PawSox now looking at sites in Pawtucket

Brohamer of the Gods

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Eh, the final numbers of the deal to buy the Paw Sox aren't public yet but the last valuation I saw from Forbes had them worth $19 million. The real reason for multiple owners is the money needed to build the new stadium and/or local development connections. If the other owners back out, having Red Sox ownership come up with another say $10-20 million to buy the rest of the club isn't a big deal. Now when the current Red Sox owners eventually sell out, it will be interesting to see if they will include the minor league holdings.
 

smastroyin

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I don't think the wall thing really matters value wise.  I do think it is kind of lame to do in Pawtucket/Providence.  The attractiveness of the mini-Monster in Greenville is that people can't easily get to the real Monster in Boston.
 
Hopefully they will do something that incorporates the features of the site rather than conform to some preconceived notion of what a "Red Sox" minor league park has to look like.
 

RIFan

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The Apex site could definitely work. There's decent parking with the municipal lot nearby, but the garage would still be needed. I think the biggest problem would be they would have to rework the 95 access ramps. They can't handle any level of game day traffic without completely backing up the highway. I think most people familiar with the area would try to access from 146, but that is still a major pain.
 

smastroyin

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I haven't posted in a while, but I also saw this. I do think it is perfect development wise and for the city (which I happen to live in).

Mostly, it helps revitalize that area without completely suburbanizing it (as I've noted before, the current owners were trying to court Wal-Mart and Target). There are also proposals to in-fill along division St. (other side of the highway) which would benefit from more local traffic. As well, you could look at a pedestrian bridge to link up with Pleasant St. or George St. to connect to the hotel up there. That's probably too much for Pawtucket's budget, but would be pretty big in terms of access and distributing car traffic. Another too rich for blood item might be to have some of the ziggaraut design integrated to the new ballpark.

Secondly, the McCoy site would be a great place for a unified new high school, which has been on the city agenda forever.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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Didn't see this so I started another thread. My office is now at Slater Mill so this is fine by me. Would definitely need an additional parking garage, but the sites just north and east of Apex will probably be part of the deal.

Traffic already backs up at Exit 28 on game nights. Getting there from 146 officially sucks, to the point that Google usually sends you south to Providence on 95 to pick up 146 if you are looking to go from Pawtucket to Woonsocket. (I know, why would you want to?)

I what may well be the most Rhode Island moment of my life, I was given a broad hint about this Sunday night at my father's wake. Someone from the Paw Sox mentioned to me that they were interested in a riverfront site in Pawtucket. I guessed APEX because nothing else made sense.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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JimD

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If I'm looking at the map right, the Taft St. site appears to abut a mostly residential neighborhood with two schools. Road access in particular looks horrible. Might as well just rebuild McCoy.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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That would be it - though it is within walking distance of the Modern Diner. And has a water view. Imagine the kayaks out in Mondor Cove!

I found this which shows National Grid's remediation plans for the site and answers all of your questions on what a manufactured gas plant did.

http://www.tidewatersite.com/
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Love love love Modern Diner. I'd rather see the park in the wasteland on the other side of the river there, alongside Water Street, if there's enough room. Or build it along Taft, but put parking across the river, with a walking bridge and a ferry to get folks across.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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Love love love Modern Diner. I'd rather see the park in the wasteland on the other side of the river there, alongside Water Street, if there's enough room. Or build it along Taft, but put parking across the river, with a walking bridge and a ferry to get folks across.
The one image from the Pro Jo does show a pedestrian bridge across the river.
 

smastroyin

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I prefer the apex site by far but the tidewater site I'm guessing they would get help from brown fields grants. I was also under the impression that ngrid needed infrastructure there which is why nothing has been done before.

And yes the infrastructure would be a disaster unless it was set up to park on the east side of the river and walk over which might actually be cool.

Also I changed the title of the thread.
 

steveluck7

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Just not sure the abutters are going to be happy with a ballpark in such a residential area.
If this whole fiasco has taught me one thing is that Pawtucket (and RI) residents will not be happy with ANY solution. They want McCoy to remain where it is and as it is. It's where they have "all their childhood memories." They'll threaten a boycott if a new stadium is announced. Attendance numbers would indicate that the boycott began somewhere around 2005
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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Well there was the Apex in Warwick too. But yeah, I can see the Apex sign high atop the ziggurat of values looking out my Pawtucket window.

I just drove down Taft Street to look at the site. It is just as lovely live as in the pictures. As far as I know that substation is still active, but it seems that it is just south of the property in question.
 

yeahlunchbox

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If this whole fiasco has taught me one thing is that Pawtucket (and RI) residents will not be happy with ANY solution. They want McCoy to remain where it is and as it is. It's where they have "all their childhood memories." They'll threaten a boycott if a new stadium is announced. Attendance numbers would indicate that the boycott began somewhere around 2005
Let's see what the reaction is if and when the PawSox actually propose something reasonable. The Providence proposal was an insult, partly because of where they wanted to put it and the logistical nightmare it would be trying to get to the park on weeknights but mostly because of how terrible the financial details were.
 

moondog80

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Let's see what the reaction is if and when the PawSox actually propose something reasonable. The Providence proposal was an insult, partly because of where they wanted to put it and the logistical nightmare it would be trying to get to the park on weeknights but mostly because of how terrible the financial details were.
I didn't like the Providence deal either but I've had the same experience as steveluck. I've talked to Pawtucket people who haven't been to game in 20 years acting like their hearts would be ripped out out if the team moved.
 

moondog80

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Apparently it is, unbeknownst to me.

