May MLB Game Thread

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Bergs

Bergs

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Average Reds said:
As a matter of logic, this is preposterous. Odor hit Bautista before he even made a fist. That's not self-defense, that assault.
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I don't know how many fights you've seen or been in, but Joey has absolutely engaged in an attack posture and is the midst of what appears to my eyes (and likely Odor's) as a right hook. "before he made a fist" is completely irrelevant. In a well-executed punch, the fist doesn't truly close until impact or right before (depends on who you ask). His legs, hips, shoulder, and arm were engaging in what appears to be a punch. I don't have super-powers, so I'm not 100% Joey would have finished the punch, but saying that it's "preposterous" is overselling your case by a fair margin.

Those of you defending the disparity in punishment (and for the record, my interest is purely academic. I don't hate Bautista beyond the laundry, and have never given Odor much thought) seem to be doing so based on the question of differences in degree vs. kind. Odor landing a punch isn't a difference in kind to me, but in degree. Reasonable minds obviously disagree, and Marciano's post is a well-reasoned example of just that..
 
rembrat

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Soxfan in Fla said:
Odor gives him a hard 2 handed shove to the chest. Joey Bats steps his feet into a position to possibly throw a punch but gets his clock cleaned before he ever has a chance to ball his fist.
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That's debatable. Bautista getting his feet under himself and raising his arms is a natural reaction to being checked.
 
Average Reds

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rembrat said:
That's debatable. Bautista getting his feet under himself and raising his arms is a natural reaction to being checked.
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Precisely. Those who claim that Bautista was taking an "attack posture" are missing the fact that he was reacting to being pushed. And then, before he could do anything, he was punched.

In the real world, people don't get punished for what they might have done. They are punished for what they do. Bautista was punished for his slide and the comments he made after the game that confirmed the intent behind the slide. Odor was punished for actually throwing a punch.

If people want to argue that Odor's punishment was too severe based in the punch landing, that's a different argument. But he deserves a greater punishment that Bautista because he was the only one to throw a punch. Period.
 
Bergs

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Average Reds said:
Precisely. Those who claim that Bautista was taking an "attack posture" are missing the fact that he was reacting to being pushed. And then, before he could do anything, he was punched..
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I don't think I'm missing that at all. He reacted to being pushed by preparing to throw a punch (I think). Odor landed one first. More completely, Texas reacted to the bat flip by drilling Joey, Joey reacted to getting drilled with an illegal and moderately dangerous slide into Odor, Odor reacted to the illegal and moderately dangerous slide by shoving Joey, Joey reacted to getting shoved with an attack posture, and Odor was already ready to flail away if that happened.

In the real world, people don't get punished for what they might have done. They are punished for what they do. Bautista was punished for his slide and the comments he made after the game that confirmed the intent behind the slide. Odor was punished for actually throwing a punch.
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In the real world, people frequently get punished for what they plan to do. "Conspiracy to...". In the real world, Joey Bats got punished for planning to punch Odor by getting blasted in the face. Put another way, had Joey just spun off the push and put his arms out in a "what the fuck, dude" pose, do you think Odor would have blasted him? I don't, personally, but I haven't asked him. That said, if Joey did react in a "what the fuck dude" posture and Odor blasted him anyway, 8 games would be way too LITTLE a suspension, IMO. That would clearly rise to the level of assault you and others are claiming was risen to with what actually occured.

If people want to argue that Odor's punishment was too severe based in the punch landing, that's a different argument. But he deserves a greater punishment that Bautista because he was the only one to throw a punch. Period.
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That is a reasonable belief apart from the "Period" which I believe can be reasonably disagreed with on principle.
 
Average Reds

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Please show an example of when there was a fight that essentially ended with a single punch where the punishment to the two players was the same.

You can make whatever argument you want based on whatever principle you want, but it can only be considered reasonable if there is evidence that the principle in question is relevant. And if you can't find even a single example to support your position, I'd argue that your position is not based on a principle that is relevant.
 
