Yawkey Way now Jersey St again
- Thread starter Spelunker
- Start date
No one has attempted to do this. This is about a single street name.
This is relevant how? Did Mr. Yawkey organize desegregated games in the 1800s?
Dude - the marketing concern was that racists (and racist-adjacent) wouldn't accept a black player - that they may even commit violence. Is your defense truly that it was just smart business to be racist?
And those cities should address it as they see fit. "Someone had to be last" is just about the last thing you want to hang your hat on.
Quick glance shows that 39 guys played for the '67 team. 5 were black, one was Cuban. A crisp 13.5%, but I'm sure that even one black guy on the team made your head spin and think you were seeing double (or triple in this case)
Your memory may be foggy because 3 were regular starters (George Scott, Joe Foy and Reggie Smith). What's more, they were all players who debuted in '66, showing that they had an immediate impact by being starters on a AL Champ team.
Again, the "other people were worse" is just the worst argument to make. This is a small win, this is an easy victory - in the march towards reconciling with an American past that glorified the people who kept institutional racism alive in America.
How does it truly benefit the team? Boston and New England are full of racism-apologists who'll be grumbling over glory-days (not going to accuse you of being one, but your post sure is right outta the playbook). Heaven forbid Schilling hears about this.
Collins retired after the 1947 season, so given that there had only been three Black players in the majors during the time he was the GM, all in 1947 maybe there were a few other people in MLB who were opposed to integrating the game.
Higgins took over as manager in 1955 but he did have a history with the club, playing for them in 1937-38 and again in 1946, then managing in its farm system from 1947-54.
There is ample reason to regard Higgins as racist and while it is known that Collins was against integrating the game, why this was so is a bit of a mystery as he was born in NY State and graduated Columbia University and played ball in the north.There was an unwritten understanding among owners and management that maintained Black ball players did not have the skill level required for the major leagues. Collins and Yawkey were good friends, having both attended the same school (but at different times) and Yawkey may have learned from Collins of the Red Sox being for sale.
That the Red Sox were the last team in the majors to have a black player probably has a lot more to do with the general perception of Blacks than it did with specific people. Although, those people didn't go along with change as well as people like Rickey and Veeck. In those two cases, was it open-mindedness or seen as a way to gain more talent (and more money)?
There is a recent review in the Wall Street Journal by Leigh Monteville of Bill Nowlin's book, Tom Yawkey: Patriarch of the Boston Red Sox, that some may find interesting.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/review-tom-yawkey-a-stain-on-red-sox-nation-1517608976
https://www.wsj.com/articles/review-tom-yawkey-a-stain-on-red-sox-nation-1517608976
Can you summarize key points for those of us uninterested in a WSJ subscription?
I don't have a WSJ subscription. I just typed Tom Yawkey into Google News search and the article came up. That still works this morning. I didn't realize that entering the URL required a subscription or I would not have included it.
Honestly in this social climate they may be better off not naming it after anyone.
Any “good” he did for the city was undermined by his racist values. I’m ashamed that Boston has his name on anything as that’s not what this city stands for. Good riddance. I’m just sad they copped out and want Jersey street back. Why not go the extra step and name it after an African American hero? I’m not talking about Pumpsie Green Way either...
Jersey Street would be fine if it wouldn't connote annoying MFY fans.
Maine Street/Way/Drive/Row would be better if they don't want to go with a player.
Maine Street/Way/Drive/Row would be better if they don't want to go with a player.
Isn't the obvious response: "Jersey Street? Ok, but whose jersey?"
Maybe they can have specialty signage/banners of retired number jerseys up and down the street.
Maybe they can have specialty signage/banners of retired number jerseys up and down the street.
I was thinking of something similar. Like having all the retired numbers on the street sign(s).
Hey! This Red Sox fan started rooting for the sox in NJ! New York ain't my fucking town. On the other hand, I was kind of outnumbered.
Maybe Jim Ed could "explain" to The Yawkey Foundation why they want to rename the street. He got to experience some extra racism during his playing days on the sox, courtesy of Yawkey. What was it with that whites only country club in Florida that Yawkey would give passes to his top players?
I think reverting to Jersey Street is fine. But then of course, I'm from New Jersey.
(Really there are lots of options that would be fine, and what they all have in common is that they're not Yawkey Way.)
(Really there are lots of options that would be fine, and what they all have in common is that they're not Yawkey Way.)
And it makes some sense from the city's point of view since it's already (still) Jersey Street on the other side of Boylston. Its hard enough to get around, might as well keep the ipswich-jersey-kilmarnock part of the alphabet intact.
They already have the retired numbers across Brookline Ave on David Ortiz Drive.
