Locking Up the Killer B's

Van Everyman

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Just saw this in Pete Abraham's (excellent) feature on Xander:

But come the winter, Bogaerts would be willing to discuss a long-term contract if president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski is, too.

“I love the city. I love the people here and I love the coaching staff,” he said. “This is the only thing I know. We have a good core of young guys. I hope we stay together because we can do some special things.

“We’ll see what happens and where life takes me. If you put up good numbers and play the game the right way, good things will happen.”
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/07/11/stardom-hasn-changed-xander-bogaerts/KOCiiozea5FCqiFqmccp4L/story.html

According to MassLive:

Under their current rookie contracts, Bogaerts ($543,000) won't become a free agent until 2020 and Betts ($514,500) not until 2021.
http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2015/11/mookie_betts_xander_bogaerts_c.html

Spotrac.com has Xander earning $650,500 this year, Mookie earning $566K and JBJ earning $546K. Xander and JBJ are arb eligible next year while Mookie isn't until 2018.

Assuming Abraham is right, what kind of deal should DD offer? Do we want to lock X, Mookie and JBJ up? Or are the Killer B's more valuable to the Sox as cost-controlled youngsters?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I'd lock em all up for 6/7 years if at all possible. They're not going to be able to resign these three and (hopefully they warrant the concern) Moncada and Benintendi at market level deals when they hit FA. Stagger them all and hope for as much control as possible. Lock these guys up, do the same if/when the next two get to that point and then hopefully you can resign Betts and Bogaerts after that and let JBJ walk (he would be approaching tail end of his peak at that point). I don't pretend this is at all likely but let's dream.

How much is another story. I think JBJ would take more (same reason, he's older) and I'm not sure he deserves more. Trout just signed to buy out 3 arb and 3 FA years for 6/$145. Let's say these guys clock in at roughly 2/3 of that? I don't even know if that's fair but it feels somewhere in the ballpark. 6/$90? 6/100?
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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6/100 seems reasonable for the buy out years (JBJ and X) and 6/85 for Mookie.
After that expiration date, or approaching it, if they're all still performing at or close to the same level, JBJ is the one guy who you let walk... yup^.

I might even consider not offering JBJ that, knowing that we still have Moncada, AB, etc... that we'd (ideally) like to add in long term also, so you're going to have to lose one of these 3, very likely, in 3 years
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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I'd lock em all up for 6/7 years if at all possible. They're not going to be able to resign these three and (hopefully they warrant the concern) Moncada and Benintendi at market level deals when they hit FA. Stagger them all and hope for as much control as possible. Lock these guys up, do the same if/when the next two get to that point and then hopefully you can resign Betts and Bogaerts after that and let JBJ walk (he would be approaching tail end of his peak at that point). I don't pretend this is at all likely but let's dream.

How much is another story. I think JBJ would take more (same reason, he's older) and I'm not sure he deserves more. Trout just signed to buy out 3 arb and 3 FA years for 6/$145. Let's say these guys clock in at roughly 2/3 of that? I don't even know if that's fair but it feels somewhere in the ballpark. 6/$90? 6/100?
I actually think Bradley would take less. He's a Boras client, of course, but he's also tasted failure far more bitterly than either of the other two, and he's also the only one of the three to have started a family (whose financial security he can assure with one deal).

Of course, he's probably also the guy the team's most willing to go year-to-year. But if DDski locks him up for 5/65 he'd hit the market at age 32, which would allow Bradley to both provide for his parents and child(ren)'s future and also to anticipate another big payday.

If I were DDski, I'd definitely try to move on Bradley first, and if it works great. Whether or not Boras bites, then afterward approach Bogaerts and Betts...each of whom I feel are likely reject outright anything less than 6-7 years and $100-110MM because of their youth and ability to hit FA early in their peak years.
 

Toe Nash

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They could extend them all at market rate if they had to. By 2020 (Bogaerts' first FA year) they will only have Price, Sandoval, Pedroia and Castillo under contract. By 2021 it's just Price and Pedroia. If all 5 of the young stars play hardball and they all are worth it, the Sox could afford it.

