New Britain Rock Cats Moving To Connecticut's Armpit

MuzzyField

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In the late-70's, they widened I-84 from the elevated mix-master (clusterfuck) to exit 24.  Right on time, the final phase of 3-laning is set to start next spring.  So, come 2020, it should be all fixed.
 
During the 70's construction, the state had to soundproof my school as they blasted away a good chunk of the hill that Holy Land and the the recently restored illuminated cross call home.   Chris Berman drove around in a station wagon doing traffic reports for 14NVR, 1400 on your AM dial.  The station's softball team was called the "Sultans of Swing".  If only Boomer had uttered the phrase, traffic is "back, back, backed up", a well deserved road rage event could have spared us all so much.  
 

bosoxsue

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Doug Beerabelli said:
Jewitt City?   Isn't that in Rhode Island?
 
No, Jewett City is a borough of Griswold. And the Willimantic mention is decent, although the Frog Bridge is pretty cool and the old Victorians are beautiful.
 

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Since this is Connecticut, the one of the remaining questions is who gets indicted for what. Will it be Segerra? Will it be someone in the Cloud family? Solomon? A member of the City Council?  It's only a matter of time before someone who didn't get theirs on this deal runs to the G-Men.
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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Trautwein's Degree said:
A fantastic post about how the residents of Hartford were screwed behind closed doors.
 
 
I was at City Hall this morning. The talk around the water coolers was overwhelmingly in opposition to this deal.
I talked with a lot of people at a church carnival in Wallingford and at work this moring in EH, and like TD, I found the ovrwhelming opinion is that the Rock Cats move and new stadium is a stupid idea. Basically the two comments I heard were: 
1) Baseball in New Britain is a good thing, why are they ruining it
2) I usually go to X numbr of games a year in New Britain. I will go to zero in Hartford's north end.
 
This whole scenario is beginning to remind me of Jeffrey Loria and the Expos in Montreal: threaten to leave, make a ridiculous demand for a new stadium, then book when cooler heads prevail and the stadium never comes to be.
 

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Papo The Snow Tiger said:
I talked with a lot of people at a church carnival in Wallingford and at work this moring in EH, and like TD, I found the ovrwhelming opinion is that the Rock Cats move and new stadium is a stupid idea. Basically the two comments I heard were: 
1) Baseball in New Britain is a good thing, why are they ruining it
2) I usually go to X numbr of games a year in New Britain. I will go to zero in Hartford's north end.
 
This whole scenario is beginning to remind me of Jeffrey Loria and the Expos in Montreal: threaten to leave, make a ridiculous demand for a new stadium, then book when cooler heads prevail and the stadium never comes to be.
Except I think this stadium gets built and the team moves. The secrecy, swiftness, and relative completeness of the deal suggests legitimacy to me. I heard Jeff Jacobs on ESPN Radio talking about how even he hadn't heard any rumors of this prior to Monday. 
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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Doug Beerabelli said:
Jewitt City?   Isn't that in Rhode Island?
A better guess than you think - it was all built with RI money. Jewett City was about stop #4 on Samuel Slater's New England Waterfall domination tour.
 

StuckOnYouk

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so am I understanding that new Britain can't get a minor league team becaus th rock cats are the only mL team allowed in hartford county?

If that's true, now I'm livid.

I saw Clemens in the 1983 EL championship game at beehive and hav taken my kids to the new stadium plenty of times. It's a perfect ML park.

Son of a bitch.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Trautwein's Degree said:
Harford County will remain exclusive minor league territory of the Rock Cats. The stadium in New Britain will largely be unused. Their best hope is luring an independent league team.

A sad day for a struggling town.
I think what you will end up with is a college summer team, similar to teams in New England Collegiate Baseball League, or Futures Collegiate Baseball League like Brockton Rox.
 

OCST

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Doug Beerabelli said:
Great assessments of Waterbury.  Worked there two year back in mid late 90s.   Firm was in a lovely victorian mansion on Buckingham Street - Hillside area.   I drove Pine St and Willow to get there, drove by many hookers with the 1000 yard stare.   Our building was lovely - a former Chase family bastion, likely 8K sq feet, had a former carriage house for the many cars.   And it was worth about $250K.    I was scared to to venture too far out from the property, and was always nervous when being the the last person to leave at night.   But Boulevard area on Hillside had some really nice places - you could see the glory of it, and what it must have been like during the time of the brass barons.   My kid plays baseball games on turf fields next to municipal stadium - looks like no work has been done on it for year.   The municipal golf courses aren't horrible (East Mtn and Western Hills), either and are in pretty good areas (whch of course border better towns like Prospect and Watertown).
 
