Should baseball expand again?

Murderer's Crow

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I don't think looking at areas with the highest population necessarily correlates to where the best landing spot for a team would be so I'd love to see if there was some data out there outlining MLB viewership and memorabilia sales outside of MLB markets. Just please God don't put another team in Florida or California.
 

hbk72777

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Charlotte could easily do it. Make them an AL East team (move Toronto to another division, nobody cares about them). There's a huge Northeast base that would attend  Red Sox, Yankees and Orioles games. Everyone I've met since I moved down here is from Long Island/NYC, Jersey, Pennsylvania or Boston.
 
It works for the Panthers, half of the stadium is filled with Giants fans when they play (there were so many, Rich Eisen really thought they all flew in for a Thursday night game in 2012, moron)
 
         Concord (right outside Charlotte) is building tons of homes starting in the 300's up to the 900s (while those prices are for average Northeast homes, here, they're sick mini mansions). No locals can afford them. They are being built specifically  for the Northeasterners. These people have plenty of disposable income, and there is jackshit to do down here. Baseball would be wise to take advantage.
 

Beomoose

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I remain unconvinced about the homeliness of British women. Ahem.

English girls aren't bad, but BRITISH? Disaster.
 

dbn

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Anchorage.  
 
Okay, maybe not. To get serious, is Las Vegas too hot for baseball? I've gotten a nasty sunburn just driving through LV with the top down on my car. The average high in July is one hundred five degrees. That's 13 degrees higher than Houston and 17 degrees higher than Miami. No one is going to sit in the desert sun for 3+ hrs watching a game in 110o heat, so they'd have to have a domed stadium. Domed stadiums suck.
 
A MLB team succeeding in Las Vegas? I wouldn't bet on it.
 

dbn

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Personally, I love the idea of a team in Latin America. However, I wonder if the language and cultural barriers might leave such a team with serious disadvantages in free agency and/or signing draft picks. It's one thing for, say, a 18 year old from rural TX deciding to sign with the Bluejays over going to Texas A&M on a full scholarship, and another for, say, a kid from NC to give up a scholarship to UNC to sign with Mexico City. 
 

trekfan55

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There are many factors that have to be dealt with if/when baseball wants to place an MLB franchise in Latin America.
 
For one, many of these countries already have leagues of their own, also there are several hurdles to go through for Visas/work permits/documents, etc.  And how do they get paid?
 
Finally, an important point, how many people would be willing to move to let's say Mexico City and move their family, their kids, etc.?  Or would players be separated from their families for the season?
 

Rice4HOF

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trekfan55 said:
... many of these countries already have leagues of their own, also there are several hurdles to go through for Visas/work permits/documents, etc. And how do they get paid?
The Toronto Blue Jays say hello.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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The cultural differences between Montreal and the US (or English Canada for that matter) are dwarfed by those between Mexico and the rest of north america. 
 
- Its not easy for the Blue Jays to attract free agents - Toronto being in a foreign country - even if it seems, on the surface to be similar (endless complaints about "WHERE'S MY ESPN????")
- it was harder still for the Expos to attract free agents - it does seem like you are visiting a foreign country when you visit (this from the perspective of an English speaking Canadian - this is a good thing though - I love it there)
- Mexico ? One might think it would be easier to attract Hispanic players and more difficult for the rest. (Racist reasoning ? Not meaning to stereotype anyone) 
 
I know Mexico City is absolutely huge  - and one imagines that they have a large enough population base that could afford MLB ticket prices and corporate sponsorship. One assumes they would need a covered stadium - far too much heat and smog otherwise.
 

trekfan55

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Rice4HOF said:
The Toronto Blue Jays say hello.
 
Frankly, I'm not sure how the Canadian Government works out all the issues regarding visas and stuff for the baseball players and staff.  But the bureaucracy that should be expected in places like Mexico, the Dominican Republic, or other Latin countries should be bigger. 
 

