Second Guesser's Club - Drew: The Reboot.

[absintheofmalaise]

Game 1: 7:05
Game 2: 7:05 MLBN
Game 3: 7:05
 
[tablegrid= Probable Starters ]Name W L G GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP LOB% GB% HR/FB ERA FIP xFIP John Lackey 6 3 11 11 71.2 8.54 1.76 0.88 0.322 77.00% 44.10% 9.10% 3.27 3.03 3.15 Justin Masterson 2 4 12 12 67.1 7.75 4.41 0.67 0.325 63.50% 59.40% 11.60% 5.21 4.09 3.96                                 Jake Peavy 1 2 11 11 68 6.88 3.84 1.32 0.294 76.50% 41.00% 11.50% 4.5 4.73 4.48 T.J. House 0 1 3 2 13.1 6.08 2.03 1.35 0.35 81.40% 65.90% 28.60% 4.05 4.57 3.3                                 Brandon Workman 0 0 5 2 16.2 7.56 3.78 0.54 0.255 75.30% 42.60% 6.30% 3.24 3.43 3.89 Corey Kluber 6 3 12 12 80 10.69 2.03 0.56 0.347 75.00% 45.60% 7.10% 3.04 2.22 2.54 [/tablegrid]

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I love SSS anomalies: House give up a dinger on more than one in four fly balls. Looks like both he and Masterson have been unlucky, though Masterson is clearly having some control issues. That's unlike him. 
 
Is it a forgone conclusion that Drew will start?

 

[pokey_reese]

Suddenly, being forced to field so many LHH doesn't seem so bad, with Masterson up first, and Kluber being slightly less nasty against lefties.

 

[absintheofmalaise]

No Drew tonight it looks like.
 
Maureen Mullen @MaureenaMullen

Red sox roster moves: Carp DL. Cecchini back to paw. Drew up tomorrow. And Nava also up tomorrow.
 
This matches my screw up in the Tampa SGC thread. Let's hope it yields the same results.

 

[smastroyin]

So they are playing two short tonight?  That seems pretty odd.

 

[absintheofmalaise]

So they are playing two short tonight?  That seems pretty odd.

Old tweet. My fuck up. 

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Tonight's line up. I double checked the date.
 
Holt 1B
Bogaerts 3B
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
AJP C
Gomes LF
Sizemore RF
Drew SS
JBJ CF
Lackey RHP
 

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Man - Sizemore, Drew, JBJ, Holt is a lot of lefties in a row. Could work out against Masterson. 

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Cleveland:
 
Bourn CF
Cabrera SS
Brantley LF
Kipnis 2B
Chisenhall 1B
Giambi DH
Gomes C
Murphy RF
Aviles 3B
Masterson RHP

 

[Reverend]

So they are playing two short tonight?  That seems pretty odd.

 
Well, they have one 7 in a row...
 

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Man - Sizemore, Drew, JBJ, Holt is a lot of lefties in a row. Could work out against Masterson. 

Kind of surprised Nava isn't in there too

 

[Adrian's Dome]

Kind of surprised Nava isn't in there too

 
I'm really starting to believe Farrell hates Nava. Has he seen the plate against a RHP since coming back up?
 
If he can't get into a game against Masterson of all pitchers, I don't see him getting in any.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Farrell has said point blank that Gomes is his full time starter in LF now.  Despite the logic and sensibility of restoring the Nava/Gomes platoon now that Nava has shown signs of shaking off his funk in the minors, Farrell is going to stubbornly stick to his declaration.  Unlike when he did it in the post-season, at least this time he has Nava's lack of production earlier in the season as an excuse.  Doesn't make it any more right, but there it is.

 

[Plympton91]

Farrell has said point blank that Gomes is his full time starter in LF now.  Despite the logic and sensibility of restoring the Nava/Gomes platoon now that Nava has shown signs of shaking off his funk in the minors, Farrell is going to stubbornly stick to his declaration.  Unlike when he did it in the post-season, at least this time he has Nava's lack of production earlier in the season as an excuse.  Doesn't make it any more right, but there it is.

Yup, Jonny Gomes is to John Farrell as mystique and aura are to the Yankees.

Why is it that if we must have all these injuries to this team they can't at least happen to the players who the manager insists on misusing?

