Mookie Betts appreciation thread

[sean1562]

yea trout has hit the level where he has to be so far better than everyone else in a current year to get an MVP anymore. He should probably have 3 already and was only out of the race last year bc he was hurt. Sorry I know this is a Mookie fest but if you dont think Trout is exciting to watch maybe you should watch more Angels games, the guy is amazing.

Mookie, however, is on a HoF path himself and I would love for him to be on it for the entirety of his career, in a Red Sox uniform. I understand we aren't going to sign every one of these guys, but Betts is head and shoulders above the rest. Really excited to see what Devers and Benintendi can do, but I imagine Benintendi is a player that will play out his contract here and go elsewhere, considering the skillset he has demonstrated so far has not proven to be all that unique. I would hate to see Mookie Betts in another uniform. If we can waste 40 mil a year on Hanley Ramirez and Pablo Sandoval, we should be able to spend 30+ mil on this guy when he hits FA. Let him be the face of the franchise through 2030.

 

[InsideTheParker]

Is this the thread to check for the status of Markus Lynn's shoulder and numb arm and hand?

 

[Pitt the Elder]

Yeah it's pretty much all this, I think. I have very little doubt that if Trout were on the Yankees he would be far and away the most talked-about, recognizable baseball personality.

Does he have a personality? I don't mean to be glib, but I honestly don't know much about him beyond his stats. Mookie has tons of interesting narrative points...fun guy, great smile, bowls perfect games, and is 5-9. Judge is a hulking monster, which is all he really needs. They're both made for WWE style storylines.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Is this the thread to check for the status of Markus Lynn's shoulder and numb arm and hand?

Cora has already announced that he is expected to play tomorrow.

 

[shaggydog2000]

Does he have a personality? I don't mean to be glib, but I honestly don't know much about him beyond his stats. Mookie has tons of interesting narrative points...fun guy, great smile, bowls perfect games, and is 5-9. Judge is a hulking monster, which is all he really needs. They're both made for WWE style storylines.

The only things I know about Mike Trout is that he looks like a farm boy and eats at a Subway sometimes.

(Oh, and he's really good at baseball.)

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

I sort of feel you on this. I wouldn't go so far as to say Trout is "overrated" but he's a lot like LeBron for me. Yeah, they're great, but given their perfect, freakish physiques they sort of should be that good (or at least it makes their floors super high). I just don't get "excited" to watch either of them. I prefer underdog stories and a guy being about as good as they should be just doesn't get me going. Trout's is also a bit nondescript, like one of the generic minor leaguers in The Show.

I'd rather watch Mookie any day of the week over Trout, irrespective of their numbers.

Gabe Kapler has a freakish, perfect physique and he sucked. Not sure what that has to do with it.

I’d watch either of Trout or Mookie play every day. They are both incredibly fun to watch.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Michael has a lovely smile, for the record.

 

[Al Zarilla]

The only things I know about Mike Trout is that he looks like a farm boy and eats at a Subway sometimes.

(Oh, and he's really good at baseball.)

Subway! He trusts the kids that work there to wash their hands? Ah, could happen anywhere.

He should start his own TB12 type thing but not so austere. Don't trust Subway on a superstar in any case.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

And there was even this guy in San Diego that people argue might be the greatest hitter of all time. Tony something.

For singles hitters, sure, but I can't imagine he'd even crack the top 50 of the best hitters in baseball history.

 

[LoweTek]

Michael has a lovely smile, for the record.

And he does that Elvis upper lip snarl thing really well!

 

[DanoooME]

Seriously, Trout is so damn consistent, his MVP seasons are just average by his standards. He is the best player of the current generation, by far.

View attachment 20899

Look at those K/BB numbers improve from 2014 to now. Scary good to cut your K rate by about a third in 3 years.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Does he have a personality? I don't mean to be glib, but I honestly don't know much about him beyond his stats. Mookie has tons of interesting narrative points...fun guy, great smile, bowls perfect games, and is 5-9. Judge is a hulking monster, which is all he really needs. They're both made for WWE style storylines.

