National Title Game Thread

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,745
The sequence at the end of the first half was huge, UNC up 39-32 and Villanova holding for the last shot. They turn it over with 14 seconds left, UNC goes the other way, and Josh Hart makes a sick block, then they go the other way and Booth hits a sweet pullup at the buzzer. It easily could have been 41-32 but instead it was 39-34.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,745
I think 2008 Kansas/Memphis was better, two #1 seeds with six or seven future NBA players between them including the #1 pick and future MVP Derrick Rose, and a game that went to OT after a sick Chalmers 3 to tie it before Kansas pulled away in OT.

This one was almost certainly top 3 or 5, though.
 
Dec 21, 2015
1,410
"Cats win it all! Cats win it all! Cats win it all!"
Is reminiscent of a certain Dave O'Brien call...
I thought he was going for a "Giants win the pennant!" vibe. Which I wouldn't deny him, given the drama. But he was in far less hysterics than he should have been, given the moment - the teamstream call is the best of the bunch I think (unless you count Barkley). Those guys were shouting themselves hoarse and tearing up in joy.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,299
AZ
I agree, although in his post-game he said he was worried about checking with the refs about the time to see if they would have to defend against one last shot attempt from UNC.

But the "bang" was awesome.
I think he's making it up. He turned to walk toward Williams pretty quickly.

I think they were all stunned, though. Even Jenkins's reaction was more muted than you'll see on a buzzer beater in a non-conference game in November. The players on the bench got it immediately. But I think everyone else took a second to realize they had just won the national championship.

One little moment that will get forgotten except by the Nova fans that will sit through it 100 times as they replay the game is the delay right before the big shot because the kid with the sweat mop couldn't understand where the ref wanted him to clear and one of the Nova players had to do it. Just 30 extra seconds for the NC players to have to be on the court thinking about playing defense and I wonder if it mattered at all. Probably not.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Ochefu was the one mopping. He said in the press conference that he had just fallen there and it was the spot where he was going to be setting a pick, so he wanted to make sure no one slipped. I doubt anyone's radar goes off when a player grabs the mop, but he was determined to not let something small screw up the final play.

Just well executed by Arch. He crosses Barry up just when Barry thinks he's going to step on the gas. Barry opens his hips and is ready to run and Arch goes the other way and had daylight from there. After 5-6(?) missed free throws down the stretch counting both teams, it was good to see the game decided with made shots. Unbelievable shots.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,582
NOVA
Just watched it. How do you not guard the inbounder... like at all? Oldest trick in the book is to give it back to the inbounder for the last second shot. That said, I doubt Nova ever expected that he'd be unguarded. The guy who ended up contesting the shot had the screener and then was doubling on the ball handler. He did all he could while the rest of Carolina sat in the lane. Incredible breakdown defensively.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
You can nitpick the inbounds defending, but in the end it was perfect execution by Villanova. Jenkins running his ass off to get in position to take that shot was awesome.
It's both. Poor defense and great execution. Not sure why the former can't be discussed.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,303
deep inside Guido territory
It's both. Poor defense and great execution. Not sure why the former can't be discussed.
It can be, but saying it was poor defense is wrong. I think UNC played that whole sequence the way it should have been played. The first responsibility on that play in a tie game is the ball. You can't let Arch drive to the basket for a layup in any circumstance. You also don't want to get too close to any player and risk a foul either. That's why any closeout had to be taking with caution. If I'm Roy, I can live with them making a 3 for the win versus a layup.

The only thing I'd criticize is not guarding the inbounder, but like I said I tip my cap to Villanova.
 

Greg29fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
20,487
NC
Roy wanted Brice under the hoop to prevent a drive and a layup and given Hicks had been called for the phantomest of phantom fouls 30 seconds earlier, they couldn't get overly aggressive.