Ras noted all spring that players like Nava often turn out to be flashes in the pan. I wonder how much that has to do with confirmation bias among people like Farrell that dominate the manager ranks. It's tough to have a long career when you're one 60 at bat slump away from being buried for the manager's binkie no matter how good your previous 500 at bats were. I'd gather almost every active major leaguer had had a stretch as bad as Nava's April, but if you were an all-star 6 years ago, that's apparently good enough no matter how poorly you've performed since.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

Yup, Jonny Gomes is to John Farrell as mystique and aura are to the Yankees.

Why is it that if we must have all these injuries to this team they can't at least happen to the players who the manager insists on misusing?

Ras noted all spring that players like Nava often turn out to be flashes in the pan. I wonder how much that has to do with confirmation bias among people like Farrell that dominate the manager ranks. It's tough to have a long career when you're one 60 at bat slump away from being buried for the manager's binkie no matter how good your previous 500 at bats were. I'd gather almost every active major leaguer had had a stretch as bad as Nava's April, but if you were an all-star 6 years ago, that's apparently good enough no matter how poorly you've performed since.

 
The thing that kills me is that it's just so basic and straightforward:
 
They both play the same primary position.
 
Neither are great defensive players, maybe Gomes is slightly better.
 
Nava is a plus bat against RHP and is ineffective vs LHP.
 
Gomes is a plus bat against LHP and is ineffective vs RHP.
 
Playing the matchups and having the other on the bench for PHing purposes later on in case of a LOOGY/ROOGY is about an ideal a situation you can get given the option.
 
Instead, Gomes starts vs a pitcher that kills RHB, and I die a little on the inside.

 

[syoo8]

How much input do you think Cherington has in Gomes being made into a full-time player?  Is this decision made solely by Farrell?  I have a hard time believing that.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Farrell has said point blank that Gomes is his full time starter in LF now.  Despite the logic and sensibility of restoring the Nava/Gomes platoon now that Nava has shown signs of shaking off his funk in the minors, Farrell is going to stubbornly stick to his declaration.  Unlike when he did it in the post-season, at least this time he has Nava's lack of production earlier in the season as an excuse.  Doesn't make it any more right, but there it is.

I wonder if this is only until Victorino gets back, at which point Sizemore and Gomes platoon.

 

[Coachster]

I wonder if this is only until Victorino gets back, at which point Sizemore and Gomes platoon.

Probably, which means that Nava is completely superfluous. If they aren't going to let him play now, he's not going to get it together, and will have no trade value whatsoever. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Nava has shown nothing to us TV viewers. I imagine he's shown substantially less to the guys in management.

Why assume there are ulterior motives to Nava being in the doghouse when the simplest explanation is that management has determined he sucks?

 

[nattysez]

Nava has shown nothing to us TV viewers. I imagine he's shown substantially less to the guys in management.

Why assume there are ulterior motives to Nava being in the doghouse when the simplest explanation is that management has determined he sucks?

Posnanski's article today about the A's ascribes some of their success to sticking with their plan and not getting too caught up in SSS. And down goes Gomes swinging on 3 pitches v a rhp.

 

[gammoseditor]

Even if Gomes is your "starter", Masterson is the type of pitcher you start a LHH bench player over a RHH starter over.

 

[Plympton91]

Posnanski's article today about the A's ascribes some of their success to sticking with their plan and not getting too caught up in SSS. And down goes Gomes swinging on 3 pitches v a rhp.

And Bradley with another 0-fer, and Sizemore with another 0-fer.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

 
The thing that kills me is that it's just so basic and straightforward:
 
They both play the same primary position.
 
Neither are great defensive players, maybe Gomes is slightly better.
 
Nava is a plus bat against RHP and is ineffective vs LHP.
 
Gomes is a plus bat against LHP and is ineffective vs RHP.
 
Playing the matchups and having the other on the bench for PHing purposes later on in case of a LOOGY/ROOGY is about an ideal a situation you can get given the option.
 
Instead, Gomes starts vs a pitcher that kills RHB, and I die a little on the inside.

 
Remember when Millar sucked and there was a strong alternative in Olerud/Peña? Francona kept putting Millar in the lineup and years later when someone said what a great teammate Millar had been, Francona's take was, "Yeah, when he's playing."
 
Maybe Gomes isn't such a great clubhouse guy when he's not in the starting lineup. If that's what's going on, I'm glad this is the last year on his deal.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

If anybody on this team deserves a DFA, it's Sizemore, not Nava. The latter hasn't been good this season in a super small sample but was great last year, the former hasn't been good in half a decade.

