Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

[queenb]

Imo, anyone saying they were hesitant on drafting Fultz because he was a poor shooter is having his unforeseen struggles taint their memory. Maybe there was some hesitancy due to his FT shooting but all I remember is everyone saying he was going to be an above-average shooter.

This is indeed revisionist history. Either there's a flaw you see in the mechanics of his jumper that make it seem unlikely he'll be able to shoot from the floor in the pros -- which I haven't seen articulated here -- or you have to think shooting will be a strength for him. Granted, he only played 25 games, but at 41.3 percent, his 3P% in college was higher than that of Curry (41.2), Klay (39), Lillard (39), Harden (37.6).

 

[zoolight.space]

All we had to go on were numbers though. None of us watched him play. Unless you were a season ticket holder for Washington. They were not on national television. (or television at all?, I do recall a few of the same highlights played on a loop).

Sometimes that works out fine. We didn't have good footage of The Freak or Jaylen Brown (once he forgoed big time college basketball for Cal U.) and both are awesome. Fultz may be more Yi than those two unfortunately. Especially jarring for the Sixers because Ball, Tatum, Smith, Fox ---- all look fantastic. In one of the deepest, most memorable drafts in decades leave it to the Sixers to draft Anthony Bennett 1st overall!

 

[Kliq]

All we had to go on were numbers though. None of us watched him play. Unless you were a season ticket holder for Washington. They were not on national television. (or television at all?, I do recall a few of the same highlights played on a loop).

Sometimes that works out fine. We didn't have good footage of The Freak or Jaylen Brown (once he forgoed big time college basketball for Cal U.) and both are awesome. Fultz may be more Yi than those two unfortunately. Especially jarring for the Sixers because Ball, Tatum, Smith, Fox ---- all look fantastic. In one of the deepest, most memorable drafts in decades leave it to the Sixers to draft Anthony Bennett 1st overall!

Fultz was on TV all the time. I'm not an avid CBB fan but I probably saw Fultz 5-6 times on national television. Playing on the West Coast means there is less competition for the 10-11 pm ET start on ESPN's doubleheaders.

Your gimmick about anyone outside Tobacco Road essentially having non-existent college careers is old and really should have been left behind.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I would say his FTs made me leary. These first few games are a worse case scenario, and may not be who he really is. Maybe he should pullup for his FTS.

 

[zoolight.space]

Fultz was on TV all the time. I'm not an avid CBB fan but I probably saw Fultz 5-6 times on national television. Playing on the West Coast means there is less competition for the 10-11 pm ET start on ESPN's doubleheaders.

Your gimmick about anyone outside Tobacco Road essentially having non-existent college careers is old and really should have been left behind.

Believe me I do not think Tobacco road is the answer. Tatum looks to be a total anomaly. Okafor is much closer to what you usually get.

And my gimmick is funny; so is my contention that Markelle Fultz' issues are that he has not played in front of spectators before. You know, sometimes message boards exist to have fun.

Plus, I called it Cal U. And the other day when referencing Fultz I said Washington (or Washington St.?). These kinds of gems are not free.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Brown is a smart kid and wanted to be challenged a bit in his brief time in college. For...reasons, I’m not sure that would have been the case at UNC. He’d probably have been a bit more polished had he gone to a (much) better NCAA program, but I doubt it killed his development any.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/collegesports/article/Cal-s-Jaylen-Brown-has-scholarly-ambitions-6878413.php

Not really sure about Fultz’ reasoning, but one thing to note is it seems Ainge puts a bit more weight on players’ pre-NCAA rankings, and Tatum had a better pedigree than Fultz heading into 2016.

 

[zoolight.space]

Brown was also happening right in the middle of a scandal where UNC was caught putting athletes into fake classes to keep them eligible. Maybe he wanted to actually learn something his first year* in college.

Fultz went to Washington because they paid him the most.

*I say first instead of only because he absolutely strikes me as the kind of guy whose finishing his degree.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Oh, definitely. He’s the type who I can see getting his degree in the offseason/free time.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

All we had to go on were numbers though. None of us watched him play. Unless you were a season ticket holder for Washington. They were not on national television. (or television at all?, I do recall a few of the same highlights played on a loop).

