Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

DJnVa

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Watched on phone but some (most?) of those seemed to be the fall away that he was hitting previously. Still interested to see what he looks like from FT line or three point range.

Still pulling for him.
 

BigSoxFan

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From what I’m hearing, he is not expected to be back this year and ownership is concerned about his long-term health (mental and physical).
 

PedroKsBambino

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I don't know how anyone could be anything but concerned about the situation at this point. That does not mean he's finished, or that he was a bad selection, but geez---if missing a year like this isn't concerning I'm not sure what would be.
 

bigq

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From what I’m hearing, he is not expected to be back this year and ownership is concerned about his long-term health (mental and physical).
Yikes can you imagine if the Celtics has picked him and this had played out in Boston?
 

The Needler

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Probably not much worse than Philly. Fortunately they have had other sports stories to focus on for the past few months...
I disagree. The Philly media treated this story with kid gloves for months. It's only in the last few weeks that they've started to rattle some cages. The Fultz watch would have been 24/7 in Boston, and Shaughnessy and his sports radio counterparts would have been spreading bile and blame from the beginning, and lathering themselves up over how well some of the other guys were playing.
 

HomeRunBaker

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From what I’m hearing, he is not expected to be back this year and ownership is concerned about his long-term health (mental and physical).
We all can see it as well. If someone posted here that the Sixers front office is excited and optimistic about his return it would be laughed off the page. Some people thought we'd have Isaiah and Fultz in the backcourt this year.......instead there is a real chance that each is out of the league next year.
 

BigSoxFan

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We all can see it as well. If someone posted here that the Sixers front office is excited and optimistic about his return it would be laughed off the page. Some people thought we'd have Isaiah and Fultz in the backcourt this year.......instead there is a real chance that each is out of the league next year.
Yup. And my source is someone who has spoken directly with a minority owner on the team. Nothing here is surprising to any of us NBA superfans, and things could certainly change since it’s a fluid situation, but this really could be a total loss for Philly. The cost of Fultz not figuring this out would potentially be crippling:

Nothing from #1 pick
Nothing from Sac’s 2019 pick
Opportunity cost of Tatum’s career

I mean...ouch.
 

LondonSox

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We all can see it as well. If someone posted here that the Sixers front office is excited and optimistic about his return it would be laughed off the page. Some people thought we'd have Isaiah and Fultz in the backcourt this year.......instead there is a real chance that each is out of the league next year.
Really? His money is a sunk cost next year and you think they just give up on him?

It seems like everyone assumed he would just suddenly start shooting again, and that was incorrect. And it's put them in a hard place for PR and not contradicting previous comments or admitting errors.

It seems like they started rebuilding his shot from the ground up while ago, hence the videos of him not releasing the ball and shooting in the paint.

We shall see, saying he'll be cut? Ok that's a take. A hot one.
 

DannyDarwinism

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From what I’m hearing, he is not expected to be back this year and ownership is concerned about his long-term health (mental and physical).
The “and physical” part is interesting in that it belies the theory that this is a pure case of the yips caused by him independently tinkering with his shot. But it still doesn’t really add up to me. A scapular imbalance wouldn’t be a long term concern, and if there was something structural in his shoulder that potentially threatened his career, why the hell do you have him out there trying to rebuild his shot before you’re confident his shoulder is stable?

For the record, BigSoxFan, if I recall correctly, you’ve cited connections to the Philly F.O. before, right?
 

BigSoxFan

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The “and physical” part is interesting in that it belies the theory that this is a pure case of the yips caused by him independently tinkering with his shot. But it still doesn’t really add up to me. A scapular imbalance wouldn’t be a long term concern, and if there was something structural in his shoulder that potentially threatened his career, why the hell do you have him out there trying to rebuild his shot before you’re confident his shoulder is stable?

For the record, BigSoxFan, if I recall correctly, you’ve cited connections to the Philly F.O. before, right?
Yes, I know someone who has direct access to the ownership group and the FO. Sometimes it yields info and other times not (ie, had no idea about Fultz trade until it happened). This connection enabled me to go to Practice Facility opening, couple of the recent drafts (got to meet Adam Silver backstage and he was just an awesome, genuine guy).

