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Discussion in 'Breakfast with Gazza (with Sachmoneious Bullcrap)' started by Zomp, Aug 10, 2018.
Your new manager:
As a fan of the game, I want United to return to playing attractive attacking football. As a supporter of other clubs, I worry about United righting the ship, although from what I understand many of the problems are more systemic. I love Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku, and a few other United players and I want them to at least enjoy the game again.
Billy Haisley wrote about United over at Deadspin, and he points out that Poch is a pipedream for United because Spurs are currently in a better situation and Real and Barca (I know Poch said he'd never go) would roll out a red carpet for him to come back to Spain. Zizou might actually be a good fit for this United, although I think he's stated that he wants to be back at Juve or managing France. Jardim is out of a job from what I can tell at the moment. Normally I'd float a name like Simeone, but I think he might be staying at Atleti for a long time. I think Di Francesco has done a solid job at Roma and is worth considering.
As for Mou, he could certainly still find work in the club world, likely in Italy or Portugal if he chooses. But, I think it would be ideal for him to manage a national team. His strict and conservative approach suits the international game and he could still run circles around managers in that circuit. That being said, I wouldn't want him managing Argentina, but I think the US would be silly not to at least knock on his door. His cult of personality would likely be a hit for our media-driven culture here.
Hadn't thought of this, but you're right, it's awesome to think about. How insane would this be?
If only US Soccer had been more patient and didn't rush to snap up Berhalter...
This is the quote from Haisley:
Tottenham has a better squad right now, but to say it is a better situation and has a better outlook than United is ridiculous. I am not saying the board doesn't make a lot of mistakes. They do. But if they do it right, they could absolutely make a package that would entice Pochettino. Obviously, money is the first consideration. United could easily double his salary at Spurs. Secondly, if a Director of Football is hired that Pochettino likes (rumors are already flying that they want to get Paul Mitchel who Poch has worked closely with at Southampton and Spurs) then that could entice him as well. Thirdly, there have been stories at Poch being annoyed at the lack of net spend that Spurs have. Here that wouldn't be a problem. You could argue that Poch has done as well as he could with the Tottenham team, but at United he'd have a chance at building a perennial title challenging squad. The Real and Barca point is a decent one, but again he said he'd never manage Barca and rumors are point to Real going after Conte or Mourinho.
Pochettino should be the number 1 candidate. If they can't get him, Zidane would be most interesting because I honestly have no idea how good of a tactician he is. I could have managed Ronaldo, Kroos, and Modric to a few trophies.
No matter what, the club has to get a player's manager. Poch and Zidane fit that. Conte I don't think would.
Doesn't meet 1 of the only 2 requirements for the job.
You're correct about that, but the other point I've seen made is that Tottenham is essentially Pochettino FC right now. Why would he risk that?
Of course, there's also this:
This is an interesting one. What is Poch worth to Spurs? Not just in terms of how much to pay him, but how much to give him to reinforce the squad moving forwards? He'll do well to get top four this season and he didn't make any signings. That won't fly at the end of this season, and maybe Poch has some winter transfer targets. Seems he has a lot of leverage right now.
Could Poch leave for Old Trafford at the end of the season and take two or three players with him. Harry Kane in a Man U shirt? Stranger things have happened.
I'd like to see him stay at Spurs and keep building, but football is a cruel sport with little sentiment and loyalty. Levi knows this and doubtless has his abacus out as we speak.
As an Everton fan, I'm scared that Poch to ManU then means Silva to Spurs.
If I've got my Everton glasses on I think that Everton may be a better job in the near future (3-5 years out). The owners have signaled that they want to spend money AND build a new stadium, whereas Spurs seem reluctant to pay in the transfer market. With their core group being younger, Everton can be said to be on the way up whereas the current iteration of Spurs may have peaked.
You can all tell me to sit down and stop drinking now.
Well, you’re an Everton supporter so...
Interim appears to be Solskjær
If memory serves, Moyes was announced in similar unintended fashion
Apparently the Norwegian PM congratulated him on Twitter as well but has since deleted it
Maybe drink more because man are you gonna be disappointed.