Obviously you try to lock whoever you can in soon, but this is a rich team and the other options are chasing big-money FAs. I'm not really worried about this; in fact, I think I prefer to go year-to-year with JBJ because he has less of a consistent history of success and is older.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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They could extend them all at market rate if they had to. By 2020 (Bogaerts' first FA year) they will only have Price, Sandoval, Pedroia and Castillo under contract. By 2021 it's just Price and Pedroia. If all 5 of the young stars play hardball and they all are worth it, the Sox could afford it.
Castillo's contract won't be counted toward the luxury tax threshold, because he's off the 40-man.

Unless that policy changes in the next CBA...or he learns how to hit a breaking ball.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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It's going to be interesting to see how it goes. It might make sense for both parties for Bogaerts to do something like a 5-year deal; the Sox would buy out two years of FA and Xander could hit the market at 29. For Betts, though, I don't see how anything short of a 10+-year, Red-Sox-for-life kind of deal makes sense. If you sign him to 7 years, he's 31 when he hits the FA market, and that's a little too old. If you only sign him for 5 or 6, you don't buy out enough (or any) FA. I think if they want to lock Mookie up, they need to go long.
 

glennhoffmania

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Isn't it a little premature to be talking about committing $100m to Bradley? He looks great this year so far but that makes a total of exactly one half of a season that suggests he's worth that kind of deal. Also is he definitely arb eligible after this season?
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Isn't it a little premature to be talking about committing $100m to Bradley? He looks great this year so far but that makes a total of exactly one half of a season that suggests he's worth that kind of deal. Also is he definitely arb eligible after this season?
JBJ's not arb eligible until after 2017, same as Mookie.

That's one of big reasons I originally thought 5/$65MM would be a reasonable number. Though, realistically, the Castillo contract probably sets JBJ's floor at $75MM total. Much like Lester had no reason to even discuss an extension proposal offering $25MM less than the FA contract given to John Lackey, anything less than was given to Rusney will be a non-starter for JBJ (or Mookie).

Really, it's just the gift that keeps on giving.
 

glennhoffmania

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JBJ's not arb eligible until after 2017, same as Mookie.

That's one of big reasons I originally thought 5/$65MM would be a reasonable number. Though, realistically, the Castillo contract probably sets JBJ's floor at $75MM total. Much like Lester had no reason to even discuss an extension proposal offering $25MM less than the FA contract given to John Lackey, anything less than was given to Rusney will be a non-starter for JBJ (or Mookie).

Really, it's just the gift that keeps on giving.
That's what I thought, thanks. I was going by Van Everyman's post and it didn't sound right to me.

And 5/65m sounds much more reasonable given his performance and service time, but I agree that Castillo may have raised the floor.
 

rembrat

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But why should a clear mistake and overpay from the past regime factor into these contract negations?
 

gammoseditor

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You have Mookie and JBJ for 4 more years so 5 year deals make no sense. You only get 1 extra year of control and you guarantee a bunch of money. I think Xander would be at least 6 years at $120 million. Free agent contracts are up the last couple of years. You'd get 3 extra years of control for that contract. Unless Mookie is willing to sign something like 7/105 I don't think it's likely he's extended for at least a year.
 

Bowlerman9

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JBJ's not arb eligible until after 2017, same as Mookie.
This is not correct.

JBJ will have 2 years, 150 days of service time after this season. There is a 100% chance he is a super-2 and gets 4 years of arbitration.

Mookie will have 2 years, 70 days. He will make the minimum next year followed by 3 years of arbitration.
 

Bigpupp

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JBJ's not arb eligible until after 2017, same as Mookie.

That's one of big reasons I originally thought 5/$65MM would be a reasonable number. Though, realistically, the Castillo contract probably sets JBJ's floor at $75MM total. Much like Lester had no reason to even discuss an extension proposal offering $25MM less than the FA contract given to John Lackey, anything less than was given to Rusney will be a non-starter for JBJ (or Mookie).

Really, it's just the gift that keeps on giving.
JBJ came into the year with 1 year and 150 days of service time so he will be a super 2 player (last years cutoff was 140 days). He won't be a free agent until the same time as Mookie though.

Or what he said.
 

glennhoffmania

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This is not correct.

