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Markelle Fultz, Year Two: Blass, Ankiel, Knoblauch...or cheese fries?

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by PedroKsBambino, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    From my memory, I don't recall pitchers who were later diagnosed with TOS, wincing in pain during their starts.
     
  2. Nick Kaufman

    Nick Kaufman protector of human kind from spoilers Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, that poor body language indicates to me as well that the problem is mental, or at least partially mental. I mean shouldn't he show some sign of physical discomfort if that's the problem?
     
  3. DaveRoberts'Shoes

    DaveRoberts'Shoes Aaron Burr Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    TOS is real but rare.

    He’s got the yips.
     
  4. The Process

    The Process lurker

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    And if he was shaking his hand or complaining that his fingers were numb people would blame it on Fortnite or cheese fries. He's handling it the best he can and for the sake of argument let's just say it is the yips. Getting a diagnosis of TOS should help him mentally as well. As long as the team or the team we trade him to believes him, I'm happy.
     
  5. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    In the wikipedia pages for the various NBA drafts, they show photos of the top-10 picks in action shots down the right-hand bar.

    In the 2017 page, amid all of the other players actually playing, at top is Fultz in a suit jacket on the sideline.

    Ain't no petty like NBA petty.
     
  6. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Hindsight being 20/20, is he a worse pick than Anthony Bennett? At least to date?

    Fultz is obviously far more talented and most considered him the #1 guy in the draft but results are results.
     
  7. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Assuming neither play again in the NBA the only thing differentiating them would be the other options had their team not drafted them. Tatum or Oladipo? Porter or Ball? You could nitpick on a marginal favorite but they are relatively similar. So yeah, equal busts.
     
  8. DavidTai

    DavidTai Member SoSH Member

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    But Fultz cost an extra draft pick on top of it. Is that really equal?
     
  9. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    That's not his fault though. It's a question about how much value he provided where he was picked and relative to his peers. It has nothing to do with the trade. You can only compare him to other #1 picks and his draft class.
     
  10. Spelunker

    Spelunker Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    When evaluating the Fultz side, for sure. But if you're evaluating it from the team decision side...well, that's definitely part of the calculation.
     
  11. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    I think that's a different question, which is:

    Was Philly trading for Fultz the worst trade for a #1 pick ever?

    Then you have to consider the Celtics/Warriors1980 trade of #1 (Joe Barry Carroll) + #13 (Ricky Brown) for #3 (Kevin McHale) and 4yr vet Robert Parrish. JBC had a nice career, but McHale and Parrish were HOFers.

    Sam Ray Not feel free to weigh in here ;)
     
  12. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    How many trades for a known #1 pick have ever been made? Wasn't 2017 the first since 1980?

    I guess CLE's Kyrie Irving pick in 2011 was an unprotected first from the Clippers, but they didn't know it was going to be #1 at the time. And James Worthy, drafted #1 in 1982 by (of course) the Lakers, who had acquired the pick by trading Don Ford in 1979. But that wasn't known to be #1 at that point. Nor was their 1979 pick for Magic Johnson, which was from a years-prior swap. Likewise Atlanta acquiring what became 1975's David Thompson, in a Pete Maravich trade the year before.

    edit: OK, I see 5 others, on top of 1980 and 2017...

    - Chris Webber, drafted #1 in 1993 by the Magic, immediately traded to GSW for Penny Hardaway and 3 future 1sts.
    - Brad Dougherty, drafted #1 in 1986 by the Cadavers, having acquired the pick from the 76ers for Roy Hinson and $800,000 cash. Generally viewed as very disappointing.
    - Mychal Thompson, drafted #1 in 1978 by the Blazers, acquired from the Pacers for pick #3 and Johnny Davis. Both picks flamed out, while a higher-value pick went at #6...
    - John Lucas (1976), acquired by Houston from Atlanta in exchange for the 9th pick and various player swaps. Two HOFers went in between those two picks.
    - and Rod Hundley in 1957, acquired by the Lakers after the draft in a 7-player swap with the Cincinnati Royals. Tom Heinsohn, Bill Russell and KC Jones were the previous year. These were the days of an 8-team league.

    edit: fun fact, the first-ever NBA draft pick, Clifton McNeely, picked #1 overall in 1947 by the BAA's Pittsburgh Ironmen, never played in a game, instead opting for a high school coaching career in Texas. The Ironmen folded before the season started.

    Go easy on the guy, he lived through the era where his team picked Joe Smith at #1 in 1995, and the next 4 players picked all became all-stars (McDyess, Stackhouse, 'Sheed, and KG).
     
