Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
As an innocent bystander that doesn't have a rooting interest in Philly or Boston I think a lot of posters came down way too hard on Londonsox. He's very knowledgeable about basketball and while he loves his team he never really said anything wholly unreasonable (Covington over Tatum today may not be the popular opinion, but it is defensible). Everything's coming up Millhouse right know for the Celtics and that's made everyone a little overzealous in praising Kryie and Tatum. They deserve credit for how good they've been but I can see how that would be grating to an outsider, though, especially given how much everyone seemed to hate the Kyrie deal when it happened and the Tatum/Fultz sample size right now is barely existent.
As bowiac has noted, this is simply not true with regard to Tatum. We now have more NBA-level data on Tatum than we do for his entire college career, and all of the data is positive to a crazy degree.

The Kyrie point is fair.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
The Tatum/Fultz sample size is non-existent in the sense that we no data so far on Fultz. That's not to say people can't have new expectations for Tatum based on his play so far, but we only have a few months of weird, injury-plagued performance and some wild speculation on mental problems for Fultz. It's an overreaction to say that we know today that it was a slam dunk win for the Celtics and a tire fire for the Sixers. There is still a lot of time for Fultz to become the player people expected.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
The Tatum/Fultz sample size is non-existent in the sense that we no data so far on Fultz. That's not to say people can't have new expectations for Tatum based on his play so far, but we only have a few months of weird, injury-plagued performance and some wild speculation on mental problems for Fultz. It's an overreaction to say that we know today that it was a slam dunk win for the Celtics and a tire fire for the Sixers. There is still a lot of time for Fultz to become the player people expected.
Agreed regarding Fultz. However, Tatum's performance so far makes it very likely that, barring injury, the trade is a slam dunk win for the Celtics because of the extra lottery pick acquired. It's comparable to the return the Bulls got for Jimmy Butler, but also comes with Jayson Tatum attached. Not sure how that's anything but a 360 windmill.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
As an innocent bystander that doesn't have a rooting interest in Philly or Boston I think a lot of posters came down way too hard on Londonsox. He's very knowledgeable about basketball and while he loves his team he never really said anything wholly unreasonable
He is knowledgable, but he is one of the biggest homers on this board. I don't mind homerism, but he's insufferable in accusing everyone else here of being homers and not rational like he is. If he'd just stop doing that, I guarantee you that no one would care.

Covington over Tatum today may not be the popular opinion, but it is defensible.
It is, but that's not his claim. He went a lot further than that, and has essentially said that Covington's looooong track record of streaky shooting isn't the reality, that his shooting streak this year is the new normal and that Covington will likely remain better due to continued development. Despite the eight year age difference.

As for Tatum a lot of hardcore junkies pointed out Tatum's improved shooting form, and increasing three point shooting percentage over the course of last season combined with the free throw shooting as evidence that the concerns over his shooting were overblown.

This year he's been very good at his catch & shoot treys, and as he gains strength and experience he should improve at the pull-ups too. He just probably is good enough to be a 40% shooter out of the box.

They deserve credit for how good they've been but I can see how that would be grating to an outsider, though, especially given how much everyone seemed to hate the Kyrie deal when it happened and the Tatum/Fultz sample size right now is barely existent.
I agree that many people hated it, but a lot of us really liked it. It's why that thread went on for 3,782 pages. If everyone hated it the bitching and moaning would have died out quickly.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,482
It is, but that's not his claim. He went a lot further than that, and has essentially said that Covington's looooong track record of streaky shooting isn't the reality, that his shooting streak this year is the new normal and that Covington will likely remain better due to continued development. Despite the eight year age difference.
I don't have a dog in this fight but just for the record, the bolded above is not what London said. He was very clear that he thought Covington was better than Tatum now. He also said that "He [Tatum] may be better one day [than Covington] he [Tatum] isn't now."

Part of the issue is that this is a message board and people don't spend an hour writing or reading a three sentence post so things get misspoken/misinterpreted. That more than anything else is what I wish more posters would understand.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
I don't have a dog in this fight but just for the record, the bolded above is not what London said. He was very clear that he thought Covington was better than Tatum now. He also said that "He [Tatum] may be better one day [than Covington] he [Tatum] isn't now."