JBJ will have 2 years, 150 days of service time after this season. There is a 100% chance he is a super-2 and gets 4 years of arbitration.

Mookie will have 2 years, 70 days. He will make the minimum next year followed by 3 years of arbitration.
Thanks for clarifying. I was focusing on when he'd be eligible for FA as opposed to arb so I was half wrong.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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This is not correct.

JBJ will have 2 years, 150 days of service time after this season. There is a 100% chance he is a super-2 and gets 4 years of arbitration.

Mookie will have 2 years, 70 days. He will make the minimum next year followed by 3 years of arbitration.
Thanks for that correction. Having a 4th arbitration-eligible year makes trying to extend JBJ after the season even more appealing an option.

But why should a clear mistake and overpay from the past regime factor into these contract negations?
Really?

$72.5MM is the amount of money the same Red Sox owner was willing to pay out to the guy they brought in (now removed from the 40-man) to replace the guy they'd be negotiating to extend (now starting the All-Star game), and you're wondering why that number would be relevant?

If you don't trust me it's relevant, trust Jon Lester of the Chicago Cubs.
 

rembrat

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I actually forgot Scott Boras represents Jackie. So forget about looking at Rusney and his suck. Boras is going to use the last big contract given to a CF who could hit and play defense - old friend Jacoby Ellsbury.
 

rembrat

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Free agent contracts are not comparisons for extending players 4 years away from free agency.
He may not use it as a base but he'll definitely have that number in mind. Strasburg got 7 years $175MM which is just a bit shy of what Price and Scherzer got. I guess what I'm trying to say is that 5/65 is a pipe dream. I think we're looking at something closer to if not over $100MM.

EDIT: Here are extensions given to CF

Code:
Mike Trout 6/144.5MM - 2014
Adam Jones 6/85.5MM - 2012
Andrew McCutchen 6/51.5MM - 2012
Matt Kemp 8/160MM - 2011
Carlos Gonzalez 7/80MM - 2011
 
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Bowlerman9

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He may not use it as a base but he'll definitely have that number in mind. Strasburg got 7 years $175MM which is just a bit shy of what Price and Scherzer got. I guess what I'm trying to say is that 5/65 is a pipe dream. I think we're looking at something closer to if not over $100MM.

EDIT: Here are extensions given to CF

Code:
Mike Trout 6/144.5MM - 2014
Adam Jones 6/85.5MM - 2012
Andrew McCutchen 6/51.5MM - 2012
Matt Kemp 8/160MM - 2011
Carlos Gonzalez 7/80MM - 2011
These contracts are completely irrelevant when talking about a player 4 years from FA. You can "have a number in mind" but it doesnt mean anything at the negotiating table.

Bradley is looking at something like $4M, $7M, $11M, and $15M (ballpark) in pre-arb money. That's $37M if all goes well and its only guaranteed one year at a time. If he gets $4M next year and hits .220, he gets non-tendered and is playing for a million bucks the following season. Even 5/65 would be an overpay unless you think he's going to be worth significantly more than $28M in his first year of free agency.

Something like 5/50 would be appropriate, with fully guaranteed salaries of 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 with a team option for a 6th year. He takes a bit of a discount on his salaries for the next 4 years and a discount on his first year of free agency in exchange for having it fully guaranteed right now. He might be the next Andrew McCutchen but he could also be Allen Craig. There's no harm in taking the guaranteed money when it's available and trying to hit it big with your second contract.
 

nvalvo

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Isn't it a little premature to be talking about committing $100m to Bradley? He looks great this year so far but that makes a total of exactly one half of a season that suggests he's worth that kind of deal. Also is he definitely arb eligible after this season?
No? His NCAA and minor league track record did, in fact, happen. He was bad in 2014 at all levels; in 2013 he was bad in MLB, but pretty damn good in AAA. That, and the injury-plagued season at USC that caused him to slip to us, are the blips in a long career of excellence.

I'd offer him something based on the McCutchen extension: 6 years for 60-something, with a team option for seventh year at something like $16-18.
 