At the end of the day a 38% three point shooter made a great shot. I hate it but I can live with it a lot more than a drive/layup. Like I said last night I would have liked to have seen Hicks's contest be better but Nova made a great play.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
Brice is 6'10 with crazy athleticism. He should have been closer to the FT line. The entire play was in front of him and both guys on the right were well guarded. Archie literally did not have enough time to drive for a layup. I get starting him near the hoop but he needed to creep up. Bad defense? Well, I don't think Berry and Hicks covered themselves in glory but they were not in the easiest position. Can be tough to contain someone coming at you at full speed. They needed more help but did not get it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,299
AZ
In thinking about it again, I can't believe he passed. What an amazing assist. Ball in your hands, chance to take the shot you've dreamed about your whole life, and it sounds as though the play was one where he had discretion. I guess in the moment you don't think about it. I mean, if your internal clock isn't exactly right and you pass and the buzzer goes off, you're a goat. Even though Jenkins is a better long range shooter (barely) and shoots them more often, an awful lot of players would have shot.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
In thinking about it again, I can't believe he passed. What an amazing assist. Ball in your hands, chance to take the shot you've dreamed about your whole life, and it sounds as though the play was one where he had discretion. I guess in the moment you don't think about it. I mean, if your internal clock isn't exactly right and you pass and the buzzer goes off, you're a goat. Even though Jenkins is a better long range shooter (barely) and shoots them more often, an awful lot of players would have shot.
Yup. The value of having a 4 year senior handle the ball at a crucial moment. Plenty of kids would have forced up a horrible shot. Shit, plenty of pros would have as well.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,299
AZ
Just looked at the box score. Only Nova's 6th assist of the game too. I'm not quite sure how that can be, but there it is.

The box score is actually pretty fascinating.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,582
NOVA
The primary responsibility in that situation is to stop the ball which was effectively done by having an on-ball defender pick up in the backcourt and then he got help from the screener's defender when the screener didn't roll thereby making himself a non-threat. The fact that Wright also used a non-3-point threat to screen there was a boon for Williams and it really became the only shot they had at defending that three when they left Jenkins completely unguarded for the entire possession. The second responsibility is no paint or no lane, which can be done of course without leaving a 38% 3-pt shooter wide open. I assume Jenkins is closer to 50% as a shooter beyond the arc when left unguarded. I don't know a coach in 2016 who'd want to give up a 50/50 3-pointer vs. a contested shot near the top of the key (even if it ends up being 5-8 feet closer). I assume it was more poor execution. I can't imagine Williams was content to give up an open three.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
I think 2008 Kansas/Memphis was better, two #1 seeds with six or seven future NBA players between them including the #1 pick and future MVP Derrick Rose, and a game that went to OT after a sick Chalmers 3 to tie it before Kansas pulled away in OT.

This one was almost certainly top 3 or 5, though.
Either posters are too young to have absorbed it or too old to retain it but there was like a 8 year stretch in the 80's and early 90's(?) where nearly every Championship Game was at the time considered the greatest championship game ever. I have no dogs in either fight but last night to me maybe is a borderline Top-5.

* Michigan's Rumeal Robinson OT game over Seton Hall
* UNC's Michael Jordan game winner after Georgetown's Fred Brown inadvertently passed to Worthy.
* Indiana's Keith Smart game winner over Syracuse (I was in New Orleans in the 10th row for that shot after Cuse beat my Pitino-led Friars)
* The Villanova upset over Ewing and the Hoyas.
* Valvano's NC State upset over Phi Slama Jamma on the Lorenzo Charles dunk off Whittenburgs 35 foot heave.
* Scottie Thurman's game winner over Duke


I can accept bumping last nights game into the bottom tier of these 6 games but not past many of them.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Either posters are too young to have absorbed it or too old to retain it but there was like a 8 year stretch in the 80's and early 90's(?) where nearly every Championship Game was at the time considered the greatest championship game ever. I have no dogs in either fight but last night to me maybe is a borderline Top-5.