Poch would be crazy to go to United. He can get paid if he wants in Spain and inherit far more talented rosters. I don’t think Zidane is coaching that collection either (nor do I rate him I hope they convince him somehow). I think the interim approach makes sense as you never know who will shake loose and right now United needs to figure out which players can be resurrected. Every player is playing for a job again and whichever manager takes over is going to need more non Mourinho tainted info to make decisions
I actually think Poch would not be a good fit at all at Man Utd unless they were totally willing to remake the club in his image, which I don't think they will. Poch is very much a my-way-or-the-high-way guy who hasn't really had to deal as much with strong egos and independent power centers in the dressing room. Partly that's because Spurs' best players were for the most part developed internally or bought cheaply (Kane, Eriksen, Alli), so they weren't big stars before Poch got there, and Levy mostly avoids the Mendes/Raiola clients. The players who have gotten too big for their britches (e.g. Walker, Rose, Alderweireld) have all gotten frozen out and lost power struggles, but Poch can get away with that at Spurs in a way he probably can't at United. It also helps a lot that Spurs' best player and tone-setter is an internal youth product with a strong work ethic. If Harry Kane isn't complaining about being underpaid (Kane's new deal is 150k/week, which he could probably double in a heartbeat at a richer club) or double fitness sessions or being played outside his preferred tactical role, it's hard for anyone else to complain.
Also, Pochetino's pressing system is an awful fit for Man Utd's current personnel. It would take him 18 months and a huge spend to sort out the deadwood, and they might go backwards at first. And United's crew of overpaid coddled millionaires may not take to Poch's notoriously tough fitness training very well. Poch spent his first year at Spurs weeding out all the players he didn't want, he'd have to do the same at Man Utd.
Of course, there are many millions of reasons why Poch might think that challenge is worth it.
Hahahaahaha. You Toffees are cute. Spurs have Champions League football, a brand-new stadium in London (assuming it ever actually opens), close to double Everton's revenue, and at least 5-6 players who are all better than any single player in Everton's current squad or anyone Everton is likely to sign in the near future. Everton's most expensive signing and best creative player is a Spurs cast-off that Spurs dumped because he couldn't get in the team (and he still wouldn't). Silva leaves for Spurs in a heartbeat if the option is there.
I don't understand the thought that says Spurs is Poch FC. He has repeatedly said he cannot buy the players he wants and that because of the new stadium he is operating on a restricted budget. That does not sound like someone who is in total control of his squad.
Of course he'd need a few seasons to get the deadwood out and tailor his team to his system. I'm not sure anyone would expect anything different. It's not like Mourinho wasn't given enough time, his team just went backwards over the course of a few seasons. "United's crew of overpaid coddled millionaires". Come on. Is there anyone who thinks that Mourinho coddled anyone? Are a few overpaid? Definitely.
I think players like Pogba, Rashford, Lindelof, and Martial would benefit greatly from him coming in. It's difficult to say the pressing system is an awful fit for the current personnel when Mourinho's philosophy was the exact opposite. How can we know if its a bad fit?
Look, it probably won't happen because I don't think Woodward has the intelligence to deal with Levy. But Poch should, and would, be interested in the job. At the end of the day I've gotten used to the board not doing anything right so I'm assuming during the summer we'll be hiring someone like....I dunno, Conte or Blanc. But the job is still desirable for the right type of manager.
Maybe this is a separate topic, but assuming every club had no manager what would be the most desirable football clubs to manage?
Similar to college football, there are perennial top programs that even on a dip are desirable due to their location, history resources (Alabama, Michigan, ND, Texas, etc), where there's probably a list of 5-10. Then there's a list of second tier where the current specifics can make programs better fits and more desirable.
What's that top Tier for football? Barca, Real Madrid, Bayern, Juventus are obvious non-English clubs, but I think ManU might be the only permanent English fixture right in that same tier. I agree that it'd be crazy for Poch not to strongly consider a move from Spurs to Manchester.
I don’t follow the EPL as fiercely as many here, but I haven’t been this confused since City’s initial spending spree led posters to proclaim those player we’re making a mistake - City may have been offerering more money, but it was a club without prestige.