JBJ_HOF

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Sox offered 5/100 so 5+15+20+30+30 (age 25-29)

Trout got 6/144 or 6+16+20+34+34+34 (age 23-28)
 

soxhop411

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It's good to hear that the talks were still positive even though a deal was not reached
 

sean1562

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Because he knows he can make double when he hits FA. I'm sure with the natural arbitration payments he knows he will be set for life. I would be rolling the dice if I were him too. I feel as if these extension talks need to happen earlier to really make sense for the player. Do it with devers next year and benintendi this offseason
 

Otis Foster

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I assume he has loss of income coverage of some sort to address the risk of career-affecting/ending injuries. I have no idea what the underwriting considerations are for that coverage-maybe someone who works in that field can enlighten me/us.
 

sean1562

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The way he's been hitting I would think that he would jump at that deal
the fact that in the worst offensive season of his career he is still a 5 WAR player definitely contributes to his desire to get paid full market value in FA. These contract extensions need to have some risk for both sides. There is very little risk that Mookie will not be worth that extension. The Sox waited too long to get this kind of deal done with Mookie. Try and get Benintendi to sign an extension soon.
 

MikeM

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Earlier this year Mookie passed, but those first and hard hitting reminders that you aren't actually bullet proof can sometimes go a long way towards changing a young player's overall perception of the situation. Absolute devotion to what WAR says he's worth pushed aside, the value of current day Mookie Betts and whether that guy is worth huge money from a team perspective is pretty debatable atm/imo. $100m is a lot of money for a sub-800ops guy with 3 years left to be leaving on the table.

As far as I'm concerned Xander and Bradley really are not even in the extension discussion anymore. If DD falls short of serious playoff run again this season I'd expect one, if not both, to be traded over the upcoming winter before he entertains the thought of doubling down on this lineup core.
 

BaseballJones

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As far as I'm concerned Xander and Bradley really are not even in the extension discussion anymore. If DD falls short of serious playoff run again this season I'd expect one, if not both, to be traded over the upcoming winter before he entertains the thought of doubling down on this lineup core.
Then trade both, along with Groome and Porcello, to the Marlins for Stanton. Bring up Lin or try to sign Escobar or Cozart to play SS.

Porcello's contract at least, in part, offsets some of Stanton's.

Starters
C - Vazquez
1b - Travis
2b - Pedroia
3b - Devers
SS - Cozart/Escobar/Lin (obviously a huge difference in performance and $$ between Cozart and Lin)
LF - Stanton
CF - Benintendi
RF - Betts
DH - Hanley

Lineup
2b Pedroia
CF Benintendi
RF Betts
LF Stanton
3b Devers
DH Hanley
1b Travis
C Vazquez
SS Lin (let's say he's the guy)

Bounce back year from Hanley, more growth from Devers, Betts regaining his form especially with Stanton behind him, and a 50+ homer year from Giancarlo would make that lineup ferocious, even if it is a little weak at the back end.

Then your rotation is: Sale, Price, Fister (re-signed), Rodriguez, Pomeranz. Super solid.

Bullpen is basically the same, with the additions of Smith and Thornburg.

That's a really, really good team.
 

Al Zarilla

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Earlier this year Mookie passed, but those first and hard hitting reminders that you aren't actually bullet proof can sometimes go a long way towards changing a young player's overall perception of the situation. Absolute devotion to what WAR says he's worth pushed aside, the value of current day Mookie Betts and whether that guy is worth huge money from a team perspective is pretty debatable atm/imo. $100m is a lot of money for a sub-800ops guy with 3 years left to be leaving on the table.

As far as I'm concerned Xander and Bradley really are not even in the extension discussion anymore. If DD falls short of serious playoff run again this season I'd expect one, if not both, to be traded over the upcoming winter before he entertains the thought of doubling down on this lineup core.
Who would they be traded for? Other players that play their positions, so you, like, have a major league player for each of SS and CF? There aren't any stud SSs or CFs on the farm. Trades like that are also rare any more. Also, you'd be selling low on Xander. I think they hope for a relatively injury free season for X, and his getting his hitting stroke back. As for JBJ, how far off expections is he anyway? I'd be surprised if either were traded.
 

sean1562

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I dont think either of them will be or should be traded. But I do think we are way too far along with any of them to offer them extensions that will buy any years out. I think that has to be done much earlier, like after next season for Benintendi.