 
Downtown got a lot of money, which is good, but courthouse and govt. buildings only add so much character.   The Palace renovation was incredible - great venue to see shows.   Town Plot, Bunker Hill are viable enclaves, with ethnic character, nice neighborhoods.   CC of Waterbury is very nice, and a unique (par 69) old Donald Ross course.   People who can afford to will send kids to catholic schools from elementary on up - one of our partners did that with all his kids.   Some good restaurants spread throughout the city.   My dad's business was in the South End, closer to Naugatuck, and I tried to avoid driving South Main into the city at night.   North end is to be avoided, too.   Big geographical area compared to Hartford.   And that's what killed Hartford - not somehow holding onto or sucking in the surrounding suburbs as official parts of the city.   Most big US cities have that component (at least non NE non colonial era ones).   All the $ departs the city to go home to to Glastonbury, Farmington, WHart, Avon, Simsbury etc. at night.  Waterbury has some "suburbs" built in, and more of the money stays.
 
If I had to live in one of those cities, I'd choose Waterbury over Hartford.    Stamford and Norwalk or New Haven I'd prefer over those two, though.
 
This is 100% true, and there's a wrinkle that's unique to CT and RI.  In most other states, the basic unit of local government is the county; then there are incorporated cities and towns within the counties; and lots of unincorporated areas that, while they may have a name and a post office, are not part of any incorporated town or city.  So planning and delivery of services often take place either at a county level, or there are single-purpose districts that encompass several towns/cities/unincorporated areas.  In places like PA, NJ, and parts of NY, there are a bewildering array of school districts, water districts, etc. that overlay the map.
 
CT and RI are not like that.  In those states, every single bit of land belongs to a city or town, which provides most local services (there are some groupings of services across town borders, like the little towns that share a high school, but it's minimal).  The county governments are weak, to the point of being non-existent.
 
That means that planning and services stop at the town border in CT (the classic example is driving on a back road during a snowstorm and hitting the town line, where one town has plowed and the next hasn't).  This isn't such a big deal if you're talking about going between Avon and Simsbury, but it's a big reason why the industrial cities in CT are such shitholes.  The surrounding suburban towns were happy to have all the unpleasantness of an urban area across the town line in the central city, and to maintain themselves as pleasant bedroom communities.
 

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Here's an article on this:
 


As minor league franchises go, New Britain has been a success and would be an attractive site for a new team. By minor league rules, the Rock Cats, by whatever name they use when they come to Hartford, have territorial rights to Hartford County and Hampden County, the Springfield/Western, Mass., area. A franchise's "territory" goes by county line, rather than mileage between franchises.
 
The new Hartford team, and the Eastern League, would have the right to block another MLB-affiliated franchise from moving into New Britain, which is only 13 miles away. When the Eastern League left Norwich, Dodd Stadium became home to the Tigers of the New York-Penn League, a short-season league that begins play in June and is usually where recent college players begin pro careers.
 
Fox-CT, citing an anonymous source, reported New Britain officials have been in contact with another Eastern League franchise. There has been talk that the Mets are interested in moving their affiliate from Binghamton, but there is almost no chance another Double A franchise would be allowed to move into New Britain. There has already been discussion, according to an industry source, about bringing an NY-Penn franchise to New Britain, and cautious optimism that the Hartford franchise might allow it — but no guarantee.
 
 


Mayor Stewart may be the only person "cautiously optimistic" that the Hartford team will allow another team in Hartford County. This is only because she is "cautiously naive" and got played hard in this. New Britain electing a crazy man and a 25 year old mayor in successive terms didn't help baseball's future in New Britain. Stewart was on the radio saying "they're lease isn't even up until the end of next year....we were going to negotiate closer to the end of that lease" or something to that effect shows just how over her head she is. This morning she was saying "there's still a year and a half left...turn out at the ballpark and show the owners how much you love and support the team" was kind of sad. If only NB show the Rockcats more love they'll stay? I think not.
 
Of course it's also highly unlikely that Hartford County could support 2 minor league teams.
 

hittery

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I don't put a huge amount of stock in anecdotal evident that people who went to games in NB won't go to Hartford, because I'm one of the people who WILL go to the games in Hartford but only went once to NB. So, there might be some balancing out with people who didn't want to schlep over to NB not having a problem going to a stadium in Hartford. I'm thinking especially of east of the river residents.
 