Robert Plant

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BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
The cultural differences between Montreal and the US (or English Canada for that matter) are dwarfed by those between Mexico and the rest of north america. 
 
- Its not easy for the Blue Jays to attract free agents - Toronto being in a foreign country - even if it seems, on the surface to be similar (endless complaints about "WHERE'S MY ESPN????")
- it was harder still for the Expos to attract free agents - it does seem like you are visiting a foreign country when you visit (this from the perspective of an English speaking Canadian - this is a good thing though - I love it there)
- Mexico ? One might think it would be easier to attract Hispanic players and more difficult for the rest. (Racist reasoning ? Not meaning to stereotype anyone) 
 
I know Mexico City is absolutely huge  - and one imagines that they have a large enough population base that could afford MLB ticket prices and corporate sponsorship. One assumes they would need a covered stadium - far too much heat and smog otherwise.
I'd think MLB players would love Montreal. After all there are a lot of strip clubs. Don't professional athletes generally love strippers?
 
Also, if baseball comes back to Montreal, will they bring back Youppi? Of course, they would have to share him with the Canadians.
 

snowmanny

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Remember what Mark Langston said about playing in Montreal: "it's like a foreign country up there."
 

Sampo Gida

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Not sure folks in Latin America can afford MLB ticket prices.  I mean, there has to be something in it for owners and they need enough revenue to pay MLB salaries.  Owners are not going to consider expansion into places that will add more revenue sharing recipients.
 
I would actually like to see a new league instead of expansion.   Retired players, or soon to be retired players have enough money to invest in such an enterprise,  although I would have to imagine concerns about their pensions would loom large.   Maybe call it a Veterans Major league and have them play in the winter so as to not compete with MLB.  For ex MLB players aged 35 or over, and ex-minor leaguers aged 30 or over.  Just for fun their World Series winner can play some ST games against the MLB's World Series winner.
 

terrisus

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Sampo Gida said:
I would actually like to see a new league instead of expansion.   Retired players, or soon to be retired players have enough money to invest in such an enterprise,  although I would have to imagine concerns about their pensions would loom large.   Maybe call it a Veterans Major league and have them play in the winter so as to not compete with MLB.  For ex MLB players aged 35 or over, and ex-minor leaguers aged 30 or over.  Just for fun their World Series winner can play some ST games against the MLB's World Series winner.
 
I have an idea - let's call it the Senior Circuit!...
 
Hmm, actually on second thought, the National League might take issue with that.
Ah well.
 
Seriously though, I don't really see that working - Baseball isn't like Golf, by the time most players hit retirement age, they're ready to retire. You'll just have to enjoy your "Old Timers' Days".
 

Rice4HOF

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terrisus said:
I have an idea - let's call it the Senior Circuit!...

Hmm, actually on second thought, the National League might take issue with that.
Ah well.

Seriously though, I don't really see that working - Baseball isn't like Golf, by the time most players hit retirement age, they're ready to retire. You'll just have to enjoy your "Old Timers' Days".
Am I the only one to remember the Senior Professional baseball league or whatever it was called? Ran a couple of seasons in Florida in the early 90s. I still have a baseball card of Jim Rice on the St. Petes Pelicans. I remember Bill Lee pitching to Tony Perez in a championship game. It was like a 1975 déjà vu 20 years later.

But, yeah, otherwise your points stands
 

Bozo Texino

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Give us a team in Central Texas.  Hell, put the stadium in San Marcos or New Braunfels - you'd draw well from both Austin and San Antonio.
 
(Note: this will never happen)
 

Infield Infidel

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Spacemans Bong said:
The Jays and Mets are going to play two games at Stade Olympique in March. They've already sold over 100,000 tickets.
 
Whoa.
 
Note: these are for exhibition games, not real games like the ones in Japan and Australia
 

terrisus

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Rice4HOF said:
Am I the only one to remember the Senior Professional baseball league or whatever it was called? Ran a couple of seasons in Florida in the early 90s. I still have a baseball card of Jim Rice on the St. Petes Pelicans. I remember Bill Lee pitching to Tony Perez in a championship game. It was like a 1975 déjà vu 20 years later.
 