 

[radsoxfan]

Even if Gomes is your "starter", Masterson is the type of pitcher you start a LHH bench player over a RHH starter over.

 
Agreed.  This season, Gomes has a .185/.257/.323/.580 line vs RHP.  From 2011-2013, his line was .205/.314/.382/.696 vs. RHP.
 
I'm not quite sure what John Farrell is talking about. Gomes hasn't taken the job, he's just continued to mash LHP.  As expected.  
 
He is a huge liability vs. right handers, as he has been for awhile.  If Nava isn't good enough to get these ABs against a righty killer like Masterson, he shouldn't be on the roster and Ben needs to make some trades.  

 

[geoduck no quahog]

But what could Nava bring in trade that would be more valuable than him being parked in Pawtucket as insurance? Serious question.

 

[radsoxfan]

But what could Nava bring in trade that would be more valuable than him being parked in Pawtucket as insurance? Serious question.

 
Not much.  
 
Ben needs to make some trades for a left fielder that can hit RHP. He doesn't need to trade Nava. 

 

[Plympton91]

But what could Nava bring in trade that would be more valuable than him being parked in Pawtucket as insurance? Serious question.

He doesn't necessarily need to trade Nava, who probably wouldn't bring back anything right now. But if they're not going to use Nava in LF against RHers, and they want to compete this year, then they need to get a better left fielder than what they've got. If their conclusion is that Nava is toast, the the best they've got against RH is Gomes at a .700 career OPS vs righties. Make a trade.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

 
Not much.  
 
Ben needs to make some trades for a left fielder that can hit RHP. He doesn't need to trade Nava. 

 
Brock Holt might be that guy if Nava can't. Getting Victorino and Napoli into the lineup (and by extension, Sizemore out) would do a lot of good. Not starting Gomes against guys like Masterson would solve a lot of problems too.

 

[twibnotes]

I recall Theo and Tito spoke and aligned quite a bit. I'm sure cherington and Farrell do the same, but I'm confused bc I just can't believe cherington is OK with Gomes vs masterson tonight. Maybe he is, but it's hard to envision him endorsing Gomes over Nava there.

If nava can't start vs a guy like masterson, replace him with a 4th outfielder who can steal or play great D. What's the point of a guy whose strength is hitting righties if he rides the pine vs masterson?

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
Agreed.  This season, Gomes has a .185/.257/.323/.580 line vs RHP.  From 2011-2013, his line was .205/.314/.382/.696 vs. RHP.

 
Right, but .696 is not quite platoon-worthy. His career OPS vs. RHP is .728, almost league-average. And last year he barely had a platoon split at all (.745/.795). So I can give Farrell a tiny bit of slack for figuring that the law of averages says Gomes' offense vs. RHP will improve </nigeltufnel>.
 
I also think that if Nava were a better defensive player we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
All that said, I totally agree with gammoseditor that Masterson is the guy you start Nava against even if you buy all the above. It's mystifying, and it makes me think there must be behind-the-scenes stuff going on that we're not privy to--which may be as simple as "Farrell hates Nava", or it may not.

 

[Plympton91]

 
 
All that said, I totally agree with gammoseditor that Masterson is the guy you start Nava against even if you buy all the above. It's mystifying, and it makes me think there must be behind-the-scenes stuff going on that we're not privy to--which may be as simple as "Farrell hates Nava", or it may not.

 
I think more likely to be that Farrell loves Gomes' supposed intangibles, which we know from last season's playoffs, and maybe he has a soft spot for Sizemore too (were they together in Cleveland), and Nava getting hot would expedite Sizemore's DFA.

 

[radsoxfan]

 
Right, but .696 is not quite platoon-worthy. 

 
If you have someone who hits righties well, like Nava last year, it is. If Nava isn't going to get a chance to be that guy, Ben needs to find someone that Farrell will give that chance to.  I think Gomes will likely improve vs RHP this season (how could he not?)  But that doesn't mean he is a good option.  
 
Getting back to tonight, the decision to start Gomes in this particular game against Masterson is bizarre.  It's almost as if when he was filling out the line-up card, Farrell remembered that just told the media Gomes was his starter, so he didn't want to go back to playing platoons right away.  I hope that's not the reason, but I'm not sure I have a better one. 

 

[nattysez]

And Bradley with another 0-fer, and Sizemore with another 0-fer.