Managers and players aren’t hot properties forever. Few clubs in the world can match United’s revenues. The issue has been their management. They are throwing spaghetti on the wall and wondering why it isn’t sticking. If control over the roster matters to Pochettino, he will get more of that at United than Madrid. Madrid holds a similar opinion to their managers as Billy Beane holds his. He would manage the players they want there and have no input.
United clearly has a higher ceiling than Spurs. I don’t even comprehend how anyone could think otherwise. Spurs at their best competes for the FA Cup and the top 4, while United would be on the shortlist of EPL and CL favorites.
Historically, Manchester United would be a much better coaching situation than Spurs. However, since Fergie left , United has finished 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, and where ever they end up this season, which I assume is probably going to be 6th. Now maybe they have only finished that low because of poor management and Poch would be able to turn it around with all of Man U’s money, but the fact is that since Fergie retired, Man U has pretty much consistently been outside of the Top 4.
I’d agree the United job is attractive due to the financial support; but it’s been a while since United was a top tier team on the same level as Barca, Real, City, Bayern and Juventus.
Right but nobody is arguing that. The argument is between Spurs and United. Since Fergie left, United as a club has underperformed. Spurs have arguably overperformed.
And the clubs you listed, only Barca, Bayern, and City are clearly above them. It wasn’t too long ago that Serie A was where coaches and players went to enjoy the last few seasons of their career. As far as Real goes, it’s certainly tempting but I could see some coaches staying away because of the demands of the job.
I’m arguing that as things currently stand, for Poch, it’s not that obvious that United is a job with a higher potential than Spurs right now. Yes there is more money; but United has had more money since Fergie left and they haven’t been an elite team under multiple managers, which to me that suggests that there is a problem at United beyond just the manager being a poor fit.
The current Spurs side is better but its really hard to see them challenging City or Liverpool in the next couple years, especially given their financial constraints, a number of aging players in the spine of the team, and the very real possibility of losing Eriksen.
United is dysfunctional and the current roster isn't ideal for Poch's system but their spending power and name brand attraction give them a much higher ceiling. Its not that hard to imagine United spending another $300-400M over the next couple years, actually getting it right this time in terms of what players are bought and how they're integrated into existing talent, and putting together a team capable of winning the league or making a run in the CL.
Listening to a podcast and just lol’d on a train- they called Jose “the Portuguese Pulis.”
Does there come a point where we can stop saying Spurs "overperformed" and ManU "underperformed" when Spurs have more points than them over the past 6 seasons and finished ahead of them 3 of the past 4?
That's *not* to say ManU doesn't have the resources to climb back over them, but maybe Spurs success shouldn't be treated as a fluke.
I think we’ll know Manchester United is serious again when Woodward is gently ushered away from the football side of their management structure back into the loving arms of only doing commercial deals.
United have vastly more resources than Spurs, but unless Poch or someone who knows about football and is simpatico with Poch is in control of those resources, the amount of good they can do is limited.
If Paul Mitchell or someone similar actually takes that role and if Woodward isn't still above him with the final say based on how the player fits into the Asian tire endorsement market, then I'd be worried as a fan of other clubs.
Philosophically: is there a diminishing return on money, as far as buying big-name players and trying to knit a team out of them?
The fantasy-team approach at United has been a failure. Not only are there guys like Pogba and Lukaku underachieving because the lack of a system fit (or lack of a system period), but you have guys like Alexis and Fred not even starting, who cost huge sums of money.
PSG is another team that spends gobs of money on superstars but can't seem to crest past a certain point. They're shoo-ins for the CL because they're so much stronger than the rest of their domestic league, but I've never felt like they were the best team in the world or the favorite to win the CL. I would call them underachievers relative to their spend.
City obviously can break the bank for whoever they want, but that team has "roleplayers" mixed in with the superstars who aren't within the top-ten names in the world at their positions, or whatever. You can say the same for RM, Barca, Bayern, etc.
This isn't stunning insight, I know.
Well city’s role players still cost ridiculous sums of money.
