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Rays unveil Ybor City ballpark plan

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by soxhop411, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

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    3175BD92-597F-405D-8A1C-D863DC8DE12C.jpeg 203F4273-2F91-4233-AD89-5F3FD2859162.jpeg 64282627-FDF1-45E8-83B6-17699AD39E16.jpeg C91454F7-051F-4904-B538-92B390471629.jpeg
    http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/rays-ybor-city-stadium-plan
    http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/rays/2018/07/10/rays-reveal-ybor-city-stadium-details/
    Some renderings
     
  2. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    3,784
  3. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    how would fielders be able to track flyballs against that roof
     
  4. InsideTheParker

    InsideTheParker Member SoSH Member

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    No catwalks! They would probably save them eleventy jillion dollars, tho.
     
  5. TheYaz67

    TheYaz67 Member SoSH Member

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    Is that meant to be a glass/translucent roof? If so, forget the construction costs, the annual cost of air conditioning a massive glass greenhouse in the summer in Florida is going to be the real back breaker....

    If not glass and semi-transparent, the outfielders will indeed run into the same problems that were evident in Houston back in the day....
     
  6. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Damn, roads aren't cheap in Florida
     
  7. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

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    I hope you guys are around next week when I reveal my stadium plans to house the Boston Red Sox on the moon.

    Don't know how I'm going to pay for it, but I'm open to creative funding and I'm sure it will be a fun waste of everyone's time in July.
     
  8. MakeMineMoxie

    MakeMineMoxie Member SoSH Member

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    "Creative funding" i.e. BOHICA, taxpayers!
     
  9. axx

    axx lurker

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    The Rays should just move.
     
  10. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    That's the point.
     
  11. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, this is the last, best, unworkable effort before the team moves to Montreal
     
  12. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    You misspelled Portland or Charlotte or Las Vegas
     
  13. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

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    exactly my first thought
     
  14. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Member SoSH Member

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    Melanoma Memorial Stadium seems like an appropriate name.
     
  15. koufax32

    koufax32 He'll cry if he wants to... SoSH Member

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    If the roof were tinted it could work.
     
  16. Soxfan in Fla

    Soxfan in Fla Member SoSH Member

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    Tinting takes the project to $912 billion. Had to cut something.
     
  17. OilCanShotTupac

    OilCanShotTupac Sunny von Bulow Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    That's the most un-Ybor City thing I've ever seen. Ballparks don't need to slavishly follow "old-timey" Camden Yards style (see: Petco), and sure, a moon-unit ballpark might be fun somewhere. But Ybor City is a one-of-a-kind place and this has as much sense of place as... the inside of a coffee can.

    Which I guess is very Florida - where planning goes to die.

    Just because, song lyrics:

    

I quit talking to myself
    
Listening to the radio
    
Long, long time ago
    
Damn near strangled by my appetite
    
Ybor City on a Friday night
    
Couldn't even stand up right 


    
So high the street girls wouldn't take my pay
    
They said come see me on a better day
    
She just danced away


    -Jason Isbell, SoSH favorite
     
  18. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Why does a ballpark in Florida need a roof?
     
  19. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    Heat
     
  20. axx

    axx lurker

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    6,000
    I would say more rain and thunderstorms but heat too.
     
  21. ernieshore

    ernieshore Member SoSH Member

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    That's exactly what I thought. I've only been to Ybor City once, but I had to double-check to make sure they are talking about the same place I have been. That doesn't seem like a "neighborhood park" to me (concrete skyways, some big setbacks, separation from other uses, etc).
     
  22. koufax32

    koufax32 He'll cry if he wants to... SoSH Member

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    I’ve been visiting here for a week and a half. There are two afternoons it hasn’t rained.
     
  23. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    How does Miami manage? Is it a gulf thing?
     
  24. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    With a retractable roof.
     
  25. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    Miami has a roof too.
     