Sometimes that works out fine. We didn't have good footage of The Freak or Jaylen Brown (once he forgoed big time college basketball for Cal U.) and both are awesome. Fultz may be more Yi than those two unfortunately. Especially jarring for the Sixers because Ball, Tatum, Smith, Fox ---- all look fantastic. In one of the deepest, most memorable drafts in decades leave it to the Sixers to draft Anthony Bennett 1st overall!

Nearly every one of Washington's games were broadcasted nationally. I saw 10-12 partial games with about half of them full. Fultz showed very smooth without explosiveness and a feathery jumper with good mechanics both behind the arc and off the dribble in mid-range pick-n-rolls.

Jaylen and Cal was also on nearly every night as well. His college career was well discussed leading up to the draft.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Fultz 16 minutes tonight. He went 1-3. He was called for traveling more times than he put the ball through the basket.

I hate to say this but it kind of looked like at times that he wanted no part of shooting the ball. Hopefully it was just the matchup.

one thing about high draft picks. They've never really faced adversity before. Hope he figured out how to handle all of this.

 

[bowiac]

one thing about high draft picks. They've never really faced adversity before. Hope he figured out how to handle all of this.

Fultz's Huskies lost to Yale. At home. If that's not adversity, I don't know what is.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Fultz's Huskies lost to Yale. At home. If that's not adversity, I don't know what is.

Fultz went for 30 / 7 / 6 in that game.

Whether or not I'd consider that adversity, this is a bit more, well, challenging IMO.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Fultz's Huskies lost to Yale. At home. If that's not adversity, I don't know what is.

Washington/Yale.......if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to see it does this cause adversity?

 

[reggiecleveland]

Washington/Yale.......if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to see it does this cause adversity?

 

[In my lifetime]

Just maybe Ainge knew what he was doing when he evaluated the available players prior to the draft. Then figured he could collect an easy valuable bonus pick and still get his target by trading down.

This bonus pick then in his estimation became more valuable than the 2018 Net pick. So the Net pick, Crowder and 40 games of IT were moved for at least 2 years of Kyrie. When you net out the 2 trades, it certainly looks like Ainge maximized the return.

Now I am still disappointed that Ainge couldn't predict the future and allowed Hayward to play in the first quarter of the opener, so there is still a lot of room for improvement.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

According to Brett Brown,"When you really dig in deeper, and not get tricked by just statistics, [Fultz has] been good. He really has been good."

So in this new article that contains quotes from Brown, there seems to be a few take aways.

(1) Fultz is injured.

(2) He's getting treatment.

(3) Neither Fultz nor the 76ers want to "let on much" about it.

(4) Brown has no intention of sitting Fultz and seems to be playing him to acclimate to what the 76ers are trying to do ("I'm trying to grow him and find minutes for him, and become a part of what we're doing," Brown said. "He's obviously a huge part of our future. That kind of stuff is what's mostly on my mind.")

(5) None of Brown's "mostly medical advisors" appear to have "any fears" that playing Fultz is going to have long-term negative implications.

(6) Fultz has actually been good, if you stop looking at statistics.

OK.

 

[LeftyTG]

 

[In my lifetime]

How does it make sense to have the #1 pick play through an injury severe enough to hamper his shooting style for these very low leverage games?

Considering the other bullet points in the article, tough to decipher exactly what is going on.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

He was that wide open from 3 and still didn't pull the trigger?

I'm sure he'll work through whatever it is, but the early going is ugly.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Someone also mentioned how big Fultz was getting. I wonder if his shoulder injury is partly due to the weight room, assuming the injury is legit and not an excuse for the yips.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Someone also mentioned how big Fultz was getting. I wonder if his shoulder injury is partly due to the weight room, assuming the injury is legit and not an excuse for the yips.

They have weight rooms in the Philly area Chick-fil-As?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

They have weight rooms in the Philly area Chick-fil-As?

Older picture and there are a few people who think it's photoshopped, but if it isn't, he's not a stranger to the weight room.

 

[BigSoxFan]

That’s a perfect explanation.

 

[DJnVa]

Older picture and there are a few people who think it's photoshopped, but if it isn't, he's not a stranger to the weight room.

Uh, yeah

 

[lovegtm]

Older picture and there are a few people who think it's photoshopped, but if it isn't, he's not a stranger to the weight room.

Not photoshopped, but he's also not that big: it's right after a pump, and it's also taken from the exact angle where he'll look biggest.

 

[LondonSox]

This thread is so ridiculous sometimes, now fultz is a non shooter in college?