* Michigan's Rumeal Robinson OT game over Seton Hall
* UNC's Michael Jordan game winner after Georgetown's Fred Brown inadvertently passed to Worthy.
* Indiana's Keith Smart game winner over Syracuse (I was in New Orleans in the 10th row for that shot after Cuse beat my Pitino-led Friars)
* The Villanova upset over Ewing and the Hoyas.
* Valvano's NC State upset over Phi Slama Jamma on the Lorenzo Charles dunk off Whittenburgs 35 foot heave.
* Scottie Thurman's game winner over Duke

I can accept bumping last nights game into the bottom tier of these 6 games but not past many of them.
It depends on the standard by which you judge.

If the present-day UNC team traveled back in time and played the way they did last night, they would won at least five of those six games (the exception being the 1982 final -- not an exceptionally well-played game, but the talent on both teams was mind-blowing). The result of last night's game was not as dramatic as NCST over Houston or Villanova over Georgetown, but those games are memorable in part because the heavy favorite laid an egg. Last night's quality of play, by both teams, was much better.

Taking into account both the quality of play and the level of drama, you can definitely make a case for last night's game as the best championship game in my lifetime.
 

Greg29fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
20,487
NC
Either posters are too young to have absorbed it or too old to retain it but there was like a 8 year stretch in the 80's and early 90's(?) where nearly every Championship Game was at the time considered the greatest championship game ever. I have no dogs in either fight but last night to me maybe is a borderline Top-5.

* Michigan's Rumeal Robinson OT game over Seton Hall
* UNC's Michael Jordan game winner after Georgetown's Fred Brown inadvertently passed to Worthy.
* Indiana's Keith Smart game winner over Syracuse (I was in New Orleans in the 10th row for that shot after Cuse beat my Pitino-led Friars)
* The Villanova upset over Ewing and the Hoyas.
* Valvano's NC State upset over Phi Slama Jamma on the Lorenzo Charles dunk off Whittenburgs 35 foot heave.
* Scottie Thurman's game winner over Duke


I can accept bumping last nights game into the bottom tier of these 6 games but not past many of them.
MJ's game winner was before Fred Brown's throwaway
 

CoRP

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2007
9,457
The Epicenter
Either posters are too young to have absorbed it or too old to retain it but there was like a 8 year stretch in the 80's and early 90's(?) where nearly every Championship Game was at the time considered the greatest championship game ever. I have no dogs in either fight but last night to me maybe is a borderline Top-5.

* Michigan's Rumeal Robinson OT game over Seton Hall
* UNC's Michael Jordan game winner after Georgetown's Fred Brown inadvertently passed to Worthy.
* Indiana's Keith Smart game winner over Syracuse (I was in New Orleans in the 10th row for that shot after Cuse beat my Pitino-led Friars)
* The Villanova upset over Ewing and the Hoyas.
* Valvano's NC State upset over Phi Slama Jamma on the Lorenzo Charles dunk off Whittenburgs 35 foot heave.
* Scottie Thurman's game winner over Duke


I can accept bumping last nights game into the bottom tier of these 6 games but not past many of them.
Which of those had a ball in the air with no time left on the clock?
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,745
Taking into account both the quality of play and the level of drama, you can definitely make a case for last night's game as the best championship game in my lifetime.
The quality of play is why I cited Kansas/Memphis, with six or seven eventual NBA players between the two teams including the #1 pick in Rose. The highest rated player in last night's game on Chad Ford's board is Brice Johnson at #29, and that is in a horrible draft year.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,745
Either posters are too young to have absorbed it or too old to retain it but there was like a 8 year stretch in the 80's and early 90's(?) where nearly every Championship Game was at the time considered the greatest championship game ever. I have no dogs in either fight but last night to me maybe is a borderline Top-5.

