NBA Finals Thread

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
They were right.  Not three.  Not four.  Not five.  And not six.
 
Seeing LeBron walk back on defense at the very end, just before he came out, was special.  Yeah, the game was long over, but I enjoyed seeing clearly that he had given up.  A lot.
 
 
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
For LeBron, I don't know how you can blame him for this series. He got nothing from his supporting cast. Tonight, he came out and emptied his gun early, and it still wasn't enough. The Heat didn't lose this finals because LeBron choked, they lost because San Antonio was simply better.
 
Think of what the Heat were asking LeBron to do. They needed him to score at least 35 points, they needed him to be their top playmaker, and they needed him to kill himself on defense guarding guys all over the court. No one could do that against a team as good as the Spurs, not even MJ. For his time in Miami, the Heat have managed to get support for LeBron. Wade was a different player, Bosh could give you 20, and the Heat would always get a role player (Battier, Mike Miller, Cole, Chalmers) that would get them 15-20 points. LeBron didn't any of that this series.
 
He finished the game with 31 points, 10 boards and 5 assists. What did he need to do, score 45 points. grab 17 boards and get 10 assists? How is that a realistic expectation for anyone? I'm a big detractor on LeBron, but I have no complaints for him this series, the Heat just didn't have the horses to beat  a DOMINANT Spurs team.
 

bball831

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
4,965
Lebron has to leave and get away from Wade as fast as he can.  Wade has absolytely nothing left and doesn't seem like he has any determination to improve parts of his game to make up for his physical downfall.  
 
FREE LEBRON!
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
Other then tons of cash, why should Wade keep playing basketball? He can't guard anybody anymore, doesn't have close to the same explosiveness and since he can't reliably hit a shot beyond 15 feet, he has to settle for tough runners in the lane. He took a beating early in his career, and that shows now. Back in the day, he would retire, but he is a total minus for the Heat right now.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,742
Rotten Apple
Bron: Haven't heard anything about Carmelo, doesn't care about what people speculate about the summer, the Spurs are the best team he's played. Played the best 'team basketball.'
 

bball831

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
4,965
scottyno said:
he could have showed up for more than 1 quarter each of games 3 4 and 5
 
Or maybe Wade could shoot better than 7-25 the last two games or score more than 11 points or have more than 4 assists.  Maybe Bosh could score more than 13 points in one of these last few games.  Maybe he could get something from one of the role players like the Spurs got from Patty Mills.  Nah let's rag on Lebron for leading the team in points, rebounds and assists.
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
He finished the game with 31 points, 10 boards and 5 assists. What did he need to do, score 45 points. grab 17 boards and get 10 assists?
If that's what it took to win the game? Yes. LeBron is the best player in the world, but he doesn't have that near pathological need to win, like Jordan or Russell. His performance was not the stuff of which legends are made.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
The ultimate thing I can say about LeBron and the Spurs: Does anybody think that if you put prime MJ on this Heat team, they would have been able to beat this Spurs team? I don't think so. The Spurs team was just so amazing, maybe the best team every when you consider the fact that they won 62 games in a torturous conference and then rolled some really talented teams in the playoffs. The Heat got a plus performance from literally one player on their team, everyone else blew it.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,304
bball831 said:
 
Or maybe Wade could shoot better than 7-25 the last two games or score more than 11 points or have more than 4 assists.  Maybe Bosh could score more than 13 points in one of these last few games.  Maybe he could get something from one of the role players like the Spurs got from Patty Mills.  Nah let's rag on Lebron for leading the team in points, rebounds and assists.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Wade didn't suck the last 2 games, and Bosh certainly could have done a bit more, but no one is comparing him or Bosh to the best players of all time either so he's held to a higher standard
 

ishmael

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 3, 2006
640
RedOctober3829 said:
He needs a team around him that fills specific roles and does the dirty work.
Because of atrocious management in Cleveland and the multiple superstars in Miami, this has never happened.
 