Did Jeter have a personality? If you are really good and play in Boston or New York (and maybe the Cubs to a lesser degree?) you are in the running for "face of baseball" regardless of your personality. I do agree it certainly doesn't hurt things that Mookie especially, but Judge also to some extent, appear to be much more interesting people. Judge is also benefited by having a name that easily lends itself to nicknames, chants and memes.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

For singles hitters, sure, but I can't imagine he'd even crack the top 50 of the best hitters in baseball history.

How are you defining "best" for your list? Power hitters? Because outside of HR power, he has a very strong case for a top 50 list.

3141 hits, .338/.388/.459/.847, 132 OPS+
18th all time in career BA
19th all time in career hits
35th all time in career doubles
8 NL batting titles

 

[InsideTheParker]

Cora has already announced that he is expected to play tomorrow.

Thanks. I missed that. And, Yay!

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

How are you defining "best" for your list? Power hitters? Because outside of HR power, he has a very strong case for a top 50 list.

3141 hits, .338/.388/.459/.847, 132 OPS+
18th all time in career BA
19th all time in career hits
35th all time in career doubles
8 NL batting titles

But saying "best hitter outside of HR power" carries a pretty huge asterisk with it, because HR power is a big part of what makes a great hitter. It's not the only part, but if you're not good at it, you need to be exceptionally good at everything else.

By wRC+, which I think is as good a stat as we have to describe overall hitting skill, Gwynn ranks 116th out of 998 hitters with 5000+ PA. If you raise the bar to 10,000+ PA, he ranks 34th out of 85. He was a very good hitter, but he was not really one of the best hitters ever, unless you're talking about a very big tent. (Hitters who rank ahead of him in wRC+ on that 5,000 PA list include, for instance, Boog Powell, Matt Holliday and Danny Tartabull.)

 

[reggiecleveland]

I sort of feel you on this. I wouldn't go so far as to say Trout is "overrated" but he's a lot like LeBron for me. Yeah, they're great, but given their perfect, freakish physiques they sort of should be that good (or at least it makes their floors super high). I just don't get "excited" to watch either of them. I prefer underdog stories and a guy being about as good as they should be just doesn't get me going. Trout's is also a bit nondescript, like one of the generic minor leaguers in The Show.

I'd rather watch Mookie any day of the week over Trout, irrespective of their numbers.

I am going to guess you are under six feet tall. Just a guess.

The idea anybody is preordained success, let alone dominance, at the pro level, because of genetics undervalues what these people can do and what they did to get there.

If you can't appreciate what those two guys do, I feel sorry for you.

Trout had a crazy walk rate, I doubt his biceps help with that.

What Lebron has accomplished shows character above and beyond almost any other athlete I can think of. He has been famous since he was 14 years old. He has been taking on the best people could throw at him for 20 years. For three years in High School and the start of his NBA career he was a kid competing against men. Lesser people would have collapsed under the pressure.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Riddle me this - those who understand how WAR is calculated:

Mike Trout: 3.1
Mookie Betts: 2.6

Betts has better stats: Runs, Doubles, HR, RBI, K-Rate, Average, Slugging, OPS

(Trout better: SB's, BB's and OBP)

Betts has been playing Gold Glove RF.

Why such a huge lead by Trout?

 

[Reverend]

Riddle me this - those who understand how WAR is calculated:

Mike Trout: 3.1
Mookie Betts: 2.6

Betts has better stats: Runs, Doubles, HR, RBI, K-Rate, Average, Slugging, OPS

(Trout better: SB's, BB's and OBP)

Betts has been playing Gold Glove RF.

Why such a huge lead by Trout?

I appreciate your consideration in indicating you are looking for help, so let's start basic:

Which WAR is that? FanGraphs (fWAR) or Baseball Reference (bWAR)?

 

[geoduck no quahog]

I think ESPN uses bWAR...

 

[Reverend]

I think ESPN uses bWAR...

Ideally, with either one of them, you try to figure out the offensive and defensive components.

Basically, WAR for hitting is calculated using "linear weights" to use the large data set of all hitting outcomes disaggregated by situation (on base, outs) to find out the average expected value of each situation and then comparing what the player did in each situation. So it's a counting stat compared to a large n data sample to assess how much better (or worse) a player is doing in each at bat by situation. It's a pretty cool, robust approach.