The biggest difference between city and teams like PSG and United are City cane up with a vision and plan years ago that they’ve stuck to and executed. Woodward has not stuck to any plan because he denied Mourinhos requests for transfers.
As much as Mourinho wasn’t a fit, Woodward is equally to blame. If you have a manager that has a certain way of playing and identifies certain players, you have to buy them. Looking back the season was doomed from preseason once they started battling on targets.
Hopefully Woodward, who to be fair is very good at the business side of things, hires a DoF and stays out of their way. The argument has always been with the money United has generated they should be competing every year. That hasn’t happened in a while but it certainly should with the right staff in place.
Te weird part to Paul Mitchell, for anyone who doesn't closely follow Spurs, he doesn't work well with Poch. Poch basically got him fired from Tottenham and took over control. ManU hiring him is a boon for Poch staying at Spurs.
Maybe he'd have more input at ManU than Madrid. But the comparison right now is ManU and Tottenham. He has full control and deals directly with Levy on all players. No board, no other player talent voices, just Poch and Levy. He's also one of the higher paid managers in the EPL. I'm sure ManU would raise the salary, but Spurs are paying him (they just don't pay for players).
I think it more likely he goes to Madrid in 2 years, he's talked frequently about eventually wanting to go back to Spain before taking the argentina national team job.
Southgate added to ManU’s shortlist per everyone on twitter.
Makes good sense to interview Southgate just to improve the scouting reports on the English player pool.
Martial signs a contract extension until 2024, with a club option to extend the deal for another season. Hard not to be ecstatic over the deal. We should be able to hold on to him for his seasons aged 23-27 and if someone like Real or Barca come calling near the end, he should still command a huge fee.
Credit to LVG. Most people had never heard of him before he was signed from Monaco. 50 million down the drain, as Tony Martial scores again.
I mean, would this have been possible under Jose? I don't think so.
Fellaini sold to China.
I'm surprised by this move. I don't think Fellaini is an awesome player or anything, but he was frequently selected to play in the MF. I guess OGS didn't expect to play him much and this saves United some GBP??
Fellaini was a Mourinho binky and now that Mourinho's gone, Solskjaer may think there's not much use for him. He's also 31, so getting any real cash for him is good business.
Ole's toughest stretch just got a whole lot tougher with Martial and Lingard both out for 2-3 weeks. His tactical acumen will be tested and I think it will show us a lot about if he's capable of the full time job.
We've had great success with a 442 diamond formation with the forwards playing wide, and the top of the diamond being able to switch off with them. It worked in the first half against PSG but once Martial and Lingard came out we struggled. Mata and Sanchez both struggled once coming on.
Sanchez looks cooked, and I wouldn't want him anywhere near the field. If I were Ole I'd sacrifice the benefit of having players being able to switch to control the midfield a little better. What I'm thinking is Fred comes in and you move Pogba to the top of the diamond, but we'll see.
What about Lukaku? What a slide into Bolivian. It doesn’t seem like he fits in this team, al all.
Nah he does, it’s just that Martial and Rashford are better options for the wide forward positions. I actually wanted to see him a lot earlier in the PSG game because we had no aerial presence late in the game.
He’s played well in the right sided forward role for us before, and he’s so streaky. I still have hope for him.
United best Chelsea 2-0. Solskjaer becomes the first manager since Ferguson to win away a the Bridge.
The diamond works again. Pogba and Herrera were fantastic.
Not that I think he had great prospects at this point anyway, but the better United do the harder the time Jose will have finding another class managing gig.
For months he said the squad wasn't good enough. Maybe it isn't to win the league, but its good enough to make up 11 points in 6 weeks. It's good enough to beat Tottenham, Arsenal, and Chelsea all away from home.
The most damaging part is who is performing. Pogba goes from being benched to the best player in the league over this stretch.
There's an interesting argument going on in /r/soccer (Reddit) about whether a manager should adapt to world-class players when they're available. Emery's use of Ozil and Sarri's employment of Kante are good examples. On the flip side, it's clear that in addition to poor usage, many players are switching off for certain managers. Chelsea is becoming notorious for this. I have to think at some point there's a toxicity that gets attached to players that clearly underperform if circumstances aren't to their concept of perfection. Hazard has to be getting close to that line- regardless of his irrefutable talent, if he can poison an entire side when he's unhappy is he worth the risk?