Lol wot. That's why the sixers wanted him because he showed off ball shooting chops and sick pull up moves. Great in the pnr as a result and a great handle and able to get to the rim.

This could have been expected is nonsense. In summer league he was fine. Remember kd and the hessie pull up Jimbo??

And brown isn't wrong. He has passed very well, driven great (getting to the rim despite no one respecting a jumper or pull up) and has blown me away defensively Vs short term expectations.

Literally it's his shot. Which he's not even taking. He did a jump ball using his left hand. There is something there. Whether real or in his head who knows. But he's acting like it hurts. He constantly rotates it at every break.

 

[DJnVa]

Come on dude. Most posters pushed back and said he shot fine in college but his FT numbers were lower than you’d like.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

The year after year shadiness surrounding injuries would drive me nuts as a Sixers fan.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

There is no injury that forced you to double clutch in mid-air on an open 12-foot jumper while releasing it on the way down. These mechanics are reminiscent of Bruce Bowen when he was a Celtic......except Fultz used to be able to shoot. Wow way to dodge a bullet Danny!!

Edit: If London says he's showing discomfort in his shoulder during dead balls I'll believe it. Who is clearing him to play injured and where is his representation during all of this?

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Almost certainly would not have happened due to butterfly effect, etc., but man, imagine the Sixers coulda-shoulda-picked starting five from the last five drafts?

2013 Giannis
2014 Embiid
2015 Porzingis
2016 Simmons
2017 Tatum (even if you think Fultz will end up the better player, Tatum's a much better fit on a team with Simmons and Giannis)

With Covington and Saric coming off the bench. My word...

 

[Jimbodandy]

This thread is so ridiculous sometimes, now fultz is a non shooter in college?

Lol wot. That's why the sixers wanted him because he showed off ball shooting chops and sick pull up moves. Great in the pnr as a result and a great handle and able to get to the rim.

This could have been expected is nonsense. In summer league he was fine. Remember kd and the hessie pull up Jimbo??

And brown isn't wrong. He has passed very well, driven great (getting to the rim despite no one respecting a jumper or pull up) and has blown me away defensively Vs short term expectations.

Literally it's his shot. Which he's not even taking. He did a jump ball using his left hand. There is something there. Whether real or in his head who knows. But he's acting like it hurts. He constantly rotates it at every break.

Any questioning of his shot as "functional" is revisionist.

Some were hanging "he won't be elite" on non-elite FT%, and even that is probably hogwash at these sample sizes.

And frankly, I'm not sure that the questioning of his explosiveness holds water, except perhaps in the "ok maybe he's not elite there" context.

What most of us thought was that he was NBA ready at all three levels, while perhaps not elite at any one thing. Something is obviously very wrong with his shot, and nobody actually saw this coming or is saying that they did (from what I can tell).

I was against trading out of the top spot and wanted Fultz, and I take no joy in seeing this transpire.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Any questioning of his shot as "functional" is revisionist.

Some were hanging "he won't be elite" on non-elite FT%, and even that is probably hogwash at these sample sizes.

And frankly, I'm not sure that the questioning of his explosiveness holds water, except perhaps in the "ok maybe he's not elite there" context.

What most of us thought was that he was NBA ready at all three levels, while perhaps not elite at any one thing. Something is obviously very wrong with his shot, and nobody actually saw this coming or is saying that they did (from what I can tell).

I was against trading out of the top spot and wanted Fultz, and I take no joy in seeing this transpire.

To clarify my position. When discussing the #1 overall pick in the draft we must take the criticize in context with the expectations. My qualm on Fultz was his lack of explosiveness at the rim that would hamper him from becoming an elite player. Not that this deficiency would prevent him from being a "good" player in this league. My comp for him has been Monta Ellis but I may add some Royce White in there from a mental approach.

 

[bowiac]

Some were hanging "he won't be elite" on non-elite FT%, and even that is probably hogwash at these sample sizes.

I'm with you on the broader point that there's some revisionism going on here, but with respect to his shooting, everything was small sample. The reason for optimism around his shot in the first place was also small sample size, so the concerns about the mediocre free throw shooting were pretty reasonable.

For what it's worth, I think there's some overreaction going on here. I agree his stock has dropped, but I doubt he'd make it past 4 in a redraft now.