Plantiers Wart

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hittery said:
I don't put a huge amount of stock in anecdotal evident that people who went to games in NB won't go to Hartford, because I'm one of the people who WILL go to the games in Hartford but only went once to NB. So, there might be some balancing out with people who didn't want to schlep over to NB not having a problem going to a stadium in Hartford. I'm thinking especially of east of the river residents.
 
 
There are people on the other side of this river??  Is that something new? 
 

bosoxsue

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New Britain is too far away for my east-of-the-river crowd, unless it's for a group package such as scouts or something for school. We're more of a Norwich crowd. Hartford won't be of much allure. Connecticut is odd, also, in how once you go two, three towns away, it's considered a "long drive."
 

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Plantiers Wart said:
 
 
There are people on the other side of this river??  Is that something new? 
Glastonbury. Glastonbury is east of the river. What else lurks over here - I'm unsure.
 

MuzzyField

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StuckOnYouk said:
Is this a minor league rule? Only one team per county or per X miles?
Back in the day, New Haven County had EL teams in Waterbury and West Haven.  My guess is that as MiLB has become more of an industry and less of a hobby the rules governing such things as territories have been fortified, but my guess is miles are the more likely determining factor.
 

Traut

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There is fucking one lane in each direction that connects 91 with 84W. This is brilliant urban planning in the event people show up.
 

hittery

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What sucks about this plan is not that baseball is coming to Hartford. I'm cool with that. What sucks is the location. That is a dead zone created by I-84. Lots of cities created similar problematic areas when they built intersecting interstates. It effectively cut the actual "North End" off from the rest of the city. There was much public talk about revitalizing this area (just as they are doing in other cities) in a way to increase foot traffic and improve the quality of life for the residents. A stadium will not do that.
 

Moosey

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Trautwein's Degree said:
Glastonbury. Glastonbury is east of the river. What else lurks over here - I'm unsure.
 
Willington Pizza, then Uconn.  That's pretty much it.
 
New Britain is further away from me than the proposed stadium in Hartford but I avoid Hartford like the plague.  Among people I know almost all of them will go further to avoid Hartford, which made New Britain a good location for baseball.
 
I would be surprised if this is a draw for the post work crowd.  People on the other side of downtown aren't going to want to hoof it over to the park or find closer parking.  They will just go home.  It's Hartford, the tumbleweed comes out at 5pm, I don't see this changing that.
 

Rovin Romine

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Trautwein's Degree said:
Glastonbury. Glastonbury is east of the river. What else lurks over here - I'm unsure.
 
Mostly it's just a lot of small towns, apart from the Glastonbury/East Hartford/Manchester cluster, Norwich, Willimantic, and New London.  The quiet corner is pretty nice, but only if you like quiet.  
 
If I had to move back to CT, and could live anywhere, I'd move to the NE or the NW of the state.  
 

mabrowndog

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MuzzyField said:
Remember when there where NO lanes connecting 84E with 91N, those were good times!
 
Oh, the humanity. They started working on that interchange in 1990, just before I moved from Bloomfield to Chicago. I was out there for 3 years.
 
When I moved back (to Holyoke MA) they were STILL working on it. Soon I was splitting my work time between our plant in West Springfield and corporate in Cheshire CT. For another 16 months, construction continued.
 
Off I went to Jersey for a 6-month stint, followed by 7 months in Houston, with multiple trips back where I flew into Bradley and drove down to Cheshire for meetings. And the project was STILL incomplete.
 
When I moved back East (to Waterbury) it STILL wasn't done. IIRC, when I moved to Atlanta in late 1996, they finally seemed to be approaching the end. I've since been through Hartford just once (driving from NYC to Springfield & back in 2002) so I have no idea when they actually finished it.
 

bosoxsue

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It is finished, but traffic flow through the area is still far from smooth. Something about that stupid "tunnel" makes drivers anxious.
 

mabrowndog

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Fred not Lynn said:
I think what you will end up with is a college summer team, similar to teams in New England Collegiate Baseball League, or Futures Collegiate Baseball League like Brockton Rox.
 
Agreed. The landscape for an independent franchise doesn't appear all that great in the Northeast. The Can-Am League (which is now operating as a division of the American Association) is down to just 4 teams split between two countries (2 in Quebec, 1 in Little Falls NJ, and 1 in Ramapo NY). With the folding of the Newark Bears earlier this year (despite auctioning off all possessions & equipment, the franchise is still for sale) the Can-Am appears to be on life support (while it operates independently of the Midwest-focused AA, it's clearly based on shitty logistics).
 