Although we saw a little bit with Battier and Ray, how much of a lift LeBron can give skilled role players. The one piece he could use the most is a high quality defensive big. Imagine how well someone like Serge Ibaka would fit in on a team with LeBron...
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,684
where the darn libs live
Brickowski said:
IMHO LeBron sitting out the last three minutes was extraordinary. He was like a dog that rolls over on its belly and concedes. Can you imagine MJ not being in there, or Bird or Russell?
 
..... what?
 
Jesus.
 
The game was over.  20 points with 3 minutes to go.  Stop it.  Just fucking stop it.
 
Now we're mad at LBJ because he didn't make it a 13 point game?
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,017
Oregon
CaptainLaddie said:
Now we're mad at LBJ because he didn't make it a 13 point game?
 
Not just that. His team didn't win the title for a third year in a row!
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,684
where the darn libs live
Brickowski said:
If that's what it took to win the game? Yes. LeBron is the best player in the world, but he doesn't have that near pathological need to win, like Jordan or Russell. His performance was not the stuff of which legends are made.
 
Oh, you can read his mind?
 
Good to know.
 
Did you watch this game?
 

 
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,205
Comparing LeBron to MJ or Bird is kind of pointless.  Different eras and different styles of basketball being played.  If you hate LeBron, you just got more ammo to criticize him.  However, for those of us who, at least, admire his dominance, we'll chalk this up to him running into a great basketball team with the best coaching and management.   
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,684
where the darn libs live
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Comparing LeBron to MJ or Bird is kind of pointless.  Different eras and different styles of basketball being played.  If you hate LeBron, you just got more ammo to criticize him.  However, for those of us who, at least, admire his dominance, we'll chalk this up to him running into a great basketball team with the best coaching and management.   
"some of us are smart".
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
It's possible to fully appreciate LeBron's greatness and still hate the shit out of him.
 
And for those in that camp, seeing him come up small and seeing the flashes of dooshiness that always seem to be there, this is a very sweet morning.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Brickowski said:
IMHO LeBron sitting out the last three minutes was extraordinary. He was like a dog that rolls over on its belly and concedes. Can you imagine MJ not being in there, or Bird or Russell?
 
Lebron played his standard great game, and really didn't rest until the 4th quarter.
 
Having said that, he did sit out the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter which I thought was pretty insane.  The game was hovering around 18 points, and while almost certainly over, it was not an impossible comeback.  Not sure if Lebron asked out or Spoelstra just threw in the towel, but in an elimination game, that was odd.
 
When he came out, I thought he was going to get a 1 minute breather and come back for one last desperation push with 5 minutes left. 
 

Zomp

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Aug 28, 2006
13,942
The Slums of Shaolin
TheoShmeo said:
It's possible to fully appreciate LeBron's greatness and still hate the shit out of him.
 
And for those in that camp, seeing him come up small and seeing the flashes of dooshiness that always seem to be there, this is a very sweet morning.
 
31, 10, and 5 is coming up small in a finals game?Or do you mean the series, where he averaged 28, 8, and 4 while shooting at a 57% clip?
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

Guest
The biggest criticism that you can make of LeBron is that he picked his coach, and arguably his teammates, somewhat poorly.
 
He had ~40 minutes to try and win the game tonight.  He failed.  Then the Spurs had a few minutes in which to take out their starters to thunderous applause and group hugs.  What was to be gained by upstaging that moment?
 

ivanvamp

captain obvious
Jul 18, 2005
6,104
I think that the most important aspect of the Spurs, along with the fact that they have an all-time great coach, is that their big three of Duncan, Ginobli, and Parker, all have been willing to play for a lot less than other big stars have.  I mean, they're just making $30 million among the three of them.  
 

ivanvamp

captain obvious
Jul 18, 2005
6,104
Zomp said:
 
31, 10, and 5 is coming up small in a finals game?Or do you mean the series, where he averaged 28, 8, and 4 while shooting at a 57% clip?
 
LeBron was NOT in any way the problem this series.  He got no help whatsoever.  
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
Zomp said:
 
31, 10, and 5 is coming up small in a finals game?Or do you mean the series, where he averaged 28, 8, and 4 while shooting at a 57% clip?
Zomp: I meant losing the series (which I recognize is not coming up small given how well he played individually).  Crappy choice of words on my part.  I admit it, I'm still quite giddy.
 