Also, while JBJ is a useful player, I do not think we should extend him past his current contract. Would anyone be interested in signing Lorenzo Cain this year to a long term deal? Over the last few years he has been much more valuable than JBJ has been, but I would not want to bet on his 30s either. Thank him for his time with the Sox, but make sure that Benintendi still knows how to play CF in a few years.

Also, if Jayson Heyward can sign an 8 year deal for $184 million in 2016, I imagine Mookie Betts will be able to see much more than that when he hits FA. I would be betting on myself if I were him as well, especially since he is the marquee star of one of the preeminent teams of the league. The longer he waits, the bigger his contract will be. Much more likely to get a huge deal after age 27 than after age 29 as well.
 

wnyghost

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Then trade both, along with Groome and Porcello, to the Marlins for Stanton. Bring up Lin or try to sign Escobar or Cozart to play SS.

Porcello's contract at least, in part, offsets some of Stanton's.

Starters
C - Vazquez
1b - Travis
2b - Pedroia
3b - Devers
SS - Cozart/Escobar/Lin (obviously a huge difference in performance and $$ between Cozart and Lin)
LF - Stanton
CF - Benintendi
RF - Betts
DH - Hanley

Lineup
2b Pedroia
CF Benintendi
RF Betts
LF Stanton
3b Devers
DH Hanley
1b Travis
C Vazquez
SS Lin (let's say he's the guy)

Bounce back year from Hanley, more growth from Devers, Betts regaining his form especially with Stanton behind him, and a 50+ homer year from Giancarlo would make that lineup ferocious, even if it is a little weak at the back end.

Then your rotation is: Sale, Price, Fister (re-signed), Rodriguez, Pomeranz. Super solid.

Bullpen is basically the same, with the additions of Smith and Thornburg.

That's a really, really good team.
I'm not sure about Hanley bouncing back, Pedroia's health, 2nd year Devers, Travis, Price health. Top it off with Stanton's health. Defense suffer?

Sounds scary.

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BaseballJones

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I'm not sure about Hanley bouncing back, Pedroia's health, 2nd year Devers, Travis, Price health. Top it off with Stanton's health. Defense suffer?

Sounds scary.

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Yep, some risks in there. When will there NOT be some risks? I mean...before coming to Boston, David Price was about as sure a bet as anyone in baseball to be good. Six previous seasons, all really, really good:

2.97 era, 3.05 fip, 130 era+, 1.11 whip, 8.7 k/9, 3x top 10 CYA (won 1 CYA), 5x AS

And then for the Sox last year:

2016: 3.99 era, 3.60 fip, 111 era+, 1.20 whip, 8.6 k/9

So even the most sure thing carries some risk. IF, and I am taking a big grain of salt "IF", the Sox are looking to deal Bradley and Bogaerts this offseason, I'd love for them to turn their eyes towards Stanton.

Unrealistic? Almost certainly.
 

wnyghost

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Yep, some risks in there. When will there NOT be some risks? I mean...before coming to Boston, David Price was about as sure a bet as anyone in baseball to be good. Six previous seasons, all really, really good:

2.97 era, 3.05 fip, 130 era+, 1.11 whip, 8.7 k/9, 3x top 10 CYA (won 1 CYA), 5x AS

And then for the Sox last year:

2016: 3.99 era, 3.60 fip, 111 era+, 1.20 whip, 8.6 k/9

So even the most sure thing carries some risk. IF, and I am taking a big grain of salt "IF", the Sox are looking to deal Bradley and Bogaerts this offseason, I'd love for them to turn their eyes towards Stanton.

Unrealistic? Almost certainly.
Too much money for too long on Price and Stanton.... not mine but I've been priced out of Fenway for some time.

I'd love to see him on the Sox though..

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Philip Jeff Frye

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Saw the thread title and assumed people were arguing that these guys should be locked in a basement somewhere so they'd stop killing of our offense.