Well, the poor planning re OF depth led to Nava playing too much v lefties and struggling, which led to Farrell deciding he should make Gomes an everyday LF starter, which led to him starting Gomes v Masterson in a game that might've been winnable with one more big hit. So mistake begat mistake begat mistake.

 

[TheoShmeo]

[QUOTE="Hriniak]
Remember when Millar sucked and there was a strong alternative in Olerud/Peña? Francona kept putting Millar in the lineup and years later when someone said what a great teammate Millar had been, Francona's take was, "Yeah, when he's playing."
 
Maybe Gomes isn't such a great clubhouse guy when he's not in the starting lineup. If that's what's going on, I'm glad this is the last year on his deal.

[/QUOTE]Gomes has been known as a good clubhouse guy for years and he hasn't always been a starter.

The Gomes-Nava second guess is legit but I don't see a lot of basis to question how he handles himself in the clubhouse. There might be truth to that but I don't think we have much to go on as of now in that regard.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

 

 
Remember when Millar sucked and there was a strong alternative in Olerud/Peña? Francona kept putting Millar in the lineup and years later when someone said what a great teammate Millar had been, Francona's take was, "Yeah, when he's playing."
 
Maybe Gomes isn't such a great clubhouse guy when he's not in the starting lineup. If that's what's going on, I'm glad this is the last year on his deal.

 

Just a small point but I don't think Kevin Millar and Carlos Pena ever played on the Red Sox together. Pena played on the 2006 Red Sox (remember the Mark Loretta thread :barf: ) and Millar was gone by then.

 

[judyb]

Well, the poor planning re OF depth led to Nava playing too much v lefties and struggling, which led to Farrell deciding he should make Gomes an everyday LF starter, which led to him starting Gomes v Masterson in a game that might've been winnable with one more big hit. So mistake begat mistake begat mistake.

Gomes didn't start against a RHP as recently as May 25, Napoli was placed on the DL the next day and Gomes has started every game since. Could Gomes starting every day be an overreaction to their general lack of RH power in the lineup?

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Gomes didn't start against a RHP as recently as May 25, Napoli was placed on the DL the next day and Gomes has started every game since. Could Gomes starting every day be an overreaction to their general lack of RH power in the lineup?

 
That would seem to be the most sensible explanation. Either that or the Nava / Farrell relationship has gone completely off the rails.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I think Farrell is something of a hunch player. We saw that in the playoffs, where there was all the talk of Gomes "just helping the team win," and what not. The Sox were on a seven-game run where Gomes was in there every game. I think it's as simple as not fixing something that's not broken. 
 
I think that's stupid, but I think baseball culture engenders that kind of thinking. 
 
There were plenty of lefties in the game who couldn't hit Masterson, who came in allowing like a .900 OPS to lefties. He simply found something he'd been looking for and the Sox were unfortunate enough to be on the other side of it. 

 

[rembrat]

[QUOTE="Hriniak]
Remember when Millar sucked and there was a strong alternative in Olerud/Peña? Francona kept putting Millar in the lineup and years later when someone said what a great teammate Millar had been, Francona's take was, "Yeah, when he's playing."
 
Maybe Gomes isn't such a great clubhouse guy when he's not in the starting lineup. If that's what's going on, I'm glad this is the last year on his deal.
[/QUOTE]
We are talking about a guy that went out of his way in Spring Training to not only go to games he wasn't scheduled to be at but to practice sitting on the bench and pinch hitting because he knew what his role was going to be in 2014. He's the ultimate teammate.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Just a small point but I don't think Kevin Millar and Carlos Pena ever played on the Red Sox together. Pena played on the 2006 Red Sox (remember the Mark Loretta thread :barf: ) and Millar was gone by then.

My mistake.

I misspelled "Roberto Petagine."

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

We are talking about a guy that went out of his way in Spring Training to not only go to games he wasn't scheduled to be at but to practice sitting on the bench and pinch hitting because he knew what his role was going to be in 2014. He's the ultimate teammate.

 
I didn't remember this. Good point. (I would have multiquoted except that the mobile app didn't show the contents of your post.)

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Today's line up:
 
Holt 1B
Bogaerts 3B
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Gomes LF
Pierzynski C
Hassan RF
Bradley Jr. CF
Herrera SS
Peavy RHP

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Cleveland:
 
Bourn CF
Cabrera SS
Brantley LF
Kipnis 2B
Chisenhall 1B
Raburn DH
Murphy RF
Gomes C
Aviles 3B
House LHP

 

[Reverend]

 
I didn't remember this. Good point. (I would have multiquoted except that the mobile app didn't show the contents of your post.)