  26. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Oh that stadium has a roof too (surprisingly I don’t watch a lot of Marlins ball)? Looks like the old stadium only got one in 2006?
     
  27. RGREELEY33

    RGREELEY33 Potty Mouth Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I’m comfortable taking the wager that the only expenditure on that ballpark will be the $40k or whatever was paid for the architect to draw it up. That stadium ain’t happening there.
     
  28. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    I've also only been to Ybor City once, but a Camden Yards knock-off would be considerably more Ybor City than this building. At least it would get the basics right, lots of brick in tribute to turn-of-the-century brick warehouses.

    This stadium seems like a joke. $892 million for a stadium with 28,000 seats? That's a ripoff. You could probably build a perfectly functional ballpark with a roof for half that money.

    And I know baseball is probably slowly fading in popularity but I call bullshit on 28,000 being an acceptable number of seats for an MLB park (there's 2,500 SROs, hence their claiming a capacity of over 30,000). To me, that's just a giveaway that Tampa is the weakest market in baseball and the Rays should probably move somewhere else.
     
  29. VORP Speed

    VORP Speed Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Why is 28,000 an unacceptable size for a ballpark? 12 teams are averaging over 30,000 in attendance this year (and a couple of those just barely). What is the incremental value of a few thousand more cheap seats vs the decreased scarcity value if tickets are always readily available? What drives an MLB team’s revenue in 2018 and going forward?

    A ballpark is a glorified television studio. A team is interested in selling premium seating and creating a tough ticket perception that drives overall interest and TV ratings. Baseball stadiums are too big across the board. Look at the percentage of capacity numbers for this year. Boston has a historically great team and one of the smaller parks in the league and they can’t consistently sell out. There is no good reason why an MLB team should be playing in a venue twice the size of the NBA/NHL with twice as many games per year. The Lightning sell out every game at 19k, if the Rays did the same in a small stadium, they’d be in great shape. The trend in new ballpark sizes has been consistently downward and it probably should have been even more aggressively so. 28,000 is an incremental move beyond the low 30’s that has been the recent trend, but, if I were Stu Sternberg, I’d have gone even smaller.
     
    #29 VORP Speed, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  30. Infield Infidel

    Infield Infidel teaching korea american SoSH Member

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    $240 million for a roof that doesn't even open, that doesn't make much sense. I recall them saying previously that they wanted to stay in the $600-650m range and a fixed roof would keep costs more manageable. As a former Tampa resident it's frustrating because I'd like the Rays to move to Tampa and stay in the region but this isn't the plan to do it.
     
  31. The Allented Mr Ripley

    The Allented Mr Ripley holden Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    11,363
    What old stadium? Hard Rock Stadium, home of the Dolphins, where the Marlins used to play (it was called Sun Life Stadium when they left 2012)? That has an open-air canopy that covers the seats, it was constructed in 2015, well after the Marlins moved out.
     
  32. VORP Speed

    VORP Speed Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    You don’t open a negotiation with your minimally acceptable, most value-engineered proposal. You put something out there that is aspirational and try to put pressure on the local governments to pony up. If they somehow do manage to get this funded, there will be a lot of tough discussions around financing and a more cost-effective proposal will almost certainly emerge. That translucent roof is super sexy, but you probably end up with some sort of modern mini-dome that just has better lighting.
     
  33. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    17,773
    Because if your market actually has fans, you'll comfortably do better than 28,000 on a night to night basis. There's only so much revenue you can squeeze out of a fanbase that is starting at a half million per year disadvantage to the other teams in the division if and when you're contending. Furthermore, is there any sign that having a bandbox drives TV ratings? The Indians struggle attendance-wise, but get the best TV ratings in baseball. The Rays tarp over a bunch of the Trop right now, to the point they only make 31,000 tickets available, and still no one goes to their games.