 

Dewey'sCannon

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I had been thinking for several weeks about whether they might try to make a deal for Stanton built around JBJ (moving Beni to CF). And in the last few days, I thought that I might even be willing to include X to make the deal happen, and maybe bring back Nunez to play SS. I hadn't thought about including Porcello to help make the money work for us, but that might make it less attractive to the Marlins, for whom salary relief would seem to be the primary motivation. But I would not include Groome - maybe another A ball pitcher, but not him.

Highly unlikely to happen, but I'll bet they'll be some internal discussions and some explorations with the Marlins come the offseason - even more likely if the Sox offense fizzles out in the postseason.
 

MikeM

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Who would they be traded for?
If the team signed JD Martinez as a FA for example, and felt good enough about the massive offensive upgrade in the OF where they didn't care as much about the downgrade of offensive upside at SS? Hopefully young and cost controlled pitching reinforcements, which as I've pointed out in the past is probably going to be the hardest piece of the puzzle for us to solve over the next couple of off-seasons as we plan our transition beyond the Chris Sale window.

Although Baseballjone's Stanton scenario at it's core (i don't think it's Porcello's contract they'd need to be eating) ultimately isn't as far fetched as some would make it out to be atm/imo. If the Marlins got serious about the realities that likely have to go into moving that contract, I'd expect DD to be one of the big players there. If/when this team falls on it's face in the playoffs again Stanton is just too good of a potential re-brand piece for DD to take a complete pass on if the Marlins were willing to make the $$$ work better on our end.
 
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Sampo Gida

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Not sure I want to lock up any of the B's now unless they agree to a Longoria type extension. JBJ's inconsistency and XB's lack of power have me lukewarm about any significant deal. Of course if the experts project something better down the road then perhaps.

Benny Biceps and Bouncy Betts are probably the most likely extension candidates IMO. I think both team and players would prefer another 1-2 years of data to assess future value. Betts probably wants another repeat of 2016 before entertaining any offers and Benny has yet to have a break out year it being his rookie season.

As of the moment none of the above are looking like an elite (top 10) offensive player. All are young and will develop more so this could change.

I do sometimes worry about the effect of long term extensions on young players development. Keeping them hungry and playing for that contract seems to have some benefits although this is entirely my opinion and I havent really seen any studies on the subject one way or another. I sometimes wonder how Longoria would have developed without the early extension. Never really lived up to expectations even though he was very good. Maybe expectations were too high. Dudnt seem to help Salvador Perez either. Of course, there are others who suffer no ill effect
 

NDame616

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I had been thinking for several weeks about whether they might try to make a deal for Stanton built around JBJ (moving Beni to CF). And in the last few days, I thought that I might even be willing to include X to make the deal happen, and maybe bring back Nunez to play SS. I hadn't thought about including Porcello to help make the money work for us, but that might make it less attractive to the Marlins, for whom salary relief would seem to be the primary motivation. But I would not include Groome - maybe another A ball pitcher, but not him.

Highly unlikely to happen, but I'll bet they'll be some internal discussions and some explorations with the Marlins come the offseason - even more likely if the Sox offense fizzles out in the postseason.
Wait.....a deal for on of the best hitters in baseball and you're willing to center it around JBJ *and* you might be able to add Xander? I mean, we could add Brock Holt as well, maybe even Abad, but I'm not sure how much you REALLY want to give up.
 

sean1562

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JBJ is not all that valuable to other teams. He is a solid CF entering his late 20s who is in the top 10 of defensive CFs league wide, but why would the Marlins have any interest in him? Christian Yelich is already better than him and much younger. Any Stanton trade with the Marlins starts with Groome or Devers. At the very least would be Groome and Chavis plus someone like Mata.
 

nvalvo

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Wait.....a deal for on of the best hitters in baseball and you're willing to center it around JBJ *and* you might be able to add Xander? I mean, we could add Brock Holt as well, maybe even Abad, but I'm not sure how much you REALLY want to give up.
Remember, we're trading contracts here, not just players. And until his recent hot streak, it wasn't actually clear if Stanton's contract had any surplus value at all. Bradley's definitely does.