Marciano490

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Bergs said:
I don't know how many fights you've seen or been in, but Joey has absolutely engaged in an attack posture and is the midst of what appears to my eyes (and likely Odor's) as a right hook. "before he made a fist" is completely irrelevant. In a well-executed punch, the fist doesn't truly close until impact or right before (depends on who you ask). His legs, hips, shoulder, and arm were engaging in what appears to be a punch. I don't have super-powers, so I'm not 100% Joey would have finished the punch, but saying that it's "preposterous" is overselling your case by a fair margin.

Those of you defending the disparity in punishment (and for the record, my interest is purely academic. I don't hate Bautista beyond the laundry, and have never given Odor much thought) seem to be doing so based on the question of differences in degree vs. kind. Odor landing a punch isn't a difference in kind to me, but in degree. Reasonable minds obviously disagree, and Marciano's post is a well-reasoned example of just that..
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This is for people with a ton of experience who are really really good at it and have their timing and range down, and even then a lot of people will tell you it's stupid. Yeah, Dempsey and others claim you get a little more oomph on the punch by balling your fist at the last second, but you're up against a live person, not a bag or wall, and if they step into the punch or block it with an forearm or shoulder roll while your hand is still balling, you're screwed.

Bergs said:
I don't think I'm missing that at all. He reacted to being pushed by preparing to throw a punch (I think). Odor landed one first. More completely, Texas reacted to the bat flip by drilling Joey, Joey reacted to getting drilled with an illegal and moderately dangerous slide into Odor, Odor reacted to the illegal and moderately dangerous slide by shoving Joey, Joey reacted to getting shoved with an attack posture, and Odor was already ready to flail away if that happened.



In the real world, people frequently get punished for what they plan to do. "Conspiracy to...". In the real world, Joey Bats got punished for planning to punch Odor by getting blasted in the face. Put another way, had Joey just spun off the push and put his arms out in a "what the fuck, dude" pose, do you think Odor would have blasted him? I don't, personally, but I haven't asked him. That said, if Joey did react in a "what the fuck dude" posture and Odor blasted him anyway, 8 games would be way too LITTLE a suspension, IMO. That would clearly rise to the level of assault you and others are claiming was risen to with what actually occured.


That is a reasonable belief apart from the "Period" which I believe can be reasonably disagreed with on principle.
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Yes, they get punished, but not as severely. I think you mean attempt and not conspiracy. Conspiracy is a theory of vicarious liability, no? We both planned to rob the bank, you robbed the bank or attempted to rob the bank, and even though I didn't partake in the actual act, I helped plan it so I'm equally guilty. You mean attempt, which, true, is also punished, but not to the same extent as successful completion of a crime. See murder vs. attempted murder.

The guy squared up and made a fist. Yes, it seems menacing, but as a former bouncer I'd say that if that was enough to commit a crime or indicate a fight was actually about to go down, half the college kids in Boston would have records and my 20s would've been a lot more fun.
 
Bergs

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Marciano490 said:
This is for people with a ton of experience who are really really good at it and have their timing and range down, and even then a lot of people will tell you it's stupid. Yeah, Dempsey and others claim you get a little more oomph on the punch by balling your fist at the last second, but you're up against a live person, not a bag or wall, and if they step into the punch or block it with an forearm or shoulder roll while your hand is still balling, you're screwed.
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I get that, but I think you'd agree that the fist clench generally isn't the first thing that happens in the overall delivery, which was more the point I was trying to make in this instance.

Yes, they get punished, but not as severely. I think you mean attempt and not conspiracy. Conspiracy is a theory of vicarious liability, no? We both planned to rob the bank, you robbed the bank or attempted to rob the bank, and even though I didn't partake in the actual act, I helped plan it so I'm equally guilty. You mean attempt, which, true, is also punished, but not to the same extent as successful completion of a crime. See murder vs. attempted murder.
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What are you, some kinda lawyer or something? (ducks)

The guy squared up and made a fist. Yes, it seems menacing, but as a former bouncer I'd say that if that was enough to commit a crime or indicate a fight was actually about to go down, half the college kids in Boston would have records and my 20s would've been a lot more fun.
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lol. Fair enough.
 
