Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Has anyone ever come back from this? I know someone mentioned Anderson. What was Greinke like under pressure when anxious? Was he missing by a ton or just giving up a lot of runs, and how’d he get better?
Salty came back from his yips when throwing to second. Steve Sax got over his yips of throwing to first. It's not unheard of to get over it. At least in other sports.

Two things are unequivocally true right now. Fultz needs to see a sports physciatrist, and the 76ers have handled this fucking horribly.
 

Ed Hillel

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ARod had the yips for about a month, throwing from third to first, and got over it. And that dude is as self-conscious as they come. The problem generally is that the longer it lasts, the more difficult it is to fix. Imagine it like whacking a gong - it takes a while to ease down and every time there’s an added stresser it’s like whacking it again.
 

Fishy1

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There's less stigma these days about handling anxiety issues with a professional. I would think that would help.

But then again, not if his organization is openly putting pressure on him in the media.
 

mauf

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Has anyone ever come back from this? I know someone mentioned Anderson. What was Greinke like under pressure when anxious? Was he missing by a ton or just giving up a lot of runs, and how’d he get better?
Ironically, it seems like it’s more difficult to treat anxiety that only affects one life activity (the “yips”) than anxiety that is crippling. Greinke was in the latter camp — too ill to pitch for quite a while, but when he was well enough to take the mound, there was nothing wrong with his game.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't know that the Sixers are handling this poorly per se - this is essentially unprecedented territory. Most non-hardcore baseball fans would have been hard pressed to name Rick Ankiel at the time of his struggles whereas even casual sports fans know Markelle Fultz. The fact is that, even on page 18 of this thread, we still don't know the exact nature of what is ailing Fultz and we have little in the way of what the team is doing to address it outside of Brown's comments. So it appears that to date, they have given him decent cover. The big question now is whether Brown's comments hurt Fultz ability to get himself right.
 

DJnVa

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I don't know that the Sixers are handling this poorly per se - this is essentially unprecedented territory.
By not publicly commenting about his shot when everyone can see what's going on.

Say he's injured or whatever, and don't comment and don't have him shooting in the background when it's obvious reporters are taking videos to post on twitter.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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By not publicly commenting about his shot when everyone can see what's going on.

Say he's injured or whatever, and don't comment and don't have him shooting in the background when it's obvious reporters are taking videos to post on twitter.
I agree - that's why Brown's comments over the weekend/today are unfortunate. The shooting in the background thing is another issue that is somewhat unavoidable barring the team preventing him from practicing with them . We, in this thread, and other NBA-heads are guilty of analyzing each seconds long snippet like its the damn Zapruder film. That said, if they don't comment on his situation they are doing him and the team a huge favor imho. Now everyone is going to analyze his shooting motion in granular detail for a long time. Its difficult to imagine how that will help Fultz make his way back.
 

benhogan

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This is entering Ian Baker-Finch territory.
This is the ultimate kick in the teeth. The yips are ugly, shanking is a game ender.
(see Bernard Langer's career vs Ian Baker-Finch)

Wonder if they'll let Markelle call games on NBA TV next season with Grant Hill, Greg Anthony and Dennis Scott: "players only!!!"?

would he even qualify as a player?
 

Sportsbstn

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Most non-hardcore baseball fans would have been hard pressed to name Rick Ankiel at the time of his struggles whereas even casual sports fans know Markelle Fultz.
I don’t know about that. Ankiel’s meltdown came when we was a 21 year old phenom pitching game 1 of the NLDS against Greg Maddux. I’d say plenty of casual sports fans knew him.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yea, you can praise Ainge for wanting Tatum over Fultz, but I think it is a huuuuuge stretch to think that Ainge's thinking had anything to do with Fultz and his yips
The Cs were worried about Fultz's makeup. See https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-were-concerned-about-markelle-fultz-not-being-a-winner/. And when they "too many red flags" it sounds like there were multiple issues.