The Atlantic League has 7 northeastern & Mid-Atlantic teams (including the Bridgeport Bluefish and clubs in Central Islip NY & Camden NJ), and an 8th team outside Houston (Sugar Land Skeeters).
 
If the Can-Am/AA arrangement proves untenable, one might expect its US teams (NJ Jackals and Rockland Boulders) to be absorbed by the Atlantic (both their stadiums are gorgeous, built in 1998 & 2011 respectively). However, the Atlantic already has plans to add two Virginia teams next year (in Ashburn & VA Beach), and a group in Malden MA is trying to build a new stadium there to field a team for 2016 (though predictable delays persist). The league is also planning to expand westward with 4 to 6 teams joining the Skeeters in another division.
 
That would all seem to leave New Britain on the outs, despite having a move-in-ready fan-friendly ballpark. Then again, perhaps the Atlantic sees it as an opportunity worth seizing. More likely, it'll become a summer league venue.
 
Trautwein's Degree said:
A fantastic post about how the residents of Hartford were screwed behind closed doors.
 
 
I was at City Hall this morning. The talk around the water coolers was overwhelmingly in opposition to this deal.
 
Everything I read in that article makes me mad.
 
Ragland said, “There’s clear evidence from all around the country that sports teams do not work as economic drivers, and we’re going to have another dead end like Dillon Stadium sitting right in the middle of the city, except [the yet-to-be-named baseball stadium will have] the distinction of being completely divorced from the cultural, social and economic realities of the city which will surround it.”
 
 
There are concerns that surface lots with remain indefinitely, even when every plan discussed in recent years involves trying to reduce or remove them. Segarra said at the press conference that there would be no need for additional parking; yet, the rendering clearly shows two parking garages that are neither labeled nor explained. It also includes new buildings not described during the press conference.
 
 
The Downtown North area, which was supposedly about to be changed to be more walkable, is now going to be about, in Segarra’s words, “harnessing” the cars that are in the area. Mayor Segarra said on Wednesday that he has “worked really hard to increase vibrancy in the city, especially downtown.”
 
 
The worst I think is the made-up numbers. Where do they come from and more importantly where does this money come from?
 

Traut

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It's outright thievery. It is the worst decision Hartford has made in a longtime. The cost is 90 million to the city. Just obscene.
 

Fred not Lynn

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mabrowndog said:
 
That would all seem to leave New Britain on the outs, despite having a move-in-ready fan-friendly ballpark. Then again, perhaps the Atlantic sees it as an opportunity worth seizing. More likely, it'll become a summer league venue.
From a business perspective, there's little reason to have an indy league team anymore. Most of your fans are there for a "ballpark experience", and won't really notice a difference in level between college summer and indy pro ball...

...so knowing that, why own a business where you have to pay your employees when you can get one where they have to come work for you for free?
 

Tim Salmon

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hittery said:
No, it's Bridgeport. Jesus.
 
This is true.  I grew up in Windsor, not far from Hartford's North End, and I've been all over the state.  Hell, I was held up at gunpoint in New Haven less than eight hours after moving there.  I still say Bridgeport is the armpit and grundle of Connecticut.  I don't see it "working its way back" anytime soon (sorry, Joe Ganim).  The yuppies seem to have brought the gentrification train to a stop in Stamford.
 

Rico Guapo

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They're insane if they think the municipal bond market will support this deal. Hartford itself is rated A by S&P mostly on the account that it's pension plans are relatively well funded around 75%, other than that the city has pretty significant challenges facing it each year.
 
I'm guessing there will have to be backing on the debt from the city itself, not just a lien on revenues of the stadium.
 
Deals like this have caused financial issues for several cities (Kent, WA and the ShoWare center, Harrisburg and the incinerator project)...
 

Traut

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PW is right, there's state involvement in this. That will come out after the election. Because if it came out now, it could cost Malloy his job.

Nothing gets built in Hartford without money from the State.
 

smastroyin

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So they make a deal that likely hurts two cities for no reason other than to satisfy some political egos?  I also assume some developer with connections is going to get PAID.
 
Sounds awesome.
 
I'm a big believer in urban ballparks, but not in public investment.  I also fail to see how this is going to spur development in that area given the highway situation.  
 

Plantiers Wart

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The next contractor/stadium management company whose top execs max out with $10,000 contributions to the CT Democratic Party will get the bids.....
 