Marciano490

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Bergs said:
I get that, but I think you'd agree that the fist clench generally isn't the first thing that happens in the overall delivery, which was more the point I was trying to make in this instance.
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I absolutely agree. Some people clench first, some do it last minute - whether pros or amateurs. Just another reason why its hard to impute intent or punish based on what we think would've happened.
 
Bergs

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Average Reds said:
You can make whatever argument you want based on whatever principle you want, but it can only be considered reasonable if there is evidence that the principle in question is relevant. And if you can't find even a single example to support your position, I'd argue that your position is not based on a principle that is relevant.
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Perhaps not. I was speaking more to the theoretical than the practical to be sure. I think we all know the "puncher" is going to get more of a punishment in such cases. I was just speculating and opinionating on how fair that is, especially when events unfold in a cascacing fashion as they did in this instance.
 
Bergs

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Marciano490 said:
I absolutely agree. Some people clench first, some do it last minute - whether pros or amateurs. Just another reason why its hard to impute intent or punish based on what we think would've happened.
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Agreed. I would like to get an answer to one question/opinion I posed, though:

Bergs said:
Had Joey just spun off the push and put his arms out in a "what the fuck, dude" pose, do you think Odor would have blasted him? I don't, personally, but I haven't asked him. That said, if Joey did react in a "what the fuck dude" posture and Odor blasted him anyway, 8 games would be way too LITTLE a suspension, IMO. That would clearly rise to the level of assault you and others are claiming was risen to with what actually occured.
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Marciano490

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Maybe. You'd have to be dumb or brave or both, though, to stand with your hands on your hips when someone is squared up with their hands up across from you. The only reason JB didn't go down smooth was because he was in a fighting stance.
 
The Price Is Wrong

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Yeah, I'm willing to agree that Odor might not have followed through with the punch if Bautista reacted with mere indignation after getting violently shoved.

But my sanctimony about the punishment being too light was based on believing that a solid punch to the head is a substantially more dangerous thing to happen to someone than is commonly believed. It's about the act, not the result or the intent. I grew up on the same fighting video games and famous fights on TV as many people now in their 30s, so I know it's easy to believe that the worst that would happen to Bautista is that he'd lose, you know, a few hit points. But I've also seen a gym instructor sparring with a student, connecting with a solid punch when he didn't really mean to, and getting fired. Clearly Odor is not getting "fired". I've seen someone get in a single fight (where they took worse than just one punch to the head, to be fair, but one punch was the highlight), and end up with permanent intermittent seizures as a result.

Brain damage is an occupational hazard in the NFL and (for some players) the NHL. It really shouldn't be in MLB.
 
DanoooME

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Brewers load the bases with no outs in the 12th against the Cubs at home and proceed to go fly out to medium deep CF with 5 infielders (no tag up), pop up, pop up to end the inning.

Cubs will win this game.
 
nvalvo

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Cueto finishes the eighth with a strikeout in SF, and leaves the mound with what looked like a rousing "¡BAM MUCHACHO!"
 
simplicio

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Mariners do a nice job taking a couple from the Orioles, who look to finally be slowing down a bit offensively.

I'd love to see Seattle finally make it back to the playoffs this year too. Hope they can keep this up and not fade down the stretch like they seem to every other year.
 
InsideTheParker

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Gruesome defense and poor pitching by Harvey have put the Nats ahead of the Mets 7-1 in the third! Now 9-1; Harvey out of the game and chorus of boos from the "fans."
 