Part of the issue is that this is a message board and people don't spend an hour writing or reading a three sentence post so things get misspoken/misinterpreted. That more than anything else is what I wish more posters would understand.
Maybe I'm reading the following comments wrong, but I don't think so.

He's not now, and will be is a moronic comment.
Nothing is certain, esp as Covington has improved significantly every year.
Those statements go a lot further than your charitable reading of his words. But, see, I'm not even complaining about this. I understand that some people are homers. Homers of various teams have civil conversations here all the time because we understand the bias.

It's things like the following that take him way past the homer line into insufferable territory

Covington is 10th in real plus minus in the entire league (down from top 5) and 14th in defensive real plus minus.
But please continue your bullshit. ...

I get you like your own players, it's not impossible to understand reality despite liking your own players.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,847
NYC
Ugh, now I feel bad about my Brady v Wentz comment. I hope London wasn’t / isn’t too big of an Iggles fan.

As a mostly neutral observer, I really enjoyed his contributions, even when he as annoyingly Sixers-biased as I am annoyingly Warriors-biased.

Hope to see you back soon, London!!
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
It is, but that's not his claim. He went a lot further than that, and has essentially said that Covington's looooong track record of streaky shooting isn't the reality, that his shooting streak this year is the new normal and that Covington will likely remain better due to continued development. Despite the eight year age difference.
.

That wasn't his argument. He thinks Covington is better right now. You are right that he does keep pointing out Tatum's unsustainable shooting while ignoring Covington's, although Covington has already started to regress to the norm. This year, he is currently at .447/.429/.807. Prior to this year, Covington was a career .393/.354/.812 shooter. Over his last 10 games: .383/.342/.800.

I don't get how anyone could get all that upset over someone suggesting Tatum is better. Covington is the epitome of a 3 and D guy, and up until this year, was slightly below average from 3. Covington is having a career year and it's comparable to what Tatum is doing in his rookie season as a 19 year old. It's not like people are suggesting Tatum is better than Ben Simmons. It's Robert F'n Covington.

This site does have homers though. Last year, many people were arguing Paul George wouldn't be that much of an upgrade over Jae Crowder and one poster saying Crowder was better. As someone who has never been a big Jae Crowder guy, I never understood some of the love he got. Sometimes I think people are slaves to advanced metrics. DeRozan doesn't suck.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Ugh, now I feel bad about my Brady v Wentz comment. I hope London wasn’t / isn’t too big of an Iggles fan.

As a mostly neutral observer, I really enjoyed his contributions, even when he as annoyingly Sixers-biased as I am annoyingly Warriors-biased.

Hope to see you back soon, London!!
You aren't annoying because you aren't playing the "my opinion is not biased and yours is" card. Almost all of his animosity is centered around Jayson Tatum too, which makes it look like sour grapes.

Essentially, anyone who disagrees with his view points on Tatum is a homer. There isn't any arguing with him. We are all being irrational. Those types of posts are literally the worst and contribute nothing to the board. This is the same board that constantly talks about how great Simmons and Embiid are and the same board that is scared shitless of the 76ers getting another top pick in 2018, 19 or heaven forbid, both. We are all clearly homers though.

If you want to post how great Jordan Bell is, go for it. Just don't go raining on my parade if I talk up Semi Ojeleye.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
That wasn't his argument. He thinks Covington is better right now. You are right that he does keep pointing out Tatum's unsustainable shooting while ignoring Covington's, although Covington has already started to regress to the norm. This year, he is currently at .447/.429/.807. Prior to this year, Covington was a career .393/.354/.812 shooter. Over his last 10 games: .383/.342/.800.
Read the second post. He went further than that.

I don't get how anyone could get all that upset over someone suggesting Tatum is better. Covington is the epitome of a 3 and D guy, and up until this year, was slightly below average from 3. Covington is having a career year and it's comparable to what Tatum is doing in his rookie season as a 19 year old. It's not like people are suggesting Tatum is better than Ben Simmons. It's Robert F'n Covington.
I agree there are rational arguments to be made, I don't think they're very good because they rely on a black box efficiency number that fail the eye test. But you can make the argument. Which he wasn't, he was just declaring that anyone that thought Tatum was better now or would be in the future was a moron.

