Schefter: Patricia to become new Lions HC

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
15,770
Michigan
That may not seem right. But as we saw with the Saints when their GM, coach and several assistants were suspended (and had no ability to appeal) the commissioner can step in where he chooses and issue punishments or order someone banned from the league. (Which would have the practical effect of firing them.)
I apologize in advance for belaboring this point, but the Saints case (and the Deflategate case, as regards coaches and staff) are completely different.

Both of those involved contemporary infractions (real or concocted by the NFL) by coaches and staff engaged in football activities, i.e. breaking football rules. And in both cases, some version of an NFL investigation was conducted. Neither of those cases involved long-past, non-football-related allegations and criminal charges that were, as in Patricia’s case, dismissed.

Maybe that doesn’t make any difference. Maybe the NFL can punish any non-player for anything they’ve ever been accused of regardless of how long ago and regardless of whatever criminal system or civil court system outcome. No skin off my nose. I don’t work for the NFL or any of its member teams. But that’d be screwy, in my opinion.

I think my position on this is clear. I’ll return to lurking unless someone mischaracterizes it or asks me a question.
 
Last edited:

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,529
If we want to get really deep here, now that we're realizing we might actually share some similar sensibilities, what's REALLY weird is how, like, not weird people think it is when the league fines coaches. Like, it doesn't even occur to anyone that that's weird.

How many people here have ever actually been fined by an employer? Not charged, but fined?

Which I think speaks to what you are saying, @dhappy42 , because, legally, why do you see the football activities as different? From a legal standpoint, it's just an operation of the business--one of many. What matters from the legal standpoint is who is subject to which legal agreement; the players are in a union and are subject to their CBA--that's the difference.

And personally, I don't think it's great. I feel like our current labor law, through a history of understating the differential obstacles to power organization, have put in place a situation where free citizens can bargain to effectively limit rights that I would argue should adhere to at least their citizenship, if not their humanity, and therefore is in de facto violation of the Constitution. Just to clarify my opinions as distinct from my empirical description of the state of the law, so as pre-emptively to avoid confusion, hopefully. :wooper:
 
Last edited:

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,217
I apologize in advance for belaboring this point, but the Saints case (and the Deflategate case, as regards coaches and staff) are completely different.

Both of those involved contemporary infractions (real or concocted by the NFL) by coaches and staff engaged in football activities, i.e. breaking football rules. And in both cases, some version of an NFL investigation was conducted. Neither of those cases involved long-past, non-football-related allegations and criminal charges that were, as in Patricia’s case, dismissed.

Maybe that doesn’t make any difference. Maybe the NFL can punish any non-player for anything they’ve ever been accused of regardless of how long ago and regardless of whatever criminal system or civil court system outcome. No skin off my nose. I don’t work for the NFL or any of its member teams. But that’d be screwy, in my opinion.

I think my position on this is clear. I’ll return to lurking unless someone mischaracterizes it or asks me a question.
With regards to the position of coaches vis-a-vis to the NFL:

The NFL bylaws put an obligation on every team employee to the follow the bylaws, and the bylaws also state that team employees are subject to discipline from the league office. This is not unique to the NFL either; this language is standard boilerplate for all of the major sports leagues. It's the quid-pro-quo, if you will, for team to be a NFL franchise. Now, I haven't read every word of the bylaws, but I'm not sure there is any restriction with regards actions that predate employment.

Even outside the NFL, franchises do often put standard clauses that subject employees of independently owned franchisees to certain covenants.

In general, it would not be a good look for the NFL to go back and punish people for actions taken 20 years in the past in which the charges were eventually dismissed. It's not a standard or customary practice with "normal" private sector employers to fire people for actions that long predate employment, unless the employee was found to have misled the employer during the interview process. I would think it would have to be a pretty serious offense (which this incident may be), along with some pretty clear and convincing evidence that the employee in question was indeed guilty, for the NFL to take any disciplinary action in such a case.

In this case, the NFL may very well do an "investigation" to see if there is any additional evidence that would implicate Patricia. For a number of reasons, I would expect finding such evidence in this 20 year old case would be highly unlikely. An indictment may be enough for us to draw conclusions about Patricia's conduct, but by itself it's not going to be enough for the league to act. About the only other recourse the NFL would have is if Patricia was explicitly asked during his interview if he had ever been arrested or indicted on a felony charge, and he denied it. In that case, both the league and the team would have clear and just cause to terminate his employment.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
I've got some thoughts on this, but been a bit tied up.

First off, I've got some personal exposure to these processes. I was on the grand jury for 2 years and I also defended cases like these, not just alleged CSC, but CSC in a resort town where neither the victim or suspects were residents of the state, let alone the county.