    I agree Tampa shouldn't be building a 50,000 seat stadium, but that they think a little better than half that is appropriate is a sign they aren't really a major league market. The Athletics are looking for something between 34-37,000, and that's a fanbase that is permanently doomed to live within the shadow of the Giants. SunTrust Park in Atlanta has 42,000 seats - a downgrade on Turner, but still enough (and they're starting to fill it, or most of it on a nightly basis now that the team is good).

    Furthermore, the richer teams are ahead of the curve on this (perhaps because gate receipts aren't shared revenue). The Red Sox, Cubs, Giants and Yankees all clear over 40% of their revenue from ticket sales. The Dodgers are about the same in raw dollars as those four. The TV bubble won't last forever. It's going to be impossible for the Rays to clear that percentage of revenue with a Triple-A sized park.

    I'd also question whether making it extremely expensive for families to attend games is actually going to help the Rays build a fanbase. I don't think you create baseball fans solely via the medium of television like you do for football or basketball.
     
  34. finnVT

    finnVT Member SoSH Member

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    1,757
    Yeah, but even if you want to average 25k, you probably need a 40k+ capacity. You need to max out attendance in those Yankee/Red Sox/etc games to make up for those mid-week games against Oakland. If you can only squeeze in 28k on the good nights, you're going to have a hard to keeping your average anywhere near competitive.

    Granted this is pretty moot for Tampa right now anyway, since they maxed out ~31k last year as is, but presumably you'd at least want to allow for the possibility that people will care again some day. Unless you've given up on that and are just planning to move the team anyway (which is, of course, the most likely explanation).
     
  35. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    This is an excellent point, your market clearly cares more about ACELA line teams than the rest of the majors.
     
  36. Soxfan in Fla

    Soxfan in Fla Member SoSH Member

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    35-38k seating seems like the optimal range. 28k for that price is absurd.
     
  37. Flunky

    Flunky Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    1,580
    I think its a cool location, kind of links Ybor and downtown...

    but the design should be more old-timey.
     
  38. VORP Speed

    VORP Speed Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Gate receipts as a percentage of revenue league wide has fallen over the last decade from an average of 38% to 29%. By my rough calculation, the Rays are currently at 12-15%. Their attendance sucks but they get very good TV ratings and recently signed a $1B+ 15 year extension of their TV deal. So the gate receipts will only become a smaller percentage going forward. A few thousand extra of the cheapest seats (current avg ticket price is $20) will have no impact whatsoever on their ability to be competitive, even if they were always filled. The way you keep a stadium filled is not be having excess capacity, it’s by having excess demand. You don’t want those Sox and Yankees tix to always be easily available and cheap on a one-off basis. You want to drive higher season ticket sales and sell multigame packages around the best games and have those season ticket buyers feel confident they can always offload tickets on the secondary market. The virtuous cycle the Sox had up until recently in their very small park.

    Tampa is never going to be a big time market, the buying power and especially the corporate money just isn’t there. It can be a very solid mid-market franchise with a new stadium, though—even at 28k. The one thing that is never in doubt with this ownership group is whether they have properly done their homework or are employing adequately rigorous quantitative analysis.
     
  39. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    5,357
    Oops, I missed the line in Wikipedia that said the 2nd/3rd renovation phases happened after they left. So that means they played for almost 20 years without a roof, which is exactly why I brought them up.
     
  40. Infield Infidel

    Infield Infidel teaching korea american SoSH Member

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    Starting with a fixed roof isn't aspirational. They should have started with a retractable roof and went away if necessary. The sticker shock for me is the price without a retractable roof. Marlins Park was built for $676m in 2017 dollars and has a roof the opens. $200m above that, with less seating and a fixed roof and fake grass, might just be straight out rejected by locals.
     
    #40 Infield Infidel, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  41. brs3

    brs3 sings praises of pinstripes SoSH Member

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    4,521
    The top two renderings remind me of the Marlins ballpark. The fancy roof and missing fishing monument seem like the only differences.
     