And from what I’m hearing, majority of concern is on the mental side. The hope is a summer of rehab will get him better and he’ll participate in and do well in the Summer League and basically will have just lost a year...but there is no guarantee of a fix.

Rooting for Fultz but it seems like even people really close to the situation are puzzled by it.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Really? His money is a sunk cost next year and you think they just give up on him?

It seems like everyone assumed he would just suddenly start shooting again, and that was incorrect. And it's put them in a hard place for PR and not contradicting previous comments or admitting errors.

It seems like they started rebuilding his shot from the ground up while ago, hence the videos of him not releasing the ball and shooting in the paint.

We shall see, saying he'll be cut? Ok that's a take. A hot one.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. He doesn't have to be cut to not play in the league next year.....the Sixers don't have to "give up" on Fultz for him to never see an NBA floor during a game. You cannot put a player on an NBA court that resembles anything close to what Fultz looks like right now as he has a long way to go. I don't see much progress in the work from the clips I've seen but as was said above this is a fluid situation. Like Isaiah, each "should" get a shot to play next season but each also have their own severe challenges ahead of them to stick following a successful return.
 

LondonSox

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I apologize if I wasn't clear. He doesn't have to be cut to not play in the league next year.....the Sixers don't have to "give up" on Fultz for him to never see an NBA floor during a game. You cannot put a player on an NBA court that resembles anything close to what Fultz looks like right now as he has a long way to go. I don't see much progress in the work from the clips I've seen but as was said above this is a fluid situation. Like Isaiah, each "should" get a shot to play next season but each also have their own severe challenges ahead of them to stick following a successful return.
Oh I got you as in he still can't shoot so cant play him. Yes for sure possible.
 

cheech13

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This may be a really stupid question, but I haven't seen it addressed anywhere: If it's the yips, does Fultz know that? Would the team tell him if that's what they determined? In other words, if a guy thinks his problems were caused by injury but you think it's mental, do you play along at the risk of damaging him even further with the truth?
 

LondonSox

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Personally I think the yips is only a hindsight diagnosis.
If they fix it it's not the yips. If not it is.
In this case, there seems to have been some pain. Whether it resulted from his shot change, or his shot changed as a result only he may know.

It's not unheard of for the brain to fight you to try to stop doing something that hurt, but now doesn't. I have dislocated my shoulder multiple times and even now it's ok post surgery I still sleep on the other side, have changed my posture and changed how I do a number of things. Changing them back is really hard. I personally haven't managed (or tried that hard).
As per the link I put above from a specialist on Reddit it happens.

I personally think they only really realized they needed to start from scratch on the shot relatively recently. They don't want to admit that. No one on fultz side wants to admit they tinkered with his shot.
Rather than trying to do the best for the kid everyone is covering their asses.

So if he doesn't play again, it's def the yips. If he does, it wasn't. Helpful!
 

tims4wins

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If they didn’t rebuild the shot for say Ben Simmons it really doesn’t make sense to me that they would for another #1 pick. This is too weird.
 

snowmanny

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Personally I think the yips is only a hindsight diagnosis.
If they fix it it's not the yips. If not it is.
In this case, there seems to have been some pain. Whether it resulted from his shot change, or his shot changed as a result only he may know.

It's not unheard of for the brain to fight you to try to stop doing something that hurt, but now doesn't. I have dislocated my shoulder multiple times and even now it's ok post surgery I still sleep on the other side, have changed my posture and changed how I do a number of things. Changing them back is really hard. I personally haven't managed (or tried that hard).
As per the link I put above from a specialist on Reddit it happens.

I personally think they only really realized they needed to start from scratch on the shot relatively recently. They don't want to admit that. No one on fultz side wants to admit they tinkered with his shot.
Rather than trying to do the best for the kid everyone is covering their asses.