In regards to the alleged incident. I don't find anything credible on its face without something to corroborate it. That's not a shaded bias against the victim or defendant, but more a quest for what is likely to be proven in court. So victim says "X", what else do you have to corroborate to prove that? Same goes for defendant's, you've got an alibi, let me talk to who can place you somewhere else, and then lets hope you've got a cc receipt or something. So I don't really want to debate facts where we have zero evidence to corroborate anything, and I'm certainly not passing judgement on what may or may not be true, or taking sides. I just think its worthless to discuss credibility and what might be true.

From an indictment standpoint, the old "ham sandwich" saying was pretty much true in my experience. In our jurisdiction, we had 18 assembled, 12 votes needed to indict, and some days we only had 12 people show up. Our county didn't continue that day, we just did it with 12, which gave me immense power BTW. (Side story, Dan Dantoni, Marshall coach and brother of Mike, owes me a few years of his life, his case showed up the day we had 12 and I voted no, but that's a story for another day). Our process was simple, our county has 4-5 incorporated cities with their own government, and unincorporated areas. So each jurisdiction would send the lowest member of the staff totem pole and that cop would read the arrest warrant for every pending case. We saw the prosecutor for 5 minutes in the morning, that was it. We didn't even vote on a single case. If Myrtle Beach had 70 cases, he'd read them all, and we'd vote for all 70 at once. I didn't like that and after a few months, if something seemed shady, I'd step in and ask them to pull that one out and we'd vote on it separately, but it was still a joke for the most part. It was also like pulling teeth to get the other 17 to allow me to single out one case for discussion. Other things made it a joke, one town would send a cop that could barely read, so imagine how focused we were on facts when the guy could barely read a full sentence.

The only time we didn't follow that process is if it was some corruption case with local officials. That required state LE to investigate and when they showed up that investigator would at least give us an overview from a detailed report. It was much more involved evidence, but those were one off situations.

I would hope there are other jurisdictions doing better work, but I'd bet a bunch of them have a similar rubber stamp process. Zero evidence is presented, no witnesses, no prosecutor, just a cop reading the arrest warrant. It was a joke.

As for crimes like this where the victim and defendant's are not residents. Cases like these aren't treated with the same priority as if all parties live in that county. Shouldn't be that way, but in reality there is something to out of sight out of mind in regards to this. Much easier for a prosecutor to dispose of it in a way that gets it off her list rather than what is right. Is it possible a prosecutor looked at the evidence and flat told the victim she was in for a rough process where he/she may not have if the victim was local? Sure. If there was even one or two facts off, then a prosecutor could easily explain its a tough case to try, you're going to have to travel here 2-3 times, miss work, be available when the court schedules this, and undergo 2 different sets of attorneys picking your story apart. That they'd be glad to take it to court, but that's what your facing, etc. So in reality it could be a strong case and just didn't get the prosecutors energy it should have. Or it could have been a really bad case and she was flat out told it was a bad case. Hard to say, but her not living there clearly was a factor. I guarantee if the prosecutor had to run it by the DA before he/she moved to dismiss it, the words "the victim and defendants don't live here and will never come back" came out of his or her mouth.

As for Patricia, he came out strong in his statement. Which means one of two things. One, he knows the case better than anyone and by stating his innocence so strong he's not worried one bit about the victim coming at him with her version at this point. I know he was in a position where he had to say something, but he didn't hide behind generic soft stuff, he came out strong and I think that is unlikely if this could possibly bite him in the ass at this point. There isn't a statute of limitations, so he has to know the danger of awaking a sleeping dog. So TWO, if he did that, he's an idiot. Since I don't think he's an idiot, I'm guessing facts are on his side in this if the details ever come to light.

As for the NFL aspect, I really don't like to speculate. I was hopeful that facts and reasonable thoughts would govern past discipline situations. I'm done speculating on things that originate at that level.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,108
Newton
Good perspective on the grand jury process. I agree with you about Patricia’s statement to a point – he dodged any questions about whether he was there or whether things were consensual. Now, obviously that’s a rabbit hole and there being almost no details whatsoever available for this certainly benefits his defense. As soon as more details come out, the pressure will grow for there to be even more, at which point, more questions will arise. Maybe he was there and has to explain his behavior. Maybe he says he wasn’t and has to make some case of mistaken identity. All difficult to do two decades later. As of now, he’s clearly putting his faith in no more details being forthcoming. Whether that means he has the facts on his side or not I don’t know.
 

Spelunker

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
11,990
Another anecdotal data point on grand juries and ham sandwiches: I spent four months on one in Boston, and saw dozens of cases. The only time they asked for a vote and the jurors didn't automatically vote to indict with almost zero thought was when it was a police shooting.