    #1962 InstaFace, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  13. ManicCompression

    ManicCompression lurker

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    Bennett was more of a “what the hell?” pick. Seems like most of the nba was surprised by him going 1. Fultz had more of a consensus behind him, to the point where this board was wondering if we made the right move trading him for more assets.
     
  14. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    ha, I'm definitely guilty of trolling here.:oops:

    Considering Steph/Klay/Dray have won as many Championships (and counting) as the Bird/McHale/Parrish era I think he's fine with a little dig from 40yrs ago.
     
  15. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Joe Barry Carroll was actually a pretty good player until age caught up with him (which it did prematurely due to his inattention to conditioning). Unlike Fultz he gave the Warriors four pretty good years until he drifted off to Italy and then turned in a couple of more half-hearted (but still decent) seasons after his return.

    So, yeah, even if the Kings make the playoffs this year (which they won't), this is still the worst trade for a #1 pick ever as Philly is going to get nothing for Tatum and whomever.
     
  16. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, everyone had Bennet as a mid to late lottery pick in what was widely viewed as the worst draft since 2000. It was so bad that Marcus Smart was in the conversation for #1 along with Oladipo. I was expecting the Cavs to go for Oladipo, so I was as shocked as anyone else when they went for Bennett.
     
  17. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    JBC had one of the games all time great announcer nicknames in Joe Barely Cares.
     
  18. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    I was thinking that it would be Oladipo or Porter, which certainly puts an interesting "what if" spin on that whole Cavs era. If they take one of those guys do they still end up with #1 the following season? If so, do they select Wiggins or do they take a stab at Embiid with their backcourt set? Does Lebron still sign there and do they feel as comfortable moving those pieces for Love? It's almost as if blowing that pick paved the way for their future success.
     
  19. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    The funny thing about the Bennett draft is that it ended up producing 3 or 4 franchise guys (Giannis, Jokic, Oladipo and Gobert).
     
  20. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, he was definitely a guy that played himself into shape over the first quarter of the season, but during the pre-Italy years he got up and down the court quite swiftly for a seven footer and was a pretty good offensive player. It was hardly his fault that Golden State was a tire fire in those days.

    Regardless, while the Warriors traded a hall of famer to swap picks (which netted Boston two top 50 all timers), they at least got something out of the exchange. Philly? Not so much. And if Boston gets to add Cam Reddish to Tatum as a result of the deal, this could end up a similarly historical theft given that Markelle Fultz is well on his way to getting the LaRue Martin Award renamed.
     
  21. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Oladipo was long time coming, neither Porter nor Oladipo as rookies would have impacted the dumpster fire that was the Cavs' organization. And, obviously, Embiid would have done nothing for them. Honestly, drafting Embiid would likely have saved the franchise, because someone that dominant might have prevented the breakup of the Cavs.
     
  22. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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  23. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Either I’m misjudging Fultz’ market value or this writer has lost his mind.




    “But what would be the cost of acquiring Fultz? He’s still a former No. 1 overall draft pick and he will likely not come cheap.

    The 76ers aren’t looking to add salary — the Pistons would have to shed salary to take on Fultz’s $8.3 million to avoid luxury tax concerns.

    Could a future first-round pick and a Pistons salary get it done?

    Doubtful.”
     
  24. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    One report I saw guessed at Ish Smith, Reggie Bullock and maybe a 2nd, so I think the first is probably a bit optimistic if a return.
     
  25. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    2 expiring deals and a mid-2nd for optics purposes sounds like the max for a team that doesn’t care about taking on next years $9.4m. I still don’t touch this player but all it takes is one to take a $9m flier I suppose.
     
  26. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Since this story is coming from the Liberty Ballers website, I'd expect it to be either a planted article by a 76ers exec or hopeful speculation.
    If Woj confirms Detroit/Orlando offer is real, I'd take it more seriously.

    A 1st round pick from Orlando or Detroit + talent? Sixers should jump at that, move on from Fultz distraction, and pin the blame on Collar-angelo
     
  27. JohnnyTheBone

    JohnnyTheBone Member SoSH Member

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    This is reminiscent of the "First-Round-Pick-For-Jahlil Okafor" fiction that was perpetrated by Philly for years, even after he was a known bust. Fultz's career is on the same trajectory, and I think Philly's return will be similar to what they received for Okafor: bupkis.
     
    #1977 JohnnyTheBone, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  28. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    If he gets traded, and I'm increasingly doubtful he will, it'll be for a middling wing on an expiring, like Terrence Ross or KCP, or another draft bust like Josh Jackson. The window has longed closed to get back draft assets.
     
  29. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Philly won't get useful assets in a salary dump. So you can forget guys like Ross or the Pope. Probably not even Josh Jackson, because even though he's a bust relative to draft position, he's still a rotation player. There's a real chance Fultz is never even that.
     