 

[jon abbey]

Finally some answers here:

"Philadelphia 76ers guard Markelle Fultz, the top overall pick in the 2017 NBA draft, had fluid drained from his right shoulder and is planning to visit a specialist soon, his agent told ESPN on Tuesday.

"Markelle had a shoulder injury and fluid drained out of the back of his shoulder," agent Raymond Brothers told ESPN. "He literally cannot raise up his arms to shoot the basketball. He decided to try and fight through the pain to help the team. He has a great attitude. We are committed to finding a solution to get Markelle back to 100 percent.""

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21141852/philadelphia-76ers-rookie-markelle-fultz-had-fluid-drained-shoulder

 

[BigSoxFan]

Finally some answers here:

"Philadelphia 76ers guard Markelle Fultz, the top overall pick in the 2017 NBA draft, had fluid drained from his right shoulder and is planning to visit a specialist soon, his agent told ESPN on Tuesday.

"Markelle had a shoulder injury and fluid drained out of the back of his shoulder," agent Raymond Brothers told ESPN. "He literally cannot raise up his arms to shoot the basketball. He decided to try and fight through the pain to help the team. He has a great attitude. We are committed to finding a solution to get Markelle back to 100 percent.""

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21141852/philadelphia-76ers-rookie-markelle-fultz-had-fluid-drained-shoulder

Colangelo and Brown can’t be too psyched that the agent let the cat out of the bag.

 

[Cellar-Door]

You know it's a well run organization when everyone has been talking about your player obviously being injured and how it is ruining his shooting form for 2 weeks (based on the player himself telling Kevin O'Connor) but you refuse to shut him down to the point that his agent has to give on the record quotes to Woj. Sixers have a ton of talent but organizationally and particularly on the medical side they are still a dumpster fire

 

[lovegtm]

For what it's worth, I think there's some overreaction going on here. I agree his stock has dropped, but I doubt he'd make it past 4 in a redraft now.

It's not like he'd go undrafted or anything, but going from a #1 who is valued at Tatum+a top pick to #4 is a massive drop in four months.

 

[AimingForYoko]

Yikes. What on earth are they doing to this kid?

"Help the team"...help them do what exactly? This kid is hearing bronx cheers when he shoots ft's. I hope his agent is putting this out there to force the Sixers hands because this is a goat rodeo.

 

[LondonSox]

The year after year shadiness surrounding injuries would drive me nuts as a Sixers fan.

Yup. Esp as hinkie was fired for poor communication and then embiid, Simmons and now this.
Pretty annoyed.

You know it's a well run organization when everyone has been talking about your player obviously being injured and how it is ruining his shooting form for 2 weeks (based on the player himself telling Kevin O'Connor) but you refuse to shut him down to the point that his agent has to give on the record quotes to Woj. Sixers have a ton of talent but organizationally and particularly on the medical side they are still a dumpster fire

They just hired a new head from Barcelona too.

Yikes. What on earth are they doing to this kid?

"Help the team"...help them do what exactly? This kid is hearing bronx cheers when he shoots ft's. I hope his agent is putting this out there to force the Sixers hands because this is a goat rodeo.

Yeah so I stand by (for now) my theory that this is colangelo or ownership. They want to show the team moving forward and the last thing they wanted to do was have another top pick hurt.
However, that's beyond stupid.
They played embiid Vs Houston where he hurt his knee (officially) despite him not being 100% because it was a nationally televised game.

This is the anti hinkie move. Play the kid hurt anyway.

They need to shut him down. That all said I have been impressed with his defense, he's better than bayless right now.
Play bayless with Simmons and let TJ and saric run the second unit. End.

I am honestly more pleased it is an injury than not, obviously it's not horrendous as all that as he's been able to play. If it was really bad he'd sit. But between this and his knee etc and how often he's in traffic...

Anyway honestly if he is really hurt then you have to say his games have encouraged. His passing has been very solid, he has been able to get into the paint almost at will, despite everyone playing off him. He hasn't been finishing well as it's been so crowded. But seeing both Simmons and fultz drive without issues while the d sags off both is kind of good. Right?

And re my earlier comments, yes I know many came to the defense against those comments. But I really find the hope fultz is bad from some Celtics fans off-putting, as is the he was shit all along.
I don't want Tatum to be hurt or mental.

