Patriots release G Jon Cooper because he didn't cheat enough

j44thor

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This was fait accompli the moment the trade happened. They would have had to guarantee way too much $$ to keep him. Probably part of the reason they went OL heavy again in the draft. If Cooper is good he probably gets overpaid somewhere else next year. If he struggles they don't bring him back either way.
About the only way I can see them resigning him is if he is just good enough to not warrant a big contract.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'm confused. If they knew they would have to do this anyway, why did they get him in the trade?
 

E5 Yaz

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Because they were also receiving a 2nd rounder and because the guy they were giving up was only going to play 1 more year for the Pats as well.
Yeah, I remember the trade. I'm not that fucking old.

My question was more along the lines of, why not just ask for a 7th in addition to the 2nd. Why get a player in return that you could wind up losing?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I don't think there was ever a chance of them paying a guard almost $12M when they have the defensive guys to resign for next year. They have him on a reasonable cap hit this year and if he's looking healthy and good after some time with Dante they can broach an extension at a reasonable figure. The highest paid guard right now is Osemele, who was at least somewhat knowingly overpaid because the Raiders had to meet the salary floor and he still would count less than Cooper. The next two guys on the list check in at $8M. End of day they get one year out of him to see if he has what got him drafted so high.
 

shoosh77

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Yeah, I remember the trade. I'm not that fucking old.

My question was more along the lines of, why not just ask for a 7th in addition to the 2nd. Why get a player in return that you could wind up losing?
If he sucks, he's expensive but there aren't a ton of 7th rounders that have the upside.

If he's great, they either resign him or he leaves and they get a comp pick that will be tradeable under new rules.

If he's just good, he gets his superbowl ring and we see what happens next.
 

E5 Yaz

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If he sucks, he's expensive but there aren't a ton of 7th rounders that have the upside.

If he's great, they either resign him or he leaves and they get a comp pick that will be tradeable under new rules.

If he's just good, he gets his superbowl ring and we see what happens next.
Okay, now I realize how stupid I was being. I thought the fifth-year option was for this coming season, not 2017.

Carry on, I have to get in line for Cream O'Wheat
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Okay, now I realize how stupid I was being. I thought the fifth-year option was for this coming season, not 2017.

Carry on, I have to get in line for Cream O'Wheat
Don't feel bad E5, I only figured this out by counting on my fingers up from his draft year 2013.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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It's worth considering that Cooper (and his sizable-ish salary) was added to the trade at the insistence of ARIZONA, not as a sweetener for N.E.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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It's worth considering that Cooper (and his sizable-ish salary) was added to the trade at the insistence of ARIZONA, not as a sweetener for N.E.
Do you have a quote or reference for this?

Because it makes no sense - the nfl isn't like MLB - you can't trade guys to get salary relief. When you trade someone with remaining bonus, you still have to pay it. There's not really any difference between trading a guy and cutting him.
 

BigJimEd

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Do you have a quote or reference for this?

Because it makes no sense - the nfl isn't like MLB - you can't trade guys to get salary relief. When you trade someone with remaining bonus, you still have to pay it. There's not really any difference between trading a guy and cutting him.
Normally true but I think in this case much of Cooper's money is guaranteed as a top first round pick.
Thus Cards did save money both in real and cap dollars.
Still, I had not heard that AZ insisted on putting him in the deal.
 

Shelterdog

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Do you have a quote or reference for this?

Because it makes no sense - the nfl isn't like MLB - you can't trade guys to get salary relief. When you trade someone with remaining bonus, you still have to pay it. There's not really any difference between trading a guy and cutting him.
Actually tough guy what you're saying makes no sense.Cooper has a guaranteed salary so there is a huge difference between trading him and cutting him; if you trade him the new team (the Pats) are responsible for his salar but if you cut him you're on the hook.

I assume the pats factored in the possibility that he'd be suck and they'd just have to take a 2 millionish hit as part of the price of the Jones deal.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Keep in mind the deal cleared over $5M in cap space for the Pats and you have to consider the signing of Chris Long in the big picture. Overall, we were about $2.5M in cap space after we signed Long.

So we lose Jones for 1 year. Get 1 year of Cooper & Long, a 2017 2nd, and 2.5m in cap space for 2016.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Actually tough guy what you're saying makes no sense.Cooper has a guaranteed salary so there is a huge difference between trading him and cutting him; if you trade him the new team (the Pats) are responsible for his salar but if you cut him you're on the hook.

I assume the pats factored in the possibility that he'd be suck and they'd just have to take a 2 millionish hit as part of the price of the Jones deal.
Cooper has a 675K salary and a 1.7M roster bonus - which is guaranteed. He gets his money either way.

His contract has offset language though - basically if he gets cut, and someone else signs him, they get a cap credit - so the only way the Cardinals end up on the hook for that money is if he's out of football, or takes a deal worth basically minsal. The chances of a backup level guard who is still young and might still have some potential getting less than 2.3M is pretty low. The Cardinals really didn't gain much trading him vs cutting him.
 

Pandemonium67

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So we lose Jones for 1 year. Get 1 year of Cooper & Long, a 2017 2nd, and 2.5m in cap space for 2016.
The deal is slightly offset by the comp pick they would've gotten had they tendered an offer to Jones. Adding Long is what makes this a great deal for the Pats. Really, a BB coup.
 

j44thor

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The deal is slightly offset by the comp pick they would've gotten had they tendered an offer to Jones. Adding Long is what makes this a great deal for the Pats. Really, a BB coup.
They didn't get Long because of the trade and I'd be careful of what you wish for. I'd love to take odds on Chris Long finishing the season on the 53. Seems like Adrian Wilson/Torry Holt v2. Getting a once great player on the 18th hole never mind the back nine.

