Rebirth of a Sale, man
- Thread starter reggiecleveland
- Start date
How much does the outcome of tonight's game factor in to Sale going tomorrow? I'm not one that believes in taking your foot off the gas but I think that would be one of many variables in determining if Sale starts vs. pushing him back to give him more rest and time to recover. At that point if you lose game 5 you go to Fenway up 3-2 with Sale/Price/Eovaldi available for the two games either starting or coming in early.
The "I'm good enough" proclamation doesn't provide the utmost confidence although I guess whatever he shows in his bullpen outing today will help determine if he goes tomorrow night.
The "I'm good enough" proclamation doesn't provide the utmost confidence although I guess whatever he shows in his bullpen outing today will help determine if he goes tomorrow night.
Honestly if the Sox win tonight I'm not sure I would give him another start in the series, instead using him strategically as a reliever in one of games 5-7 if it makes sense. I'd be perfectly fine going (say) Porcello, Eddie, Price, Eovaldi the rest of the series, even if it gets to 3-3.
I think it's a significant factor. If the Sox win tonight, I think they push Sale back to a potential Game 6, with Edro going tomorrow.
If the Red Sox lose tonight, they need 2 wins in the next 3 (duh).
Eovaldi is currently set up to rotate into Game 7, if necessary.
Price for game 5 shorts him one day's rest, but I think that's why Cora pulled him early.
Sale on Saturday is 2 extra days.
If the Red Sox lose tonight, both Price and Sale will need to come up big, but one of them can still lose.
I think I'd take my shot with Price on Thursday, Sale on Saturday and Eovaldi on Sunday.
If the Red Sox win tonight, I agree that Rodriguez could be considered for Game 5, with Price (backed up by Porcello) and Sale (backed up by Eovaldi) games six and seven.
Eovaldi is currently set up to rotate into Game 7, if necessary.
Price for game 5 shorts him one day's rest, but I think that's why Cora pulled him early.
Sale on Saturday is 2 extra days.
If the Red Sox lose tonight, both Price and Sale will need to come up big, but one of them can still lose.
I think I'd take my shot with Price on Thursday, Sale on Saturday and Eovaldi on Sunday.
If the Red Sox win tonight, I agree that Rodriguez could be considered for Game 5, with Price (backed up by Porcello) and Sale (backed up by Eovaldi) games six and seven.
Price would be on short rest on Thursday, very unlikely.
I wouldn't want to let the Astros back into the series. ERod seems like a cute move that would backfire.
I wouldn't want to let the Astros back into the series. ERod seems like a cute move that would backfire.
A lot really depends on how the team interpret's Sale's last outing when his velocity was way down and location all over the place. If he really just had trouble getting loose and his arm feels fine and he's looking like vintage Sale in a side session, then I think you bump him back if that's what it will take to harness vintage Sale for a start in this series. If his arm doesn't feel right and you're genuinely worried that he's going to get back out there throwing 90 with his natural delivery and taking so much effort to go higher that his location and feel falls apart - ie, Game 1 all over again - then you should either use him as a reliever or at least not fuck up the rest of your rotation just to give him an extra day.
Ya, I have no interest in seeing E-Rod vs that lefty mashing lineup especially with the way he has been pitching. They could not have drawn two worse opponents for E-Rod to make a series difference, even situationally.
Now if they advance to the WS . . .
I can’t answer the Game 5 question without knowing more about Sale’s health. If he’s feeling strong and as if he’s got almost no after affects from the stomach thing, then I go with him up 3-1. Go for the jugular. But if he’s at all comprised, I go with ERod as he might be a better bet to win the game under those circumstances. I’d also love to know the extent to which the stomach thing factored into Sale’s performance Saturday night.
For me, I would not have a “house money” attitude if the Sox are up 3-1 and I would also not necessarily go with Sale if they are tied. To me the question in both cases is: Which guy gives them the best chance to win.
For me, I would not have a “house money” attitude if the Sox are up 3-1 and I would also not necessarily go with Sale if they are tied. To me the question in both cases is: Which guy gives them the best chance to win.
With a day off Friday, Cora could pretty much empty the pen. Rodriguez would more or less be the opener, unless, of course, he's dealing.