That said, I think Mourinho is just an arrogant asshole. I never enjoyed his bullshit. It rang too much of the modern-day NFL where individuals off the field became more important than the folks on it. Good riddance.
Its a good discussion. I don't know...I didn't play the game at a high enough level to develop a role and stick to it. On the flip side of the manager argument, should good players be able to adapt their game to a manager's playing style? I say yes...but of course there is a grey area and their needs to be reasonable expectations.
Kante is a good example, right? Why would you ever change his role from anything other than a midfielder who sits in front of the back four? He's arguably the best in the world at it.
I think ultimately it falls on the manager. If players can't adapt to your system, you need to ship them out and find players who can. Like even in his prime, would somebody like Zlatan have interested Klopp? I'm not sure.
Mourinho buys a lot of players, and a lot of times it didn't work out (Funny enough, his biggest transfer success ever was probably fleecing Guardiola for Eto'o). I think part of that is him trying to fit square pegs in round holes, and then his man management skills weren't the best. I never minded Jose (actually thought he was refreshing his first go around at Chelsea and of course Inter) but I just think the game has passed him by.
Maybe it deserves its own thread here, too. The problem is obviously not confined to the Premier League (See Madrid, Real).
At this level, players are specialists. Ederson is famously considered viable as an outfield player, but would that make any sense at all? Of course not. If an MLB manager came in and played their inherited Gold Glove center fielder at shortstop, who is responsible for the delta in production? That's what I see with Sarri's treatment of Kante. As a result, the players themselves don't buy in. Many behave like entitled children and the downward spiral ends with a managerial sacking and a squad renaissance. Significant credit has to go to United for pulling the plug when they did and recovering the season, though they couldn't have expected such spectacular results.
Now, when a manager comes into a situation, it's a different scenario than if the manager bought the player. Mourinho dropped hints that he didn't want Pogba, but I feel like that's his ego talking. To ignore how Conte, Allegri, and Dechamps nurtured Pogba's brilliance was criminal. Even as a Liverpool fan, I feel like we lost a year of watching one of the most gifted players of this generation to a massive ego.
I think Messi deserves a fair amount of discussion on the topic. Messi of course is the best player the sport has ever seen. Nevertheless, in order to keep him happy and get the most matches out of him, he is allowed to roam without a position and contribute nothing on defense. As such, any manager of a Messi squad necessarily must build around him. There's been times where even I get frustrated by this, but ultimately the best thing you can do with Messi is setup the team as if he isn't there and set them up as aggressively as possible (e.g. a 3-3-3). Of course, that's not possible or practical, but Barca basically setup in a 4-3-2 with Messi nominally on the RW, but he drifts centrally at his leisure. Watching Barca, you quickly come to appreciate the balance aspect of tactics--both attacking/defending and left/right. For years pundits lamented the fallow RW EVEN THOUGH Messi is supposed to be the RW. The argument was that after Alves departed, Messi didn't have anyone to combine with on the right. But that discounts the fact that Alba was pushing all the way to the opponents box on the left and there has almost always been a LW on the field too. Barca's worst years opened them up too much by throwing numbers forward without an appreciation for the counter.
Ultimately it is the players' job to play the games and win, and it is the manager's job to put those players in the best position to succeed. I think logically, it is simpler for a manager to adjust their tactics than for a player to adjust their playing style. It doesn't make sense to me for a team to invest in a player like Pogba, and then intentionally use him in a way that limits his effectiveness. Obviously you can't conform to every players' strength, but when it comes to star players, like Pogba or Messi, the goal should be to always put those guys in the best position for them to thrive, and then you can scheme and adjust your lineup accordingly to accommodate whatever deficiency the manager's system may develop by conforming to the star player.
Ozil’s lack of utility predates Emery. He hasn’t lived up to his top form for a couple of years now and it’s not the same case of being played OOP like Pogba etc (I agree that Sarri’s misuse of Kante is particularly criminal).