No worries. If you've driven by it on 95, that's pretty much downtown Pawtucket. Not that you or anyone else would have any reason to know where downtown Pawtucket is, it's been a ghosttown forever. Which is one reason why I love the idea of the stadium there.
 

yeahlunchbox

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I didn't like the Providence deal either but I've had the same experience as steveluck. I've talked to Pawtucket people who haven't been to game in 20 years acting like their hearts would be ripped out out if the team moved.
There will always be people that resist change and there will always be people that don't want something big in their backyard, that's not a uniquely Rhode Island thing either.

It's up to the PawSox to propose a project and deal that reasonable people can rally behind.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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No worries. If you've driven by it on 95, that's pretty much downtown Pawtucket. Not that you or anyone else would have any reason to know where downtown Pawtucket is, it's been a ghosttown forever. Which is one reason why I love the idea of the stadium there.
News to me. All I knew about Pawtucket was the stadium, Modern, the sports bar near Modern, and the 2 (two!) quality theater groups in the town.
 

Leon Trotsky

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If this whole fiasco has taught me one thing is that Pawtucket (and RI) residents will not be happy with ANY solution. They want McCoy to remain where it is and as it is. It's where they have "all their childhood memories." They'll threaten a boycott if a new stadium is announced. Attendance numbers would indicate that the boycott began somewhere around 2005
I think everyone would be ecstatic with the Apex site. Problem is, the current owners are too ecstatic, as they are asking for an astronomically above market amount for the land. The Tidewater site is nice because the City already owns part of it and National Grid would be thrilled to finish off their remediation and be done with it. But it does have some logistical issues. The nice thing now is that there are three very viable sites IN Pawtucket to get this done.
 

StMic

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The owner of the Apex property is a nightmare to deal with. I believe the properties are on the tax rolls for about 4.5 mil and he is asking for $20 mil. Someone I spoke to about it who is well connected in the city mentioned the possibility of the state getting involved and using eminent domain. Not sure of the legality of that option.
 

trs

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No worries. If you've driven by it on 95, that's pretty much downtown Pawtucket. Not that you or anyone else would have any reason to know where downtown Pawtucket is, it's been a ghosttown forever. Which is one reason why I love the idea of the stadium there.
Wow, I know this isn't really on topic, but just looking at Google Maps of Pawtucket just shows how incredibly brutal and short-sighted mid 20th century urban renewal projects were. You couldn't cause more disruption to a population center if you wanted to with the placement of I-95. Here I thought Route 91 through Springfield was bad...
 

moretsyndrome

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While McCoy still stands: Oil Can is going to be there Saturday morning! Little moret and I are all over that.

https://www.milb.com/pawsox/news/pawsox-to-host-free-open-house-rescheduled-for-saturday-april-8/c-221554192/t-196097300

We go to as many Sunday games as we can. He runs around on the grass and I have a couple of 'Gansetts and it's practically heaven. If they left, the only person more devastated than me would be my wife, pining for the break she gets 10-12 times a year.

Hopefully, they can figure out something. There's no perfect place to put a stadium in the city, but something reasonable can be worked out, I think.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Worcester a possibility if Rhode Island doesn't come thru with help towards a new park

Pawtucket Mayor Donald Grebien has said he would like to know what will happen by the end of this year. PawSox general manager Dan Rea has said he thinks Grebien’s position is a fair one. PawSox owner Larry Lucchino said Monday that the team has a very strong preference to remain in Pawtucket, but wants his team to play in a publicly owned stadium.

At first glance for the fans of Worcester, those who have held out hope that the Pawtucket Red Sox will wind up there, Lucchino’s words might have seemed like a door closing when in fact those squeaky hinges might mean just the opposite.
 

moondog80

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Providence metro area population: 1,604,291
Worcester: 923,672
Springfield: 698,903

If they leave RI, it will be because the difference in public money is astronomical.
 

Puffy

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Paw Sox planning replica Fenway in Pawtucket, including sketches of how that works on the Apex and Tidewater sites.