  42. LoweTek

    LoweTek Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I think a big reason TBR fails to draw is the current location in St. Pete and I believe Ybor improves this only marginally. Ybor is really just immediate North Downtown. A good portion of the local area population is both East and North of the Ybor/Downtown area. Getting from the East or North Tampa side over to what is Southwest St. Pete, is a slow and traffic choked proposition at 6:00-6:30 in the afternoon/evening as it would be to Ybor. The current location also takes Orlando almost completely out of the equation. It's usually 2.5 hours in traffic from all but the Southwestern-most parts of Orlando. Getting out of the Trop is no picnic either. Ybor improves their Orlando proximity only slightly.

    I think they should put it even further East than Ybor. Closer to 75 & I-4 or even East of 75 where it gets very rural very quickly. There is a huge swath of land at the Southwest corner of 75 & I-4 where the State Fairgrounds sit unused most of the year. I am sure a co-existence could work out there. Less new infrastructure required is a big bonus. Being right at the 75 & I-4 junction gives them much easier access to a bunch of population located in the I-75 corridor as well as to Orlando.

    I had a half-season ticket package for the Lightning's inaugural season when they temporarily played in a converted building at the fairgrounds. It took me 90 minutes or less to get there from my offices well North of Orlando. People will make that drive with far less trepidation than Southwest St. Pete or even Ybor.

    A big part of the Rays problem is unlike both the Lightning and Bucs, they have near zero draw from Orlando. They are hardly even mentioned in the local paper beyond the box scores and are treated pretty much like every other MLB team. Most Orlando local TV news is doing a sports segment again and TBR is rarely mentioned. They could use some marketing effort in the Orlando market too. It's been a huge mistake avoiding it, IMO. As soon as the Braves leave the Disney ballpark, TBR should move their Spring Training there immediately for the same reason. A few hours on a Spring Training bus has got to be worth the Orlando exposure they would get as a result.
     
  43. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Well, hold steady Ybor City
    You're up to your neck in the sweat and wet confetti
    If you want to get a little bit light in the heady
    It's gonna have to get a little bit heavy
     
  44. Toe Nash

    Toe Nash Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe the price tag is going towards a new subway line since I don't see any parking lots or facilities in the renderings.

    Also, why on Earth would you have table-style seating 4 rows back from home plate? Let's take the best real estate in the park and put about half as many paying customers there as we could by just having regular seating there. I know the renderings will never get built but their weird idiosyncrasies always amuse me.
     
  45. Infield Infidel

    Infield Infidel teaching korea american SoSH Member

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    Parking is one of the few things they don't need to worry about. There are two large parking garages in Ybor, and a number of smaller lots. On the other side of the expressway near the cruise dock there are a bunch more parking lots and small garages. And then further south at Channelside Mall there's another parking garage, and a huge one further south at the Convention Center/Amelie Arena, both of which are 3-4 stops away on the streetcar. The city supposedly plans to extend the streetcar northward but we'll see if that happens.

    I had hoped they would build in downtown proper in the current location of the Conagra mill and its surrounding lots, since the mill is an eyesore downtown; it was on the list of considered location.
     
  46. Infield Infidel

    Infield Infidel teaching korea american SoSH Member

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    The problems with east of 75 is there's absolute no foot traffic over there, and the current fans in St. Pete won't go beyond Ybor, and they want to keep as many St. Pete fans as possible. A lot of them already work in downtown Tampa so they won't have to get in a car.

    I've also thought the Rays should go to Orlando for spring training. The current lease in Port Charlotte ends in 2029 though, I'm sure they could break it if they wanted to move.
     
  47. Comeback Kid

    Comeback Kid Member SoSH Member

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    This would be great with the Braves leaving Orlando after 2019, but my impression is that the Grapefruit League has been making a coordinated effort to move the northernmost teams south to cut down on overall travel time.
     
  48. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

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    15,159
    Rays are having a press conference right now, nothing is close and the three-year window for Rays exploring a park in TB is closing.
     
  49. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    57,532
    And our long, national PTSD flashback is over
     
  50. VORP Speed

    VORP Speed Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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