Though I did fully enjoy seeing him obvously giving up while still on the court on his last possession, when he did not run back on defense.  To me, that IS coming up small on a micro scale, but again, that's not what I meant. 
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
canderson said:
So question for the much-more-basketbally savvy: Where does this Spurs team rank in the echelon of Great NBA Teams(tm)?
 
Honestly, they might not even have made it out of the West if Ibaka didn't miss the first two games of the OKC series, and Dallas took them to 7 in the first round. 
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Wait, are you talking about the 15 years of Duncan teams overall, or just this season? It's hard to compare them because they've never won back to back titles (they never made back to back Finals before this year), very unusual for a great team.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,651
where I was last at
canderson said:
So question for the much-more-basketbally savvy: Where does this Spurs team rank in the echelon of Great NBA Teams(tm)?
Putting aside the issue of comping teams from different eras;
 
Off the top of my head, there are several teams that were greater than the Heat over extended periods. 
 
'60s Celts
80's Celts
80s Lakers
90's Bulls
Current Spurs
late '80s-90s Pistons
70-73 Knicks
 
and year specific
 
'86 Celts
'87 Lakers
'67 76ers
'72 Lakers
'96 Bulls
'76 Trail Blazers
 
were all more dominant, as were several Russell Celtic teams
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
No, LeBron was not the reason the Heat lost this series, but when you publicly proclaim that you and your hand-picked pals will win 'Not one ... not two ... not three ...not four ... not five ... not six ... not seven' but eight rings, you put a pretty big target on your back.  That is promising that you will eclipse all but one of the greatest players in NBA history in terms of championships won, so the expectations are set for a superhuman effort when one's teammates crap the bed.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
Honestly, I have been a big proponent of the classic teams being better than today's teams in the LeBron/Heat vs 86 Celtics thread, but in my short lifetime (I only recently turned 20) the Spurs were the best basketball team I have ever seen as it was happening. With that being said, I think they have to be one of the top 5 teams ever.
 
For starters, their regular season was spectacular. 62 wins in what might have been the most competitive conference ever. And half the time the Spurs were barely even trying to win. No player on their team averaged more than 30 minutes per game (I believe they were the first team EVER to do that) and there were multiple occasions where the big 3 was completely rested for entire games. If they actually cared about winning every single game, I think they could have won 70 this season, it is seriously in play.
 
In addition, they ROLLED in the playoffs. For some reason, everyone is talking about the Dallas series again, talking about how it is a black mark on the Spurs season. As if taking 7 games to beat a 49 win team (49 wins in the ultra hard west) with a top 30 all time player, a great head coach and savvy talent across the board, was a bad thing. They then took a Portland team that played REALLY well against Houston and just ran them off the court. Next up was OKC, a team a lot of people thought was better. The Ibaka absence and then comeback was overblown, I still think San Antonio would have won the first two games easily even with Ibaka.
 
In the NBA finals, they took on the two time defending NBA champs in a series where everyone thought was a toss up. Instead, the Spurs throttled them to a historic level. No team in NBA history has ever had a more impressive finals, setting the all-time record for point differential, which is even crazier when you consider how even these two teams were going into the series.
 
Lastly, I'm going to go to something Simmons wrote in his book. Say whatever you want about him, but the guys knows his hoops history and does a great job of putting all the accomplishments into context. In his chapter about all-time great teams, he talks about their being three tiers of all-time great teams. The first tier was a team capturing it's first title. A bunch of guys who have never climbed the mountain finally reach the summit into the culmination of winning. They can be great, but because they haven't won yet, there is still a level of doubt. The second tier is for a Champion defending it's title. These are great teams that now they are great and will do anything to protect their throne. The third and most elusive tier is a great team playing with a Fuck You edge. This is a former champion, who, due to circumstances that took place before the season began, decided it was going to play the entire season pissed off, eventually steamrolling its way to the finals. The 86 Celtics were great because they were pissed off that they blew the 85 finals, so they came out and unleashed holy hell on the league. The 2014 Spurs are another perfect example, a great team, pissed off that they lost the title the previous year, then rolled through everybody. They even talked about how last years loss was fueling them all the time during the regular season. That was what made them truly so great, and turned them from a great team, to an all-time great team.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Kliq said:
The Ibaka absence and then comeback was overblown, I still think San Antonio would have won the first two games easily even with Ibaka.
 