Pilgrim

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wow, the Jays are doing some pretty odd stuff with their lineup these days. Tonight:

Bautista/Donaldson/EE/Smoak/Saunders/Tulo/Paredes/Martin/Pillar
 
VORP Speed

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Rays up 6-3 on Tigers in the 6th. They've now scored at least 6 runs in 6 straight games and are currently leading MLB in home runs. The supercomputer has clearly told them it's all about the long ball in the current offensive environment. They're towards the bottom of the league in BB and OBP, top in HR and seem to have everybody up at the plate being super aggressive early in counts and swinging for the fences.
 
tbrep

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Rays need Boxberger back ASAP. Cannot rely on any of Webb, Geltz and Eveland. Right now, they only have two guys they can trust to get outs in high leverage situations: team MVP Ramirez and closer Colome
 
BestGameEvah

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Pilgrim said:
wow, the Jays are doing some pretty odd stuff with their lineup these days. Tonight:

Bautista/Donaldson/EE/Smoak/Saunders/Tulo/Paredes/Martin/Pillar
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The inmates are running the asylum!
“I think that’s what teams have to do sometimes, just kind of shuffle the cards a little bit and hope for something to spark and regroup and then see what happens,” said Bautista, who spearheaded the idea of his switch to leadoff.

“I think it’s good for any team when the veteran leadership gets together and comes up with ideas and brings it to the coaches . . . and if they’re in agreement, which I think everybody is at this particular point in time, we need to do something different. And I think sometimes forcing the opposition to change is better, too.”
 
jon abbey

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Only 51 ABs, but Ichiro is hitting .373. Today he was the oldest player to go 4-4 since Rickey Henderson in 2001.
 
jon abbey

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E5 Yaz said:
50 hits shy of 3,000 in MLB
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That's not counting today's, he's actually up to 2954.

Edit: Ha, and an amazing post-game quote I just saw from Jose Fernandez:

"To me, Ichiro is a god," Fernandez said. "What he brings to this team is from another world."
 
BestGameEvah

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LuckyBen said:
No way was he saying something to someone in the stands.
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I agree. Was watching the game and it sure looked like it was directed to ump no matter what Donaldson says today!

"When he went by the home plate umpire he yelled, 'f--- you,'" West said. "So, the home plate umpire ejected him, and understandably so. Donaldson argued, 'I wasn't talking to you.' But at the time that he did it, he was right in (Basner's) direction."

Donaldson admitted that he and Banser had a brief discussion during his at-bat after an unidentified Twins player took umbrage with a called ball in the 30-year-old's favor, and he told Banser to not "allow them to chirp you and then change the zone." This incident didn't appear to play a role in the ejection. via: TheScore
 
jon abbey

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Heh, John Gibbons' week:

Sunday - ejected.
Monday - ejected
Tuesday - suspended
Wednesday - suspended
Thursday - suspended
Sunday - ejected.
 
jon abbey

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canderson said:
Texas swept Houston. Houston may not put it together in time to regain 2015 form.
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Actually they were nothing special for the final 2/3 of 2015, a 34-20 start followed by a 52-56 finish. That means they're closing in on almost a full season of playing like this, this may be their real level.
 
Soxfan in Fla

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Shocking that the ESPN crew don't know a rule.
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They're idiots. I only saw a small but of the game last night. The bit I saw included Duffy making a diving play at 3B and throwing out the runner at 1st. Aaron Boone in all his infinite "wisdom" then says during the replay he thought Duffy made a mistake in leaving his feet. The only way he got it was by leaving his feet and if he doesn't leave his feet it's a pretty tough play for the SS to make. What a buffoon.
 
BamaRedSox

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Gotta like Price's chances against the Rockies. Fivethirtyeight has them at a 70 percent chance with Price as a +26 for pitcher adjustment. Hopefully his last start is a common denominator in the Red Sox upcoming road trip against other AL East teams.
 
E5 Yaz

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Pirates pitcher Ryan Vogelsong hit in the face with a pitch with the bases loaded against the Rockies. Taken off the field, sitting, on a cart. Bloody, not unconscious

 
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