But I think the strike against Patricia is that the DA asked for a vote in the first place, not that the GJ returned an indictment.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,317
Honest question though - how many indictments are then taken to trial even when the defendant doesn’t plea out?
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Honest question though - how many indictments are then taken to trial even when the defendant doesn’t plea out?
In our county (at that time) it was all of them. The grand jury was really just a rubber stamp as to what they'd put on the docket over the next month. We met once a month and if criminal court was going to be 2 weeks of the next 4, then all of these would be on the court docket for those weeks. So really, the list of cases for the GJ was really an advance list of the cases they wanted on the docket. It wasn't the other way around.

Also, in some cases what placed a case on the docket wasn't the strength or prosecutors opinion of the case, but how old it was. I used that strategy often. On a bad case, I would do all I could to delay things forever and just hope the cops had retired, took a job somewhere else, or forgot. Once a quarter the DA would have a meeting with the staff and pretty much tell them to move the old cases anyway they could. That's when I got the best deals.
 
Last edited:

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
15,770
Michigan
In our county (at that time) it was all of them. The grand jury was really just a rubber stamp as to what they'd put on the docket over the next month. We met once a month and if criminal court was going to be 2 weeks of the next 4, then all of these would be on the court docket for those weeks. So really, the list of cases for the GJ was really an advance list of the cases they wanted on the docket. It wasn't the other way around.
Sincere question for lawyers: is this fucked up or what? Seems to me that the US criminal justice system is totally broken if grand juries rubber stamp everything... except for police shootings.

Ham sandwiches and “that’s how it’s always been” notwithstanding.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,802
where I was last at
Quick legal question. As MP was indicted,I assume he was first arrested? Is this correct?

And if it is correct, is there any obligation in the standard job application to divulge that?

As I recall in most paperwork I've filled out for a new job, there was a box to check, but its been a long-time so...
 

SteveF

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
2,041
It's illegal in some states to ask about arrests that don't lead to convictions. (It's illegal in MA, for example.)

In Michigan, employers can ask about convictions for misdemeanors and arrests for felonies.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Sincere question for lawyers: is this fucked up or what? Seems to me that the US criminal justice system is totally broken if grand juries rubber stamp everything... except for police shootings.

Ham sandwiches and “that’s how it’s always been” notwithstanding.
I don’t feel like googling the history behind indictments, but if I recall, the process is in place to ensure that the power of prosecutors has a check before it gets to trial. So a dirty prosecutor couldn’t have someone arrested and tried without a grand jury determining some evidence exists tying the defendant to a crime. So if that is the case, even a rubber stamp process provides some level of value, assuming a dirty prosecutor would know that he can’t just railroad someone without other people seeing the file. But its also a numbers situation. For a busy jurisdiction, they are a ton of cases presented. And since its a secret, closed door, proceeding without a record and the defendant can’t attend or present evidence, its a process while not designed to be a rubber stamp, its not a step where much happens with the case. Getting a magistrate to sign an arrest warrant is a step that at least has some level of scrutiny.

We rarely voted no, and most of the times the cop would just flat tell us he wasn’t sure about this one. Yes, I know that is f’d up, but listening to a cop read 200 or so warrants doesn’t lend itself to undivided attention.
 

jose melendez

Earl of Acie
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2003
31,126
Geneva, Switzerland
Companies should not be allowed to ask about arrests, or even charges, except in very specific circumstances (working with kids). Some years back when I dealt with the issue in MA, the CORI system was a mess. Not only did you have employers getting access to info they weren't entitled to, but the records were often completely wrong, people getting dings from people with similar names, and so on.

Knowing nothing about this case, statistics say Patricia probably did something illegal or immoral, but the world of people facing professional consequences from untried accusations made long in the past is not a good idea.
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
15,770
Michigan
Companies should not be allowed to ask about arrests...
Wait. What? If companies can’t even*ask* about prior arrests that don’t result in convictions, under what logic can they penalize employees for past arrests that don’t result in convictions?

Knowing nothing about this case, statistics say Patricia probably did something illegal or immoral...*
Statistics say the average Bostonian has one testicle.
 

Detts

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
5,165
Greenville, SC
If I was held accountable for the shit I did in the 80s I would be living under a bridge. I think I learned from my mistakes.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,529
Sincere question for lawyers: is this fucked up or what? Seems to me that the US criminal justice system is totally broken if grand juries rubber stamp everything... except for police shootings.

Ham sandwiches and “that’s how it’s always been” notwithstanding.
This isn't even, like, an outcropping on the iceberg of fucked up that is just the problems with our legal system that we have documented, understand, and have data on. This is more, like, a cute little penguin waddling around on the iceberg--alive and well and having an ostensible function and looking good doing it, but apparently separated from what it will need to flourish.