If they can get a good year out of Cooper and a 5th or 6th rd comp pick for him on top of the 2nd then I'm not sure what else you could expect for 1yr of Chandler Jones.
 
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I could be wrong but I'm not sure it's fair to compare Chris Long - even with a nod to the last couple of injury-riddled seasons - to Adrian Wilson or Torry Holt. It seems like he's at an age and stage of career that's not quite so hanging-by-a-thread-ish, no?
 

Shelterdog

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I could be wrong but I'm not sure it's fair to compare Chris Long - even with a nod to the last couple of injury-riddled seasons - to Adrian Wilson or Torry Holt. It seems like he's at an age and stage of career that's not quite so hanging-by-a-thread-ish, no?
A lot of those types were considerably old than Long. Chris Long will be 31; he played well at 28, was injured at age 29, and was sort of injured and not effective at 30.
Holt was 34 for the pats. He'd been pretty good at 32 and 33.
Adrian Wilson was 33 for the pats--he'd played a lot (although apparently not particularly effectively) at age 31 and 32.
Galloway was 38 so I don't think he's a fair comp. Jon Lynch was 37.

I think the comps you're hoping for are Carter/Anderson from 2011--they were 32 and 28 but coming off of some bad seasons.
 

RedOctober3829

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A lot of those types were considerably old than Long. Chris Long will be 31; he played well at 28, was injured at age 29, and was sort of injured and not effective at 30.
Holt was 34 for the pats. He'd been pretty good at 32 and 33.
Adrian Wilson was 33 for the pats--he'd played a lot (although apparently not particularly effectively) at age 31 and 32.
Galloway was 38 so I don't think he's a fair comp. Jon Lynch was 37.

I think the comps you're hoping for are Carter/Anderson from 2011--they were 32 and 28 but coming off of some bad seasons.
The best comp that you want to shoot for is Randy Moss. His last year in Minnesota and his 2 years in Oakland were subpar by his standards. He came to New England at age 30 and you know the rest.
 

pappymojo

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I wonder if the Patriots are purposely pursuing an alternating year approach towards comp picks or if it just the case where that is how it worked out this year. Load up on incoming free agents and players via trade that are signed to one year deals in one year (forgoing comp picks). Then in the following offseason, sign the players on your team that you like to extensions but let the others walk (bringing in comp picks).

Or was the approach this offseason where they seemingly committed to free agents (eliminating any comp picks) and talent via trades driven more by the deflategate penalties?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Yeah, the trade was always about the draft pick and the cap space. They were never going to prioritize Jones over Collins or Hightower, so I'm cool with them trying to capitalize while he had good value.
 

Super Nomario

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Yeah, the trade was always about the draft pick and the cap space. They were never going to prioritize Jones over Collins or Hightower, so I'm cool with them trying to capitalize while he had good value.
They could have let Jones walk and gotten a third as a comp pick. I would have rather they done that.
 

Super Nomario

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What's the present value of a third in 2018? Like a fourth in 2017, right? And the comp pick would be at the end of the third round, so more like a high fourth.
I don't subscribe to that kind of time discounting of draft picks. And the Cardinals pick was a late second, so basically a third.

I think it also opened up money to sign Chris Long..
It saved Jones' ~$7.8 MM ... but Jones is a bargain at that price. And they took on Cooper's ~$2.4 MM (fully guaranteed).
 

pappymojo

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There was also a more immediate need for a draft pick last year due to the competative balance frame job.
 

Super Nomario

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The room was used to sign Long and also trade for the Unicorn. I'd say this was still a good trade. If Thuney is as good as we all think he can be, Thuney for Jones would be a win for the Pats.
It didn't free up that much money. Jones makes ~$7.8 MM this year, but they took on Cooper (~$2.4), Thuney ($650K), and Mitchell ($600K). So they only saved like $4.5 MM. Bennett's hit alone is just north of $5MM.

Also, the Pats currently have ~$9.5 MM in cap space, so the idea that without trading Jones they couldn't have made the Bennett and Long moves doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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It didn't free up that much money. Jones makes ~$7.8 MM this year, but they took on Cooper (~$2.4), Thuney ($650K), and Mitchell ($600K). So they only saved like $4.5 MM. Bennett's hit alone is just north of $5MM.

Also, the Pats currently have ~$9.5 MM in cap space, so the idea that without trading Jones they couldn't have made the Bennett and Long moves doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
No but they can carry over that $9.5M to next year when they need more room for the young defenders. It sucks that Cooper didn't pan out but he wasn't the biggest part of the trade.
 

Super Nomario

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No but they can carry over that $9.5M to next year when they need more room for the young defenders. It sucks that Cooper didn't pan out but he wasn't the biggest part of the trade.
He wasn't the biggest part of the trade, but he was a significant part and he contributed nada. Actually less than nada because he's costing them $2.4 MM in cap space.
 

bankshot1

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I think the thinking was they had depth at edge guy/OLB/ with Sheard, Nink Flowers, could save $8M to spend on the other young D guys coming up for new contracts, and pick-up a #2 who could deliver value at a discount under a rookie contract, and then there was the synthetic dope biz.