This site does have homers though. Last year, many people were arguing Paul George wouldn't be that much of an upgrade over Jae Crowder and one poster saying Crowder was better. As someone who has never been a big Jae Crowder guy, I never understood some of the love he got. Sometimes I think people are slaves to advanced metrics. DeRozan doesn't suck.
Case in point. The numbers people relied on the black box efficiency numbers to make the case that Boston's 3&D small forward was a better player than Paul George when anyone that watched in addition to looking at the numbers could see that George did a whole lot more on the floor.

This isn't to say that one should ignore the numbers (although I've long argued that basketball breaks down on the micro level far better than the macro level and one should prefer the former numbers in evaluation), but that you really do need to study the film in addition to the numbers.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
They deserve credit for how good they've been but I can see how that would be grating to an outsider, though, especially given how much everyone seemed to hate the Kyrie deal when it happened and the Tatum/Fultz sample size right now is barely existent.
I wouldn't say everyone as there was a small group of us who flat out LOVED the deal at time. As for Covington, he has turned into a really nice player despite learning how to play the NBA under probably the worst possible circumstance without any teammates to learn how to play the game. He's a good role player right now and sure you can go back and forth on which player would be preferred for this year but I feel it's laughable to suggest that what Tatum is doing at 19 without his body fully developed wouldn't have him several levels above Covington within the next few years.



The Tatum/Fultz sample size is non-existent in the sense that we no data so far on Fultz. That's not to say people can't have new expectations for Tatum based on his play so far, but we only have a few months of weird, injury-plagued performance and some wild speculation on mental problems for Fultz. It's an overreaction to say that we know today that it was a slam dunk win for the Celtics and a tire fire for the Sixers. There is still a lot of time for Fultz to become the player people expected.
As was said above I would not characterize Tatum/Fultz as a barely existent sample size as Tatum's floor has risen dramatically since the draft along with the Lakers/King pick still appearing juicy. There are few 19 year olds in the history of the league who have produced on the floor, understood the game, fit in with veterans and a winning team, while still having the upside of his physical skills to grow into. Even if Fultz becomes the player some people expected you'd have a hard time winning this trade from a Philly perspective when you factor in the entire return now that we have the newest Tatum information.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
Ugh, now I feel bad about my Brady v Wentz comment. I hope London wasn’t / isn’t too big of an Iggles fan.

As a mostly neutral observer, I really enjoyed his contributions, even when he as annoyingly Sixers-biased as I am annoyingly Warriors-biased.

Hope to see you back soon, London!!
I'm a big Eagles fan, and can confirm that yesterday afternoon was not a super fun time.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Read the second post. He went further than that.
Prior to that, he hadn't. He still had some agenda towards Tatum though, and has since the trade. He's also upset that people change their opinions "quickly" but a lot can happen over the off season and the first 25-30 games of the year, especially for players under 24/25. Should I not change my opinion on guys like Giannis, Kristaps, or Aaron Gordon? How many games or how many 3s does Aaron Gordon have to make/attempt before I can safely say he's much improved? He isn't going to shoot 40% from 3, but I think it's also fair to assume he's not going to revert back to a sub .300 shooter either.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Due to a pm I'm going to make a last post.

If you can't see why attacking someone for saying his mental health issues are forcing him to leave the board is EXACTLY why this board is becoming toxic.

The fact someone attacks a poster after this is a totally classless.

I hope none of you suffer from mental health issues to understand how miserable it is and how being attacked when you are down and struggling feels.

Bosox screw you huh. You utter douchebag.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Due to a pm I'm going to make a last post.

If you can't see why attacking someone for saying his mental health issues are forcing him to leave the board is EXACTLY why this board is becoming toxic.

The fact someone attacks a poster after this is a totally classless.

I hope none of you suffer from mental health issues to understand how miserable it is and how being attacked when you are down and struggling feels.

Bosox screw you huh. You utter douchebag.