IMO if Sox win tonight, you don't pitch Sale tomorrow. I would give him the 2 extra days and pitch him Saturday. Now, that would mean Price on 3 days rest tomorrow or Erod. Not optimum, but going back to Boston 3-2 with Sale on longer rest and Eovaldi for game 7 with Porcello/Price in relief for either games 6/7 isn't too shabby.
With the available information we have, I wouldn't pitch Sale again period before a possible advancement to the WS. If you take the club at their word, his stomach ailment wasn't a factor in his game 1 performance, which was as much of a miracle as I've ever seen to only limit his damage to 2 runs. Taking into account a hospital stay/stomach ailment on top of that, and what sounds like his inability to do his regular side work, it just seems like a disaster.
Does a bullpen game put you in a better position to win than 2 or 4 poor innings from Sale? I think it's really close to being yes.
Disagree. Do everything in your power to step on their throats. This is the ALCS, against the toughest opponent in the majors, win or go home.
Make the optimal moves, not the "not too shabby" ones.
If they win tonight and he's ready to pitch tomorrow, you pitch him tomorrow and try to end the series 4-1. Play to win each game and worry about the next game after.
edit: If he's ready to pitch tomorrow, you pitch him regardless. Win or lose tonight.
but it might be that he could pitch tomorrow but might pitch a whole lot better with a few more days rest. Not sure how severe the stomach thing was, but an issue like that could take more time to get back to full health.
Yeah, you’ll regret that at some point. Any nsaid is going to destroy your stomach after long enough. It really doesn’t matter your build, your diet or your exercise routine.
I don’t think that’s what this is - there’s a nasty bug going around and I think as radsox said, I think he just got admitted for an IV when otherwise he’d have been going to urgent care, but stomach issues from nsaids is certainly something that effects anyone. I’m same boat as you and I can’t take an Advil on back to back days without popping black because I used to eat them like candy.
For those looking ahead with the idea of potentially saving Sale for the World Series by trying to win the ALCS behind ERod (or Price on short rest) in Game 5, consider the downside if that strategy fails. The starter in ALCS Game 5 will be on regular rest to start Game 1 of the World Series. The starter of ALCS Game 6 will be on short rest if he starts Game 2 of the World Series. So if they need to pitch Sale in Game 6 because they've lost Game 5, he might not be available to make a start in the World Series until Game 3. That doesn't seem all that great a scenario.
So unless he just physically can't perform, Sale starts tomorrow no matter what happens tonight. You play to get to the World Series as quickly as possible. You don't get cute with the rotation just because you're up and have some wiggle room.
So unless he just physically can't perform, Sale starts tomorrow no matter what happens tonight. You play to get to the World Series as quickly as possible. You don't get cute with the rotation just because you're up and have some wiggle room.
Bolded x 100000.
Perhaps the uniform stained front and rear, top and bottom, will replace the bloody sock in Sox lore.
It's not a strategy as much as a practical calculation if he would be more effective than whatever replacement would be available (Rodriguez, a bullpen game, etc.) It's just a bonus that he might be serviceable in a possible WS if he gets more rest.
Seems to me the big issue is the fact that he didn't have his bullpen session yesterday. And pitchers don't usually throw a side session the day prior to their starts; doing that to Sale could be risking injury and his future availability. So it seems to the choices are whatever maximizes the possibility of an effective Sale:
- Have him throw the bullpen today, and be available for a spot relief inning or two in Game 5. Or even potentially as an "opener". He would then be potentially available to start Games 6 or 7, depending upon what happens in Game 5.
- Scrap the side session and slot him in as the Game 5 starter.
Not sure which would be most beneficial to Sale, so I'm willing to leave that decision to the guys that see him every day in the dugout and bullpen.
In the ALCS, you only worry about Games 6 and 7 and the WS after you play Game 5.
- Have him throw the bullpen today, and be available for a spot relief inning or two in Game 5. Or even potentially as an "opener". He would then be potentially available to start Games 6 or 7, depending upon what happens in Game 5.
- Scrap the side session and slot him in as the Game 5 starter.
Not sure which would be most beneficial to Sale, so I'm willing to leave that decision to the guys that see him every day in the dugout and bullpen.
In the ALCS, you only worry about Games 6 and 7 and the WS after you play Game 5.