 
Obviously we'll never know either way, but this is based on nothing. OKC swept all four regular season games from the Spurs and had beaten them I think 10 out of 12 coming into this series.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
jon abbey said:
 
Obviously we'll never know either way, but this is based on nothing. OKC swept all four regular season games from the Spurs and had beaten them I think 10 out of 12 coming into this series.
 
It's actually based on the fact that the Spurs won the first two games at home, by margins of 17 and 35 points. Ibaka is a fine player, but he isn't worth THAT much.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Kliq said:
 
It's actually based on the fact that the Spurs won the first two games at home, by margins of 17 and 35 points. Ibaka is a fine player, but he isn't worth THAT much.
 
Well, he was in games 3 and 4, and in the four regular season meetings, and in the 2012 playoffs when OKC beat the Spurs four in a row. OKC can't afford to lose any of Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka, they lost Westbrook last year and quickly went out to Memphis. 
 

rembrat

Member
SoSH Member
May 26, 2006
36,345
I will continue to hate on LeBron because of fiasco that was The Decision. I can't give him a pass for that.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
JohnnyTheBone said:
I don't think anyone is complaining, just pointing out that it was an ill-advised comment that makes him look arrogant and entitled in retrospect. 
Yes, complaining is the wrong word.  Reveling is more like it.  Or basking.  Or chortling.  How often do we ever get to chortle?
 
And let's not forget the context of that hideous boast: The immediate aftermath of his "taking my talents to South Beach" line and queen sized dump in the mouths of all Ohions.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
jon abbey said:
 
Well, he was in games 3 and 4, and in the four regular season meetings, and in the 2012 playoffs when OKC beat the Spurs four in a row. OKC can't afford to lose any of Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka, they lost Westbrook last year and quickly went out to Memphis. 
 
The Spurs don't care about the regular season, we all know that, so their record in those games is a non-factor as much as I am concerned. And going back to 2012, when the Spurs were a completely different team, means nothing as well.
 
Yes, OKC needs all hands on deck, but even if they were, that doesn't mean they would have beaten SA anyways. It wasn't like San Antonio was barely scraping by OKC when they didn't have Ibaka, but that wasn't the case. If San Antonio had won close games to start the series, then you might have a case that Ibaka would have swung that series, but they didn't, they got blown out. Because OKC came to life at home and fought back into the series with Ibaka, I think people overreact to the storyline that Ibaka clearly would have had a big enough impact to win those games at the start of the series. Ibaka played in game 5 and 6 as well, and the Spurs took care of business.
 

Mugthis

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2002
842
Berkeley, CA
It's hard to place the '14 Spurs team at they very top of the all-time list, just by the sheer amount of losses they had this season (I believe 27). On the other hand, the WC this year may have been the toughest ever and they just had the most dominating Finals performances ever. These last 3 games...I've never seen anything like it. I was constantly shaking my had and mumbling "Wow" to myself. I was hoping the Heat would win (mostly just for my own ego), but I quickly realized they had little chance at winning. The Spurs were the closest thing I've seen to perfect basketball. They didn't have a single hole on their team. They had 4 or 5 great players AND 4 or 5 great role players, all playing together perfectly in this brilliant system. 
 
I'm sure last year's Heat team would have done better (and probably the '12 Heat team, since Wade was much better), but I doubt they win. I guess the Shaq-Kobe '01 team would have been tough, but I'm not sure they could have stopped that offense. No team has ever had the combination of ball+player movement, spacing, and 3 point shooting working so harmoniously. '96 or '91 Bulls, obviously. '87 Lakers, '86 Celtics? I dunno. Probably depends on which rule book is being used.
 