Hopefully this time Lee didn't throw an Eephus pitch.
Maybe walked him, or hit him in the leg, or something.
 
So, yeah, I suppose a "senior league" could be a chance for some players to get some revenge at least.
 

8slim

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I'm surprised people suggest northern Jersey as a viable location, putting aside the fact that the Yankees and Mets will never let it happen.
 
The Devils and Nets historically drew poorly, even when those franchises were very competitive.  
 
The Devils won the Cup in 2000, and the following season (when pre-season ticket sales should be strong and the team ended up played for the Cup again) they drew 15.4K/game, 19th in the league and just 80% of their arena's capacity.
 
The Nets played in back-to-back finals in 2002 and 2003, and in that '02-'03 season they drew 15.2K/game, 23rd in the league and just 76% capacity.
 
Lots of people there just don't adopt "new" Jersey teams and continue to root for the NYC-based franchises.  I can't see how a Jersey baseball team would fare any better.
 

Infield Infidel

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It depends on what one thinks is a market. Is Anaheim in Los Angeles' market? If so, then it'd be the Ducks.
 
If not, I think you'd have to go way back into the 70s, and even then it's teams coming from rival leagues like the WHL, ABA, etc. 
 
Still Brooklyn might not be a bad idea, seeing as NYC is not only the largest but also the most densely populated city in the country. I'm sure every team not called the Yankees or Mets would be thrilled
 

terrisus

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8slim said:
 
When is the last time a professional sports league "expanded" into a market that already had a franchise?
 
Granted it was relocation, not expansion, but, the Orioles took a decent amount of issue at the Expos being relocated to Washington DC.
And, California is certainly fairly packed with teams.
 
The New York metropolitan area certainly has the population to support 3 teams - as it did in the past.
Only having 2 teams there seems to have created a fairly significant imbalance.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I looked at US Media Markets and arbitrarily picked 3.3M (12+ population) as a theoretical unit. Here's how many units the top media centers have:
 
NYC: 4.6
LA: 3.2
CHI: 2.3
SFO: 1.8
DAL: 1.4
PHI: 1.3
HOU: 1.3
DC: 1.2
BOS: 1.2
DET: 1.2
ATL: 1.1
MIA: 1.1
PR: 1.0
SEA: 1.0
PHO: 0.9
MIN: 0.8
SD: 0.8
LI: 0.7
BAL: 0.7
STL: 0.7
TAM: 0.7
DEN: 0.7
PIT: 0.6
CLE: 0.6
CIN: 0.5
SAC: 0.5
RIV: 0.5
KC: 0.5
SA: 0.5
SLC: 0.5
SJO: 0.4
MIL: 0.4
 
The list has to be viewed subjectively, because teams like St. Louis have a much larger audience than just the STL market, but on the other hand...
 
You need to combine close markets like
- NYC / Long Island
- LA / Riverside
- SFO / San Jose / Sacramento
 
A couple of things obviously stand out concerning baseball's monopoly:
 
- The New York Market is obscenely under-served
- LA & SFO are also in great markets - go explain that, Oakland 
- Tampa is surprisingly near the middle (I thought it was much smaller)
- PIT, CLE, CIN, KC & MIL are in rough shape (and all field decent teams)
 
But to the point of this thread:
 
Puerto Rico is surprisingly well-positioned for a team, and
Salt Lake City enters the mix
 
The top Media Markets in Canada are (predictably) Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver...I can't find population data.
 

Beomoose

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Would be interesting to see data on how well a team in Puerto Rico would draw from the region.
 

Sampo Gida

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terrisus said:
 
I have an idea - let's call it the Senior Circuit!...
 
Hmm, actually on second thought, the National League might take issue with that.
Ah well.
 