  30. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    The fact that Jackson is still receiving NBA minutes makes his representation refusing to come to Boston a smart move. If he were here he wouldn’t even sniff the floor.
     
  31. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    What would have happened to Jaylen had he been drafted by Phoenix? (Time Lord might be an even better hypothetical.)
     
  32. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not sure what that has to do anything. He was clearly Ainge's Plan B if Tatum was off the board at #3. And if Tatum weren't here, then Josh Jackson likely is getting time.
     
  33. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Also who knows what Josh Jackson would be with Stevens and Ainge's encouragement and advice and Marcus Smart and Al Horford (and others) up his ass for dogging it. I know that it sounds like I'm romanticizing the Boston clubhouse, but I'd bet a year's pay that it's more developmental in a hundred ways than Phoenix.
     
  34. bowiac

    bowiac I've been living a lie. Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Why was Jackson clearly Ainge's plan B? The Celtics clearly put a lot of weight in pre-draft workouts, and didn't have a chance to work him out.

    Jackson just seemed like such a low-upside prospect at the time that I have a hard time seeing Ainge bite.
     
  35. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    873
    Yes, any trade scenario has to be built on the assumption that he at least gets on the floor again. Fultz injured and/or mentally unfit to play is not a trade-able asset.
     
  36. AMcGhie

    AMcGhie Set Adrift on Memory Bliss SoSH Member

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    From Candace Buckner in the Washington Post: No one knows what’s up with Markelle Fultz

    Maybe the problem isn't Fultz, but the people around him.
     
  37. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    873
    Just read the same article and the stories about his trainer and mom are just bizarre. The "Bambi" nickname, the chastising of coaches, the non-disclosure agreements. Granted, I'm sure if you dug deep enough into most NBA players' lives there would be some weird protective family members and hanger-ons, but the reality is they aren't subject to the same scrutiny as a no. 1 pick in a major media market that can't get on the court. I feel bad for him.
     
    #1987 cheech13, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  38. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    That story sounds off all sorts Todd Marinovich alarms.
     
  39. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    They were pretty clear when they traded back that they were confident that their guy would be on the board at #3, do you really think that Ainge and Stevens had JJ #1 on their board at any time? His upside comp was Andre Iguodala, a nice player, but not the kind of guy you pick #1.

    I could see them wanting a fallback if Tatum were gone, and I always assumed that that was why they wanted to work him out. I refuse to believe that they had him #1 at any point.
     
  40. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    Unless and until I hear him say otherwise, I'll just assume that if Tatum was gone, Ainge would have taken Mitchell.
     
  41. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, I figured that Jackson and Mitchell were in the running, mostly because there was a rumor at the draft that they were looking for a late lottery pick for Mitchell.
     
  42. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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  43. oumbi

    oumbi Member SoSH Member

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  44. GeorgeCostanza

    GeorgeCostanza Member SoSH Member

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    I understand that all we know about his situation is superficial at best but it probably wouldn’t hurt the kid to get some new representation
     
  45. TripleOT

    TripleOT Member SoSH Member

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    Okafor should be featured in "Who He Play For." I had to google it.
     
  46. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    For years? He was a legitimate member of the all-rookie team, and was traded in his third season last year after averaging 20/8 per 36 over his first two seasons.

    I wouldn’t disagree that he’s a bust for the #3 pick, but we’re not really in much of a position to throw stones with Jaylen on our team, who’s less than a year younger than Okafor.
     
  47. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    I know Jaylen is down this year, but are we really comparing a guy that was a first/second option with solid defense on a team that was within a good quarter from making the NBA Finals to Jahlil Okafor? Really?
     
  48. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    He’s in year 3. He’s got a career TS% of .540. He’s 94th out of 100 SG in ORPM. He was the #3 pick in the draft. Yeah, I really am.
     
  49. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    But wasn't the problem with Okafor that his game didn't really fit the way the NBA is now? That he could put up numbers but probably not on a winning team?

    I don't think that's the issue with Brown.

    Do you think the market for Brown, if he was on it, would essentially be ZERO, as it was for Okafor?
     
  50. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    The problem with Okafor was that he got into a fight on video, hurt his knee, and the new GM who didn’t draft him didn’t really want him. Whether 538 decided he didn’t “fit the new NBA”was kind of secondary. He’s still probably a passable NBA center if he makes any attempt to rebound and play d. He’s played pretty well over the last few games being pressed into service in NO.

    What’s Jaylen’s future outside of Boston as an SG who can’t shoot, can’t hit FT, and has about a 1:1 assist:TO? Dunno.
     

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