 
Yep--And not only did he do that to practice pinch hitting (Who among vets practices pinch hitting??) he's put in a ton of wall work off the Green Monster to compensate for his deficiencies in the field. That actually translated into saving a base the other day even when he was in right field as he flashed the "fake catch" that was a classic of Yaz's and kept a guy from hussling to second because he thought it was a fly out. I wanted to see Nava get a chance, but Gomes is a total gamer.

 

[smastroyin]

OK, let's start using this thread to talk about some decisions, because I am becoming worried about our manager.  I realize that the personnel problems (injuries and ineffectiveness) are starting to add up as well and he is in a tough spot. Still, some things are starting to emerge that are disturbing.
 
Granted the bullpen worked pretty hard the previous week, but
 
Saturday RLDR gives you 7 great innings and due to the score you can use Alex Wilson to close out the game.  Basically a rest day for the bullpen.
Sunday Jon Lester pitches 7 great innings and you use Mujica and Uehara each for an inning.  Probably didn't need to use Uehara but that's fine.
Monday John Lackey gives you an 8 inning complete game.  If the Sox had tied in the ninth then probably it would have been Uehara again in the ninth (I did not see if he was warming but assume he or Taz were).
 
So Tuesday, immediately after the team comes back to tie, you let Jake Peavy allow two baserunners (and then the bunt) before going to the pen?  I realize Peavy had been relatively cruising, but he was up near 100 pitches, he hasn't had a ton of stamina this year, (small sample but his OPS allowed pitch 51-75 is .561, 76-100 is .731, 101+ is 1071).  
 
Basically the way everyone used to complain about Tito trying to steal outs clearly looks to me like it was a Farrell thing, and he is continuing to do it.  

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Completely agree, Smas. I had a sinking feeling after the first runner reached and no Farrell coming out to pull Peavy. I thought this couldn't end well.
 
Of course if Miller makes a halfway decent pitch instead of that meatball for the 2 run double then it's like no harm and no foul, but Farrell put the team into a bad situation by Gumping Peavy and he got burned.
 
Farrell is obviously a smart, impressive man, but his in-game decisions remain baffling. He has far more of these than Tito did. It's so bizarre.

 

[rembrat]

Farrell is obviously a smart, impressive man, but his in-game decisions remain baffling. He has far more of these than Tito did. It's so bizarre.

Can you prove any of this?

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Can you prove any of this?

 
I'm not sure what in SJH's post would be amenable to proof, except perhaps the assertion that Farrell has more "baffling" in-game decisions than Tito, and even there, baffling is in the eye of the beholder, innit?
 
I agree that Peavy was left in too long. At that stage in a close game he should have been on the shortest of leashes, with somebody warmed and ready. This, plus starting Gomes over Nava on Monday, makes for a head-scratching series so far. Maybe there's clubhouse stuff going on that would explain some of the weirdness, or maybe the TB mishegas is still in Farrell's head and clouding his thinking.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Can you prove any of this?

The smart, impressive part or the baffling decisions? On the first one, I think the big difference he made last year was coming in, telling the players there would be no politics or bullshit and to just go play ball. He was a forthright, decent, almost fatherly figure type of leader that all the troops got behind.They happily responded, but of course some of it was, compared with Bobby V, just about anybody would have been an improvement. As for smart, In post game interviews, he sounds OK, but his points are always pretty obvious. "Lester had all his pitches working, both sides of the plate and could use any in any count." He sounds like most other managers.
 
As for Farrell vs. Tito, I remember a lot of "Francoma" usage in 2004, until the Sox turned it around in late July.
 
For in game decision making, what manager is better, or worse? OK, gun to head, or if I had big money on games, I'd absolutely rather Bochy, Melvin, Maddon, and yes, Tito making late game moves for my team. Maybe (yuk) Showalter and Girardi also. One difference with all those guys is they have significantly more experience than Farrell. I really don't see a lot of any other managers. Well, Mattingly just doesn't appear to be that bright and I wouldn't trust him.
 
One thing, I wish Farrell made a point of guys working on bunting more in spring training. I'm not a big fan of it, but if you're going to use it, major leaguers have be able to do it. The Red Sox as a team are pathetic at it.