Seriously though, I don't really see that working - Baseball isn't like Golf, by the time most players hit retirement age, they're ready to retire. You'll just have to enjoy your "Old Timers' Days".
 
I don't know, I see a lot of players who would like to continue playing but just don't want to sign minor league deals.  While some elite players who have made tens of millions may be ready for retirement early there are a players who have not done nearly as well and the chance to play for a couple hundred K a year might be their best job opportunity.  Even guys like Manny Ramirez might play.  Not talking about 50+ yo but guys who can still play a bit.   Some of them may play well enough to get a ST invite and it could be a way to get back to MLB w/o spending time in the minors.  There would have to be some fan interest for tickets and TV deals and such to be viable. A policy of no PED testing  and a juiced ball could make it an interesting alternative in the winter although northerners would have to be content with watching on TV in the winter.
 

VORP Speed

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8slim said:
When is the last time a professional sports league "expanded" into a market that already had a franchise?
MLS, which recently put another team in NYC. Given their set-up they can do what's best for the league. If baseball didn't have to worry about Mets/Yankees raising hell, Brooklyn would clearly be the next MLB destination.
 

Fred not Lynn

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But how many NEW baseball fans will a third NYC team create? I don't think you're going to add overall clientele that way as much as you will in another city.

If you're inclined to be a baseball fan, you're already going to Mets and Yankees games.
 

Orel Miraculous

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The 2003 Expos played 22 games in Hiram Bithorn Stadium and averaged around 14,000 per game. The 2004 Expos played 22 games in Hiram Bithorn Stadium and averaged around 10,000 per game. So
 
geoduck no quahog said:
 
Puerto Rico is surprisingly well-positioned for a team,
 
 
 
I'm not so sure about that.
 

8slim

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terrisus said:
Granted it was relocation, not expansion, but, the Orioles took a decent amount of issue at the Expos being relocated to Washington DC.
And, California is certainly fairly packed with teams.

The New York metropolitan area certainly has the population to support 3 teams - as it did in the past.
Only having 2 teams there seems to have created a fairly significant imbalance.
The Baltimore DMA is adjacent, but seperate, to the Washington, DC DMA. So that doesn't count. And people should be looking at DMAs when they talk about "markets" because that is the classification that TV uses, and we all know that is what drives sports.

I think the Anaheim Ducks is the answer to my question, and that was 20 years ago (and hockey).

It makes zero sense for MLB to put a new team in a DMA that already has one.
 
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8slim said:
 

And people should be looking at DMAs when they talk about "markets" because that is the classification that TV uses, and we all know that is what drives sports.
 
Using DMAs the 10 biggest markets without an MLB team are: (and the markets within 200 miles)
1) Orlando, FL (TB)
2) Sacramento, CA (OAK & SF)
3) Portland, OR (SEA)
4) Raleigh-Durham, NC (NONE)
5) Charlotte, NC (NONE)
6) Indianapolis, IN (CIN)
7) Nashville, TN (NONE)
8) Hartford, CT (BOS, NYY & NYM country)
9) Columbus, OH (CIN & CLE)
10) Salt Lake City, UT (NONE)
 
That would point us at a team in one of the NC cities and another in either Nashville or Salt Lake City. (And move the A's to Sacramento)
 
Interestingly enough the biggest DMAs without a team in one of the big 4 are
1) Raleigh-Durham, NC (CHAR) Carolina Hurricanes say i'm an idiot (thank you 8slim)
2) Hartford, CT (BOS, NY)
3) Greenville (ATL, CHAR)
4) West Palm Beach, FL (MIA)
5) Grand Rapids, MI (CHI, DET)
6) Las Vegas, NV (NONE)
7) Birmingham, AL (ATL, NASH)
8) Harrisburg, PA (BALT, PHI, PITT, WASH)
9) Norfolk, VA (BALT & WASH)
10) Austin, TX (ARL, DAL, HOU, SA)
 

8slim

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Champagne Shower For Gabe said:
 