Defensive WAR is calculated largely based on judgement of individual players getting balls in their zone without application of knowledge of how the defense is playing, if the fielders have overlapping zones and are playing "help defense," may not differentiate properly between laying out or not or who's playing next to him or whatever, and, perhaps most significantly for this exercise, doesn't normalize for like three years, by which the player may not even be the same fielder due to the passage of time.

Then there's stuff like baserunning component or something...

tl;dr WAR is more than one stat of differing utility smushed together because there is a demand for a single basic unified number of evaluation even if it isn't correct.

 

[Pitt the Elder]

WAR is a counting stat and Trout has played 4 more games and has had 26 more PAs than Betts

 

[Curt S Loew]

Judge is also benefited by having a name that easily lends itself to nicknames, chants and memes.

He's also ten feet tall and hits monster home runs.

 

[Reverend]

He's also ten feet tall and hits monster home runs.

 

[uncannymanny]

I was going to quote individual posts but I’ll just say I didn’t know who I, personally, like to watch play baseball was up for debate, nor did I disparage Mike Trout’s greatness at baseball. Jesus.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Riddle me this - those who understand how WAR is calculated:

Mike Trout: 3.1
Mookie Betts: 2.6

Betts has better stats: Runs, Doubles, HR, RBI, K-Rate, Average, Slugging, OPS

(Trout better: SB's, BB's and OBP)

Betts has been playing Gold Glove RF.

Why such a huge lead by Trout?

Opportunity, baserunning, and position.

Trout has had about 20% more PA and defensive innings than Betts so far. So if they were playing at exactly the same level you'd expect Trout's WAR to be about 20% higher--which it is.

Also, both FG and BBref's systems give Trout credit for a bit more baserunning value so far, and of course CF has a positional advantage over RF that's worth a few tenths of a win by this point in the year.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

I was going to quote individual posts but I’ll just say I didn’t know who I, personally, like to watch play baseball was up for debate, nor did I disparage Mike Trout’s greatness at baseball. Jesus.

When you throw an opinion out there that the best player in the game is "boring" (to whatever degree,) you're going to get trashed on, and rightfully so. Acting all exasperated about it is unreasonable. Don't like your opinion getting dissected, then don't post it.

 

[Reverend]

Opportunity, baserunning, and position.

Trout has had about 20% more PA and defensive innings than Betts so far. So if they were playing at exactly the same level you'd expect Trout's WAR to be about 20% higher--which it is.

Also, both FG and BBref's systems give Trout credit for a bit more baserunning value so far, and of course CF has a positional advantage over RF that's worth a few tenths of a win by this point in the year.

...and Betts plays right only because they have a better CF, so that's an assessment of value to team that is different from personal ability.

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

But saying "best hitter outside of HR power" carries a pretty huge asterisk with it, because HR power is a big part of what makes a great hitter. It's not the only part, but if you're not good at it, you need to be exceptionally good at everything else.

By wRC+, which I think is as good a stat as we have to describe overall hitting skill, Gwynn ranks 116th out of 998 hitters with 5000+ PA. If you raise the bar to 10,000+ PA, he ranks 34th out of 85. He was a very good hitter, but he was not really one of the best hitters ever, unless you're talking about a very big tent. (Hitters who rank ahead of him in wRC+ on that 5,000 PA list include, for instance, Boog Powell, Matt Holliday and Danny Tartabull.)

OK... sorry guys. I think I was remembering his farewell season and the announcers etc. I just came up with 10-20 West Coast iconic ball players off the top of my head and out of many third choices... I remembered Gwynn. Sloppy of me to add any GOAT argument.

He was a great hitter... really great. And the best known Padre by far. In some ways better known then Trout... at least as well.

 

[Max Power]

Seriously, Trout is so damn consistent, his MVP seasons are just average by his standards. He is the best player of the current generation, by far.

View attachment 20899

His consistency actually makes him seem less impressive overall. Every year he has an OPS+ between 168 and 187, which is great, but still not even in the top 100 seasons of all time. If he had a couple over 200 mixed in with some 150s, I feel like he'd be looked at as a guy whose true talent level was in the upper range of that rather than the average.

 

[uncannymanny]

When you throw an opinion out there that the best player in the game is "boring" (to whatever degree,) you're going to get trashed on, and rightfully so. Acting all exasperated about it is unreasonable. Don't like your opinion getting dissected, then don't post it.