8slim

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Coincidentally, I attended a Rock Cats game for the first time last night and it was a lot of fun.  Great little ballpark -- easy access, cheap parking, family vibe, everything minor league ball should be.  I live next door to Bridgeport (on the good side) and hit up a few Bluefish games each summer.  That's fun, but I prefer affiliated ball since then you can track the players into the majors.
 
I was thinking that I'd take my kids to a couple Rock Cats games now that I know how enjoyable it is, but I'd definitely be unlikely to go to that Hartford location, especially if there's little parking!
 
The other thing that I find odd... why does Hartford want a AA team?  Shouldn't a former NHL city that has an AHL franchise and major college team playing there be setting it's sights on a AAA club?  Shouldn't Hartford want to be in the same league as Rochester, Syracuse, Norfolk and Buffalo? 
 

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8slim said:
The other thing that I find odd... why does Hartford want a AA team?  Shouldn't a former NHL city that has an AHL franchise and major college team playing there be setting it's sights on a AAA club?  Shouldn't Hartford want to be in the same league as Rochester, Syracuse, Norfolk and Buffalo? 
Is that the long term play? Build a park, use a short term tenant to pilfer public funds and then later lure a AAA team?
I don't know enough of the contracts to know if that is a real possibility, just asking.
 

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Byrdbrain said:
Is that the long term play? Build a park, use a short term tenant to pilfer public funds and then later lure a AAA team?
I don't know enough of the contracts to know if that is a real possibility, just asking.
 
Hard to know, but they'd only need to squeeze a few hundred more seats on top of the projected capacity of this stadium to get to the minimum 10,000 required for AAA clubs.  I could see a team like the Mets going this route.  they've bounced around for a while since leaving Norfolk and are currently slumming it in Las Vegas, which isn't ideal from either a proximity or climate perspective.  The trend in recent years for well-run clubs is to have your upper level ml affiliates relatively close by in order to make the transition and travel to/from the big club easier.  Of course, The Mets have never been accused of being a well-run team, so...
 

Plantiers Wart

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I think the 10k seating standard has been less stringently applied recently. Recall seeing story of one being built with 9000 on recent past. On phone and lazy so will look later
 

mabrowndog

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Fred not Lynn said:
From a business perspective, there's little reason to have an indy league team anymore. Most of your fans are there for a "ballpark experience", and won't really notice a difference in level between college summer and indy pro ball...

...so knowing that, why own a business where you have to pay your employees when you can get one where they have to come work for you for free?
 
One argument would be the season length. Collegiate summer leagues generally run from mid-June through July, with only qualified playoff teams playing into early/mid August. Independent leagues operate like most full-season affiliates, from early April through August with playoffs stretching into September. It's roughly 50 days for summer leagues and 150 for independent pro leagues. That's a lot more dates on which to sell high-profit concessions (sodas, hot dogs, and crap from the souvenirs stands) and charge for parking (if that's a factor). And speaking of high margins, I've yet to attend an NCAA-sponsored summer league baseball game where alcohol is sold.
 
While I'm not certain this is the rule at all NCAA summer leagues, the Cape Cod league doesn't charge admission. It's a donations-only thing, with a general expectation that you'll throw 2-3 bucks into the coffee can for each person in your group as you pass the volunteer-staffed table at the entrance, and hopefully buy a $5 league program from them. So really, all the revenue comes from NCAA subsidies, concessions, and private donations & sponsorship (signs, etc.)  Each team also has to recruit and vet reliable host families with clean homes to house & feed the players (the families are compensated by the NCAA, but each team is responsible for managing that operation).
 

Byrdbrain

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The Silver Knights in Nashua( http://nashuasilverknights.com/view/nashuaknights/silver-knights-headlines#.U5TAOPldWSo ) are part of the FCBL which I assume is an NCAA sanctioned league as the kids would't risk eligibility playing if not. They charge admission and they used to sell beer(they just started up haven't been there this year).
 
In looking at the scheduled promotions for this year I see they are advertising multiple $1 "beverage" nights so either they can't sell beer any more or they do and just can't say so on the web site.
 

Fred not Lynn

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I may be wrong, but I don't think college summer ball is limited to leagues with an actual NCAA sanction/connection...As long as it's a fully amateur league, I don't think things like admission charges or beer sales matter.

As far as length of season goes, in many locations, having to play in April and May might be more liability than asset between questionable weather, and spectator demand just not being there until kids are out of school.