is something to get it back on track.

    Sixers in Orlando tonight for Butler's debut. He's in the starting lineup along with Redick as Fultz heads to the bench.
     
  35. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I scouted JJ a lot when it was looking like he might be the sixers pick.
    I was initially high on him and especially his floor as a defender, but I actually dropped him out of the lottery afterwards.
    I saw constantly bad defensive plays, and an almost negative defensive bbiq the hype on his d is all rep and althletic ability. He's reckless and switches off, off ball.

    Ayton is also poor, Booker is car crash defensively I don't think sixers fans (and Celtics) appreciate how rare it is for young players to be solid or good defensively
     
  36. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I watched the first 3Qs of the game. I noticed that PHI ran more than a few Butler-Embiid PnRs, which is good in theory but doesn't leave Simmons with much to do other than stand on the baseline.

    Simmons' usage percentage was 11.8%, by far the lowest of the season. Not drawing conclusions from one game but certainly something to watch.
     
  37. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    Eh sure but not like he can't cut and at times might not even be in the floor. I think they will do stuff like use Simmons on the short roll, which his passing and size and finishing ability are all fun and embiid can space some. I really think over time Joel is going to be a solid 3 point shooter. His form is good, his touch on elbow jumpers etc is silly good.

    I think you can use Simmons basically, it's not like there haven't been non shooting bigs before, and very few with his passing and iq
     
  38. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    But someone else in that lineup has to be the one who just sits out on the three point line spacing the floor and waiting for the kickout. It isn't going to be Butler. And it isn't going to be Simmons. So when you have the Butler/Embiid pick n roll, Simmons is just causing problems by being either in the way, or not being anywhere close to a threat at the three point line.

    I think Brown will figure something out, but I think he needs to stagger Butler and Simmons as much as possible.
     
  39. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    This was my position on Simmons last summer when talk of LeBron in Philly surfaced here. This is what Simmons looks like when he has to play off the ball. It's similar to Ball in LA but at least Ball can set a back screen then flair to the wing to spot-up for a 3.......Simmons has nowhere to go. People suggested he cuts to the basket, etc but the last thing you want when running a PNR is the weak side guy drawing his defender into the gaps.

    I will maintain my position at this point that while the Sixers may not be a trainwreck (Butler adds too much raw talent) it won't do much to improve the team as a whole.
     
  40. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Wonder if Simmons is going to quietly get shopped for a better fit at some point.
     
  41. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    If PHI knew that they could get Butler for Saric and Covington (+ Bayless), wondered if they would have given up Simmons for Kawhi? That would be some team.
     
  42. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    It would but that would be way too much uncertainty to take on with both Butler and Kawhi hitting FA. Moving a couple role players for Butler is high risk/high reward enough on its own which I don't mind. If Butler does stay you have to restructure the core of that team imo just as you would had to have done with LeBron there.
     
  43. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I think that trade left their bench a little short.
     
  44. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I think the assumption Simmons can't be the roll man or work off ball at all, ever is a bit much.

    We know he needs a shot, he needed it before Butler and he needs it now. But I see no reason. He can't be the short roll guy and in today's game at crunch time they cleared out and isoed for a Simmons one on one drive, which he converted with a foul and then a sublime pass for a butler layup.

    He's exceptional for his age defensively too. He is just a really good player despite huge warts. His upside if he removes those warts is huge.

    I hope this forces him to adapt
     
  45. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Everyone on the Sixers saying all the right things in this article: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...es-philadelphia-76ers-teammates-win-utah-jazz. And they are correct, they can be beastly on defense.

    As for Simmons, he's one of the most talented and entertaining players in the NBA and seems to be focused on all of the right things. But it will be interesting to see how far his teams can go without a credible jump shot.
     
  46. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

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    I don’t know if he can’t work off ball “at all” or whatever but it’s obviously an enormous crutch. His jump shot is so bad his defender can just leave him anytime he’s on the perimeter and someone on the sixers cuts to the basket. You’re always playing against double teams. It’s going to be the offensive version of trying to play defense with IT4 on the court. He could play brilliantly the rest of the time but it’s a handicap that likely puts a ceiling on a team built around him as an off ball player.

    He’s going to cause problems for his team in the playoffs even with the ball in his hands as we saw last year but teams have overcome a no shot PG before.
     
  47. Cellar-Door

    Cellar-Door Member SoSH Member

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    The biggest problem of Simmons off-ball is that the few things he can do off-ball are also the things Butler and Embiid do best off-ball, so in crunch time you have 3 guys who are much better inside 12 feet than outside it, which makes things a lot easier for the defense even if all 3 guys are really good at what they do
     
  48. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    So the Sixers are playing a but over their heads.

    They have a roughly zero point differential and are lucky to have the record they do, and this is with an MVP type start, and a real leap, from Embiid.

    Simmons is starting to shake off a slow start, but there is zero sign of any improvement in even taking jumpers. His FT is better, and I expect the results to sneak up, but still low as the elbow still tries to flare.

    I'm pretty sure they are trying to improve his form here first in a more controlled place and then expand to shooting. This seems ridiculously conservative, except he can't do it at the line consistently so.... Maybe they were just realistic. Where he is starting to be used more is getting insane position in the post on a mismatch or off a cut and also passing and finishing out of the short roll. I think we see more as he and Butler figure it out.

    However, the loss of saric and Covington has left them without a natural 4, down a lot of shooting. More redick and Shamet have helped the shooting but there's a defensive penalty there. The rebounding has dipped in the last few games, I'd expect Simmons to be getting more without the two big wings. Feels like discipline more than anything.

    The solution at the 4 that has worked has been Chandler. But he's not that great and also expecting him to stay healthy as a need is a terrible idea given history.
    The solution that hasn't worked as well has been Muscala. He's a very good backup for Joel and for an uptempo 5 out lineup when he sits etc - which it took most of the season to get to. They keep playing Amir but I think he's about done.

    The real postive so far this season is Joel. Stud. He's doing top 5 scoring and rebounding and there still looks like so much more potential.

    Butler has had his moments, to say the least, and he and Ben look great in transition. He looks like the new rules have hurt him on perimeter defense, but you'd bet on him to adjust the effort and skills are still there.
    A lot to figure out though. Make butler work outside here's the ball in iso in the 4th, figure out the 4 and fix the defense because it's exposing whatever weak link is on the floor (and there always is one) constantly

    I'm just ignoring Fultz because WTAF is happening. What a joke.
     
  49. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    LS, down a bit on Ben Simmons?
    Can Simmons, Embiid and Butler really thrive together clogging the paint? Ainge is always their w/ a helping hand.

    Danny offers Jaylen Brown + Rozier + Daniel Theis + 1st round pick(s)
    FOR
    Simmons + TJ McConnell.

    Is Brand picking up that call? OR has the Celtic hotline been ripped out of the wall and smashed to pieces?

    This immediately makes the Sixers deeper (draft pick(s) can be dealt for more talent). Potentially better this season. More financial flexibility next season.


    ducks, cheesesteaks go whizzing by.
     
    #249 benhogan, Nov 27, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  50. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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    Landry Shamet over last 9 games, 19-for-38 from beyond the arc. Up to 21 minutes per game. Redick has taken him under his wing. A nice development for Philly from the 26th pick in the 2018 draft. His defense is a work in progress. 6-foot-5 and 180 pounds. Needs to bulk up a bit.
     

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