Long term let's just pretend fultz is better health wise and shooting like he used to. He is a weapon in the half court esp in PNR and Simmons is better in transition. People saying ball is a better fit, imo, are off. Ball and Simmons are elite in transition but both have concerns in the half court. Obviously ball is expected to be a better shooter (but also had a low ft% like fultz so if that's the criticism then applies here too).
The sixers needed a guard, and there aren't any obvious ones this year.

 

[bowiac]

And re my earlier comments, yes I know many came to the defense against those comments. But I really find the hope fultz is bad from some Celtics fans off-putting, as is the he was shit all along.

I think it's fine to hope that players who don't play for your favorite team are bad. Other teams having bad players is half the battle really.

 

[tims4wins]

I think it's fine to hope that players who don't play for your favorite team are bad. Other teams having bad players is half the battle really.

Plus, the worse Fultz is the more decisive of a trade win it is for the Celts and Ainge

 

[zoolight.space]

Exactly. I think a fan of a team wants their management to be better than other teams. If Tatum is significantly better than 0-Fultz AND the Celtics stole a valuable asset from the 76ers then it bodes very well for Celtics fans.

 

[HowBoutDemSox]

Apparently wasn't fluid drained, it was a cortisone shot:

The agent for Philadelphia 76ers guard Markelle Fultz changed his explanation Tuesday night on the treatment the No. 1 overall pick has received on his right shoulder, revising his earlier statement that fluid was drained from it during the preseason.

"He had a cortisone shot on Oct. 5, which means fluid was put into his shoulder -- not taken out," agent Raymond Brothers told ESPN on Tuesday night. "My intention earlier was to let people know that he's been experiencing discomfort. We will continue to work with (Sixers general manager) Bryan Colangelo and the medical staff."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21141852/philadelphia-76ers-rookie-markelle-fultz-had-cortisone-shot-shoulder

 

[Royal Reader]

The sixers needed a guard, and there aren't any obvious ones this year.

Not quite sure what that means. There weren't any in FA, there weren't any in the draft, or just that while there were lots in the draft, all of them had warts? Fultz himself seemed pretty obvious at the time. Fox doesn't seem like a fit next to Simmons, and trading down and getting DSJ or Monk would have been as ballsy a move as trading up for Fultz.

Don't want Markelle to get hurt, definitely won't lose any sleep if he turns out to be mediocre considering he's on a division rival. Seems like there's a big difference between wishing for those two things.

 

[Royal Reader]

London, not quite sure what that means. There weren't any in FA, there weren't any in the draft, or just that while there were lots in the draft, all of them had warts? Fultz himself seemed pretty obvious at the time. Fox doesn't seem like a fit next to Simmons, and trading down and getting DSJ or Monk would have been as ballsy a move as trading up for Fultz. EDIT: I get it now. You're talking about 2018.

Don't want Markelle to get hurt, definitely won't lose any sleep if he turns out to be mediocre considering he's on a division rival. Seems like there's a big difference between wishing for those two things.

 

[Devizier]

How soon can we call him Baby Oden? Presumably when he's playing with a shoulder replacement in a few seasons, right?

 

[DJnVa]

And re my earlier comments, yes I know many came to the defense against those comments. But I really find the hope fultz is bad from some Celtics fans off-putting, as is the he was shit all along.
I don't want Tatum to be hurt or mental.

You're conflating two things. "the hope fultz is bad" isn't equivalent to "i don't want Tatum to be hurt".

And wanting players on other teams to play bad is odd to you? It's like, what being a fan is. I hope Aaron Judge hits .220 next year with 6 homers. I don't care how nice he is.

 

[luckiestman]

I'm glad this is physical. Silver should have a real talking to the Philly brass. You can't put a high ceiling kid out on the floor if he is hurt to the point that he is fucking embarrassing himself. That's malpractice not just for Filthy but for the league.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I'm glad this is physical. Silver should have a real talking to the Philly brass. You can't put a high ceiling kid out on the floor if he is hurt to the point that he is fucking embarrassing himself. That's malpractice not just for Filthy but for the league.

If his injury was really that bad, he wouldn't be playing. It would be reckless.

 

[benhogan]

Any expectations that Philly brass will put Brett Brown on the hot seat?

Lots of hope coming into the season, BUT you have Fultz shooting/injury blunder, Embid massive early contract head-scratcher. If this start continues, add in a few months of poor play and management may want to cover their tracks by blaming a coach they didn't hire.

I'm making an early call on the 76ers next head coach: Rick Pitino