Using DMAs the 10 biggest markets without an MLB team are: (and the markets within 200 miles)
1) Orlando, FL (TB)
2) Sacramento, CA (OAK & SF)
3) Portland, OR (SEA)
4) Raleigh-Durham, NC (NONE)
5) Charlotte, NC (NONE)
6) Indianapolis, IN (CIN)
7) Nashville, TN (NONE)
8) Hartford, CT (BOS, NYY & NYM country)
9) Columbus, OH (CIN & CLE)
10) Salt Lake City, UT (NONE)
 
That would point us at a team in one of the NC cities and another in either Nashville or Salt Lake City. (And move the A's to Sacramento)
 
Interestingly enough the biggest DMAs without a team in one of the big 4 are
1) Raleigh-Durham, NC (CHAR)
2) Hartford, CT (BOS, NY)
3) Greenville (ATL, CHAR)
4) West Palm Beach, FL (MIA)
5) Grand Rapids, MI (CHI, DET)
6) Las Vegas, NV (NONE)
7) Birmingham, AL (ATL, NASH)
8) Harrisburg, PA (BALT, PHI, PITT, WASH)
9) Norfolk, VA (BALT & WASH)
10) Austin, TX (ARL, DAL, HOU, SA)
The Carolina Hurricanes are in Raleigh. Hartford-New Haven is actually the largest DMA without a big 4 pro team.
 

Awesome Fossum

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geoduck no quahog said:
As stated above, Puerto Rico has a DMA of more than 3.1M, which is pretty big.
San Juan has bodies and an appetite for the game, but my understanding is that they lack the disposable income and corporate money to really be a major league quality market.
 
Jan 26, 2014
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geoduck no quahog said:
As stated above, Puerto Rico has a DMA of more than 3.1M, which is pretty big.
 
True, looking at the Nielsen site I pulled the info from only has continental US apparently.
 
The only issue I have with PR is the travel issues... I might be wrong but I find it hard to believe that a team based there wouldn't have to deal with a higher level of fatigue just from the travel. We complain when the Sox have to travel to the west coast becasue they always seem to get burnt out (except this year). Now imagine a team in PR having a majority of their away games being close to the same distance as the sox west coast travel (and when they do go west coast it would be significantly more.
 
I know the Expos played 44 games there over the two seasons but I'm not sure that is long enough to see/feel the effects... again I could be totally wrong but this is why I always thought it wouldn't happen.
 

Sampo Gida

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geoduck no quahog said:
As stated above, Puerto Rico has a DMA of more than 3.1M, which is pretty big.
 
Yeah, but can they afford MLB ticket prices
 
 
 
In comparison to the different states of the United States, Puerto Rico is poorer than the poorest state of the United States with 41% of its population below the poverty line
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Puerto_Rico
 
Also, teams that far outside the USA will have to pay a premium to land free agents.  Only way it works is if MLB heavily subsidizes these teams in the belief that it pays dividends at some later time..
 
edit-as Awesome Fossum already pointed out, gotta get my eyes checked
 

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Given how expensive it is to go to a MLB game now, does it make sense to add even more AAAA players into the league?  Or to watch Ubaldo Jimenez as your #1 starter?  At these prices, I think a fan should only see the best of the best and I think it'd make more sense to lop off a couple of teams and take the league to 28 teams.
 
While they're at it, it'd also make sense to create a better competitive balance and move a couple of small market teams to bigger markets like Brooklyn and Montreal as it's been suggested.  At some point I think owners would see the benefit of having larger markets kicking into the league kitty rather than taking from it.
 
To repeat an earlier point - this age of satellite, cable means it's a lot easier to watch a team in your region so it's not as dire to not have a team in your city.  Besides, there's always room for a minor league team in a good market.  The Sacramento River Cats are a great example as they are among the leaders in attendance year after year, have a nice new stadium that didn't break anyone and the fans get competitive baseball at a decent price.  Why screw that up attempting to shoehorn in a new team on an entirely different economic plane?