Not saying anyone would think it would go this far but him sitting out at UW for an unknown injury I'm sure was concerning once the Cs reviewed Fultz's medical records.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I don’t know about that. Ankiel’s meltdown came when we was a 21 year old phenom pitching game 1 of the NLDS against Greg Maddux. I’d say plenty of casual sports fans knew him.
Yeah, I think that comparison depends on the bar one is using for hardcore vs casual, as well as putting a little too much stock into Fultz simply being the #1 pick. Ankiel was a phenomenal on the biggest stage when he flamed out (as you say). Fultz played in relative obscurity at UW and barely played in the league when this hit. Someone I’d label a ‘casual’ sports fans probably knows nothing about this, at least the degree of issue at hand. He’s not exactly flaming out on the big stage and nationally televised, we’re talking about twitter videos of him at practice for a bad team and it’s not like it leads Sportscenter every night.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Yeah, I think that comparison depends on the bar one is using for hardcore vs casual, as well as putting a little too much stock into Fultz simply being the #1 pick. Ankiel was a phenomenal on the biggest stage when he flamed out (as you say). Fultz played in relative obscurity at UW and barely played in the league when this hit. Someone I’d label a ‘casual’ sports fans probably knows nothing about this, at least the degree of issue at hand. He’s not exactly flaming out on the big stage and nationally televised, we’re talking about twitter videos of him at practice for a bad team and it’s not like it leads Sportscenter every night.
Fultz was the number one pick in the 2017 NBA draft. Even casual sports fans know who is the first draft pick in the NBA. Rick Ankiel was selected in the second round of the '97 MLB draft. I strongly suspect that most casual sports fans don't even know who the top selection is in any MLB draft let alone the one the year that Ankiel was drafted (note that posters like you don't count).

Ankiels struggles were on a big stage but his profile, outside of hardcore baseball fans, was nothing like that of Fultz. And that is even setting aside the difference between then and now in terms of social media.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Ask a casual sports fan who Anthony Bennet is.

Again, this comes down to your definition of ‘casual’. I know many many people I’d label above what I would call casual sports fans that might know who he is but have no idea what’s going on with him. They would surely know Rick Ankiel. It has nothing to do with draft pick #.

Fultz wasn’t in a major program, wasn’t in the tournament and beyond that was on the west coast. I think you’re being overly generous in the number of casual sports fans who have even come across his name much and ridiculously unrealistic in the number that have any idea why he’s not playing and whats going on. I’ve sent clips to a few guys I consider much more than casual and they had no idea.

If this was a guy that put in a couple years of high level play and this happened, yes I’d agree with you. He barely made many appearances and he wasn’t some kind of generational talent. He’s not Ryan Leaf or Jamarcus Russell. I think you’re putting way too much weight into what an average sports fan devoted to the nba draft. If the overall number one pick in the NHL draft suddenly couldn’t skate, do you think a casual fan would even notice?

Which is to say nothing of the Twitter aspect of this. If it weren’t for the social media aspect, nobody would even know hardly anything about this unless they followed local media. So you’re basing your premise on a casual sports fan following those outlets.

Ankiel was a phenom and looked to be turning into a stud for a major franchise and on the national stage, in the playoffs, all of a sudden starting throwing pitches to the backstop. In an era when people watched more sports. And it was covered extensively by media outlets like ESPN back when people still watched it.

Markelle Fultz was a top pick that never did anything, played for a shit college team, got hurt early and had repercussions playing for a shit team that no one watches and his issues have had no media coverage unless you’re on Twitter.

It’s not really a comparison imo, but sure, the guy having a meltdown in the nlcs is way below the guy who can’t shoot in practice, purely based on draft pick slot.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Cs were worried about Fultz's makeup. See https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-were-concerned-about-markelle-fultz-not-being-a-winner/. And when they "too many red flags" it sounds like there were multiple issues.

Not saying anyone would think it would go this far but him sitting out at UW for an unknown injury I'm sure was concerning once the Cs reviewed Fultz's medical records.
Does anyone know if Celtics are still using Jon Niednagel? I have tended to think he's a quack, in spite of Ainge's apparent like of his methods, but in theory Fultz is the kind of situation where he might bring value.
 

Devizier

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Washington isn't Duke or UCLA but it definitely qualifies as a major program. Moreover, Fultz has been a consensus top three pick since before he started college ball, despite being a member of a particularly strong draft class. By contrast, Bennett was a reach who was picked number one by virtue of declaring during a dismal draft.