Rodriguez could realistically average 4 mph higher on his FB if Sale is as good as he was last start--one that lasted four innings, where he walked 4, which was before an overnight hospital stay.
Saying that out loud just doesn't sound definitive.
So we make future predictions off estimations and one game sample sizes now?
FB velocity isn't everything and we have a two careers worth of sample sizes proving Sale is the better pitcher. Given that the Astros hit LHP hard in general, yes, I'd prefer to start the superior pitcher.
Regular season? Tougher call. Now? Go with your stud with a contingency plan in place.
If this is the case, he will not be starting because he's not ready. They aren't going to risk injury, they will risk ineffectiveness.
I think anyone (athlete or not) that's had a terrible stomach bug (even bad enough to require an IV for fluids) can appreciate how long it takes to rebuild stamina. I mean, it literally knocks the shit out of you.
If he wasn't up to throwing a side session, then how does one presume he'll be OK tomorrow...particularly if you can give him 2 more days to recover.
So I agree - throwing him tomorrow and hoping he's ok, good enough to spot relieve on Saturday or Sunday per the original plan, is shortsighted. Of course, only the manager and medical staff know for sure, but I'd certainly understand giving him extra rest if that's what they decide.
There are NSAIDS that have dramatic selectivity for non-stomach (COX2) enzymes. They also have a marked increase in cardiovascular-related mortality for reasons still unknown. So people are well advised to avoid those (think Vioxx).
The bolded is the whole point. If they think he's good enough to go, he's going. If they don't, he's not. The other alternatives are: 1) they estimate he's going to get blasted and send him out there anyway; or 2) they think he'll be good enough to keep them in the game for 5, but they sit him anyway. Those aren't realistic approaches from a team that has been pretty good about how they run things.
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 44s45 seconds ago
Chris Sale won’t pitch Game 5; Game 6 at the earliest. Still feels weak from issue that put him in the hospital
Chris Sale won’t pitch Game 5; Game 6 at the earliest. Still feels weak from issue that put him in the hospital
I assume that's the most logical course of action. Makes tonight's game pretty damned big. Though I guess the good news is that if he's needed, maybe he could start game 7 and be effective.
Is it bad that I actually have to stop and think maybe I want Eovaldi starting game 7?
This whole discussion was giving me nightmarish flashbacks to the '86 "McNamara conceded Game 4 by starting Nipper!" debate, which led me to call up the box score to the game--which reminded me that Nipper pitched just fine (certainly by today's playoff standards): 3ER in 6 innings. And that Ron F-ing Darling was the opposing starter.
no, Eovaldi should start game 7 IMO. If Sale can go game 6, that would bump Price out of a start. Tonight's game is huge now. If they lose and have to go to the pen fairly early, tomorrow might be tough if Erod doesn't pitch at least 5.
@IanMBrowne: Chris Sale to start Game 6. TBD for Game 5.
@Sean_McAdam: Sale felt too weak to throw a bullpen today and won’t start Game 5. Sox undecided about Game 5 starter. Price, ERod, Kelly among possibles
Already chatter of using a reliever (like Kelly) as the "opener" then going to ERod or Price.
@Sean_McAdam: Sale felt too weak to throw a bullpen today and won’t start Game 5. Sox undecided about Game 5 starter. Price, ERod, Kelly among possibles
Already chatter of using a reliever (like Kelly) as the "opener" then going to ERod or Price.
Eovaldi has to be in the mix for 7 so maybe you do use up Price in 5. But I can't help but feel he isn't 100% to start game 6 either.
Pete AbrahamVerified account @PeteAbe 3m3 minutes ago
Alex Cora said Chris Sale starts Game 6 if necessary. He remains too weak to pitch tomorrow. Still not keeping down solid food. Sox are TBA for tomorrow. David. Price available tonight.
Pete AbrahamVerified account @PeteAbe 3m3 minutes ago
Alex Cora said Chris Sale starts Game 6 if necessary. He remains too weak to pitch tomorrow. Still not keeping down solid food. Sox are TBA for tomorrow. David. Price available tonight.
Yeah, game 6 doesn't look good either. I'm actually not terribly worried. I have a lot of faith in the rest of the team. I mean, so far, the MVP's are Eovaldi and JBJ for this series. It's more than just our ace who really wasn't 100% before this week anyway