Why don't you post some screenshots of the messages you send me? You aren't the victim and you are the one who sent the PM. I also didn't attack you for saying you were going to leave the board for mental health issues. You decided to take it upon yourself to message me and tell me what an asshole I am for calling you a homer even though you are calling people morons and telling them to walk off a pier.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837
Detente time.

Did London move back stateside? In Philly? If so, I’ll be there tomorrow—we should grab a beer.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,425
Everyone deserves a break occasionally. Maybe let's shut the fuck up about LondonSox for a bit? I really don't care who's right or wrong. It's high school bullshit.

Maybe people can post about Fultz or not at all? You know. The topic of the thread. Feel free to start a, "LondonSox is mean and likes his team" thread on P&G if you want...
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,667
Look, I feel bad that things were taken personally, but once LS kept posting in the Irving trade thread that the deal was a complete disaster for Boston, then, when the trade appeared in jeopardy started posting that if it fell through THAT would be an even greater disaster for Boston, then called us all homers for not appreciating the clarity with which he saw everything, well, I didn't take him all that seriously when it came to the C's. But again it should all be in good fun.
 

Royal Reader

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2005
2,275
UK

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
10,103
Still no timetable for a return; apparently he's been doing solo activities but not team activities, but will start team activities soon:

“Slowly we will start integrating him into this,” Brown said of Fultz’s workouts. “But the answer everybody probably wants to hear is when [will he play]. I just don’t know that.”

Fultz, the first-overall pick in June’s NBA draft, hasn’t done much since being cleared to participate in team activities on Dec. 9. At that time, the belief was that Fultz would start participating in team drills. However, he participated only in solo drills under the supervision of a player-development coach.

The Sixers won’t throw Fultz in five-on-five scrimmages, at least not initially. He might compete in some 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 drills.
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/sixers-markelle-fultz-injury-update-practice-return-20171227.html?mobi=true
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837
He was cleared to participate in team activities on 12/9, but hasn't yet, almost 3 weeks later?
 

Bosox1528

New Member
Dec 22, 2017
178
Soooo, it's been 3 weeks since the report saying that Fultz was no longer hurt and would be back in 3 weeks (which leaves me to wonder why a perfectly healthy player needs to sit out for 3 weeks but nevermind that), so where is the guy? There's been no reports about his "progression", no reports about an imminent return or anything. Has this guy just completely dropped off the face of the earth?
 

The Needler

New Member
Dec 7, 2016
1,803
Soooo, it's been 3 weeks since the report saying that Fultz was no longer hurt and would be back in 3 weeks (which leaves me to wonder why a perfectly healthy player needs to sit out for 3 weeks but nevermind that), so where is the guy? There's been no reports about his "progression", no reports about an imminent return or anything. Has this guy just completely dropped off the face of the earth?
Did you read any of the posts immediately above yours on this page? The new news is that he's now ready to start participating in drills with the team. Because even though he wasn't hurt before, he was not not hurt enough to play with his teammates, or something.

But this all makes perfect sense, and we shouldn't criticize the Sixers for taking their time here. There's nothing to suggest this is a mental issue or an issue with his totally broken shot. He just needs to get his conditioning back. There's nothing to see here.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837
Could you post a summary or snippets? I have apparently already received my allotment of Philadelphia news.
Nothing new, but just the local guys starting to wonder what's up.

The first-overall pick in June’s NBA draft needs to be out there with his 76ers teammates. The combo guard needs to get the ball, dribble, step back and attempt three-pointers. Fultz needs to drive to the basket and elevate his right shoulder while drawing contact. He needs to attempt foul shots on the road in front of 18,000 hostile fans.

Right now, he’s far from doing those things on the floor.
Coach Brett Brown said on Nov. 30 that Fultz wouldn’t play until his shot passes the eye test. And it doesn’t appear that the coach is ready to change his stance.
But they have to play him at some point. They might as well make it this season. The Sixers have to find out what they have in him.