What is it you would like to know? I mean, quite seriously, you seem to have a lot of questions but they are a bit unfocused and of the rhetorical variety. I usually have basic information and theory on most of the big issues at my fingertips and am willing and able to share--so what is it you want to know?

As for this grand jury stuff... yeah, sorta. On the other hand, it's in place to prevent things that are even more fucked up, but to really grasp that, you need to situate the grand jury within the system not as people imagine it, but as it actually operates. Noteworthy here, as per some of the other posts, is that even indictments rarely go to trial, so effects of rules and institutions need to be discounted by that lack of likelihood.

The classic example is how lots of people think the famous exclusionary rule is really hardcore. The reality is, because it's a rule of evidence, it's very soft in practice because it's weight in negotiations is discounted by the likelihood of going to trial. For example, the exclusionary rule has no effect on cops who have no intention of seeking an indictment, much less going to trial, because they just want to harass people, maybe thrown in jail until Monday, and then let them go.

So a lot of the name brand issues in the legal system get lots of attention but don't really addressed the lived experience of people going through--or working in--the legal system. Which is really critical to understand as most of the really important stuff we would be concerned with--things like structural bias within the system--is largely invisible, and even when people become aware of it, they try to "locate" the problem in the wrong places, indeed, often the places where "the system" is best able to "defend itself."
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,607
Oregon
This isn't even, like, an outcropping on the iceberg of fucked up that is just the problems with our legal system that we have documented, understand, and have data on. This is more, like, a cute little penguin waddling around on the iceberg--alive and well and having an ostensible function and looking good doing it, but apparently separated from what it will need to flourish.
 

axx

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,136
Keep in mind that the NFL doesn't really care what Patricia did or didn't do. They only care about the PR aspect.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,529
Keep in mind that the NFL doesn't really care what Patricia did or didn't do. They only care about the PR aspect.
Right. I mean, there's been lots of important talk about the women's violence issue--while the NFL is a radically useful lens for understanding the issue socially, it does not afford a very instructive view of the criminal justice system, which makes this a not great vehicle for discussing how it usually works (or doesn't).

The NFL has the authority to do fuck all, they've done fuck all to people over low levels of evidence because they felt they wanted to, so what we learn from a case like this is probably less about the problems with our justice system and more about what the NFL thinks the right move is, which has been mindblowingly instructive in the past for the most terrifying of reasons.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Honest question though - how many indictments are then taken to trial even when the defendant doesn’t plea out?
Not sure if I answered this correctly. But in our county, once you were indicted, it was going on the court docket. That didn’t mean it was going to trial, but it meant it was ripe for disposition. So once it cleared the GJ, it was eventually going to be a plea, trial, or possibly dismissed. Our DA is an elected position, so stats on these things make the rounds during election cycles. Getting something dismissed was usually happening prior to it being submitted to the GJ.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,261
Pittsburgh, PA
As for Patricia, he came out strong in his statement. Which means one of two things. One, he knows the case better than anyone and by stating his innocence so strong he's not worried one bit about the victim coming at him with her version at this point. I know he was in a position where he had to say something, but he didn't hide behind generic soft stuff, he came out strong and I think that is unlikely if this could possibly bite him in the ass at this point. There isn't a statute of limitations, so he has to know the danger of awaking a sleeping dog. So TWO, if he did that, he's an idiot. Since I don't think he's an idiot, I'm guessing facts are on his side in this if the details ever come to light.
Great post, but I'm surprised by the bolded. I have it on good authority from, uh, Law & Order, that the only crime with no SOL is murder. Has this been confirmed by some news article, or within your knowledge about Cameron County Texas?
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Great post, but I'm surprised by the bolded. I have it on good authority from, uh, Law & Order, that the only crime with no SOL is murder. Has this been confirmed by some news article, or within your knowledge about Cameron County Texas?
Just me being lazy. There is no statute of limitations in South Carolina for rape (many states have none), but in Texas its 10 years unless the victim is under 17. I believe the alleged victim was a college student, so it would have expired for MP.
 

Archer1979

shazowies
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
7,954
Right Here
I've also been on a Grand Jury and can attest to it's one-sideness. I believe that the amount of time and the number of jurors impanelled varies from jursdiction to jurisdiction, but when I served for Hampden County in MA I was one of 27 for six weeks (spread across three months). We saw literally dozens of cases a day (most were drug-related or child-rape).

The reason that the process is so one-sided is that it is the DA's office (mostly the ADA's) that schedule their cases to go in front of the Grand Jury. There is no voice for the defense and the ADA's case is the only side that gets heard. In other words, the ADA wouldn't schedule the case unless they knew that they had met the burden of proof required.

Of all the cases that we heard, only one didn't get an indictment.