I dont care about the name from that standpoint. Just disappointed after all of this debate over who it could or should be named after, it just reverts back to Jersey
There was debate over what to change it to? Maybe here there was, but from what I've read, it was always about removing the Yawkey name from that section of Jersey Street, not finding a brand new name.
This is a really cool idea.
They already have that display of retired numbers along “David Ortiz Drive” next to the parking lot and Boston Beer Works, on the way from Fenway Station.
Maybe on Jersey Street they could have signage showing the evolution of the Red Sox jerseys (uniform)?
That debate is what they're trying to avoid. They don't want the issue of removing Yawkey's name bogged down by an argument about which other person should be honored instead.
I'm not sure what that had to do with Yawkey specifically. The story came out several years after his death...in fact Rice was a second year player in 1976.
Funny you should mention that.....
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2017/08/haunted_by_past_owners_history_red_sox_seek_name_change_for_yawkey_way
I’d also love for them to take the Yawkey plaque down. Why immortalize a racist on your park that is supposed to promote diversity? Also wouldn’t cry if they unretired number 4 since Cronin was also apart of this crap with Collins and Yawkey but understand that’s more taboo
Sorry for delay, I moved on to other things
First, this is not just about a street name and you know it.
Second, segregation had as much to do with white players of the day as the owners.
Third, the MacPhail report clearly expressed legitimate business concerns, some of which proved unfounded over time. Baseball was and still is a business. The 50's and 60's were a transitional period, some adjusted more quickly than others.
However, there were at least 3 other teams who signed blacks to their organization later than the Red Sox (1950) and the Tigers were last to play a black that came up from its organization, their first 2 came from trades.
Keep in mind, there was no draft. One had to get a player to sign with you, and then you had to develop them. At least one of the negro leagues were still operating. Not every signed player made it , and maybe the more talented players chose NY teams over Boston
So was Yawkey late to the party? Yes, but not overly so. In 1959 only 4 AL teams had a black who was a regular player and of the 41 black players who had played in the AL since 1949 only 5 were regulars who had played for 5 years .
As for the 67 team, of the 13 position players with 100 PA 5 were black. Thats 40%. My perception was obviously position player bias
Picking on Yawkey because its easy is low. Maybe unretire some of those players numbers and remove the pennant flags from players and teams who played in that racist past is next. Many historical street names of figures who did far worse by todays standards
Put an asterisk next to any record achieved in the preintegration era and I'll be on board. Not this though.
I'm not condoning the things he did but I don't think removing all things Yawkey is the right thing to do. Yawkey is arguably the most important man in Red Sox history and denying his role is not the way to go. In my opinion anyway.
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Never a bad time to jump back into a thread on racism.
I missed the part where the Ted Williams Tunnel was being renamed, but ok.Sampo Gida said:
No. The owners "owned" the teams. The players "played" in the games. If an owner wanted the best talent on the field, and some white players refused to play, we could have a discussion here. Racism was rampant among players, yes - but they didn't sign the players, own stadiums, etc. etc. etc.Sampo Gida said:
The MacPhail report has basically one conclusion: if more black people go to games, less white people would. You can call that a legitimate business concern, it's racist. And if it's not racist, it's facilitating others racism. You make it sound like a worthwhile experiment that just turned out to be wrong. It was pure racism.Sampo Gida said:
Always helpful to understand to whom you are speaking, and calling people "blacks" helps me here. Thanks.Sampo Gida said:
Also - as I mentioned in my previous reply to you, if you want to play the game, "Who Racist'd Harder?" sure, go ahead. But go to the Sons of Brad Ausmus to bring up another team's handling of its past.
Not sure why I'm keeping this in mind. I'm certainly keeping in mind that several years later, the players - led by an African-American player named Curt Flood - significantly changed the power dynamics of baseball.Sampo Gida said:
"A black." Cool, cool.Sampo Gida said:
And again, you're playing "well, not everyone else was good!" card and it's just a really shitty card to play. We're not talking about them. We're talking about one man, one team, during one period. We're not talking about the Foundation, or what happened in 1967. We're talking about systemic racism and our favorite team's part in it.
Never heard it called "position player bias" but I haven't run it through Urban Dictionary.Sampo Gida said:
There's not a lot of talk about the players here, and that's with many good, and some bad, reasons. But I don't see anyone saying take down numbers, or erase records and championships. And it's rather comical that you're all for slapping as asterisks on some records - but can't fathom a street name change, something that happens literally everyday in this country.Sampo Gida said:
What you are seeing is some people getting behind the removal of the name of a person who played a HUGE part in the systemic racism and Jim Crow-ing of baseball from a street that directly abuts a baseball stadium. We're not renaming Columbus, Ohio here.
This is a sage point - not all plaques need be celebratory. They are often best when they are informational, and meaning is derived by the observer.
No longer honoring his name is not the same thing as denying his role. This is basically the Confederate Statue debate all over again.