Draft-humping is a part of the NBA even moreso than it is MLB or NFL, which is saying something. People know who Fultz is.
 

sezwho

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Yea, you can praise Ainge for wanting Tatum over Fultz, but I think it is a huuuuuge stretch to think that Ainge's thinking had anything to do with Fultz and his yips
Its a similarly huuuuuuge stretch to deny it. Ainge keeps his counsel close to the vest, but his evaluation criteria has a very heavy personality profiling component and that very easily could have steered him away. I happen to think it did, but to be clear I'm stopping well short of Ainge anticipating this level of phantasmagoric meltdown.
 

JakeRae

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Washington isn't Duke or UCLA but it definitely qualifies as a major program. Moreover, Fultz has been a consensus top three pick since before he started college ball, despite being a member of a particularly strong draft class. By contrast, Bennett was a reach who was picked number one by virtue of declaring during a dismal draft.

Draft-humping is a part of the NBA even moreso than it is MLB or NFL, which is saying something. People know who Fultz is.
A lot of people know who Fultz is. That's a reasonable claim. That people didn't know who Ankiel was is not. He finished second in Rookie of the Year voting. He started game 1 of the NLDS and game 2 of the NLCS. I personally recall seeing it all over ESPN at a time where, while I was a Red Sox fan and followed baseball, I was probably much closer to a casual than hardcore fan (and at a time when my sports news came entirely from TV).

Ankiel's struggles were a headline sports story both in the fall of 2000 and the spring of 2001.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Washington isn't Duke or UCLA but it definitely qualifies as a major program. Moreover, Fultz has been a consensus top three pick since before he started college ball, despite being a member of a particularly strong draft class. By contrast, Bennett was a reach who was picked number one by virtue of declaring during a dismal draft.

Draft-humping is a part of the NBA even moreso than it is MLB or NFL, which is saying something. People know who Fultz is.
I’m not saying UW isn’t a major program. I’m saying his team sucked and they program hasn’t been relevant in a half decade. Draft humping isn’t something to be brought into a conversation about casual sports fans, almost by definition. For a casual fan to even register a college player, they generally need to at least even make the tournament or be consider a generational player. Fultz was neither.

And again, as noted by others as well, Ankiel was leading Sportscenter, was blowing up on the national stage in the playoffs and was considered a future ace. Fultz has done nothing and is having trouble at practice, it’s not being broadcast on tv.

I’m not even sure how this is a debate. And your last sentence is kind of my point here. Draft humping isn’t something you can apply to a casual sports fan. And an actual casual spots fan is most certainly going to be more aware of an NFL prospect than an NBA one.
 

Reverend

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Man, I’m glad the team got some rest, but this layoff between games has been brutal...

We definitely need the Celtics to play again if all you basketball geniuseseses are debating Rick Ankiel’s relative level of fame.

Not that it’s not impressive.... but I can’t wait for the next game. :)
 

JCizzle

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Man, I’m glad the team got some rest, but this layoff between games has been brutal...

We definitely need the Celtics to play again if all you basketball geniuseseses are debating Rick Ankiel’s relative level of fame.

Not that it’s not impressive.... but I can’t wait for the next game. :)
7:30 tonight! But unfortunately for those of us out of town, we have to listen to 'players only' on NBA TV instead of Mike and Tommy...welcome back C's indeed.:(
 

DJnVa

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7:30 tonight! But unfortunately for those of us out of town, we have to listen to 'players only' on NBA TV instead of Mike and Tommy...welcome back C's indeed.:(
Google reddit NBA Streams if you want a Tommy fix.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The Cs were worried about Fultz's makeup. See https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-were-concerned-about-markelle-fultz-not-being-a-winner/. And when they "too many red flags" it sounds like there were multiple issues.

Not saying anyone would think it would go this far but him sitting out at UW for an unknown injury I'm sure was concerning once the Cs reviewed Fultz's medical records.
Fultz missed a couple of games due to "knee soreness" after playing 40 minutes in the UCLA game(?) then returned, limped around for a couple games while leaving to head to the locker room in the last one only to return for the second half, drop 30 playing half speed with a limp, then shut it down. I'm not sure what is "unknown" but I watched those games and he absolutely had a leg injury. It was reported as a knee.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Setting aside who was/is more well known by "casual sports fans" between Ankiel and Fultz - and we will never be able to settle this debate though I think arguing about this in a basketball nerd forum on a baseball nerd board is essentially deep in the nerd weeds. As a side note, I polled three of my coworkers who are "casual sports fans", two in the late 40s/early 50s and one in his mid 30s and two of the three didn't know who either guy was...so point all of us! - I think Fultz has a much harder road to reinvention or whatever than Ankiel had.