He’s been cleared to resume basketball activities three weeks ago. There’s really no benefit or medical reason for sitting him an entire season.
 

jimv

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 5, 2011
1,118
Markelle was interviewed on the court after the Suns game (along with iirc Embiid, Simmons and Covington?). So he's traveling with the team. Who knows what's holding him back from participating in practices
 

lostjumper

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 27, 2009
1,277
Concord, NH
I've thought all along that a significant part of this was mental for Fultz. The longer this goes on, the more accurate that seems.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,111
Santa Monica
Could you post a summary or snippets? I have apparently already received my allotment of Philadelphia news.
He’s been cleared to resume basketball activities three weeks ago. There’s really no benefit or medical reason for sitting him an entire season.

It’s not like he can become a second-year rookie next season and contend for the 2018-19 rookie-of-the-year award. He blew that opportunity by playing in the first three games.

This is some of the content you missed, so consider yourself lucky to have saved yourself 5 minutes.

On another note, if the Lakers pick conveys, I'd be hard-pressed to want Fultz over that player.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,204
The "mental issues" thing seems to be a bit of a hot take. That said, if this goes on much longer, the heightened scrutiny around Fultz' game is only going to increase. Even if the narrative was overblown to start, it's likely to take on a bigger life with each inevitable rookie misstep that Fultz will almost certainly make.

Also, Tatum's performance as well as the overall depth of this past draft is going to up the pressure too.
 

The Needler

New Member
Dec 7, 2016
1,803
The "mental issues" thing seems to be a bit of a hot take.
It's hardly a hot take. It's the most likely explanation. He was deemed healthy enough to play several games to start the season; members of his organization said he tinkered with his shot without their guidance; he's been out for months now, and the team has said there's nothing wrong with his shoulder, yet he's not practicing with the team, and so there is no video of him shooting. Now we learn that he's been working *in private* with shooting coach Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. His own coach has on multiple occasions said his "confidence" needs to be there before he plays, and that he has to be there "mentally." If it's a hot take, it started with Brett Brown.

What's actually remarkable to me is the way the Philadelphia media has largely given the team and the kid a pass on this debacle, and accepted what they're being fed by the team every few weeks with little question. If this were Boston or NYC, you can be sure the media would be digging into what is really going on with the #1 pick in the draft, who is healthy but not playing.
 

The Needler

New Member
Dec 7, 2016
1,803
And by the way, the reluctance many have here about "jumping to conclusions" or that the issue being psychological is a "hot take'" is the very reason we're likely not getting the truth about what's going on - the stigmatization of mental health issues. We're totally okay with believing in an injury (scapular imbalance) most of us had never heard of, and armchair hypothesizing about any other physical injury we suspect are bothering players, but the suggestion that he's suffering from an issue we have seen many times before (Rick Ankiel, Steve Sax, etc.) is a hot take because there's a value judgment associated with it.

A 19-year old with more pressure on his shoulders than 99% of us will experience in our lives might be having trouble dealing with it psychologically. Doesn't mean he's a bad kid, or that he's weak. But it's the most likely explanation here.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,083
I’m honestly surprised that this hasn’t been a bigger deal for the national media. We’re talking about the #1 pick in the draft being out for reasons that still aren’t fully understood. I’m definitely leaning towards the mental explanation - only question for me is whether it is the yips or something more than that.

The whole situation is unlike any I can remember in the NBA and is just truly bizarre. The Sixers have a lot riding on his development so while the spotlight appears to be off him right now, it won’t be off for long, especially if that pick conveys this year.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,204
To be clear, I don't feel like I have enough information nor have I seen much to support the mental issues theme or even If there is currently an injury. Perhaps others here have different info but I am loathe to jump to a conclusion about what is bothering Fultz.

That said I agree that if it is mental, the stigma around those problems likely makes the pressure you cited that much greater.

Finally, I agree that were Fultz in a larger market, the scrutiny around his absence would likely be much greater. The fact that it isn't (yet) is a good thing imho but then again, I don't like to see busts, even if it turns out that Ainge was right about Fultz (and Tatum).
 

Smokey Joe

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,155
Finally, I agree that were Fultz in a larger market, the scrutiny around his absence would likely be much greater. The fact that it isn't (yet) is a good thing imho but then again, I don't like to see busts, even if it turns out that Ainge was right about Fultz (and Tatum).
In passing, I would like to mention that Philadelphia is the fourth largest media market in the US, Certainly bigger then either of the Bay Areas. Perhaps the media there is less obnoxious.