* Michigan's Rumeal Robinson OT game over Seton Hall
* UNC's Michael Jordan game winner after Georgetown's Fred Brown inadvertently passed to Worthy.
* Indiana's Keith Smart game winner over Syracuse (I was in New Orleans in the 10th row for that shot after Cuse beat my Pitino-led Friars)
* The Villanova upset over Ewing and the Hoyas.
* Valvano's NC State upset over Phi Slama Jamma on the Lorenzo Charles dunk off Whittenburgs 35 foot heave.
* Scottie Thurman's game winner over Duke
I am old enough to have seen all of those live, and very few of them featured two great teams playing very well. They were all obviously exceedingly close, but too often people (not saying you) confuse close games with great games. Last night IMO was a really good college game, even if it lacked top level future NBA-level talent. I'd also put it ahead of most of the games listed above, but I'm still voting for Memphis/Kansas unless someone reminds me of a better one.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,672
I really liked the Arizona-Kentucky game, especially the last six or so minutes of regulation.
 

gingerbreadmann

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2008
750
16-0 run for Syracuse in the second half, no one saw that coming... Of course after the 16-0 run they were still down by 17 but for a brief spell UConn looked unusually mortal. That was probably the extent of the drama we'll see tonight.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,745
Yeah, Syracuse women went on a run like Syracuse men did against Virginia, but the problem was they needed two of those in a row. :)

Big congrats to UConn women, first NCAA basketball class to win four titles, men or women (when UCLA did it, freshmen weren't eligible, so they all got three each).
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,393
I kind of want to see Morgan Tuck stick around for a fifth year at UConn. She redshirted due to injury, but still got a ring. So if she stays and they win it again (she would be one of the premier players in the country, and they'd have a very good chance at it), she'd finish her career with FIVE national championships. Obviously an all-time record that will never be broken, and almost certainly never even tied, by any collegiate athlete in any sport ever. She would stand alone in the history of the NCAA. Which would be pretty cool.

I think she leaves though, because she has balky knees and she may feel like she needs to leave and start making money playing hoops while she still can. They don't make much in the WNBA but she'll rake it in overseas.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,393
By the way, the United States could have as its Olympic Women's Basketball team players only from UConn, and they'd still win gold:

G - Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, Moriah Jefferson, Tiffany Hayes, Bria Hartley
F - Maya Moore, Swin Cash, Breanna Stewart, Kia Stokes, Morgan Tuck
C - Tina Charles, Stephanie Dolson

That group features three of the greatest college players of all time (Taurasi, Moore, and Stewart), two of the best players in the world right now (Taurasi and Moore), major stars in Bird and Charles, future stars in Jefferson and Stewart (and maybe Tuck), and solid players in Hayes, Hartley, Cash, and Stokes.

Just an unbelievable amount of talent has gone through Storrs, CT.
 
Dec 21, 2015
1,410
I would buy tickets to watch this year's UConn team play against a good D3 men's team, a middling D2 team, or a bottom-barrel D1 team. They might win the first two, and the third would be entertaining enough it wouldn't matter that they'd lose by 20.
 

CoRP

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2007
9,457
The Epicenter
The quality of play is why I cited Kansas/Memphis, with six or seven eventual NBA players between the two teams including the #1 pick in Rose. The highest rated player in last night's game on Chad Ford's board is Brice Johnson at #29, and that is in a horrible draft year.
Likewise one cannot enjoy watching the NBA Finals because none of those players will every play in a better league than the NBA when they leave the NBA.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,745
Yeah, that's exactly the same thing, and as you made quite clear, you're not biased at all.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,393
I would buy tickets to watch this year's UConn team play against a good D3 men's team, a middling D2 team, or a bottom-barrel D1 team. They might win the first two, and the third would be entertaining enough it wouldn't matter that they'd lose by 20.
I'm a big fan of good women basketball. But the UConn women, as great as they are, would get absolutely pounded by a good D3 men's team. They'd get beat by a bottom barrel D1 team by 60-80 points minimum. It would not be close.