If it had been characterized correctly that would be one thing, but next time I’ll fall in line with whatever opinion I’m supposed to have about a baseball player.

 

[nighthob]

He's also ten feet tall and hits monster home runs.

And if he were here he would consume the Red Sox with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse.

 

[Van Everyman]

Just came here to post this and say, we’ll, of course he is:

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Just came here to post this and say, we’ll, of course he is:

Marquess Lynn Betts?

 

[Adrian's Dome]

If it had been characterized correctly that would be one thing, but next time I’ll fall in line with whatever opinion I’m supposed to have about a baseball player.

This is you being exasperated, and once again it's the wrong response.

I shouldn't have to point this out, but just because something is opinion-based doesn't mean it's free and clear of being criticized.

 

[Saints Rest]

Marquess Lynn Betts?

I'm going with Dukie Mookie.

 

[Detts]

Fuck duke

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I'm going with Dukie Mookie.

Count Mooku?

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Count Mooku?

Blah

 

[uncannymanny]

This is you being exasperated, and once again it's the wrong response.

I shouldn't have to point this out, but just because something is opinion-based doesn't mean it's free and clear of being criticized.

Dude, I’m not exasperated. You seem to care a lot more than I do. Is your argument that I don’t actually feel that way? At least you didn’t attack me personally or make up some nonsense that I said all guys with biceps are amazing at baseball, I’ll give you that. If you want to discuss further feel free to DM me instead of wasting space here.

 

[montoursvillefan]

Ms Markle also has blood connection to the folks (red necks) in white as snow Perry (purry as pronounced by the locals) County Pennsylvania. Thus, Mookie is a flatlander/ridgerunner in my world. Great roots! (Carry on...)

 

[Cesar Crespo]

OK... sorry guys. I think I was remembering his farewell season and the announcers etc. I just came up with 10-20 West Coast iconic ball players off the top of my head and out of many third choices... I remembered Gwynn. Sloppy of me to add any GOAT argument.

He was a great hitter... really great. And the best known Padre by far. In some ways better known then Trout... at least as well.

I've heard a few people make the argument for Tony Gwynn but it's been a good 15+ years since I last heard it. it was mostly people fixated on batting average and little else. Rickey Henderson has some support too, from people fixated on other things.

edit: Actually, for a few years, Rickey Henderson probably has a claim as the face of baseball for his time in Oakland. The SB record was a big deal and Rickey Henderson isn't lacking in personality.

 

[mauidano]

Nice little piece on MLB.com with Mookie's mom for Mother's Day. Mookie was a cute little rascal.
https://www.mlb.com/video/diana-collins-is-an-all-star-mom/c-2024868283?tid=220377390

 

[keninten]

Mookie gave all the Van Buren County High School team about an 1 1/2 hours east of Nashville autographed Boston caps. Don`t know what the connection is over here but really cool anyways.

 

[shaggydog2000]

Mookie gave all the Van Buren County High School team about an 1 1/2 hours east of Nashville autographed Boston caps. Don`t know what the connection is over here but really cool anyways.

Mookie would always go as Martin Van Buren on President's Day? That's a thing, my dad didn't just make that up when I was a kid, right?

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I think this sums up Mookie's 2018 so far as well as anything: today he went 2 for 4 with a walk, and his wOBA went down.

 

[lapa]

I think this sums up Mookie's 2018 so far as well as anything: today he went 2 for 4 with a walk, and his wOBA went down.

and 2 stolen bases and a 5 star golden glove All Star sliding catch.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Nice little piece on MLB.com with Mookie's mom for Mother's Day. Mookie was a cute little rascal.
https://www.mlb.com/video/diana-collins-is-an-all-star-mom/c-2024868283?tid=220377390

8 year-old Mookie has better handwriting than most of my co-workers... just another thing he does well.

 

[EllisTheRimMan]

and 2 stolen bases and a 5 star golden glove All Star sliding catch.

And he stuck the landing! Perfect score from the Canadian judge on that catch.

 

[Dan Murfman]

Saturday I was watching down at the bar. They also had some bowling event on ESPN. He got a double and then I looked over at the bowling and there he was throwing a strike.

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

Saturday I was watching down at the bar. They also had some bowling event on ESPN. He got a double and then I looked over at the bowling and there he was throwing a strike.

I happened to see that.