Bradley's 3 year fWARs, 2015-17, will be something like: 2.5, 5.0, 2.8 (projected). He was a super2, so he'll be in his second of four arb years, which will probably earn him a total of $20m through what we'd expect to be his prime seasons. Let's say 10 WAR, at $2m per. Great value there, something on the order of $50m in surplus value. (Of course, the details depend on the performances and the arb awards. If he gets arb awards on the low-end and posts 5 WAR seasons, it will be MUCH HIGHER.)

Stanton's 3 year fWARs will be 3.9, 1.8, 6.5 (projected). He's slated to earn $77m over the next three seasons, through what we'd expect to be his prime. If he's worth, say, 16 WAR over the next three seasons, that's still a good value, at $5m per WAR. Again, something like $50m in surplus value, but again, huge error bars on the performance side, given his track record.

But the problem with a Stanton contract is the opt-out.

*gasps of horror* *gong sounds*

After 2020, Stanton has an opt out, where he would have to decide if he wants to stick around for 8/$200-ish. If he posts a few more 5-7 WAR seasons, you'd be pleased to have him on that deal, even knowing that he will decline. But if he performs like that, he'll likely leave (or stay!) for something more like 8/$250 or 9/$300. If he doesn't post a few more 5-7 WAR seasons, he's likely hurt, and you've David Wrighted your whole roster for a decade. This is a player who has rarely stayed healthy for an entire season, even if the performance has been very good while he's been on the field.

So Bradley offers similar surplus value over the next three years to Stanton. Now, my view is that for a large market team, getting a ton of wins out of a single roster spot is worth a fair amount more than a straight surplus value calculation, so you'd give Stanton a considerable edge. But that edge is almost entirely negated by the very large downside risk of Stanton's contract over the years 2021-8.

Trading Bradley and Bogaerts for Stanton might well make the team worse. It may make sense in the short term, if we're thinking of the window under Sale's current deal, but the long term picture gets considerably riskier.
 

sean1562

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Sep 17, 2011
3,659
But why would the Marlins be looking for players who might marginally improve their team(and require Yelich to move to RF?) when what they need is pitching? If the Marlins decide to trade Stanton, I would imagine they would be looking for young cost controlled SP, not a SS and a CF that make their team just about as good with Stanton and would require them to move their budding star of a CF off his position? It just doesnt seem like the type of package the Marlins would be looking for at all.
 

MikeM

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May 27, 2010
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But why would the Marlins be looking for players who might marginally improve their team(and require Yelich to move to RF?) when what they need is pitching? If the Marlins decide to trade Stanton, I would imagine they would be looking for young cost controlled SP, not a SS and a CF that make their team just about as good with Stanton and would require them to move their budding star of a CF off his position? It just doesnt seem like the type of package the Marlins would be looking for at all.
You basically just answered that question yourself, in that leaving them feeling "just as good" without the massive long term weight of Stanton's contract hanging over their small market head is the hypothetical sell there. If the Marlins do decide to trade him it won't be at the risk of a package heavy on the pure prospect bust potential. That is what makes us a good potential fit there imo.

Although again, the real key to making it all work there is what they'd be willing to do to make Stanton's overall contract more appealing. Are they willing to go the same general route Texas did with A-Rod, with the potential chance they get let off the hook in a couple years if/when he opts out? Barring some creative deal that would ensure us enough upfront coverage that it lets us weasel our way under the LT cap over the next couple of seasons (which probably isn't going to happen even if we don't make a trade there), and then worry about latter latter, I'm left assuming JH wouldn't be signing off on Stanton's contract in full. Well, unless he's not projecting himself to be here 5+ years from now I guess.
 

MtPleasant Paul

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Dec 28, 2015
169
The first thing the new owners of the Marlins have to do is restore the faith of their fans who have mostly abandoned them after seeing their best players traded year after year. The last thing they should want to do is unload Stanton especially after his humongous year. Trading Stanton for prospects would make sense for most teams where they are in the standings, but not for Miami where it would be seen as business as usual.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
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Mar 11, 2008
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Any Stanton trade with the Marlins starts with Groome or Devers. At the very least would be Groome and Chavis plus someone like Mata.
If Groome, Chavis and Mata was within a mile of getting it done, Stanton would be in Boston already.

Add Benintendi to those three and the Marlins might not hang up immediately.