To give you some idea...they practice against men's practice players, a group of guys who used to play high school ball but who are good, but who aren't good enough to play in college (maybe some of them could play D3). These guys are told by the UConn coaches that they can't play all-out. If they did, they would beat the women's team handily every practice.

It's just a completely different animal.

And I say that as someone who knows that people like Breanna Stewart are really, REALLY good.
 
Dec 21, 2015
1,410
I remember reading somewhere that a california D2 team was retained in their offseason to practice against the USA Basketball women's team a few years ago, and that at first they took it light and playfully, but then realized "these girls can ball!", and by the end of the practice were absolutely going balls-to-the-wall to make sure the women didn't beat them, in which I believe they succeeded. I wish I could find the article that described the event.

I did find one D3 coach who thinks his team would lose unless it got a full roster of scholarship players, which at the time it didn't.

edit: I'm not sure this Grantland article is it, but it does have some choice quotes...
A team of men in USA jerseys surrounds the court as the women practice. They are former college players from schools in the Pacific Northwest and usually convene as a practice squad against the WNBA’s Seattle Storm. They are called on to run some offensive and defensive sets against the women. “The first time I played against them, I thought I could do whatever,” says Marlon Bailey, a 6-foot-5 guard who played at Edmonds Community College. “Nope. They’re that good.” To drive the point home, all 6-foot-6 of Sylvia Fowles nearly eviscerates one of the men on the first possession with a hearty, solid screen.
Maybe they'd want to start with lesser competition, but if they'd like to do a for-charity victory tour against some low-end D3 or D2 men's teams, I'm sure as shit watching, if not buying tickets.
 
Last edited:

CoRP

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2007
9,457
The Epicenter
Yeah, that's exactly the same thing, and as you made quite clear, you're not biased at all.
http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/articles/greatest_title_games_in_ncaa_basketball_history/s1_13132_20624080
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball-news/4700887-villanova-vs-north-carolina-unc-greatest-national-championship-game-ever
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/04/villanova-unc-tops-the-list-of-the-10-best-ncaa-championship-games-ever
Oddly no mention of number of players that went on to play in the NBA as a determining factor for any of these rankings. But, like the ManilaMetric(R), your criterion is likely just way ahead of it's time.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,393
I remember reading somewhere that a california D2 team was retained in their offseason to practice against the USA Basketball women's team a few years ago, and that at first they took it light and playfully, but then realized "these girls can ball!", and by the end of the practice were absolutely going balls-to-the-wall to make sure the women didn't beat them, in which I believe they succeeded. I wish I could find the article that described the event.

I did find one D3 coach who thinks his team would lose unless it got a full roster of scholarship players, which at the time it didn't.

edit: I'm not sure this Grantland article is it, but it does have some choice quotes...


Maybe they'd want to start with lesser competition, but if they'd like to do a for-charity victory tour against some low-end D3 or D2 men's teams, I'm sure as shit watching, if not buying tickets.
Yeah that would be fun. I have played against some of the best women's players personally and I can tell you they're really good. But consider this college - Endicott College, who finished first in their D3 conference. Not the best D3 team in the country, but a pretty good one. I saw them play twice this year and they have three players who would have their way with UConn. Their point guard is as quick as Jefferson, but he's three inches taller and about 50 pounds heavier, and would kill her. Their center is 6'7" and outweighs Stewart by about 40 pounds and would dunk right over her. He's skilled too. They could run out a front line of 6'7", 6'6", and 6'5", so their 6'5" player would have to be guarded by a UConn player 5 inches and 50 pounds smaller.

UConn is amazing, for real. It's just a completely different game.

But yeah, I'd love to watch that happen.
 

DanoooME

above replacement level
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2008
19,831
Henderson, NV
Not that it's the same level, but my senior year of HS, the 27-1 USA Today national ranked girls team challenged the 1-19 boys team to a secret scrimmage and the girls wiped the floor with them by 20+. I only know because I was friends with the 6th man on that team and he was just incredulous they got stomped like that.