After struggling as a pitcher, Ankiel was able to go back to the minors and quietly reinvent himself as a position player and went on to an MLB career, such as it was. Fultz can't really go to the G League as the scrutiny around him is almost certain to be heavy. He can't even go play with the Ball brothers in Lithuania. Instead, he needs to find a place where he too, can quietly rework his mechanics and regain his confidence. The world may want more 30 second snippets of his shooting motion (or more from actual games) but its about the last thing that he or the Sixers need at this point.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Fultz missed a couple of games due to "knee soreness" after playing 40 minutes in the UCLA game(?) then returned, limped around for a couple games while leaving to head to the locker room in the last one only to return for the second half, drop 30 playing half speed with a limp, then shut it down. I'm not sure what is "unknown" but I watched those games and he absolutely had a leg injury. It was reported as a knee.
What was (and is) unknown was (and is) the actual injury. We know Fultz had a sore knee and there was nothing structurally wrong but we don't know when it happened or what was injured. Here's a contemporaneous report from the Sixersense blog (now looking somewhat prophetic) and some of Romar's quotes (particularly in one of the click through articles) sounds like they could have said by Brown about Fultz's shoulder.

In other words, Fultz had a knee injury that was causing him.

No apparent cause.
No public diagnosis.
No definitive timetable.
No structural damage.
Doctors saying it's up to what he feels.
Etc.
 

Kliq

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To act like Ankiel is equal to Fultz in the age of social media is ridiculous to me.
 

Marciano490

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I never played basketball; I’d be curious to hear how shooting is coached. Especially at high levels with computer tech. I’d imagine it’s a lot like pitching in terms of analysis and duplication, but in terms of actual practice - assuming no injury - why is he even being allowed to shoot with such improper form?
 

SumnerH

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To act like Ankiel is equal to Fultz in the age of social media is ridiculous to me.
That's true, but only because Ankiel was clearly and obviously a vastly bigger deal on the national scene. Fultz is a draft pick who hardcore NBA fans know, he's not a national story.

People on SOSH wildly overestimate how much casual sports fans care or know about draft picks in sports they're not rabid about.

The NBA is ahead of other sports in terms of draft recognition for sure. And the idea that Ankiel as a draft pick was less well known than Fultz as a draft pick is obvious. Nobody disputes that.

But when Ankiel had his head issues, he was a pretty well known, borderline star pitcher playing regularly on national TV, including in the World Series. Even many casual sports fans who don't follow the sports that closely knew him. That's a lot more exposure than any draft pick outside a Lebron type ever had.

Fultz is still a (high) draft pick who's not known to anyone who doesn't follow the NBA prospects and draft fairly closely.

Kwame Brown was a #1 can't miss prospect hand selected by His Airness, Michael Jordan, himself. He was a way bigger national deal than Fultz. He's probably the second biggest draft prospect (after Lebron) in terms of buzz since 2000. And most non-NBA fans couldn't tell him from my grandmother.

Most sports fans just don't follow draft picks the way SOSHers do, and we wildly overrate their impact. I guarantee you the majority of even my NBA fan friends have little or no idea who Fultz is.
 

Euclis20

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Kwame Brown was a #1 can't miss prospect hand selected by His Airness, Michael Jordan, himself. He was a way bigger national deal than Fultz. He's probably the second biggest draft prospect (after Lebron) in terms of buzz since 2000. And most non-NBA fans couldn't tell him from my grandmother.
 

DJnVa

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The near air ball from like 12 feet at 21 seconds in is impressive. Release still seems slow.

Then the 45 seconds or whatever of foul shots where he missing as many as he makes.
 

rymflaherty

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I seem to have a very different recollection of Kwame Brown. He wasn’t even the concensus #1 Senior in high school.
It was a pick people questioned at the time, with the only real justification being, gambling on youth and upside in a draft where no one was a clear #1. Like the Bennett or Olowokandhi drafts. I guess the biggest difference with the Fultz selection is that this past draft was thought to be strong.