My dream is for LeBron to jump ship and join San Antonio (yes, I realize this is basically impossible). I just want to see the smartest, most well-rounded player play in the smartest, most well-rounded system. No one would beat that team. 
 

The Social Chair

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
6,082
I can't imagine caring about the "decision" anymore. It was a bad idea and he has since apologized for it. Since that first bumpy year in Miami Lebron has played the game that right way on the court and been a model athlete off of it. Jordan, for example, is completely unlikable off the court and never spoke out on any race or political issues out of fear of losing sneaker sales. Lebron has never been afraid to voice his opinion and I respect that.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Kliq said:
 
Yes, OKC needs all hands on deck, but even if they were, that doesn't mean they would have beaten SA anyways. 
 
Right, that wasn't what I was arguing. You initially said the Spurs win those games easily even with Ibaka, I strongly disagree. The guy is their entire defense, and they had no experience playing big games without him. Injuries happen to every team, but this specific one was a nice break for SA against a team who they had real trouble beating at full strength. That's it.  
 

Bigpupp

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 8, 2008
2,390
New Mexico
The Social Chair said:
I can't imagine caring about the "decision" anymore. It was a bad idea and he has since apologized for it.
Has he? The only apology I have ever seen about that included the word "but" and came across as completely missing the point.
 

Mugthis

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2002
842
Berkeley, CA
Bigpupp said:
Has he? The only apology I have ever seen about that included the word "but" and came across as completely missing the point.
 
How much does he really need to apologize for the sin of raising millions of dollars for charity as well as awkwardly and arrogantly announcing that he's changing which professional basketball team pays him money?
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
This is a perfect storm for recrimination, and the Spurs will never get their due.

1. The anti-LBJ contingent is always going to be large, whether because of The Decision, ESPN's endless pimping of stars, or whatever. You have a sizable group thinking, erroneously (see Wilt), that the best player should always win, and taking great joy when he doesn't. So even when that guy does not play poorly, you can say that he chose his teammates poorly. Even though they have appeared in the last four finals. Haters will not be denied.

2. In that connection, a good chunk doesn't have much use for Pop, his system, or the Spurs sustained excellence. I don't give a flying fuck about regular season records. Championships matter. Pop feels the same way. Nobody likes the smartest guy in the room, especially when he is the smartest guy. Like hatred, jealousy is a powerful force.

3. People don't like to be embarrassed. Especially media people. Nobody saw this coming. There was a respectable and wide body of opinion that the Spurs had an excellent chance because of their depth. Those people has this going 7, maybe 6, and saw a very tight, competitive series. This series was not at all competitive. The Spurs took their measure after 2 games, flipped a switch or two, and it was over. Last night's 33 point swing -- in a must game for Mia -- was all the proof you need that if this series were replayed, it would be no more competitive than the one that was played. Lots of eggs on lots of faces. You take the sting out if that be arguing, against all evidence, that Miami sucks.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,684
where the darn libs live
MentalDisabldLst said:
The biggest criticism that you can make of LeBron is that he picked his coach, and arguably his teammates, somewhat poorly.
 
He had ~40 minutes to try and win the game tonight.  He failed.  Then the Spurs had a few minutes in which to take out their starters to thunderous applause and group hugs.  What was to be gained by upstaging that moment?
 

I wish the Celtics could have the same problem, losing two titles and winning two titles in four years.  That's definitely poor teammate selection by LeBron.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,684
where the darn libs live
The Social Chair said:
I can't imagine caring about the "decision" anymore. It was a bad idea and he has since apologized for it. Since that first bumpy year in Miami Lebron has played the game that right way on the court and been a model athlete off of it. Jordan, for example, is completely unlikable off the court and never spoke out on any race or political issues out of fear of losing sneaker sales. Lebron has never been afraid to voice his opinion and I respect that.
 

All of this.
 

LuckyBen

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 5, 2012
3,396
CaptainLaddie said:
 
I wish the Celtics could have the same problem, losing two titles and winning two titles in four years.  That's definitely poor teammate selection by LeBron.
 
The Celtics did have this problem a short while ago.  They were just a team full of what ifs.