So if he doesn't play again, it's def the yips. If he does, it wasn't. Helpful!
I don't understand this. Why can't "the yips" be fixed? I'd actually bet that it is something yippy and that it will be fixed. At this point is he physically injured enough that he shouldn't be playing? If no (and I'm presuming it's no) it's some version of "yips" wherein he can't get back to his normal mechanics. Maybe because he's over-compensating for something minor or something that has passed (as you discuss), or he's overthinking, or he's getting bad advice, or something doesn't feel right even though everything is pretty much OK, or there's some inexplicable Blass-ian block, or he tried to change his shot for some reason and screwed himself up, or whatever; to me they all fall in basically that same category.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't understand this. Why can't "the yips" be fixed? I'd actually bet that it is something yippy and that it will be fixed. At this point is he physically injured enough that he shouldn't be playing? If no (and I'm presuming it's no) it's some version of "yips" wherein he can't get back to his normal mechanics. Maybe because he's over-compensating for something minor or something that has passed (as you discuss), or he's overthinking, or he's getting bad advice, or something doesn't feel right even though everything is pretty much OK, or there's some inexplicable Blass-ian block, or he tried to change his shot for some reason and screwed himself up, or whatever; to me they all fall in basically that same category.
From one perspective, the "yips" can't be fixed because they aren't a physical problem that can be "fixed" - it's a psychological issue that interferes with physical movement.

Not sure if that is consensus. I think the "yips" happen more frequently in golf and there's a lot of chatter about the cause and what to do about it.

Here's a couple of science-type articles on the subject: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-top-athletes-suddenly-develop-yips-choke-under-pressure/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283880366_The_yips_in_sport_A_systematic_review
 

Imbricus

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A lot of people here seem to be convinced it's the yips. I'm not. I suppose it's possible, but I've seen physical conditions where the pain is real and the restriction of movement is real, but the cause is baffling. It can happen with knee pain, where patients have intense pain but an MRI and X-rays show nothing wrong. Personally, a couple of years ago I had a frozen shoulder and was surprised that imaging tests showed nothing wrong -- I was convinced I had torn a tendon or ligament. During that time, I probably would have shot foul shots about the same way as Markelle Fultz is right now. Then, one day, it just went away (which is normal for frozen shoulder). The human body is a complex, mysterious thing.
 

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Imbricus

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Great article, thanks. So now they're saying "scapula dyskinesis."
Abnormal movement of the shoulder blade (scapula) is known as scapula dyskinesis. This occurs in a variety of shoulder problems. It is an important sign of an underlying shoulder disorder and a guide to shoulder rehabilitation.
Doesn't sound like the yips. Sounds more like he's got a baffling underlying problem with his shoulder. But I'm sure there'll be more coming out on this. I do hope he works through it. Seems like a really good kid.
 

slamminsammya

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He's looking better. Theres some video of him shooting, and making, threes. And the shot, while not perfect, is looking less ridiculous. But there is still a hint of Shawn Marion low release mechanics.
 

Sox Puppet

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Bumping this because it’s easily the most comprehensive piece I’ve seen on this story. It seems like a few folks here haven’t read it. You should.
That's a good article. It also makes a point that I wondered about myself:

... while paths back from injury are not linear, they usually are at least logical. A player who returns from an ACL tear, for example, might show some hesitation to plant and explode off that leg too hard early on. They may even lose a few inches on their vertical leap. What they don’t do is forget or fear how to jump altogether.
Supposing someone tinkered with Fultz's shot and messed up his shoulder (or his mind), what's to prevent them from saying "never mind, we screwed up. Go back to your old shooting form and we won't bother you about it again"?

An analogy could be: a baseball pitcher changes his mechanics, realizes that the new motion makes his arm or shoulder a little stiff and uncomfortable (though not majorly damaged), and then decides go back to the original motion.