It really is a bizarre situation. For his own sanity I hope he figures it out. I don’t care how much money he’s guaranteed to bank, I wouldn’t want to be him at the moment and can’t imagine the psychological hell that is (or could turn out to be).
 

Reverend

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Video from 4 days ago. Better but he obviously has no confidence in it.

He looks a little bit less like a kid who isn’t quite strong enough to shoot jumpers trying to pretend he’s not really still using a set shot and trying to make it look like a jump shot style shot.

A little.
 

Valek123

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Timing is all over the place, one shot wrist is out in front, the next it's lagging like a sling shot. I have 8th graders with better shot tempo. He needs to shoot about 500 a day from within 10 feet to set the new mechanics, he is clearly not ready to extend out and require any lift. So weird... how did he get so damn broken?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Timing is all over the place, one shot wrist is out in front, the next it's lagging like a sling shot. I have 8th graders with better shot tempo. He needs to shoot about 500 a day from within 10 feet to set the new mechanics, he is clearly not ready to extend out and require any lift. So weird... how did he get so damn broken?
He needs to sit down in a chair and start rebuilding his shot from that point.
 

Fishy1

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This is one of those things that just brings home how horrible and perverse the internet can be. There's no good reason this should be happening so publicly except for our own entertainment. I suppose that's the case anytime a public figure is disgraced per no fault of their own. But that doesn't make it any better.
 

RetractableRoof

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This is one of those things that just brings home how horrible and perverse the internet can be. There's no good reason this should be happening so publicly except for our own entertainment. I suppose that's the case anytime a public figure is disgraced per no fault of their own. But that doesn't make it any better.
I agree in principle - but there are millions of reasons why this kid is in this fishbowl. Unfortunate as it may be, and maybe a 19 year old kid doesn't understand what he's signing on for, but that's the trade for a professional athlete.
 

Fishy1

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I agree in principle - but there are millions of reasons why this kid is in this fishbowl. Unfortunate as it may be, and maybe a 19 year old kid doesn't understand what he's signing on for, but that's the trade for a professional athlete.
No offense, but isn't this just a tautology -- it is what it is? -- I mean, I understand the state of affairs is the state of affairs.

It still blows. And it blows that the organization and the media are treating him like a piece of meat.

EDIT: I suppose there's nothing anyone can really say to my post other than "yeah, that does suck," and I see that you're pretty much doing that. Forgive me.
 

BigSoxFan

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Another video. Oof

This poor kid can’t shoot a normal FT. Seriously, just fix the damn form already. I’m not even a Sixers fan and this is really starting to annoy me. Unless you have monster hands, shooting a basketball is one of the easiest things to do in sports. And he literally doesn’t know how to do it anymore.
 

edoug

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His free throw form is very fixable. He appears to afraid of shooting an air ball. He just lifts his heels and flips the ball to the basket. The first thing I would tell him is that he has knees and shoulders, use them. Build a rhythm through to his elbow and wrist.
 
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E5 Yaz

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This poor kid can’t shoot a normal FT. Seriously, just fix the damn form already. I’m not even a Sixers fan and this is really starting to annoy me. Unless you have monster hands, shooting a basketball is one of the easiest things to do in sports. And he literally doesn’t know how to do it anymore.
There's going to be a great book written some day about this string of 76ers draft choices
 

RetractableRoof

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No offense, but isn't this just a tautology -- it is what it is? -- I mean, I understand the state of affairs is the state of affairs.

It still blows. And it blows that the organization and the media are treating him like a piece of meat.

EDIT: I suppose there's nothing anyone can really say to my post other than "yeah, that does suck," and I see that you're pretty much doing that. Forgive me.
Combine that with me saying up-thread that no kid deserves to be in this kind of a fishbowl (regardless of his team), and I'd like to think that I've shown some compassion for the kid. I certainly feel it - even if my words haven't been as clear as I'd like.
 

Ed Hillel

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His free throw form is very fixable. He appears to afraid of shooting an air ball. He just lifts his heels and flips the ball to the basket. The first thing I would tell him is that he has knees and shoulders, use them. Build a rhythm through to his elbow and wrist.
The problem is he appears to have the yips and none of this teaching matters if his brain causes him to panic the moment before release.