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/20170405/pawsox-planning-100-percent-replica-of-fenway-including-green-monster
Nice sketches to give a sense of scale and orientation. Maybe it is obvious, but it's worth emphasizing that these are replica field dimensions, rather than replica stadiums. The headline seems to have misled people, based on the comments at the bottom of the article. I do like how both renderings show that they are thinking about grassy areas in the outfield, similar to McCoy.
 

allstonite

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Nice sketches to give a sense of scale and orientation. Maybe it is obvious, but it's worth emphasizing that these are replica field dimensions, rather than replica stadiums. The headline seems to have misled people, based on the comments at the bottom of the article. I do like how both renderings show that they are thinking about grassy areas in the outfield, similar to McCoy.
It's a bad headline. The headline says "'100 percent' Replica of Fenway" although the first line of the article includes "field dimensions."
 

section15

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re Worcester and Springfield = bargaining chips for the PawSox.

Any entity looking to socialize the risk/privatize the profits, looking for public money, etc., needs a bargaining chip, a card to play or bluff with. They're trying to get one with those two towns. Who have both said "we'll welcome you, we'll do what we can to get you here if you're serious, but we don't have the dough to build a new park for you."

Surprised they haven't approached Lowell, Nashua, or even Manchester NH - where there's a double-A park which is upgradable.

But they attempted to put together a financially improbable deal in Providence AFTER pretty much dissing Pawtucket. And now they're stuck in Pawtucket. New ballpark at Apex vs. New ballpark at National Grid vs. rebuild McCoy.

There are your options, gentlemen - remembering that their Providence bluff was called and it was a pair of threes.
 

smastroyin

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I don't think they are going to get a bunch of State money. It's not like RI has giant budget surpluses and no problems. I'm sure Lucchino knows already that Massachusetts isn't eager to fund a stadium either.

Ultimately I think you will see some basic updates to McCoy and not much more, if these owners don't want to pony up a substantial portion of the stadium cost.

As for the concept, I think the Apex one should be reversed to allow an outfield promenade along the river. Having I-95 and its ramps, plus I guess the parking garage as the backdrop for the outfield is straight out of "we don't give a fuckism" design class with a side dash of "hey you're in the shitty parts of New Jersey." Which fine, it's Pawtucket, but let's strive for a little more. As well, I'm not sure I like having the pedestrian flow focused in a trapped corner. Maybe they would have walkways over to division St., etc., but that concept doesn't really say "hey before/after the game go check out some of Pawtucket itself." Also, I'd think there would be someway to incorporate the ziggurat. I realize it is just a concept. But if they were asking me for public money I'd walk out of the room with that render.

The Taft St. one is fine, but again, your vista is over the parking lot. Probably not another way to do it, but it's clearly an inferior site if they want parking on it as well. Getting people in and out of that lot will be pretty ridiculous.
 
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Brohamer of the Gods

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The drawing of the APEX site also includes three new buildings across the street- where the Apex tire center is now, where the Greek Church was before it burned down, and George's Games/the old Sawyer School. I presume those are parking, but maybe retail and restaurants on the ground floor too? Maybe that would be what they are driving pedestrians to.
 

RIFan

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The Apex site is infinitely better than the the Tidewater site. The combination of better parking options across the river, Slater Mill vista, and the easy walking distance to the Narragansett brewery and other downtown development are all big pluses. The neighborhood abutting Tidewater will be a major problem. In addition to the ballgames, they will undoubtedly be looking to book the stadium for concerts and other events as much as possible. It's the only way it will make sense.

I'm also surprised on the park orientation. I would think a promenade by river where homerun balls could be chased down, as well as the spectacle of someone launching one into the river would be a nice feature.
 

RIFan

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Good point. The proposed orientation is dead north. Orientating towards the river would make left field a bear. I guess if they wanted to really make a Fenway replica they could swing it more to the east and make sure the right fielder gets used to sun glare.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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A riverside promenade would be nice, but the last step is a doozy. Keep in mind, the Apex parking lot is even higher up, quite a hill coming up from the bridge. Can't see them in this pic, but there are still some arches in the bottom of the retaining wall where the tail races for the mills that used to be here emptied back into the river.
 

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smastroyin

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It's a good point but not an overwhelming concern. Please understand that I'm not speaking just from looking at a render, I am exceptionally well familiar with both of these sites. The render isn't facing due North, it's facing NE, the same basic direction as Fenway, which I'm sure isn't unintentional. But yes, opposite the direction of the setting sun, but it's not necessary to be completely opposite. My preferred orientation would turn the stadium 60 degrees or so, facing NNW, which is essentially the same as McCoy. Take a look at the satellite image, imagine homeplate drawing a line through dead center up to the Slater Mill. So yes, you will have some similar sun issues as McCoy now. So the first base side fans have to deal with some sun the way they do now, during the month around the solstice. Maybe they've identified that as a big customer complaint and if so fine.

Brohammer you have to shore up the edge of the river no matter what you do with the site, even just put parking on it. By Riverside I'm not talking the same height as the river, though you could probably do something like they did across the street under the 95 Bridge, too.

I also hate hate hate the idea of replica Fenway. Real Fenway is 45 minutes away, this isn't Greenville. I mean, maybe kids would love it that way, I don't know. But it feels pretty gimmick-y.
 

smastroyin

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PS just to be clear while I'll still have opinions they can build whatever the hell they want if they pay for it. Buy if they want public cash I feel there should be public benefit.