It seems unlikely that the pitcher would somehow forget his own "natural" motion, or how to throw a baseball in general.
 

sezwho

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Yet this happens all the time.

edit: I haven't seen it in basketball though, at least outside of the FT line.
Perhaps because it’s one of the few (only?) hoops activities which are isolated and happen slowly enough for your ‘conscious’ mind to get in the way?
 

Marciano490

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Yet this happens all the time.

edit: I haven't seen it in basketball though, at least outside of the FT line.
I was wondering if it’d ever happened to a FG kicker, but I feel like they get cut so quickly there’d be no chance to miss multiple attempts in a row.
 

Jimbodandy

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I was wondering if it’d ever happened to a FG kicker, but I feel like they get cut so quickly there’d be no chance to miss multiple attempts in a row.
It certainly happens to kickers. Hell, the league practically has a mandatory timeout to "freeze" the kicker before any significant kicks. That timeout is specifically taken in the hope that the kicker gets lost in his own head during that 30 seconds.

As you note, kickers in general are more fungible, so they are usually cut fast. It's probably worthless to speculate about what percentage of those cuts are mechanics and mental, although the former is probably the majority.
 

BigSoxFan

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It certainly happens to kickers. Hell, the league practically has a mandatory timeout to "freeze" the kicker before any significant kicks. That timeout is specifically taken in the hope that the kicker gets lost in his own head during that 30 seconds.

As you note, kickers in general are more fungible, so they are usually cut fast. It's probably worthless to speculate about what percentage of those cuts are mechanics and mental, although the former is probably the majority.
Nate Freese was a really good college kicker for BC and I think he made every kick his last year. The Lions drafted him and gave him multiple chances to succeed and he basically shanked like 60-70% of his kicks in the NFL. In college, he was as automatic as it gets. In the pros, he was a headcase and never got another shot. Aguayo is another example of this. I think the pressure of the NFL got to both of them and sure there are plenty of others.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I was wondering if it’d ever happened to a FG kicker, but I feel like they get cut so quickly there’d be no chance to miss multiple attempts in a row.
Our very own Scott Missen' Sisson probably had the yips. Scott Norwood never recovered after the SB.

It really is the whole isolation thing. I also wonder how many times we don't see yips. We didn't notice Jon Lester to first until well into his career. I also think one could make a compelling argument that Shaq or Dwight Howard had/have the yips at the FT line.
 

Marciano490

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Our very own Scott Missen' Sisson probably had the yips. Scott Norwood never recovered after the SB.

It really is the whole isolation thing. I also wonder how many times we don't see yips. We didn't notice Jon Lester to first until well into his career. I also think one could make a compelling argument that Shaq or Dwight Howard had/have the yips at the FT line.
It’s a bit of a broad term I guess. I knew a guy who in sparring would take down Olympians and top ten fighters. Then he’d go to a local amateur show and get tight as hell and eke our decisions over bums. I don’t know if that’s the yips per se, but same genre at least.
 

Jimbodandy

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It’s a bit of a broad term I guess. I knew a guy who in sparring would take down Olympians and top ten fighters. Then he’d go to a local amateur show and get tight as hell and eke our decisions over bums. I don’t know if that’s the yips per se, but same genre at least.
Obviously "the yips" is not a medical diagnosis, but I think that a general fear or tightness is a different thing entirely. Performance anxiety sucks. But the yips is the inability to make your brain perform the most basic of tasks, ones that you performed perfectly fine before. Jon Lester being able to paint the black in the mid-90s, but not throw successfully to first base on a comebacker--that sort of thing. At least in Lester's case, it's not a primary part of his job (like Ankiel).

Calling something a "scapular dyskenesis" is a nice way of providing cover to a problem that's between his ears. His shoulder is not mechanically preventing him from doing anything, according to the staff there. And it's not performance anxiety. If it were, those candid videos of him on the court would show a guy who can light up the scoreboard without fans around. I feel terrible for the kid.

Frankly, it must be the most horrifying thing that a player can go through. Maybe the whole vertigo thing compares, but I can't think of anything else. If Fultz had a broken foot or something, at least they would have a time-tested recovery plan that he could focus on. I remember hearing about Bobby Carpenter's knee recovery and thinking about how horrible that must have been. But at least Carpenter could blame his leg and wasn't potentially blaming himself for not being able to snap out of it.
 

the moops

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Shot some hoops at the Y today. After my first missed shot, I got god damn Markelle Fultz's name in my head. Kept tossing up bricks, then started aiming everything .Had to revert to layups and shooting as fast as possible in order to not think about what I was doing. So thanks Markelle. Your yips have resulted in a 43 year old bearded dude in Saint Paul, MN having really bad thoughts about you
 

Kliq

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According to Derek Bodner of The Athletic, Fultz will come off the bench and serve as the backup to Simmons; with McConnell switching to an off-ball role with the second unit. Expect him to play about 14 mpg going forward. Apparently he came into Brown's office and said that he was ready to play.
 

SumnerH

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It certainly happens to kickers. Hell, the league practically has a mandatory timeout to "freeze" the kicker before any significant kicks. That timeout is specifically taken in the hope that the kicker gets lost in his own head during that 30 seconds.
That's not a great example to show that it actually happens. Most of the studies seems to indicate that icing the kicker is essentially worthless, and there's either no statistical difference or a slight improvement in kicking percentage for kickers who are “iced”. Anecdotally, Vinatieri said that it was especially helpful to get to take a practice kick on the field (and judge the wind) if the opponent iced right at the snap count.

I'm not saying the yips don't exist for kickers, but the existence of icing timeouts isn't the best evidence for it.
 

DJnVa

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Wow. Go Markelle!
I'm torn.

Sixers are a rival, so I want them to lose. However, I want them (or someone) to catch the Cavs for 3rd. But I don't want to face a Sixers team with a "good" Fultz. But I kinda want the kid to perform. I guess maybe root for his shot to look okay, but still only go like 1 for 6 from the floor?

Also: This game is on NBATV.
 

benhogan

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I'm torn.

Sixers are a rival, so I want them to lose. However, I want them (or someone) to catch the Cavs for 3rd. But I don't want to face a Sixers team with a "good" Fultz. But I kinda want the kid to perform. I guess maybe root for his shot to look okay, but still only go like 1 for 6 from the floor?

Also: This game is on NBATV.
pre-Celtic/Sun appetizer

76ers 5 pt favorite

We want the Sixers to be the 3 seed, the better matchup for the C's. plus a Cavs v Raptors series would be a bloodbath.

Watching Markelle could be cringe-worthy tonight. All eyes will be on him, not expecting much.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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This has me worried.

A day or two after his coach basically says it's all on him when he's ready to play, hes playing. I hope hes not rushing this.
 

Jimbodandy

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That's not a great example to show that it actually happens. Most of the studies seems to indicate that icing the kicker is essentially worthless, and there's either no statistical difference or a slight improvement in kicking percentage for kickers who are “iced”. Anecdotally, Vinatieri said that it was especially helpful to get to take a practice kick on the field (and judge the wind) if the opponent iced right at the snap count.

I'm not saying the yips don't exist for kickers, but the existence of icing timeouts isn't the best evidence for it.
You are certainly correct. Icing does not work, but I think that people do it specifically because they think that it might. Or at least it started that way, and now coaches do it pro forma.
 

DJnVa

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76ers 5 pt favorite

We want the Sixers to be the 3 seed, the better matchup for the C's. plus a Cavs v Raptors series would be a bloodbath.

Watching Markelle could be cringe-worthy tonight. All eyes will be on him, not expecting much.
I'd rather the Pacers get the 3 and Cavs/Sixers get 4/5
 

terrynever

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Be funny if Fultz somehow makes the 76ers' second team a bit deeper. Everything else is going right for them. Why not Fultz, in a limited role?
 

DJnVa

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Be funny if Fultz somehow makes the 76ers' second team a bit deeper. Everything else is going right for them. Why not Fultz, in a limited role?
If everything was going right for them Fultz would be on game #73, not #5.